Back in the day I played a lot, before they put in GY an PoD summons and i never had a hard time getting a corpse back. Even when i had to pay for a summon. Even if i had to pay extra to get some necro from another zone to come help. I don't remember any of my friends having problems either or ever losing a corpse. (I did lose one due to a bug but a GM fixed that)
Please explain why you were unable to get your corpse in 7 days that made things so difficult. To me it sounds like people want a hand out, don't want risk, don't think that planning a group or raid matters. It's all about risk vs reward. If you want to press a dungeon beyond your groups ability why should you get an easy option out by just running to the GY. This should be a pain in the ass....or just pay a necro or sk to summon your corpse and be done. I don't see how spending 1hr finding a necro/sk is so hard.
If they put GY in game I will regret ever pledging. Wonder if they will refund my money cause they bow down to people who want everything handed to them on a platter.
I hope they tell people that CR sucks and maybe you should go play a easier mmo.....
Gorrax said:Back in the day I played a lot, before they put in GY an PoD summons and i never had a hard time getting a corpse back. Even when i had to pay for a summon. Even if i had to pay extra to get some necro from another zone to come help. I don't remember any of my friends having problems either or ever losing a corpse. (I did lose one due to a bug but a GM fixed that)
Please explain why you were unable to get your corpse in 7 days that made things so difficult. To me it sounds like people want a hand out, don't want risk, don't think that planning a group or raid matters. It's all about risk vs reward. If you want to press a dungeon beyond your groups ability why should you get an easy option out by just running to the GY. This should be a pain in the ass....or just pay a necro or sk to summon your corpse and be done. I don't see how spending 1hr finding a necro/sk is so hard.
If they put GY in game I will regret ever pledging. Wonder if they will refund my money cause they bow down to people who want everything handed to them on a platter.
I hope they tell people that CR sucks and maybe you should go play a easier mmo.....
I think most people agree with you, the one catch seems to be permanent equipment loss. Many of us are suggesting an alternative to just *poof*, but rather if you absolutely cannot get your equipment in the time alotted, you can wait it out and retrieve it via a local GY or something.
You would still have the xp penatly, you would still have the inconvienence of not having your best gear (not all of us have 2 sets of awesome gear, my back up was a hodge podge of stuff).
I would even be OK that if it came to a timeout retrieval, that there is an extra penalty tacked on. Make it so that doing the CR is the most sought after choice.
Having gone back and looked at some of the stuff the TLP servers did (or perhaps to say, some of the "concessions" made in EQ to make it marginally more accessible), I have to admit I find it significantly more enjoyable not having to run back without gear. I am fine with corpse runs for the sake of getting exp back or or for rezzing, but at least with gear I have a small chance to fight or at least run from anything that might try to eat me on my CR.
I also thought the graveyard system was perfectly fine in PoP for that matter - I literally never once said "damn, I miss that lengthy corpse run..."
Just seems a little harsh to penalize a player potentially 3+ different ways because of one death (CR, exp loss, and wasted time on Rez/Corpse summon, risk of item loss, not to mention the possibility of more deaths due to lack of gear). Pick one or two methods and tweak from there.
Tralyan said:TheCleric said:I am kind of amazed at how many people are for stiff death penalties. I feel these are the mechanisms I enjoyed least about the best game I have ever played.
I am fine with some exp loss (10% is more than enough if leveling is as slow as EQ was). But things like de-leveling, 50% exp loss, and corpse runs just equate to excessive wasted resources and less time enjoying the core of the game. 5 less hours of corpse runs and re-leveling is 5 more hours doing something innately more valuable, be it in-game or with family.
Just some food for thought - in the 17 years since EQ launched, nearly every person who has played since release is now in their 20's, 30's, or older. Surely I am not the only person who have grown over the last 17 years - developed a family, relationships, etc?
I realize this is bucking the view of many staunch supporters clearly more pain-tolerant than I, and bordering on off-topic to boot. I am merely advocating that the the death penalty evolve with the crowd that originally supported the game.
We have evolved since 1999, right?
I take your food for thought, and offer you the entree.
Yes, WE are now in our 20's, 30's (and let's be honest, 40's, 50's, and higher), and we have jobs and families and we don't have the time to invest in an MMO that we did when we were pizza faced awkward nerds getting pushed into lockers. This is true. But we are also not the future of MMO's. We're the old crotchety group standing on the lawn telling all the whippersnappers how it used to be, and how good it once was, and how their MMO lives are so much easier and less fulfilling than ours once were. Would we then want to take from them the chance to live through those good times? Would we want to sit here and talk about the golden years, and then when those golden years are offered back to not only us, but also to the next generation of gangly nerds that can't find a date on saturday night, we then use our lack of playtime and our lack of availability to take that away?
This isn't about just us old EQ and Vanguard nerds. This is also about the nerds that have never been given the chance to be in the glory days of MMO's. I for one feel it is selfish to force a game to cater to one group of folks just because they have jobs and responsibilites. There are already plenty of those games out there. This is something new, taken from the old, for all folks to enjoy. Not just us.
I've never quite understood that argument, frankly. Not that I don't agree with the fact that I won't have as much time to put into it. I certainly do. I just don't agree with that being a reason for making a game "easier". So I won't be able to level as fast as the younger crowd because I'll be working 60 hour weeks and dealing with my little brats at home. So what? When I DO get on, I want it to be brutal, and punishing, and to make every tiny little advancement I make feel as fulfilling as reaching end game on any other MMO out there.
It's not just that I want obnoxious corpse runs and harsh penalties. I also want little timmy to skip class and ignore his friends because he has to get his corpse before it decays, too. I want little Timmy to know what it feels like to want to throw his keyboard at the wall. Hell, if I could, I'd force little Timmy to get on Dial-up, too.
You're going down, little Timmy.
-Tralyan
Nailed it.
And shame on those who claim wanting a harsher death penalty is merely nostalgia. That is a non-argument. Its an insult and relegating the opinions of others to mere feelings after the reasoning for harsh death penalties have been explained both mechanically and philosophically in this very thread. Don't be lazy, go read.
Harsh death penalties keep devs true, in that they won't make content over the top because they know the impact it will have upon the player base, if there is a harsh penalty you tend to see more mechanics that actually have a purpose rather than just to punish in dungeons / raids.
I welcome any death penalty that makes me think about what I'm doing, however make sure people don't fall into the rut of wanting to leave dungeons or not try things at all because they are too afraid. I feel experience loss or experience debts are good, de-leveling is fine but I'd say maybe let people keep their gear upon death or regain their gear at a local grave yard say 24 hours later with perhaps a gold fee to say pay the npc that found your gear and brought it back (that is of corse if you do not recover your tombstone). That means for 24 hours if you don't have a second set of gear you will need to wait a bit or start working on that second set, and it may be an idea that only one set of gear can be recovered from the grave yard.
I never understood the argument that we were all young then and had all this time to do corpse runs. We've evolved. Well, I was in my 30s during EQ and I would never have changed their death penalty then and wouldn't now. As for evolvling. Yeah, I'm nore patient, more persistent, more resillient, and able to handle tougher tasks than I was when 20. For that matter I'm probably better able to handle more frustration or challenging tasks than those wimpy 20 year olds. So why would I want it easier?
Jade inlaid coffins were 291plat that is way more then most of you all are saying you want to pay for a summon. Find a sk or necro and become their slave cause if you don't plan your group/raid you're going to be paying out the ass.
Graveyards suck ass. If you can't find friends or guildies to get your corpse on some lame deep dive you did into a unforgiving dungeon you deserve to lose everything!
Best idea is to not play this game cause, I hope, they tell you to pound sand....
Gorrax said:Jade inlaid coffins were 291plat that is way more then most of you all are saying you want to pay for a summon. Find a sk or necro and become their slave cause if you don't plan your group/raid you're going to be paying out the ass.
Graveyards suck ass. If you can't find friends or guildies to get your corpse on some lame deep dive you did into a unforgiving dungeon you deserve to lose everything!
Best idea is to not play this game cause, I hope, they tell you to pound sand....
This 100%.
Yet another great way to promote community (some classes being able to summon corpse) dashed to the rocks by "modern" no teeth mmos...
I welcome a death penalty of some sort. Something that makes you actually care that you died but I also don't want to ragequit the game because I can't get my stuff back somehow.
Too many games I've been playing lately you die and you don't even care... Ooh a couple minutes of weakness and a tiny equpment repair bill who cares.
Make death matter!
I thought the death penalty in Everquest was well balanced. Something along the lines of a 96% rez from a cleric, 90% from a pally. This provided a little sting to dying, but certainly nothing devastating.
Corpse runs were actually some of the most intense and thereby rewarding game experiences in Everquest. I used to play on the Sullon Zek team PvP server and having to go back to a zone or dungeon without your gear was challenging and exciting. The potential for a group wipe really made you and your groupmates pay attention to their surroundings and the pace at which mobs were pulled and how deep into the dungeon you felt comfortable going.
Without danger and risk there cannot really ever be a sense of acomplishment and reward.
Trustar said:Without danger and risk there cannot really ever be a sense of acomplishment and reward.
This pretty much sums it up for me. If you want to feel the really big highs when you achieve something you also need to feel the really big lows when you don't achieve something.
Make the death penalty really hurt so that when you do finally get it right and don't die you will have achieved something special.
Trustar said:I thought the death penalty in Everquest was well balanced. Something along the lines of a 96% rez from a cleric, 90% from a pally. This provided a little sting to dying, but certainly nothing devastating.
Corpse runs were actually some of the most intense and thereby rewarding game experiences in Everquest. I used to play on the Sullon Zek team PvP server and having to go back to a zone or dungeon without your gear was challenging and exciting. The potential for a group wipe really made you and your groupmates pay attention to their surroundings and the pace at which mobs were pulled and how deep into the dungeon you felt comfortable going.
Without danger and risk there cannot really ever be a sense of acomplishment and reward.
QFT
If you want the game to last a while, corpse run is a good way to slow down players progress. I would add a graveyard system where after 24hours you can recover your corpse with no xp back if you decide to not return for it and a summon corpse system in town with a -50% xp debuff that last 24 hours if you are eager to get your corpse back and don't want to corpse run.
Cromulent said:Make the death penalty really hurt so that when you do finally get it right and don't die you will have achieved something special.
XP loss on death - 1% times X, where X = your level. Die at level 50? 50% XP gone!
No XP rez available in game. No corpse summons.
Item left on corpse upon death. Mobs passing by your corpse all loot 1 of your items starting with your bags and ending with your equiped gear, longer you take to get back the more you lose. To get them back kill the mobs that have them. Someone else killed them? They just took your stuff.
^ Recipe for the hardcore server :D
Enitzu said:Cromulent said:Make the death penalty really hurt so that when you do finally get it right and don't die you will have achieved something special.
XP loss on death - 1% times X, where X = your level. Die at level 50? 50% XP gone!
No XP rez available in game. No corpse summons.
Item left on corpse upon death. Mobs passing by your corpse all loot 1 of your items starting with your bags and ending with your equiped gear, longer you take to get back the more you lose. To get them back kill the mobs that have them. Someone else killed them? They just took your stuff.
^ Recipe for the hardcore server :D
I've already posted in this thread about a hardcore server I'd like but the devs have said (I believe) that they won't be doing any alternative rule set servers such as hardcore servers so that is out of the question.
But if you want to know more about it see here:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=2841
Now that was a hardcore server.
Same as EQ: you die, you pop at your bind, and deal from there, Stuff, coin and bags, on Corpse, No Graveyards. Same rules apply to No rent- living with no rent, fine, die with no rent? you log, it poofs on your corpse.
However, Make a 7 day or 2 week Real time, in game timer on corpse poofing. What I mean is:
7 days real time in game should be enough- I just fear some may use that advantage for dead mules. Like, you log in for 10minutes, thats 10 minutes off the 7 day corpse rot counter. You come back a month later- you still have 7 days less 10 minutes before corpse rots. Somehting like that
So... people want a graveyard. Where they can pay a steep price for their corpse. Something they can do from a more accessable location.
But why is it necessary to make it an NPC driven method? IMO Let's combine existing ideas.
Necromancer's are practitioners of the dark arts yea? So a necro spell, requiring a coffin and a character-specific reagent, themselves as a sacrefice (think soulshards from necro sacrefice, but to make it a player-sacrefice instead would make it so the players cannot stockpile soulshards when maxed on exp). Possibly consider both corpses are too tainted for exp resurrections?
So in this scenario you have died, and decide either your corpse is far too difficult to even attempt retrieving, or you are in that very rare situation of dying before potentially leaving the game for an extended period (vacation etc) and want to throw an extra exp loss and money (for the coffin, and necro PLAYER services) at the game to ensure your gear does not rot while away.
This encourages you to try the other avenues first. Which is what we all want, whether or not we admit it. We want the other path to be so undesired that the first option of sticking it out, and helping our other group-mates get our corpses back before bailing for the night, is the ideal situation.
IMO this is a win/win. People who honestly feel they do not have the time to retrieve their corpse, but fear losing their gear, can eat the exp/money loss.
I've been mulling this over a bit. The EQ death penalty was good in that it made the world exciting and scary for me. Made me want to try harder [read: respect the world and my classes, their abilities and limits (druid and pally)]. Given, I did have a lot of time to play back then, so the exp loss wasn't more than a mild annoyance. Delevelling was more annoying, but those things added to the "I don't want to die!" aspect and made me work harder at not dying. Since time was not too much of a scarce resource for me, the danger of losing my stuff was responsible for me fearing the world. I actually liked that - not in a masochistic way, but because of the added depth and excitement. I wouldn't mind having that in Pantheon, too.
However, CRs that last for 6 hours or more is too much (total raid wipes or falling down into a really deep part of a dungeon because of lag, a mistake or not yet knowing the place). A 2-3 hour one is fine. This is from my present perspective: I don't have as much time to play now as I used to. I don't mind the threat of losing gear, because that's workable. However, a 7 day waiting period until it poofs is too short (business trips, vacations, sudden illness etc.). Personally, I'm aiming to trek to the Everest Base Camp in Nepal at some point (my bad knee permitting), which is a 19-20 day thing, acclimatization included. If my toon dies just before I go and I can't do a CR, I'm screwed. It would not only ruin my game, but my trip as well.
That said, I'm thinking that scaling the threat down a bit might also be a good thing. I'm thinking that, like other have suggested, your inventory + an item or two of your gear (not the weapon - thinking about warriors) would stay on the corpse, which would not poof. I don't want a GY or similar, but rather be dependent on other players to either go get the corpse with me or have someone summon it. To me, it wouldn't be an annoyance, but rather a scaled down fear, which is good. And also interdependence demanding collaboration and creativity from the player.
The more we players must come up with solutions and strategies, rather than the game providing automated resolutions, the better, imo, because that is what makes the world come alive and gives us the feeling we're contributing and investing in our characters and the game. From our point of view, the game becomes our home and we want to be in it for the long haul, which, of course, is also good from VR's business point of view.
I'm certainly all for a penalty to making bad decisions in Pantheon. The world should feel unforgiving, dangerous, and downright terrifying.
Remember your first time in a dungeon? First time seeing /ooc "TRAIN TO ZONE" and you watch in terror as people get absolutely run over?
There should be consequence for unpreparedness. Loss of exp, maybe weakness debuff for awhile.
I thought the EQ model on that was definitely good. Bring the resurrection back to give those classes utility and value (Necro Summon, Rogue/Monk corpsedrag across zone, Cleric Rez... etc.)
Just my two cents...
But then again I'm an old timer on the porch hollerin' at these young kids that have no idea how rough it was back in the day! :D
Cromulent said:Enitzu said:Cromulent said:Make the death penalty really hurt so that when you do finally get it right and don't die you will have achieved something special.
XP loss on death - 1% times X, where X = your level. Die at level 50? 50% XP gone!
No XP rez available in game. No corpse summons.
Item left on corpse upon death. Mobs passing by your corpse all loot 1 of your items starting with your bags and ending with your equiped gear, longer you take to get back the more you lose. To get them back kill the mobs that have them. Someone else killed them? They just took your stuff.
^ Recipe for the hardcore server :D
I've already posted in this thread about a hardcore server I'd like but the devs have said (I believe) that they won't be doing any alternative rule set servers such as hardcore servers so that is out of the question.
But if you want to know more about it see here:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=2841
Now that was a hardcore server.
Actually, the devs never said that. On the contrary, they've confirmed they will have various alternate rulesets, but cannot commit to how many or which ones until closer to launch.
The death penalty has to hurt, it has to kick you in the nuts, it has to make you think about your decisions. Personally i think EQ had it spot on with xp loss, possible level loss, corpse run and possible corpse decay. If i had to choose between xp loss and corpse run i would choose corpse run. It was the corpse run that i feared the most, a chance to actually lose stuff. XP could be got back, quite fast in fact with a rezz and a good group.
It's nasty but I think the death penalty has to be severe.
XP loss: Needs to be severe or you just don't get excited about survival (debt is good - I like to know where I got to)
Corpse/Soul retrieval: Corpse retrieval should repair a lot of XP debt otherwise people won't do it (but that means the initial XP debt should be significant)
Item loss: It's nasty but it really adds to the importance of death. I think something could be done with soulbound items not staying on corpse and perhaps you enchant items to be soulbound. Some items (keys/cash/etc) would never be soulbound so if you take a key into a dungeon and die at the door, you have to get back there!
Reviving/Resurection: I think this should have to be pretty near your corpse. Dread of getting deeper and deeper into a dangerous area is a good thing!
Graveyards: I think there should be a 'fallback' but it has to be harsh if you resort to it. If you really can't get your corpse then you pay through the nose for a priest to summon your soul to the graveyard. No XP repaired. Want your items too? Pay even more and wait a day for the corpse retrieval service.
Community: Yes some kind of necromancer that can summon a visible corpse. Yes a cleric that can resurrect. Yes other players can drag your corpse. Done right, those things would be great fun and add to the cooperative community game we want.
Some of my best (?) memories of EQ involved heroic death and corpse runs. Like many of the 'traditional/hardcore' aspects of EQ, as long as you avoid the painful/boring side of it with a few mod-cons then it's a wonderful addition to the experience.
Noone wants to lose levels and favourite items to corpse decay while waiting for a GM to help because a bug caused your repeated death where a Necromancer couldn't target your corspes, but death and what happens next *can* be a great part of the game.
Well, I just got on and started reading through this thread. To be honest I only read a couple of pages before I was going cross-eyed. I'll just throw my thoughts out. This will be long since I want to provide examples as well.
My personal opinion is that Soloing XP loss should be greater than XP loss for members of a full group. If you are the type that likes soloing I’m sure you won’t like me much (my own brother would be one of you) but my basic philosophy has always been that these types of games were specifically oriented towards grouping. By working together towards a common goal you should gain some immediate advantage. I also think that a time component should be included that increases the loss of XP but some percentage as an additional penalty for not proactively recovering from the death (i.e. waiting for the corpse to return to a graveyard).
Various calculations depending on scenario
Death penalties should be progressively worse as you gain levels (Death effects that reduce skills/stats for a period of time and each time you die the death effects become worse even after resurrection but recover over time, possible increased percentage XP loss, damage to equipment that reduces effectiveness for some period of time unless you pay to recover, etc) and wander into much more difficult encounters/dungeons/raids. The more you invest the more you have to lose. This also helps retain new members by allowing some leniency as they are learning the game. How that level penalty breakdown will be identified and played out is dependent upon the number of levels the game offers. If the first 10 levels are going to be free to capture the interest of new users I would think that levels 1 - 5 would incur a very small XP hit with no real risk of lost of gear or waiting period to recover corpses. Levels 6 - 10 would increase the penalty and possibly add in different options for dealing with corpse recovery. Regardless, those levels should have a sampling of what to expect with paid content but on a smaller impact scale.
Some calculation of the level of the player vs the level of the creature that kills him/her would be helpful. Nothing worse that trying to run across a zone you are not level-ready for and then dying to a creature that smooshed you like the annoying little gnat you are. In the event the level of the creature that killed you was significantly above your capability to combat there should be some way to take a base XP loss, return to “a” bind point and have your corpse arrive at a graveyard in a shorter timeframe like 15 or 30 minutes (there still needs to be some pain for stupidity).
After the initial 10 levels and moving into traditional paid content there should still be a scaled impact of some sort.
Regardless, I think that there should be some pain and penalty and the individual gets to decide how much they are willing to endure. If they want less they will be more fastidious about paying closer attention to their surroundings, grouping with a well rounded group, and not being cavelier about their approach to combat.
[Edit: Lost some formatting so added some text]
Cheers.
