This is a tough topic for me.
While I love the old EQ fear of death, I hated having to find people to help my group get back to a camp just to get our corpses in a dungeon. Dying and losing all items made you completely useless. If you didn't have all that back up gear in the bank (and bound near a bank) then you could pretty much forget trying to get your body back alone. So with that being said here's my list of what I would like to see for death.
~Sizeable xp loss. Say 10% or so. If you delvl then you delvl. There's a reason everyone at end game sat at 99.9% xp.
~Items remain with you. Money does not. You need some reason to go back to the body after all.
~Clerics have their usual rezs with shamans/druids having half of a clerics. Even if that means from lvl 10ish to 40ish shaman/druid rez gives 0% xp back they are able to rez the cleric instead of clearing hours through a dungeon to recover them.
~GY's should be there but bodies should not spawn there for 5-6 hours. If you want to continue playing then you need to get back to your corpse. This shouldn't be something that is a go to. But losing everything you have would be insta rage quit for most people. Necro summons very late game I would be ok with as well. Corpse dragging should obviously be in too.
The fear of death should be there. Making it near impossible to get your stuff back should not. The ways things are shaping up here, we will be carrying most, if not all, of our gear on us at all times. Due to things being used in different situations. Having all of that on you rather than in a bank somewhere and still losing items on death would make it dam near impossible. Though it would give rise to merc guilds that could make a fortune on corpse recoveries lol.
My first, definitive experience with the death penalty in EQ1 came at the hands of the lag monster while deep in Blackburrow. The game's servers hiccupped for about 30 seconds and the last thing I remembered seeing were about 10 gnolls right in front of my character. Server straightened up and BAM I was dead and zoning back into Everfrost. I had NO idea other than "bottom of the dungeon" as to where my corpse might have ended up. The group I was with decided NOT to get their corpses back and I tried for an hour to enlist the aid of others to go down into the dungeon to recover my corpse (and to make some xp/cash for the new group, as well). No one wanted to do it.
Yeah, I lost my stuff. Yes, I lost time/xp. Yes, I was pissed about dieing due to shitty servers. Was it fun? Sort of...I had fun up until that point, to be sure. I would have loved to have been able to reclaim my gear/coin/etc with ZERO XP recovery in 24 hours at some temple, but I couldn't. What I did do was make sure the groups I got into from that point on understood that we were committing to XX number of hours playtime and, if you couldn't do that, then too bad. As I got higher in levels and my gear was more prescious to me, this only became more of an issue.
Today I would have to say that EQ1 death mechanics are good, but they need to be expanded upon to allow for those kind of situations. Make it sting, certainly...I think xp loss, level loss, corpse runs should definitely be in, but there needs to be another method in recovering your corpse. I don't want to be at the bottom of a dungeon and wipe, only to have two players in the group say they can't do the corpse run. We don't put another group together and then I have to try again the next play session. Give me options...make them hurt...but give me options. Surely the VR team can do that in such a way that doesn't allow for exploits, such as "free ride to town" kinda thing.
Not long before Velious was released where my guild usually did a raid on a Saturday and a Sunday I had to go away for the weekend.
I logged on to the game about 7pm on the Sunday evening to find that the guild officers had decided to run a Plane of Fear raid even though I was away - quite rightly so as my absence was no reason not to do so.
When I logged in I was about 85% of the way through level 59.
Unfortunately the raid had wiped in PoF so I was immediately requested to help with a corpse run. Obviously I was more than happy to do so.
The specific details of what happened aren't really relevant - but lets say the corpse run was "difficult" and "not immediately successful".
By the time I logged that night xp wise I was a fraction off dinging level 58!
I was a little fustrated at the time, however would I do the same thing again? Hell yes!
Do I think the xp loss and need to get corpses back were right? Hell yes!
ChrisCwmbran said:Not long before Velious was released where my guild usually did a raid on a Saturday and a Sunday I had to go away for the weekend.
I logged on to the game about 7pm on the Sunday evening to find that the guild officers had decided to run a Plane of Fear raid even though I was away - quite rightly so as my absence was no reason not to do so.
When I logged in I was about 85% of the way through level 59.
Unfortunately the raid had wiped in PoF so I was immediately requested to help with a corpse run. Obviously I was more than happy to do so.
The specific details of what happened aren't really relevant - but lets say the corpse run was "difficult" and "not immediately successful".
By the time I logged that night xp wise I was a fraction off dinging level 58!
I was a little fustrated at the time, however would I do the same thing again? Hell yes!
Do I think the xp loss and need to get corpses back were right? Hell yes!
I feel ya.
In fact I'm sure there are planty of us on here that this has happened to and would of course do it again if called upon.
I'm all about the original EQ death penalty. There should be lost exp, you should be able to de-level, you should lose your gear, you should be bound at a major city, your equipment should lose durability, and you're corpse should rot after X amount of time.
The only difference I think is there should be a way to summon your corpse to a graveyard within X amount of distance from the place of death after X amount of time.
I don't think there should be a graveyard in every zone. There should be a graveyard per region or close town or camp so not only do you have to get to the graveyard, but you then have to get back to where you were. Graveyards aren't found in the middle of nowhere. They are in populated areas.
Of course summon corpse should still exist like Necros and SK in EQ.
cpoluk said:I'm all about the original EQ death penalty. There should be lost exp, you should be able to de-level, you should lose your gear, you should be bound at a major city, your equipment should lose durability, and you're corpse should rot after X amount of time.
The only difference I think is there should be a way to summon your corpse to a graveyard within X amount of distance from the place of death after X amount of time.
I don't think there should be a graveyard in every zone. There should be a graveyard per region or close town or camp so not only do you have to get to the graveyard, but you then have to get back to where you were. Graveyards aren't found in the middle of nowhere. They are in populated areas.
Of course summon corpse should still exist like Necros and SK in EQ.
I agree. Definitely should have to return to an area fairly close to where you died to use a "graveyard." The one thing I'll say about summoning your corpse from a shrine or graveyard would be that you must wait X amount of time. I would say at least 24 hours, if not longer. The only other option I can think of would be a system where the penalty for summoning your corpse would scale from exponentially more expensive to a slightly more reasonable (but still effective) cost. Say the second you die at level 20, the cost is something like several thousand platinum. Two hours later, a thousand platinum. 12 hours go by, 500 platinum. After a day, maybe 1-200 hundred. This of course would still include experience loss, and would scale up by level.
This will undoubtedly seem harsh to players used to the modern variety of games, but its important to remember that Pantheon will be a game with high risk vs high reward and also one that intends to involve heavy reliance on other players. When someone chooses to not interact with others in order to recover their and other group members corpses, it should be a real thorn in your side.
FIRST, let me start with this. What if the mobs nearby our corpses could EAT our corpses?? There is a lot of things that could be explored with this with giving mobs the ability to eat our corpses. This would force our hand into having to decide quickly if we were going to summon our corpse or fight back to it because we'd have limited time before mobs ate our corpse. IF a mob ate our corpse it could result in losing our money/items/item degradation/stats/etc.
NOW, what if we flipped death on its head. This is the 'spiritual successor' to EQ and VG and there will be some useage of old concepts that worked well either the same way or in new ways in Pantheon. A big part of EQ's success was due to how much it mimmicked real life. In real life people have to bury the dead, they need to bury the corpses. What if we had to fight back to our corpse and then had to drag our corpse out from our point of death and drag it to a grave yard or an altar to receive ALL of our Xp loss back??
If we didn't have time to do this we could still summon our corpse at the GY/altar and bury it and receive a large amount of Xp loss or we could still have the option to fight back to our point of death and just click on our corpses (though I'd like to see this removed from the game) and receive a small Xp loss. BUT if we wanted NO Xp loss? We could have the option to drag our corpses all the way back to the nearest grave yard and bury our corpse. Or maybe possibly for a very small amount of Xp loss. Or maybe remove the option to fight back to our corpses and click on them to receive a small amount of Xp loss, and dragging them to the GY would be the only way to receive a small amount to no amount of Xp loss. Then, couple this with mobs having the ability to eat our corpses and dragging the corpses out to a nearby GY becomes even more of a challenge.
Sounds like most of the problems people mention could have been resolved by a SK or necro corpse summon. It used to be expensive to make coffins they were unstackable at first. It was one of the cool features a sk or necro could sell as a service. When you put graveyards in and summoning through a priest of discord you remove the community aspect of corpse runs and gimp the sk and necro. No graveyards please. Maybe allow a crafter to create a potion that after enchanted by a caster could then be sold to non binding classes to bind close to the dungeon. Or a weapon that would proc return to some town like overthere which could be used before your team wipes to avoid a CR, or a crafted potion for port to bind, or take a evac class, or a FD class or a sk/necro or invis/invis undead caster. The community should have to rely on itself to find better solutions to CR. But don't build a mechanic into the game to allow players to avoid dealing with the community to do a corpse run.
Gorrax said:Sounds like most of the problems people mention could have been resolved by a SK or necro corpse summon. It used to be expensive to make coffins they were unstackable at first. It was one of the cool features a sk or necro could sell as a service. When you put graveyards in and summoning through a priest of discord you remove the community aspect of corpse runs and gimp the sk and necro. No graveyards please. Maybe allow a crafter to create a potion that after enchanted by a caster could then be sold to non binding classes to bind close to the dungeon. Or a weapon that would proc return to some town like overthere which could be used before your team wipes to avoid a CR, or a crafted potion for port to bind, or take a evac class, or a FD class or a sk/necro or invis/invis undead caster. The community should have to rely on itself to find better solutions to CR. But don't build a mechanic into the game to allow players to avoid dealing with the community to do a corpse run.
Maybe wrong since i never played an SK but they didn't get summons until after GY's were put in iirc. Necro was the only summon in PoP and the GYs were in then.
And you are ignoring like everyone's reasoning for not wanting items to remain on corpses. It isn't to avoid a CR. It's to avoid having to find people to do a CR for you. If you die in a dungeon with no items, and none in bank since we will be carrying most of our gear all the time due to constant switches, then you are screwed. You have no way to get back unless you a) are rezzed b) get help of others to drag you through or c) Your group drags your corpse out. Granted this is assuming you play a non caster, like I do. If you are a caster and can invis that does change things. Things have gotten a bit easier considering we all grew up and learned how to handle things but back then when most were learning the game, as we will be again, CR's could be pretty dam brutal.
Enitzu said:Gorrax said:Sounds like most of the problems people mention could have been resolved by a SK or necro corpse summon. It used to be expensive to make coffins they were unstackable at first. It was one of the cool features a sk or necro could sell as a service. When you put graveyards in and summoning through a priest of discord you remove the community aspect of corpse runs and gimp the sk and necro. No graveyards please. Maybe allow a crafter to create a potion that after enchanted by a caster could then be sold to non binding classes to bind close to the dungeon. Or a weapon that would proc return to some town like overthere which could be used before your team wipes to avoid a CR, or a crafted potion for port to bind, or take a evac class, or a FD class or a sk/necro or invis/invis undead caster. The community should have to rely on itself to find better solutions to CR. But don't build a mechanic into the game to allow players to avoid dealing with the community to do a corpse run.
Maybe wrong since i never played an SK but they didn't get summons until after GY's were put in iirc. Necro was the only summon in PoP and the GYs were in then.
And you are ignoring like everyone's reasoning for not wanting items to remain on corpses. It isn't to avoid a CR. It's to avoid having to find people to do a CR for you. If you die in a dungeon with no items, and none in bank since we will be carrying most of our gear all the time due to constant switches, then you are screwed. You have no way to get back unless you a) are rezzed b) get help of others to drag you through or c) Your group drags your corpse out. Granted this is assuming you play a non caster, like I do. If you are a caster and can invis that does change things. Things have gotten a bit easier considering we all grew up and learned how to handle things but back then when most were learning the game, as we will be again, CR's could be pretty dam brutal.
That was half the fun. I remember wiping in a group and having to spend hours afterwards trying to get our corpses back. Yeah you need help from other people. That is what guild mates are for. Guild mates help each other out. Maybe this time I need their help to get my corpse back. Maybe next time they need my help to get their corpse back. It works both ways. Plus you can always pay someone else to help you. I had to do that a couple of times in EQ when my guild mates were not available. I think the whole needing help from other people adds a great deal to the game and should be left in.
For the record I never had a spare set of gear in the bank and still managed OK.
Tralyan said:I play P99. A Dark Elf wizard. Two nights ago I was able to round up a full group to explore Befallen.
Those of you who remember Befallen, we were at the broken stairs leading down to the door for the 3rd level. The one that required the temporary smoked glass key. We were all about lvl 9-10, with myself at 12. Two caster mobs were on our side of the door, each with a pet. Each of these mobs conned yellow/red. There is also a chance of accidentally pulling the elf skeleton that sits on the other side of the door.
So we're standing there at the top of the stairs discussing strategies for killing these mobs. Cleric was going to root the left pet, I was rooting the right pet, assist on one caster, then the other, while we kept the two pets rooted, then take each pet alone. We had a paladin and a monk in the group. They have a friendly argument about who should pull. Both are obviously scared to. The plan was set, everyone was in agreement after a solid 5-8 minutes of discussion and jokes. It's time to pull ........but nobody moves. We sit there, all of us thinking how crappy those corpse runs are. The paladin jokingly says "Ok, casters, go ahead and root". The cleric says "Hell no I'm not pulling initial aggro. You pull, and I'll root." to which I vehemently agreed. We sit there in silence for a minute. You can practically hear everyones thoughts through those pixels.
"This corpse run is gonna suck."
Finally, the Paladin puffs out his chest and says "crossing my fingers your roots don't get resisted. Everyone ready?" He gets a chorus of "yes" .."yuppers" .."someone hold my hand". He says Inc!, pulls, pets get rooted, the plan goes flawlessly, and we prevail.
In my 17 years of playing MMO's, Everquest is the only one that has given me that feeling of suspense. It's not just having to get the XP back. It's not just having to somehow get through the first locked door for my corpse when my key is on my corpse on the other side. It's not knowing that I'll be awake for who knows how long not just for my corpse, but to make sure my groupmates get theirs as well - it was all of those things combined. I want that feeling again, and there isn't a single of those mechanics that, individually, will achieve that result. It's the combination of them all.
Go back to EQ death penalties. Give me harsh XP penalties. Give me corpse runs. Give me those tense moments when actually NOT fighing mobs is a viable choice simply because it's the wise thing to do.
-Tralyan
<3 <3
Enitzu said:
Maybe wrong since i never played an SK but they didn't get summons until after GY's were put in iirc. Necro was the only summon in PoP and the GYs were in then.
And you are ignoring like everyone's reasoning for not wanting items to remain on corpses. It isn't to avoid a CR. It's to avoid having to find people to do a CR for you. If you die in a dungeon with no items, and none in bank since we will be carrying most of our gear all the time due to constant switches, then you are screwed. You have no way to get back unless you a) are rezzed b) get help of others to drag you through or c) Your group drags your corpse out. Granted this is assuming you play a non caster, like I do. If you are a caster and can invis that does change things. Things have gotten a bit easier considering we all grew up and learned how to handle things but back then when most were learning the game, as we will be again, CR's could be pretty dam brutal.
Necro got summon corpse at lvl39 in the original release. SK got it at lvl 51 in kunark (first expansion). I think your gear should stay on your corpse, and you should have to find help. Or you have a necro/sk/invis etc in group to help. That makes it so you think hard about going in to deep when your group can't handle it. Even in EQ you had 7 days to get your corpse. If you can't get it in 7 days, really no excuse, then you need to rethink your strategy.
I think keep the death penalty similar to the way it was. Make sure that death sucks! However, reading through the comments I can understand where there could be situations that Corpse Recovery really does suck and is near impossible. I experienced it - something like 6 or 7 deaths just to get my damn corpse back - whatever it was it was a two level loss by the end of it. And with that in mind a couple of ideas put forward I would also support.
The aspect of a graveyard for summoning a corpse. And like others have mentioned - no experience gained because of it. Maybe it could only trigger after a failed corpse run. Say after three deaths a message about a benevolent being seeing your struggle and offering to help with the resurrection at the graveyard "Look, you're having a real terrible time and things are looking rather dismal, will you allow me to help?" You could still decline. Three deaths lost experience is a pretty heavy toll to take for a death. It really is suckage. But it is better than absolutely losing everything. I know on the worst recoveries after the third death in trying to get the corpse back exasperation would set in and it would be "Frick! I wish there was some damn way to just get this over with already! I'm not having fun anymore!" And at the end of it this is still just a game. Any glimmer of hope is better than none - at least that's my opinion.
Back in the day I do remember staying up really late doing corpse recoveries and being a total waste for work in the morning. I wouldn't be able to get away with it these days. My wife would be putting an end to it pretty fast if a computer game became so important I had to stay up into the wee hours of the night. Thus why I can foresee myself using the graveyard in those instances when I've died repeatedly - maybe even the course of a couple playing sessions over a couple of days. Wanting to simply "stop the pain."
I understand not having to stay up late, they give 7 days on corpse run. You don't have to get your corpse the day you died. If your group can't do it then wait for the next day. But graveyards should not be in the game. I played EQ from 99-04 and after POP I started to lose interest cause everything got so easy and catered. I would agree with almost any method to recover your corpse as long as it was a community driven concept. Like a crafted potion to bind near dungeon. A gate potion, an evac, a summoned corpse, invis potion, etc. But these should be created by the community by crafting imbuing potions, crafting coffins, etc. Maybe the summon corpse should be given at a lower level (like 21 instead of 39 for necro). All I know is if you create a game mechanic that takes away from what a player can create or preform it will be bad for the game. If there was no GY then I guarantee that more SK or necro would hire out their services. More crafters would make bind potions. More wiz, mage, druid would have Evac ready.
Please no Grave Yard, make it easier a bit I guess but only through group/community effort.
I am kind of amazed at how many people are for stiff death penalties. I feel these are the mechanisms I enjoyed least about the best game I have ever played.
I am fine with some exp loss (10% is more than enough if leveling is as slow as EQ was). But things like de-leveling, 50% exp loss, and corpse runs just equate to excessive wasted resources and less time enjoying the core of the game. 5 less hours of corpse runs and re-leveling is 5 more hours doing something innately more valuable, be it in-game or with family.
Just some food for thought - in the 17 years since EQ launched, nearly every person who has played since release is now in their 20's, 30's, or older. Surely I am not the only person who have grown over the last 17 years - developed a family, relationships, etc?
I realize this is bucking the view of many staunch supporters clearly more pain-tolerant than I, and bordering on off-topic to boot. I am merely advocating that the the death penalty evolve with the crowd that originally supported the game.
We have evolved since 1999, right?
TheCleric said:I am kind of amazed at how many people are for stiff death penalties. I feel these are the mechanisms I enjoyed least about the best game I have ever played.
I am fine with some exp loss (10% is more than enough if leveling is as slow as EQ was). But things like de-leveling, 50% exp loss, and corpse runs just equate to excessive wasted resources and less time enjoying the core of the game. 5 less hours of corpse runs and re-leveling is 5 more hours doing something innately more valuable, be it in-game or with family.
Just some food for thought - in the 17 years since EQ launched, nearly every person who has played since release is now in their 20's, 30's, or older. Surely I am not the only person who have grown over the last 17 years - developed a family, relationships, etc?
I realize this is bucking the view of many staunch supporters clearly more pain-tolerant than I, and bordering on off-topic to boot. I am merely advocating that the the death penalty evolve with the crowd that originally supported the game.
We have evolved since 1999, right?
I take your food for thought, and offer you the entree.
Yes, WE are now in our 20's, 30's (and let's be honest, 40's, 50's, and higher), and we have jobs and families and we don't have the time to invest in an MMO that we did when we were pizza faced awkward nerds getting pushed into lockers. This is true. But we are also not the future of MMO's. We're the old crotchety group standing on the lawn telling all the whippersnappers how it used to be, and how good it once was, and how their MMO lives are so much easier and less fulfilling than ours once were. Would we then want to take from them the chance to live through those good times? Would we want to sit here and talk about the golden years, and then when those golden years are offered back to not only us, but also to the next generation of gangly nerds that can't find a date on saturday night, we then use our lack of playtime and our lack of availability to take that away?
This isn't about just us old EQ and Vanguard nerds. This is also about the nerds that have never been given the chance to be in the glory days of MMO's. I for one feel it is selfish to force a game to cater to one group of folks just because they have jobs and responsibilites. There are already plenty of those games out there. This is something new, taken from the old, for all folks to enjoy. Not just us.
I've never quite understood that argument, frankly. Not that I don't agree with the fact that I won't have as much time to put into it. I certainly do. I just don't agree with that being a reason for making a game "easier". So I won't be able to level as fast as the younger crowd because I'll be working 60 hour weeks and dealing with my little brats at home. So what? When I DO get on, I want it to be brutal, and punishing, and to make every tiny little advancement I make feel as fulfilling as reaching end game on any other MMO out there.
It's not just that I want obnoxious corpse runs and harsh penalties. I also want little timmy to skip class and ignore his friends because he has to get his corpse before it decays, too. I want little Timmy to know what it feels like to want to throw his keyboard at the wall. Hell, if I could, I'd force little Timmy to get on Dial-up, too.
You're going down, little Timmy.
-Tralyan
Just throwing in my 2 cents.
Corpse Runs = Yes
Exp Loss = Yes
Loss of Gear = No (No Corpse Rot) I would hate not being able to get my corpse and having to log off with it out in the world still and have said corpse rot.
I like the idea that others have mentioned of dragging corpses. (So your high level buddy or guildmate or random adventurer could with permission drag your corpse out a tuff situation for you)
Also like the idea of a 24h-48h period if you havent gotten your corpse it could appear somewhere in the world for you to grab. (town / zone entrance)
Pyde Pyper
I think it is safe to say that a lot - if not the majority - of people are interested in this game due to the rose-tinted glasses of time that make us pine for the good old days.
In reality, I simply feel a lot of these mechanics are now antiquated:
"You died - sucks, brah. Bound on another continent? Better find a port or prepare to run for 2 hours. Try not to die along the way with no armor. Can't get your body? Hope you have a necro in your zone who charges less than 100 plat or that you can beg another group to help you on CR. Ah, no cleric to give you an exp rez? Don't worry, you only lost an entire play session of exp."
Game development has evolved since then, and there are plenty of ways to make death "sting" and retain a challenging atmosphere without leaning on the same mechanics or throwing away dozens of hours of time.
I, for one, am hoping this game will be a refinement/improvement on predecessors, and not simply a rehashing of EQ and VG. Otherwise, go play P99 if you want to relive the "glory days" of corpse runs and massive exp posses. Just my opinion.
TheCleric said:I think it is safe to say that a lot - if not the majority - of people are interested in this game due to the rose-tinted glasses of time that make us pine for the good old days.
In reality, I simply feel a lot of these mechanics are now antiquated:
"You died - sucks, brah. Bound on another continent? Better find a port or prepare to run for 2 hours. Try not to die along the way with no armor. Can't get your body? Hope you have a necro in your zone who charges less than 100 plat or that you can beg another group to help you on CR. Ah, no cleric to give you an exp rez? Don't worry, you only lost an entire play session of exp."
Game development has evolved since then, and there are plenty of ways to make death "sting" and retain a challenging atmosphere without leaning on the same mechanics or throwing away dozens of hours of time.
I, for one, am hoping this game will be a refinement/improvement on predecessors, and not simply a rehashing of EQ and VG. Otherwise, go play P99 if you want to relive the "glory days" of corpse runs and massive exp posses. Just my opinion.
I am playing P99, actually. For the exact reason that I *don't* think those mechanics are antiquated.
It's not that I totally disagree with you here. There is a lot of nostalgia at work, you're right, and we all may find that after the novelty of it wears out, we'll see an outcry of "omg no more cr's plzkthx", but I doubt that.
My question to you is - You say there are other ways to make death in an MMO sting - What ways are you talking about? I've played many MMO's since EQ, and none since have made me feel that fear of death, and that suspense, quite as well as EQ did. Vanguard came close.
I'm all for innovation. If the Pantheon devs can devise a way to make me feel that way again without those old mechanics, I'll be thrilled! I just don't see it happening. I am, however, always open to new and exciting ideas when it comes to creating that sense of excitement in an MMO.
Here's hoping they accomplish that somehow, even if it's not in the way I'd prefer.
-Tralyan
I think it comes down to the impression of time and investment. A subscription allows for ongoing maintenance and development. Everyone pays the same amount regardless of the amount of time they actually play. Those that play 10 hours a day seven days a week pay the exact same as those who play 3 hours per week.
The feeling is that rewards should basically be for those who PLAY a lot! Not those who PAY a lot. Casual gamer? Don't expect the best items or top end-game scenario. Put in the time if you want the rewards. No one argues that.
Penalties? I get the feeling the overwhelming opinion is one of it should not be based on the amount PLAYED but based on the amount PAID. We all pay the same so the penalty should be the same. Casual gamer who only plays once per week. Sucks about the penalty and 7 day corpse rot - maybe you should play more often since you are paying the same as those that do. Sorry but it's GAME OVER for you. How many players can even begin to associate "GAME OVER" with their character. How many would be willing to subscribe to this game if any death was "GAME OVER" sorry, start again. I doubt very many at all, if any. But that is one consideration that needs to be taken into account in the aspect of death penalties.
See the disconnect? Because it is possible in this day and age to have the death penalty adapt to each individuals playstyle. Those that put in 300 hours in a month as opposed to those who put in 15 hours in the month they could have the death penalty be 20 times worse! Too harsh? What would not be too harsh? I get the feeling that the answer to what would not be too harsh is "excatly the same penalty for everyone, regardless." I am not in favour of this proposal I am just illustrating that there are other methods of assessing penalties which can be of the aspect of "amount PLAYED" as opposed to "amount PAID."
Balancing a game for a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer is not easy. The rulesets don't permit an easy go of it. It is either PAY to win or PLAY to win. I am very much of the aspect of "PLAY to win." If everyone pays the same amount then the difference is time invested and amount PLAYED. It behooves those that play a lot to acknowledge there are those that don't play as much and are as much a part of the game and experience as they are - because that ensures new content will be developed and will be developed such that those that play more can experience it more. That's the great thing about every user pays the same amount regardless of how often they use it. Those that use it less will be subsidizing those that use it more. Those that use it more will be playtesting for those that use it less - bugs get worked out, errors get fixed, and in the long run there is less trial and error on the casual gamer - doesn't make it easier just makes it less trial and error. It is a balancing act that casual gamers understand and we have no problems paying the same amount as everyone else even though we'll play a fraction of the time that others do. I can't speak as a hardcore gamer and whether they understand that dichotomy or not since I am not a hardcore gamer.
So an aspect of corpse recovery after a high penalty has already been assessed doesn't mean the game is easier. If using a graveyard carries the same cost as a triple death penalty and a de-level would hardcore gamers be flocking to the graveyard because it makes the game easier? The casual gamer won't be flocking to it either because that could, in fact, be one months worth of playtime. But it would be sought out if the only other alternative was "GAME OVER." Again, not saying "WHAT WILL BE" just pointing out that there are aspects of penalties that can be instituted in the game besides a "GAME OVER" penalty.
I think an interesting aspect of this subject is that people generally don't seem worried about the experience penalty, or the corpse run, but are concerned about loosing the equipment if they can't find the people to help with the CR.
To me one of the most beneficial aspects of the CR is the fact that you need the help of others - and one thing that I think most of us agree is that most mmorpgs fail to get the level of inter player communication that EQ did. I believe its the whole looking for help with a CR, or looking for a rez, or looking for a taxi, or the waiting for a group in KC (for example) at the zone in that gets people talking, and created what EQ created and other games havent.
I do however understand that sometimes it is impossible time wise to pull together a group for a CR, or that the right combination of people might not be available. I think an EQ style system, but with NPCs who can summon the corpse and equipment at CONSIDERABLE cost financially is a good idea. It could of course be implemented via having NPC summoning your corpse cost a considerable amount of durability and hence cash. The benefit of this approach is that the cost can easily be made to scale with value of equipment and level.