Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Let's talk Death Penalty

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    • 557 posts
    September 1, 2015 8:52 AM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    This is where we are trying to be careful, as we are not making an EQ game, Pantheon is a completely new game, while still utilising some mechanics, features and systems that we thought worked well in both EQ, VG and other games, but we also are adding new systems, features and mechanics to make Pantheon stand out on its own.



    Pantheon is not a sequel to EQ or VG, it is a spiritual successor in a "sense" due to Brad being the creator of those two games and now working on Pantheon, but more importantly it is its own new standalone IP. I hope everyone understands that.

     

    I'm so glad to hear this reminder.   Since we don't have access to the inner discussions at VRI, all we have to go by for comparison/discussion as players are what we've seen in previous games.   It's easy to lose sight of the fact that Pantheon is going to be an entirely new game and nothing mandates that ANYTHING which we had in previous games is necessarily "precious" and has to be true on Terminus.

     

    What threads such as this help determine is the mind set of this small group of devoted fans in regard to any given topic.   We're never going to agree entirely but I hope the general tone of the thread is reflected in the final game.   Death should be meaningful and something to be avoided, not a strategy of itself to zerg your way to a win in any dungeon.   I'm sure we can trust Brad and minions to make it challenging and fun.

     

    (Well as much as you can trust minions...)

     


    This post was edited by Celandor at September 2, 2015 4:39 AM PDT
    • 77 posts
    September 1, 2015 8:54 AM PDT

    Has to challenge you.  There should definitely be a penalty for dying, but it can't be too harsh.  The idea for any long term health of anything is to keep you coming back.  EQ1 early on was really, really harsh.  TBH, im not sure Brad and Co. knew at the time what would happen, they had what.... Ultima Online to look at?  (it was really harsh there too).

     

    When you perish, I believe you should have to retrieve your corpse.  However, if you cant or its impossible (time restrictions, middle of a dungeon etc) there should be a secondary option that is steep, but doable.  Rez Stones/Corpse retrieval stations I think are ideal like Vanguard (kind of), but it should require a steeper payment.

     

    Instead of just money or whatever, it should require rares / harvestables that is needed to summon/resurrect your body from the netherworld!

     

    All the while the EXP loss is permanent.  That I am a huge fan of, even De-leveling.  I loved it in EQ1 that you had to keep exp'ing/doing stuff/keeping active, to keep your level.  Its kind of like your driver's license or your medical license. You have to keep current!

     

    I believe this combination of things wont make the casual or hardcore happy, but it would be a nice comprise in the middle.

     

    I don't think the answer is to just make it as hardcore as possible.  That will please 400 people, and scare away 10k.  Just not worth it in my opinion, that are far more things to be excited/ramble about then when you die.

    • 595 posts
    September 1, 2015 9:33 AM PDT

    It's hard to contribute too much to this discussion that hasn't been mentioned.  I was a fan of the original Vanguard death penalty (before the many changes) and I think an iteration of it would be acceptable.  Perhaps there is an option to summon your corpse with no xp gain in addition to a penalty for each piece of gear on your corpse which is based on the value of said piece (could be paid with coin or xp perhaps).  This would be steep enough penalty to incentivize people to make a corpse run in most situations but also insurance that a corpse with full epic raid gear isn't lost.

     

    I think in general I am in favor of a relatively steep death penalty but it needs to add to the game/adventure not take away from it.

    • 70 posts
    September 1, 2015 10:16 AM PDT

    The funny thing about all of this is that really all of these xp penalties etc really only punish casual players and make things "challenging" for them.  Anyone moderately serious will be max level in no time (I know people delude themselves into thinking this took a long time in EQ. It didn't really if you knew what you were doing.  We were just mostly noobs in 1999.)  At max level in any game (unless you aren't allowed an xp pool) dying and losing xp is trivial unless you never actually play the game in a fashion that yields xp.  Throw in some rezzes here and there to save time and staying capped on xp requires minimal effort at best.  Once cleric epics were common this was just a silly penalty for any non-casual player.

     

    That said no matter what level you are or how hardcore you are, a naked corpse run is pretty much ALWAYS annoying.  Sure if you are in a huge guild you can always have your buddy fetch it for you or a friendly guild necro summon it.  That however still puts you in a position to be unable to play for a short while as things are organized.  This to me is a much more all encompassing punishment for death than xp loss or debt ever will be.

     

    All said though I really think this is a trivial issue and so long as there isn't a situation created to where it is ever beneficial to "bind-rush" anything I don't really care what the penalty is or if there is one.  I can say from personal experience that there were plenty of times dying in WoW pissed me off way more than any death in EQ.  At least in EQ there was some feeling of "oh ****!" involved.  Dying deep in AQ and having to run back for 15 damned minutes of utter tedium with no chance of dying was horrible even without xp loss.

    • 17 posts
    September 1, 2015 10:17 AM PDT

    There are always ways to keep it similar but add your own twist.  Level 5 no gear/xp loss.  Level 10 start losing both gear and xp.  With each level the xp loss becomes greater.  

     

    Have class restricted rez abilities.  Increasing in xp recovery as ranks (or levels) increase.  This could be something you could add to such as having the rez line of spells increase in rank with use, for example, level 20 rez spell can rez up 25% xp back, but make it start at 5% xp back, with achievements to increase the percentage such as for every 5 different players rezzed it raises 2.5% earned.  To keep it from being something held off until the higher levels rez spells it could be a continuation.  The level 30 rez spell can get up to 35% xp back, but if you never rezzed anybody, you would still only give back 5% xp until you unlocked the achievements to increase it.  This could make finding a rez easier, it could change the economy in various ways (remember necro sacrifices for the EE?-  rezzers may even consider paying you for the xp loss to help improve their rez %).

     

    In terms of group/leadership aa's there could be abilities that could be purchased that allow a player to choose to spawn at their bind point or in a safe place in the zone (limited use- restrict certain zones).

     

    As you get higher you could throw in an AA type ability with a slight chance to lose half the xp loss (does not need to be half could be any percentage- could have ranks that increase this percentage, you could make the ranks increase the chance it occurs... rank 1- 1%, rank 2- 1.5%, rank 3- 2% etc...

     

    Could add in raid xp points or levels.  In relation to the other forum regarding raid rewards.  You could separate xp earned in raids as its completely own separate xp bar.  Offering access to purchase abilities that give you a slight chance to not have to recover your corpse on death.. adding to the value of raiding, giving you abilities that benefit you both in and out of raids... in general adding to the overall usefulness and strength of that character.  Have some abilities that only benefit you in raiding.  Give players options to choose which abilities they feel benefit them the most.  


    This post was edited by Phantomghost at September 1, 2015 5:20 PM PDT
    • 366 posts
    September 1, 2015 10:46 AM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    Zarriya said:

     

    I am open minded about the death penalty but I do want to remark that by promoting a game that harkens back to EQ people are going to expect a corpse run.

     

     

    This is where we are trying to be careful, as we are not making an EQ game, Pantheon is a completely new game, while still utilising some mechanics, features and systems that we thought worked well in both EQ, VG and other games, but we also are adding new systems, features and mechanics to make Pantheon stand out on its own.


    Pantheon is not a sequel to EQ or VG, it is a spiritual successor in a "sense" due to Brad being the creator of those two games and now working on Pantheon, but more importantly it is its own new standalone IP. I hope everyone understands that.

     

    A my past posts have shown, I am in agreement that this game should stand alone and not be a copy of any previous game.

     

    However it has already been posted on Kickstarter (and subsequently echoed through forums and game sites) that there will be corpse runs. That was a over a year ago and I am flexible enough to go with the flow. The death penalty as long as it is meaningful is okay with me. Heck, I die so much that I probably would want an easier penalty (ha ha). But I will say again a corpse run is expected.  

     

    There is a very detailed post that I will reference from Kickstarter : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/747862

    a portion of it says :

     

    On Death in Pantheon....

    .........Being a fallen hero, players are familiar with breaking the bonds of death and being reborn. Of course being reborn means you come into the world with nothing but the skin on your back and some conveniently placed clothing, that is if you choose to embrace death and release. If not, you can sit above a corpse like a ghostly watcher, for a period of time, while you wait for someone to offer you a resurrection.

    Regardless of the route you choose, your corpse is an important thing because not only does it hold all of your gear but a portion of your experience. Experience is a measure of how powerful you have become but, like most things, what has been gained can also be lost. This means that losing too much XP can reduce your level making that corpse even more important.

    But death is not the end. If you choose to leave your corpse you will appear at your last bind point with a single burning desire… TO FIND AND RETRIEVE YOUR CORPSE! Now you consider your options carefully when at this point because you want to get as much of your experience back as is allowed. So what are your options? Well, players can resurrect you which, depending on the level, will give you back a portion of your experience, teleport you to your corpse, and give you resurrection effects. This is the most optimal option but it is only available for a certain period of time since corpses have a resurrection timer on them. Can’t find a player who can cast resurrection? You may have to find a a way back to your corpse or ask someone to drag it to you......

    ........This is the early design of Death in Pantheon, while we try to make death something to be feared, but not something that will cause unreasonable amounts of grief. The system will be tested during our alpha and beta phases and is subject to modification."

     

     

    I included the last sentence because yea things change and that is okay :)  The purpose of my original post in this forum was to provide feedback of what people were expecting.  

     

     


    This post was edited by Zarriya at September 2, 2015 9:49 AM PDT
    • 160 posts
    September 1, 2015 11:29 AM PDT

    While Pantheon is not EQ 1, people recommend features from EQ 1 because they worked in long term.

    These features and design decisions made people play EQ 1 year after year for more than a decade, which is more than any game in the history of computer gaming ever did.

     

    Now, specifically about the death penalty: IMO it should be EQ 1 without any graveyards.

    Why?

     

    1) Death should hurt

    2) Careful playing should feel different than mindless mistakes

    3) Interdependency should be encouraged.
    If I want my corpse summoned, I should have to get a necro or SK to do it, a live player, not go to a graveyard or some sort of a temple and click on the game UI.

     

    EQ 1 death penalty was not bad at all. You would not lose items unless you let your corpse rot for a month or so. If you cannot recover it, it was always possible to summon corpse. The only difference I would make - there should be no zone in which corpse summon is disabled. Corpses must be recoverable, and if that has to be limited in order to prevent content skipping, make them summonable at zone entrance at least.

     

    • 158 posts
    September 1, 2015 11:38 AM PDT
    Zarriya said: /snip because too large.  

     

     

     

    This is kindof contradictory to other comments made around the same time however. I distinctly remember a kindof Q&A video with Brad talking about death penalties and it was pretty clearly highlighted that he/they (the team at that time) were undecided on how severe the penalty should be where they weren't corpse runs were right but that an exp penalty would be about the minimum. 

     

    As I have already somewhat stated I would prefer an exp penalty and maybe some other slight penalty things (and rez spells and such to facilitate cooperation) but currently don't like the idea of corpse runs. To me they sound like its more of an intrusion on gameplay. Death penalties should hurt but I don't think they should be so intrusive as to force you to completely halt what you are doing or want to be doing to go and deal with it. Something like the exp penalty should make you cautious and wanting to avoid death but keep you adventuring, corpse runs sound like a detour any time you die.

    • 160 posts
    September 1, 2015 12:07 PM PDT

    Corpse runs are good because they were an event in their own right. And they allow for more interdependency too. People help other people on corpse runs. And yes, not every time will you find someone willing to help - but that's what makes the times when someone does help, memorable.

     

    Mechanics of corpse runs - and corpse pulling/dragging, getting it out of the dangerous area, summoning if needed, it all adds up to a significant aspect of the game.

     

    Remove corpse runs, you removed all that. The game will be poorer.

     

    • 366 posts
    September 1, 2015 12:28 PM PDT
    Mephiles said:
    Zarriya said: /snip because too large.  

     

     

     

    This is kindof contradictory to other comments made around the same time however. I distinctly remember a kindof Q&A video with Brad talking about death penalties and it was pretty clearly highlighted that he/they (the team at that time) were undecided on how severe the penalty should be where they weren't corpse runs were right but that an exp penalty would be about the minimum. 

     

    As I have already somewhat stated I would prefer an exp penalty and maybe some other slight penalty things (and rez spells and such to facilitate cooperation) but currently don't like the idea of corpse runs. To me they sound like its more of an intrusion on gameplay. Death penalties should hurt but I don't think they should be so intrusive as to force you to completely halt what you are doing or want to be doing to go and deal with it. Something like the exp penalty should make you cautious and wanting to avoid death but keep you adventuring, corpse runs sound like a detour any time you die.

    No it is not contradictory. Here are some other sources: 

    Brad's AMA on reddit :

     https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1whvd2/i_am_brad_mcquaid_one_of_the_creators_of/

    AraduneMithara[S] 18 points 1 year ago 

     

    1. yes, corpse runs will return.

     

    TenTon Hammer Inerview w/ Ben:

     http://www.tentonhammer.com/interviews/pantheon-everquest-era-niche

    Q. Corpse runs? Yes / no.

    Yes.

     

    I am sure I can find others, but I really don't think I need too :)

     

    I know you are concerned with it being like EQ - supposedly it wont: Brad already said back in February that they were not ready to discuss details but that it will be at least as painful as Vanguard probably more. At that time he felt that you would spawn with your gear/loots/xp loss.  If you make it back to your corpse you will get back some of the xp loss.  https://soundcloud.com/pantheon-rotf/developer-roundtable-2-28-15-pt1    7min52sec

     my disclaimer: development is ongoing and subject to change :)

     


    This post was edited by Zarriya at September 2, 2015 9:50 AM PDT
    • 211 posts
    September 1, 2015 1:10 PM PDT

    I don't know if there's another topic so many people disagree on. All I can say for sure, is for me personally, if there's not corpse runs to regain my gear, dying will not matter one iota to me. Any exp loss will be regained before my current play session ends (or close to it). If a 'corpse run' consists of not regaining gear back but just to get exp back, I probably won't even care to go get it unless it was maybe in an outdoor very easy-to-get-to place. So for me personally, no tradition corpse retrieval is a step in the direction of today's too-easy mmos.

    • 578 posts
    September 1, 2015 1:29 PM PDT
    Mephiles said:
    Zarriya said: /snip because too large.  

    As I have already somewhat stated I would prefer an exp penalty and maybe some other slight penalty things (and rez spells and such to facilitate cooperation) but currently don't like the idea of corpse runs. To me they sound like its more of an intrusion on gameplay.

    Corpse runs aren't THAT bad. If you are solo it just means you need to take precaution with what you are doing. Also, if solo, the area you are in shouldn't be too difficult to make it back to your corpse unless you ran head first deep into a nasty area without looking up for five minutes.

    If you are in a group and die most times someone will survive to rez everybody back up. The only time a corpse run REALLY becomes a REAL problem is when the whole group wipes. And this is exactly the point because at high level (max level) the xp loss/debt for dieing doesn't sting as bad as lower levels. The hurt comes from being in a tough area with your group and the whole group wipes, THEN you are most likely deep into some area that is hard and will have to take the time to return to where you were at previously.

    • 9115 posts
    September 1, 2015 5:15 PM PDT
    BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
    Kilsin said:
    Zarriya said:

     

    I am open minded about the death penalty but I do want to remark that by promoting a game that harkens back to EQ people are going to expect a corpse run.

     

     

    This is where we are trying to be careful, as we are not making an EQ game, Pantheon is a completely new game, while still utilising some mechanics, features and systems that we thought worked well in both EQ, VG and other games, but we also are adding new systems, features and mechanics to make Pantheon stand out on its own.


    Pantheon is not a sequel to EQ or VG, it is a spiritual successor in a "sense" due to Brad being the creator of those two games and now working on Pantheon, but more importantly it is its own new standalone IP. I hope everyone understands that.

     

    That's all well and good but when talking about specific game play, such as death and all that it encompasses, the comparison is valid and going to be there no matter what.  It's a valid comparison because either death is easier than EQ/harder than WoW, has corpse runs/doesn't have corpse runs, exp loss/exp debt, decay/no decay, etc...  Spiritual successor means, to me, if I liked EQ or VG then I am definitely going to like Pantheon.  Death is an important game play aspect for players regardless of where they stand on the intricacies.

     

    We will believe death is going to be very like the games we've already played, at least until the team tells us they have a totally new death system, at which time, we will be able to reasonably discuss our views on the new system.  :)

    Oh absolutely, people can relate death to Runescape if that is the best memory of death in game that they have and that is fine, I want a broad mix of memories, idea's and opinions, it is exactly what I asked for ;)


    I just wanted to take that opportunity to make it clear that Pantheon is it's own game and not an EQ or VG sequel, people forget that sometimes and I think it's very important to know that we are going our own path with this game, even though we intend to use some things that worked well in both EQ and VG.


    I just wanted to reply to Zarriya because of the statement that was posted "I do want to remark that by promoting a game that harkens back to EQ people are going to expect a corpse run." She was spot on, a lot of EQ fans think this and it needed to be cleared up.

     

    The same argument could be made for the VG fans who spent 7 years playing a Brad McQuaid inspired game who see VG as progress made over EQ and both parties can't have the same death penalty...so I just wanted to make it clear that this game is not a sequel to either game and to be open minded about things like Death etc. and not to expect everything be exactly like EQ or VG. :)

    • 9115 posts
    September 1, 2015 5:27 PM PDT
    Zarriya said:
    Kilsin said:
    Zarriya said:

     

    I am open minded about the death penalty but I do want to remark that by promoting a game that harkens back to EQ people are going to expect a corpse run.

     

     

    This is where we are trying to be careful, as we are not making an EQ game, Pantheon is a completely new game, while still utilising some mechanics, features and systems that we thought worked well in both EQ, VG and other games, but we also are adding new systems, features and mechanics to make Pantheon stand out on its own.


    Pantheon is not a sequel to EQ or VG, it is a spiritual successor in a "sense" due to Brad being the creator of those two games and now working on Pantheon, but more importantly it is its own new standalone IP. I hope everyone understands that.

     

    A my past posts have shown, I am in agreement that this game should stand alone and not be a copy of any previous game.

     

    However it has already been posted on Kickstarter (and subsequently echoed through forums and game sites) that there will be corpse runs. That was a over a year ago and I am flexible enough to go with the flow. The death penalty as long as it is meaningful is okay with me. Heck, I die so much that I probably would want an easier penalty (ha ha). But I will say again a corpse run is expected.  

     

    There is a very detailed post that I will reference from Kickstarter : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/747862

    a portion of it says :

     

    On Death in Pantheon....

    .........Being a fallen hero, players are familiar with breaking the bonds of death and being reborn. Of course being reborn means you come into the world with nothing but the skin on your back and some conveniently placed clothing, that is if you choose to embrace death and release. If not, you can sit above a corpse like a ghostly watcher, for a period of time, while you wait for someone to offer you a resurrection.

    Regardless of the route you choose, your corpse is an important thing because not only does it hold all of your gear but a portion of your experience. Experience is a measure of how powerful you have become but, like most things, what has been gained can also be lost. This means that losing too much XP can reduce your level making that corpse even more important.

    But death is not the end. If you choose to leave your corpse you will appear at your last bind point with a single burning desire… TO FIND AND RETRIEVE YOUR CORPSE! Now you consider your options carefully when at this point because you want to get as much of your experience back as is allowed. So what are your options? Well, players can resurrect you which, depending on the level, will give you back a portion of your experience, teleport you to your corpse, and give you resurrection effects. This is the most optimal option but it is only available for a certain period of time since corpses have a resurrection timer on them. Can’t find a player who can cast resurrection? You may have to find a a way back to your corpse or ask someone to drag it to you......

    ........This is the early design of Death in Pantheon, while we try to make death something to be feared, but not something that will cause unreasonable amounts of grief. The system will be tested during our alpha and beta phases and is subject to modification."

     

     

    I included the last sentence because yea things change and that is okay :)  The purpose of my original post in this forum was to provide feedback of what people were expecting.  

     

     

    It's really hard to reply to this as we approach the big update, but you are right, this is almost a completely new team since those days, many things have changed. :)


    I hope you don't think that I am singling you out either, your post actually helped me realise that this was the expectation for a few people, so I just wanted to make a general statement while replying to it so I could get that message out briefly, so thank you for making it! :) 

    • 70 posts
    September 1, 2015 6:18 PM PDT

    To add one more thing I forgot in my previous post.  The return to bind point on death was also an always effective punishment for non-casters or casters who either forgot, or chose not to rebind close by.  I guess as I mentioned with regard to WoW, I really just hate the running back forever part more than the exp loss lol.

    • 318 posts
    September 1, 2015 6:44 PM PDT
    jezebel said:

    To add one more thing I forgot in my previous post.  The return to bind point on death was also an always effective punishment for non-casters or casters who either forgot, or chose not to rebind close by.  I guess as I mentioned with regard to WoW, I really just hate the running back forever part more than the exp loss lol.

    That's a good point. I prefer the EQ1 style of binding to a single location in the world and having to run back from that spot when you die, however far it was.

     

    I can't remember exactly how Vanguard was with return to bind, it has been so long. But I do remember there being alters scattered every few chunks, where you could return to the nearest one when you died.

     

    Pantheon should go the route of returning to a single bind point on death, and not give you the option to rez at the closest alter, imho.

    • 366 posts
    September 1, 2015 7:25 PM PDT

    @ Kilsin   Everything is good :)

    • 1434 posts
    September 1, 2015 9:25 PM PDT
    Fingurs said:

    Has to challenge you.  There should definitely be a penalty for dying, but it can't be too harsh.  The idea for any long term health of anything is to keep you coming back.  EQ1 early on was really, really harsh.  TBH, im not sure Brad and Co. knew at the time what would happen, they had what.... Ultima Online to look at?  (it was really harsh there too).

     

    When you perish, I believe you should have to retrieve your corpse.  However, if you cant or its impossible (time restrictions, middle of a dungeon etc) there should be a secondary option that is steep, but doable.  Rez Stones/Corpse retrieval stations I think are ideal like Vanguard (kind of), but it should require a steeper payment.

     

    Instead of just money or whatever, it should require rares / harvestables that is needed to summon/resurrect your body from the netherworld!

     

    All the while the EXP loss is permanent.  That I am a huge fan of, even De-leveling.  I loved it in EQ1 that you had to keep exp'ing/doing stuff/keeping active, to keep your level.  Its kind of like your driver's license or your medical license. You have to keep current!

     

    I believe this combination of things wont make the casual or hardcore happy, but it would be a nice comprise in the middle.

     

    I don't think the answer is to just make it as hardcore as possible.  That will please 400 people, and scare away 10k.  Just not worth it in my opinion, that are far more things to be excited/ramble about then when you die.

    While I agree, the death penalty shouldn't be as hardcore as possible just the sake of making it hardcore, I also don't feel EQ's death penalty was harsh. Outside of the fact that you could actually lose your corpse permanently (which I don't think is appropriate for Pantheon), the experience loss and the corpse run were really not a big deal.

     

    I'd say the only thing that made EQ seem that harsh in retrospect was that we, the players, were complete noobs. We were unaccustomed to MMOs, our navigation skills were horrible, and lets be honest, our ability to avoid death was just bad. It honestly didn't take that long before I never really worried about losing my corpse, though the tension that a real death penalty could invoke never really went away. Even when I played p99, there was always that excitement when the fight was close that really didn't exist in other MMOs... and thats a good thing.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at September 2, 2015 6:13 AM PDT
    • 999 posts
    September 2, 2015 4:17 AM PDT
    jezebel said:

     

     

    That said no matter what level you are or how hardcore you are, a naked corpse run is pretty much ALWAYS annoying.  Sure if you are in a huge guild you can always have your buddy fetch it for you or a friendly guild necro summon it.  That however still puts you in a position to be unable to play for a short while as things are organized.  This to me is a much more all encompassing punishment for death than xp loss or debt ever will be.

     

    That line there to me is exactly why naked corpse runs are needed.  Everything else with death penalties are trivial, and, even naked corpse runs become more trivial once characters achieve a high enough level for res/corpse summoning abilities.

     

    But, it's not a bad thing that that death penalties become nearly trivial at max level due to corpse summons, resses, player skill etc. as it is/was the journey in EQ to 50 or 60 that was the most memorable anyhow, and, I want my journey in Pantheon to replicate that experience as much as possible, and it won't be without the fear, wonder, excitement, anger, etc.

     

    Also, another major positive side effect of the harsh death penalty being overlooked is it forced people to be better players.  Yes, as others have said, in 1999, most of us were newbs to MMOs, so the penalty seemed even more harsh.  But, ultimately, most players in EQ became extremely skilled and one of the main factors of that transition was due to finding creative ways to avoid death (which I like to call emergent gameplay - root parking, etc.).  Obviously, many of the players now would already be familiar with those tactics, but I would guess Pantheon will have a share of its own unique emergent gameplay that would develop.

     

    So to summarize, I'd be in favor of at least an Eq-esque death penalty with exp loss, de-leveling, and corpse runs.

    • 70 posts
    September 2, 2015 8:43 AM PDT

    I think there is something to be said about one of the "rewards" for hitting max level being an "immunity" to some of the annoyances of dying.  It's just another incentive to get there.  That said, getting max level may be trivial for some and quite the ordeal for others.  

     

    I know with EQ back in the day and on P1999 in modern times I had friends who play very little (i.e. casuals) and they were REALLY upset when they would die as it was probably a weeks worth of their play time just gone.  On top of that their entire play session for that day, during which they already "wasted" an hour looking for a group, will be a total waste as they spend the rest of the time trying to get their body back.

    • 112 posts
    September 2, 2015 8:47 AM PDT

    IMHO*

    Exp debt, seems like a silly and unnecessary tweak to exp loss.  Just rip the bandaid off, making it debt instead of seeing the real and immediate loss, enables people to just ignore a death that much easier.

     

    And that is something that needs to be heeded imo, death in an mmorpg should never be something that can be ignored.

     

    Corpse runs themselves are vital in the recipe for the game, in keeping the experiences noteworthy and keeping a healthy respect for your surroundings and what you are doing.  Dead and naked, even if you aren't the person(s) running back to the corpses, you have ample time to reflect on what went wrong.  A penalty that doesn't pack a punch, results in wow, where you wipe, run back, and if you wipe again for the same foolish reason *then* you bother communicating over how to avoid it.

     

    A gravestone that holds my exp is useless.  I (like many others) remember DAOC where I would suicide for travel purposes.  Can't delevel?  Great, I just dinged so it's time to "port" to town for free.

     

    I understand this is intended to be a new game, and the "death penalty" is supposed to be somewhere between VG and EQ.  I never played VG.  For the sake of being simplistic, I would be perfectly fine with original EQ1 penalties. 

    For the sake of trying to contribute with potential alternatives...  I'd suggest an exp penalty, perhaps 25% of the level.  Respawning at your last bind point with nothing on is very important to the game as a whole, as stated previously it puts a person in a situation EVERYONE will have been in at multiple times in their mmo life.  And as a result you will see people being helpful/sympathetic towards others, also adding one more level of inter-dependancy as others have mentioned.  Corpse locating, corpse dragging, corpse summons, corpse rezzing, possible further assistance also... how many frenzied room wipes were followed by the rezzing/rescuing party helping rebreak the spawn.

     

    I am not a big fan on the concept of a corpse summon graveyard or npc, I'd agree something should be sacreficed in order to get your corpse a lazy/expedited way, possibly a player sacrefice similar to necros?  Maybe make it faction based with a temple, that way it'd indirectly require someone to be a high level before using it?

    • 160 posts
    September 2, 2015 9:46 AM PDT
    jezebel said:
    I had friends who play very little (i.e. casuals) and they were REALLY upset when they would die as it was probably a weeks worth of their play time just gone.  On top of that their entire play session for that day, during which they already "wasted" an hour looking for a group, will be a total waste as they spend the rest of the time trying to get their body back.

     

    While I understand their pain, the game must not be made easier down to the lowest common denominator. If it becomes like that, we might as well play Diablo online.


    The critical point here is, what kind of a game is this going to be? If it's going to be a challenging and memorable game, then it must present a challenge for those who play average to high amount of time.

    It doesn't matter whether we're talking about corpse runs, or difficulty of dungeons, raid bosses or whatnot. The challenge, or the lack of it, is the central point in everything. With the challenge come the consequences if you fail (otherwise there is no real challenge, you can simply repeat over and over).

    With the consequences, come numerous ways of dealing with them (rez spells, corpse summon spells, corpse dragging, friends helping, mage summoned gear for the naked people, invisibility, charm/mez/assorted crowd control, feign death (while corpse dragging), the whole works.

     

    If it's too hard for someone to use any of that, if they want just an instant "I'm back in the fight" button, I understand their needs and even their time and RL constraints, but this is not the game for them.

     

    Actually, I'm not quite correct. There were some of such people in EQ, who over time learned, and became better players, because the game forced them to do that. Those that accepted it, worked on their skills, and eventually it was normal for them. And of course there were those who never accepted it and always whined.

     

    But those who were forced to improve, became better players, became, in a way, better people, because the game forced them into it.

    If not for that, they would have remained as they were.

     

    The moment you start changing the game to accommodate them, instead of forcing them to change to become capable of playing it, the whole game goes down the drain.

     

    In fact, it would be much like if in school you lower the exam/grading criteria, let people pass with less knowledge, because they think it's too hard for them, instead of forcing them to learn and improve and pass the exams as they were intended to.

    Do we really want to make that sort of a game?

     

     


    This post was edited by Aethor at September 3, 2015 2:30 PM PDT
    • 70 posts
    September 2, 2015 11:11 AM PDT

    My last post was just sort of an offhand thought as I had been talking about the reality of who really feels the "consequences" in an exp loss and/or corpse run type scenario.  Personally it doesn't matter.  I do not feel that time spent EVER equals challenge and I do not feel that EQ was a challenging game.  Vanilla WoW is harder than EQ through Velious any day of the week.  If you doubt this go play on P1999 for a bit, then spend 2 days on Nostalrius and tell me how easy vanilla WoW is and how hard EQ is lol.  I guarantee your experience will not match what you remember unless you have completely forgotten how to play EQ (or you play a hunter on Nostalrius).  EQ really only requires patience and a lot of free time.

     

    Now, saying that time spent does not equal challenge doesn't mean that time being wasted does not equal punishment.  It most certainly does.  The most punishing things in any game are being forced to essentially not play the game (corpse run) or to have to repeat something you have already done (exp loss).  So they certainly do push the mind set of DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME OR SUFFER and I would agree this creates better players.  The players may not all improve in skill but they will certainly take their play more seriously and be less likely to be half watching TV while grouping with you.  

     

    I personally am for the penalty stinging I just want people to think before they shout from the mountain tops that every death must cost you a week of play time in exp, you should have to make 3 laps around the game world followed by a naked dash through a belt-line of mobs twice your level and concluded with a Pitfall-esque jumping puzzle replete with alligators reach your body...  This game can be niche and old school without being unplayable by anyone without a trust fund lol.  So make it sting but be wary the more it does the smaller the game's audience becomes.

  • September 2, 2015 11:37 AM PDT

    Maybe it's better to say that this game has the reputation of being a 'Brad-like' game.

     

    If it does not turn out to be a 'Brad-like' game,  hundreds or thousands of players will simply stay at Daybreak, waiting for the next Progression servers to open, or stay at P99, until a 'Brad-like' game comes out.  History has proven this time and again since 2006-7.

     

    edit for correct dates :)


    This post was edited by BloodbeardBattlecaster at September 2, 2015 6:19 PM PDT
    • 52 posts
    September 2, 2015 12:42 PM PDT

    First off I'd like to state outright that I like death penalties needs to be immense. With games that offer the option I always play on hardcore rulesets that when you die you lose your character permanently. Obviously this would be tough to implement into a standard mmo mainly because no one would ever do anything. However, a penalty to death makes everyone play differently smarter and strategically With that said here are my ideas.

     

    - No death of any kind should keep a player from playing the game. Such as a corpse run or having to wait X amount of time for a sickness to go away. These are artificial means to extend game play.

     

    -Make sure the CON system is extremely well done and put warnings into the environment to danger areas for lower levels.

     

    - I think EXP loss is a must. Make it maybe 5% of current total exp (this needs to be tweaked depending on leveling system) that way regardless of lvl you will take a huge loss and de level if need be.

     

    - Make gear take damage and become un repairable. This bring us into making crafters always used full keeping gear in value and repeating raids for others beneficial to yourself as well.

     

    -For large raids where 100's are sure to die or raids where dying over and over to complete it is going to have to happen make these penalty free areas. This is needed to ensure content is actually attempted.