Ruar said:I get that some people don't like multi-boxing, but I can't understand the desire to limit someone else's gaming experience becuase of your preferences. If you don't like boxing don't box, but don't try to force someone else to your viewpoint.
I am absolutely for limiting someone else's gaming experience when it has the potential for impacting others in a negative way. It is undeniable that those who multibox are able to do things those who aren't cannot. It is insane to me that anyone would be okay with someone multi-boxing and being able to do group content, farm/camp boss spawns, etc. without the effort everyone else has to put into the game to do that content. It is blatant pseudo-pay-to-win. Anyone who says that those who multi-box would never camp/farm boss spawns and gear at the expense of groups of actual players lives in a fantasy land. Given this is supposed to be a social game where people have to work and put in effort to find, cultivate, and maintain relationships with real people, I don't see how this is even entertained as being something reasonable.
And the arguments for keeping auto-follow are pretty weak. Sure, things come up, and sometimes someone has to AFK for a bit during a raid or something, but if it's becoming such an inconvenience or regular occurrence that auto-follow is necessary, then maybe that person needs to plan better before doing group or raid content. It's a minor convenience feature that has more benefit being removed than staying. Of course dedicated multi-boxers will still be able to try to do their thing, but it will be much more difficult to effectively do so without auto-follow.
Multi-boxing doesn't benefit the overall community, stands in direct conflict to the spirit of this game, and gives an undeniable advantage to those who can spend the money. It doesn't belong in this game. Can't do group content because you don't feel like interacting with other players? That's no problem, do the single player content that's in the game during your downtime, or.. go play a single player game for a while. Being able to circumvent the normal effort other players have to put in to get groups to get the rewards of doing group content is totally unfair.
Sicario said:Ruar said:I get that some people don't like multi-boxing, but I can't understand the desire to limit someone else's gaming experience becuase of your preferences. If you don't like boxing don't box, but don't try to force someone else to your viewpoint.
I am absolutely for limiting someone else's gaming experience when it has the potential for impacting others in a negative way. It is undeniable that those who multibox are able to do things those who aren't cannot. It is insane to me that anyone would be okay with someone multiboxing and being able to do group content, farm/camp boss spawns, etc. without the effort everyone else has to put into the game to do that content. It is blatant pseudo-pay-to-win. Anyone who says that those who multi-box would never camp/farm boss spawns and gear at the expense of groups of actual players lives in a fantasy land. Given this is supposed to be a social game where people have to work and put in effort to find, cultivate, and maintain relationships with real people, I don't see how this is even entertained as being something reasonable.
Your confusion about this subject lies in the fact you see it as an individual instead of group content. If I multi-box and can do group content then all you have to do is make a group and do that same content. I garauntee the group will have a much easier time completing that content than someone multi-boxing. Actual players are people who multi-box just like it is actual players joining a group.
A social game doesn't have to be played socially. Look at all of the people who played necros in EQ and could farm content solo. There will be a preferred solo class in Pantheon and the good players will be able to complete group content on their own. Do you plan on banning them from soloing becuase you think they should be required to group?
I've joined groups in games with no effort at all. Go to the zone line, Pal 56 LFG, and I get a group. No effort at all required. I've also spent days working on developing friendships and getting invited to the same groups because we all were there at the same time and it worked out.
There is no way you can regulate how people play short of making the game so misreable they don't actually want to play. Then the question becomes how do you play a social game when you've driven everyone away who doesn't agree with how you think the game should be played?
Ruar said:Your confusion about this subject lies in the fact you see it as an individual instead of group content. If I multi-box and can do group content then all you have to do is make a group and do that same content. I garauntee the group will have a much easier time completing that content than someone multi-boxing. Actual players are people who multi-box just like it is actual players joining a group.
An individual multi-boxing is not analogous to a group of real players grouping together to do content. A group having an easier time is irrelevant, if it was so much easier to do that content with a group and super easy to get a group whenever someone wanted to do that content, there wouldn't be a reason for you to multi-box. By the sake of you multi-boxing, there has to be some other advantages you're gaining by doing so. And there certainly are. For example, when multi-boxing, you don't have to contend with rolling on drops. They're all yours. Once you get to an area, it's not that difficult when multi-boxing to just be able to hang out and camp spawns. This also has economic effects: you're able to farm these areas, keep all these drops, giving you a distinct advantage over other players. So no, it's not an equivalent experience.
A social game doesn't have to be played socially. Look at all of the people who played necros in EQ and could farm content solo. There will be a preferred solo class in Pantheon and the good players will be able to complete group content on their own. Do you plan on banning them from soloing becuase you think they should be required to group?
Of course, a social game doesn't have to be played socially all the time. A game of this nature designed well has both group and solo content, and during those downtimes or times when you don't feel that social, you can engage in the solo-oriented content of the game. Group content exists on a scale, a gradient, some classes will be able to handle more difficult encounters easier than other classes, that's to be expected. Necros and some other classes very well might be able to solo some encounters, but certainly not all, especially (hopefully, if designed well) the type of group content that typically requires a fuller group. If they're not cheesing, I have no problem with that, as the possibility to do this exists for all players who've purchased the game. There is a stark difference between that, and someone who's purchased multiple copies of the game to allow themselves solo access to content that normally requires multiple people.
I've joined groups in games with no effort at all. Go to the zone line, Pal 56 LFG, and I get a group. No effort at all required. I've also spent days working on developing friendships and getting invited to the same groups because we all were there at the same time and it worked out.
Then why multi-box? The fact is that getting a group isn't always easy, that's just the way it is. There is a distinct advantage in being able to multi-box, do group content, and keep all loot for yourself. These have broader consequences in the game, some of which I've already mentioned.
There is no way you can regulate how people play short of making the game so misreable they don't actually want to play. Then the question becomes how do you play a social game when you've driven everyone away who doesn't agree with how you think the game should be played?
I highly doubt disallowing multi-boxing will make most people miserable, in fact, it will be a net gain for them in their game experience. I'm sorry, if you're wanting to multi-box, maybe this game (a mass multiplayer online game) isn't the one for you.
Sicario said:Ruar said:Your confusion about this subject lies in the fact you see it as an individual instead of group content. If I multi-box and can do group content then all you have to do is make a group and do that same content. I garauntee the group will have a much easier time completing that content than someone multi-boxing. Actual players are people who multi-box just like it is actual players joining a group.
An individual multi-boxing is not analogous to a group of real players grouping together to do content. A group having an easier time is irrelevant, if it was so much easier to do that content with a group and super easy to get a group whenever someone wanted to do that content, there wouldn't a reason for you to multi-box. By the sake of you multi-boxing, there has to be some other advantages you're gaining by doing so. And there certainly are. For example, when multi-boxing, you don't have to contend with rolling on drops. They're all yours. Once you get to an area, it's not that difficult when multi-boxing to just be able to hang out and camp spawns. This also has economic effects: you're able to farm these areas, keep all these drops, giving you a distinct advantage over other players. So no, it's not an equivalent experience.
A social game doesn't have to be played socially. Look at all of the people who played necros in EQ and could farm content solo. There will be a preferred solo class in Pantheon and the good players will be able to complete group content on their own. Do you plan on banning them from soloing becuase you think they should be required to group?
Of course, a social game doesn't have to be played socially all the time. A game of this nature designed well has both group and solo content, and during those downtimes or times when you don't feel that social, you can engage in the solo-oriented content of the game. Group content exists on a scale, a gradient, some classes will be able to handle more difficult encounters easier than other classes, that's to be expected. Necros and some other classes very well might be able to solo some encounters, but certainly not all, especially (hopefully, if designed well) the type of group content that typically requires a fuller group. If they're not cheesing, I have no problem with that, as the possibility to do this exists for all players who've purchased the game. There is a stark difference between that, and someone who's purchased multiple copies of the game to allow themselves solo access to content that normally requires multiple people.
I've joined groups in games with no effort at all. Go to the zone line, Pal 56 LFG, and I get a group. No effort at all required. I've also spent days working on developing friendships and getting invited to the same groups because we all were there at the same time and it worked out.
Then why multi-box? The fact is that getting a group isn't always easy, that's just the way it is. There is a distinct advantage in being able to multi-box, do group content, and keep all loot for yourself. These have broader consequences in the game, some of which I've already mentioned.
There is no way you can regulate how people play short of making the game so misreable they don't actually want to play. Then the question becomes how do you play a social game when you've driven everyone away who doesn't agree with how you think the game should be played?
I highly doubt disallowing multi-boxing will make most people miserable, in fact, it will be a net gain for them in their game experience. I'm sorry, if you're wanting to multi-box, maybe this game (a mass multiplayer online game) isn't the one for you.
Should we just ban people from playing beyond a certain amount of hours too, since they're getting a huge advantage compared to others who can't play as much?
"I highly doubt disallowing multi-boxing will make most people miserable, in fact, it will be a net gain for them in their game experience. I'm sorry, if you're wanting to multi-box, maybe this game (a mass multiplayer online game) isn't the one for you."
I'm sorry, but as of right now, VR has made it quite clear that they do not plan on artificially limiting multi-boxing. If that is something you can not live with, maybe this game isn't for you? I don't understand how you can tell people that if they like multi-boxing that this game won't be for them. It literally makes no sense whatsoever.
oneADseven said:Should we just ban people from playing beyond a certain amount of hours too, since they're getting a huge advantage compared to others who can't play as much?
"I highly doubt disallowing multi-boxing will make most people miserable, in fact, it will be a net gain for them in their game experience. I'm sorry, if you're wanting to multi-box, maybe this game (a mass multiplayer online game) isn't the one for you."
I'm sorry, but as of right now, VR has made it quite clear that they do not plan on artificially limiting multi-boxing. If that is something you can not live with, maybe this game isn't for you? I don't understand how you can tell people that if they like multi-boxing that this game won't be for them. It literally makes no sense whatsoever.
I'm not advocating for total homogeny and parity, there will always be a varying range of time players can put into a game. The goal of good game design should be to bring as much equal opportunity as is reasonable.
You must not be opposed to things like cash shops, then, is that right? Because multi-boxing is pseudo-pay-to-win, as I've mentioned previously and demonstrated with a few examples in my previous posts on this topic.
Also, VR having a tentative stance on the topic doesn't mean there's no room for discussion and constructive criticism.
Sicario,
Not going to quote your last because I hate breaking things up like you did. I will address your last part first though. When I said the part about making the game misreable I didn't mean by just limiting multi-boxing. I meant by implementing anything you feel shoudln't be allowed simply because you don't like it. That's how you drive people away.
As for why I like multi-boxing, it's because I don't like people in general. There are times I just want to enjoy the game and not have to interact with someone else. Because I like the RPG part of the game while not aways liking the MMO part. "Go solo then" might be your response. Except I might not play a class that can solo. Then what? Usually the answer is "find another game then". Why? Why do I have to find another game because I like playing it for different reasons than you? Why does your opinion get to the be the one that matters when there are plenty of people like me who want to play differently? What makes you superior?
Back to the group content part. Your assumption is the content will be easy enough to deal with that an individual can handle playing multiple characters at once in order to make farming easy. I've played games where you couldn't effectively multi-box because the content was too challenging. Imagine trying to multi-box Sol B having to pull, tank, CC, and heal all at pretty much the same time. Now, you might be correct in saying that you can easily multi-box content that is no longer challenging but that leads us back to people being able to solo the same content as well.
In the end we are going to disagree on this issue. Multi-boxing takes a certain skillset and mentality that not everyone finds enjoyable. Similar to how some classes take a skillset and mentality that not everyone finds enjoyable. You seem to think the answer is to limit those individuals ability to play the game. I think it doesn't matter because if I really want to do that content I'll figure out a way to either beat them to the content, drive them away, or join them so I can get it done.
One thing I think people need to keep in mind is that multi-boxing does not equal botting. To multi box in pantheon the person will have to manually be controlling whatever number of characters they are using, which the devs have stated should be incredibly difficult if not impossible because of combat difficulty.
If someone can manage to do it all the more power to them. But they will not be allowed to run some program that automates anything for them.
@Rachael
Definitely, that is an important distinction and I'll make it clear again here that everything I have stated on this topic, in this thread or otherwise, has been in regards to multi-boxing, not botting. I am not talking about botting.
@Ruar
I want to preface that I agree this is probably a point where we won't be in agreement on, but I do appreciate our opportunity to discuss it. It's not my intention to make this stance of mine seem like it's just something I don't like and that's why I want it out of the game. I agree, that's a recipe for disaster. What I am trying to do is articulate a reasonable case against multi-boxing since I am convinced it provides too much opportunity for abuse.
I am all for supporting different playstyles and trying to accomodate as many people as possible, I think that diversity is core to the success of a game like Pantheon. Where that support ends for me is at the point where that accomodation opens up avenues for abuse and clear advantage gaps over the majority of other players, and multi-boxing provides these. I truly hope that Pantheon will be able to design combat that is so challenging that multi-boxing isn't really feasible. Realistically, though, I have to admit that I can imagine scenarios where multi-boxing could still be effective enough that it provides the distinct advantages I've outlined in some scenarios, even for content that is still challenging and provides great rewards that are profitable. In this case, I don't think it's unreasonable to entertain the thought of explicity disallowing multi-boxing, and removing tools that make it much easier (such as auto-follow).
And let me ask you this.. you say you don't like people in general, and multi-boxing is a way for you to enjoy the game. What if VR is successful in creating content and a combat system that makes multi-boxing entirely pointless? Would you not enjoy Pantheon? Would you not play it? Are you hoping VR doesn't create such a combat system? And if you think you would still enjoy it and that it would be a rewarding experience for you even with the loss of multi-boxing, is it really that much of a loss to close an avenue that is ripe for abuse and giving people clear advantage gaps over others through monetary spending?
@oneADseven
How is multi-boxing not pseudo-pay-to-win? There are a variety of cash shops, and many which have been deemed pay-to-win revolve around enabling someone to become much more powerful than they would be without paying. Multi-boxing is paying extra to be able to become powerful enough to do content that you normally couldn't do by yourself, thus being able to farm areas and keep all loot drops. It is absolutely pseudo-pay-to-win. It fits the very definition of it.
I'd like to see a mullti-box server ruleset where anyone can multi all they like
Personally though, I would prefer to play a server with a non-multibox ruleset
Might be cool though if Pantheon took a look at P99's idea for IP exemptions for non-multiboxing servers, where you can apply for an IP exemption for brother, wife, room mate or whatever, but if caught "...just logging my wife's account real fast for buffs" or multi-ing in any way, then let the ban hammer drop, just like on P99
@oneADseven
So you're okay with the idea of a cash shop that allows people to buy extra skills from other classes that they can use when soloing group content? Or even one where they can buy extra characters to control? And you don't know if multi-boxing has never affected your experience, it has wider consequences for the in-game economy. Plus, have you ever gone to kill a named spawn or to clear a dungeon with a group you've helped put together, only to find a multi-boxer there already camping it/killing that content? I sure have, and I know others have as well. The argument that it doesn't affect anyone else is silly and just not true.
Maximis said: Someone is obviously scarred from a past event. You will not convince me that me and my group of friends has any more "right" to a mob than some schmuck with 3 laptops and a PC playing a concerto on an organ. As far as I am concerned they had to level their toons the same as I did. Besides that, what gives me the right to say I deserve it more than him. This whole argument sounds like a toddler throwing a fit.
If the design of combat and encounters is even somewhat well thought out, a single person with 4 accounts wont be able to compete with you and your three friends. But as far as I'm concerned they are welcome to try.
[edit]
For the pay to win arguments, I dont see a multi-boxer as remotely the same as a cash shop. A cash shop allows a person to open their wallet and instantly gain power they didnt earn in game terms. A multi-boxer (in the absence of a cash shop) doesnt have to earn power for one character. They have to earn power for 2, 3, 4 or more. If they want to spend 2, 3 or 4X the time and effort it takes them to keep that many characters outfitted and their skills advanced, fine by me and no skin of my back. They aren't even throwing the game economy completely out of whack like cash shops do. They are X-number of characters they are buying and selling and contributing to the economy, none of them circumventing it or inflating it.
Had to step out but I thought some more about the pay to win idea. I disagree. Pay to win is where everything else is equal and someone uses RL money to get an item that is not available to someone else in game. This item then gives the person who paid for it a clear advantage that can never be achieved by the person doing the work in game.
Multi-boxing puts the user at a disadvantage though because they will never perform to the same level of individual players working together. The argument I keep seeing you make is obtaining loot alone, but every other player in the game has access to that loot and can obtain that loot easier than the person multi-boxing. A group of players will clear content faster and safer than someone multi-boxing the same area.
So the pay to win argument doesn't hold water.
The only argument you can make about giving an individual an advantage is because they don't have to deal with finding, and listening, to other people in a group. The individual can play the game at their own pace, doing the content they want, and doesn't have to worry about someone else interefering in their game. If that is truly an advantage though it means a game based around social contact is inherently flawed since it's an advantage to NOT have to participate in the social aspects of the game.
Maximis said:Someone is obviously scarred from a past event. You will not convince me that me and my group of friends has any more "right" to a mob than some schmuck with 3 laptops and a PC playing a concerto on an organ. As far as I am concerned they had to level their toons the same as I did. Besides that, what gives me the right to say I deserve it more than him. This whole argument sounds like a toddler throwing a fit.
You're welcome to resort to ad hominems, although I don't think it's particularly befitting for a healthy discussion.
This comes down to whether or not someone is okay with pay-to-win systems, and if you're someone who's for that, that's fine. It doesn't mean everyone is, and in fact, it seems the majority sentiment of people wishing to play this game is that pay-to-win has no place in Pantheon. I'm making the case that multi-boxing fits into this category, and as such, should be viewed and treated as such a system. It's not that much more effort leveling up characters for multi-boxing when you're already leveling up, anyways.
oneADseven said:@ Sicario Because allowing a class to buy spells they can't use is the same thing as multi boxing, right? How far are you willing to reach to try and justify your position?
It's fairly similar, actually, yes, especially in a world of non-instanced dungeons.
Ruar said:Had to step out but I thought some more about the pay to win idea. I disagree. Pay to win is where everything else is equal and someone uses RL money to get an item that is not available to someone else in game. This item then gives the person who paid for it a clear advantage that can never be achieved by the person doing the work in game.
Multi-boxing puts the user at a disadvantage though because they will never perform to the same level of individual players working together. The argument I keep seeing you make is obtaining loot alone, but every other player in the game has access to that loot and can obtain that loot easier than the person multi-boxing. A group of players will clear content faster and safer than someone multi-boxing the same area.
So the pay to win argument doesn't hold water.
The only argument you can make about giving an individual an advantage is because they don't have to deal with finding, and listening, to other people in a group. The individual can play the game at their own pace, doing the content they want, and doesn't have to worry about someone else interefering in their game. If that is truly an advantage though it means a game based around social contact is inherently flawed since it's an advantage to NOT have to participate in the social aspects of the game.
Pay-to-win doesn't necessarily have to be just an item. It could be a buff, access to new skills, whatever. It's an advantage obtained through monetary means, one that, when comparing two players, one has a distinct advantage gained through real life monetary spending. Multi-boxing is exactly that.
The fact that grouped players might be more effecient only really equalizes the situation when dealing with instanced dungeons and zones. All it takes is a few areas/dungeons in the open world that a multi-boxer can figure out how to navigate efficiently enough to get to a situation where this person has a clear advantage and can farm easily, not needing to split any loot dropped. Although a group of players has the same access to that loot and can achieve it more effeciently, that doesn't really matter when someone can sit on these mobs with multiple toons to the point where the group is denied an attempt at all. Sure, you might say that won't happen, and fair enough, you're a nice guy who isn't going to do this. However, others absolutely have in other games, and it will happen here, too. I think the pay-to-win argument holds more water than you realize.
Feyshtey said:For the pay to win arguments, I dont see a multi-boxer as remotely the same as a cash shop. A cash shop allows a person to open their wallet and instantly gain power they didnt earn in game terms. A multi-boxer (in the absence of a cash shop) doesnt have to earn power for one character. They have to earn power for 2, 3, 4 or more. If they want to spend 2, 3 or 4X the time and effort it takes them to keep that many characters outfitted and their skills advanced, fine by me and no skin of my back. They aren't even throwing the game economy completely out of whack like cash shops do. They are X-number of characters they are buying and selling and contributing to the economy, none of them circumventing it or inflating it.
Hey Fey, these are some good points.
You're right that a person who is multi-boxing has to earn power for multiple characters, this does take work. Once they've put in this effort though, they are at point where their monetary spending has indeed resulted in them gaining power that others who didn't spend don't have. I would argue that this effort also isn't a 1:1 ratio for each new character, often times, people who multi-box (especially those with an intention of farming) are leveling these characters at the same time. It's not totally equivalent, it's not that much more effort other than managing each character. Also, for those multi-boxing with an intent to farm, they only really need to outfit their characters up to a certain point, just enough to farm.. so the items that are dropping and would normally be used by other characters are able to be sold/broken down for rare mats/whatever. These other characters that are being multi-boxed typically support the main character, so they're not consuming equally, thus, inflation happens. Also, with someone able to farm and not have to split loot, it's giving that individual person more buying power, and that opens up economic manipulation. Of course, this will eventually happen regardless, but we can mitigate this by making it difficult to solo farm content that would normally require a group. Disallowing multi-boxing would be an effective move.
Ugh... edits.
How is an individual sitting on a spawn camping the mob any different than a group of players sitting on a spawn camping the mob? What makes one pay to win and the other just normal business?
You do realize that individual has to gear up six characters the same way as a group has to gear up their six members. The individual boxing has to spend more time in fact since he's less efficient than the group.
So please, explain how the individual has any kind of advantage over a group of players other than the fact he doesn't have to deal with people.
@oneADseven
Yes, that is what I am saying, but more specifically that those who multi-box are supporters of P2W.
@Ruar
I know the edits can be annoying, but I'm trying not to double post and to keep things cleaner. I've addressed some of your questions in my edit responding to Fey.
@Maximis
You're welcome to re-read what I've written, then. Grouping is not analogous to multi-boxing. Group content is designed around the expectation that a group of six individual people are coming together to socialize and do content that gives drops which reward the effort of that socialization, and it's split amongst individuals who complete that content. Multi-boxing allows one person to do this group content, gaining all the rewards which they can keep for themselves.
There are plenty of games that are actually designed for one person to control groups of characters, such as RPGs like Tyranny, Pillars of Eternity, Divinity: Original Sin, etc.
It seems that people are incapable of discussing our game mechanics without arguing over opinions, so this thread will be closed.
These are development forums folks, not normal game forums or platforms to argue over what you like best, this is a tool for us to gather information and it is nearly impossible for me to read through these to find acceptable reasonable pieces of feedback without coming across arguments, and that is the quickest way to get a thread closed if multiple people engage in arguments over opinions.
We have made our stance very clear on this subject, no amount of arguing will change it, I suggest those involved please take a moment to stop and think before posting in other threads as they will suffer the same consequences if this continues.
These are all completely different subjects:
Multi boxing
Pay to Win
Botting
Gold Farming
Yet people continue to entangle them in their arguments like they are similar or somehow related to each other, which is just misinformation and creating unnecessary arguments.