I think I've posted this about 10 times before, but it's worth noting again. Nowhere has any game ever in the history of MMORPGs said that it's ok to bot/use programs to automate characters, yet it has still happened in every single MMORPG that has ever been created, and it has begun happening with more frequency and a larger impact in the past few years.
You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That being said, VR have already taken the stance that boxing will be allowed, so in turn, botting will also be allowed (maybe not legally, but I can guarantee you it will happen)
Like Kilsin said about 10 posts ago. Pulled from the Pantheon FAQ
Our reaction to multi-boxing is to try something first before we even entertain the idea of artificially restricting it: We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive, and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is, if not impossible, extremely difficult and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group.
Rallyd said:You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That being said, VR have already taken the stance that boxing will be allowed, so in turn, botting will also be allowed (maybe not legally, but I can guarantee you it will happen)
False. And so are most of your other conclusions.
Multi-boxing is not synonomous with botting. My friends, my wife and I have all multi-boxed in multiple MMOs and not one of us has ever used a botting program. Granted, we don't try to run a full group thru dungeons because that would be pretty much impossible depending on the game. But that has little to do with allowing multi-boxing and is specific to allowing unattended automation of characters, or allowing 3rd party applications to influence the behavior of a game client.
You mentioned Blizzard and their inability to stop botting. What you failed to mention is that the botting that is so destructive to WoW is largely impactful because of individual characters automatically farming mobs and harvesting nodes. While group-wide botting does occur, it's the prevalence of single characters autonomously consuming contested content and farming massive resources for the AH that's so frustrating for the average gamer.
Yes, botting will occur in Pantheon. VR's ability to identify and ban offenders of all 3rd party tools will be key to it's long-term success. But the decision to allow or disallow multi-boxing wouldnt change that one damn bit.
Feyshtey said:Rallyd said:You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That being said, VR have already taken the stance that boxing will be allowed, so in turn, botting will also be allowed (maybe not legally, but I can guarantee you it will happen)
False. And so are most of your other conclusions.
Multi-boxing is not synonomous with botting. My friends, my wife and I have all multi-boxed in multiple MMOs and not one of us has ever used a botting program. Granted, we don't try to run a full group thru dungeons because that would be pretty much impossible depending on the game. But that has little to do with allowing multi-boxing and is specific to allowing unattended automation of characters, or allowing 3rd party applications to influence the behavior of a game client.
You mentioned Blizzard and their inability to stop botting. What you failed to mention is that the botting that is so destructive to WoW is largely impactful because of individual characters automatically farming mobs and harvesting nodes. While group-wide botting does occur, it's the prevalence of single characters autonomously consuming contested content and farming massive resources for the AH that's so frustrating for the average gamer.
Yes, botting will occur in Pantheon. VR's ability to identify and ban offenders of all 3rd party tools will be key to it's long-term success. But the decision to allow or disallow multi-boxing wouldnt change that one damn bit.
The tools with which VR can use at their disposal to stop botting drastically increase in effectiveness when boxing is illegal, you are right however that botting will occur either way, but its impact can be drastically reduced with the added tools.
Rallyd said:I think I've posted this about 10 times before, but it's worth noting again. Nowhere has any game ever in the history of MMORPGs said that it's ok to bot/use programs to automate characters, yet it has still happened in every single MMORPG that has ever been created, and it has begun happening with more frequency and a larger impact in the past few years.
You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That is just patently and demonstrably false. Botting exists as a result of being able to sniff network packets and read memory addresses. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to run multiple game clients simultaneously. It has been a cat and mouse game between hackers and software companies since day 1.
Rallyd said:The tools with which VR can use at their disposal to stop botting drastically increase in effectiveness when boxing is illegal, you are right however that botting will occur either way, but its impact can be drastically reduced with the added tools.
No, it doesnt make a difference one damn bit. Botting is a function of 3rd party utilities being able to reach into the game client. A game client. One. Single.
Yes, if that utility has the ability to reach into the game client it can allow botting of multiple accounts. But the bot functionality is a requirement first. You cant bot multiple accounts unless a bot exploit already exists.
lol you guys clearly have no idea how to bot, and have never done it. There is literally no game out there that cannot be botted, no matter what measurements are taken to stop it, not a single one. You either make it harder or easier, the easier it is the more frequently it will happen. Without disallowing boxing, your IP address and mac address can't be used against you. Not to say these things can't be hidden or changed, but utilizing these 2 things can drastically change the amount of abuse.
itvar said:Rallyd said:I think I've posted this about 10 times before, but it's worth noting again. Nowhere has any game ever in the history of MMORPGs said that it's ok to bot/use programs to automate characters, yet it has still happened in every single MMORPG that has ever been created, and it has begun happening with more frequency and a larger impact in the past few years.
You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That is just patently and demonstrably false. Botting exists as a result of being able to sniff network packets and read memory addresses. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to run multiple game clients simultaneously. It has been a cat and mouse game between hackers and software companies since day 1.
This is correct, I really wish people would research this and get the correct information before stating opinion and assumptions as facts.
Multi-boxing and Botting are not synonymous, that would be like saying everyone who owns a gun will shoot someone, or everyone who owns a car will run someone else down, it just isn't true, just because a small minority go the extra length to get around security measures to automate the process doesn't mean it is mutually exclusive to multi-boxers or that everyone who multi-boxes does it.
Kilsin said:itvar said:Rallyd said:I think I've posted this about 10 times before, but it's worth noting again. Nowhere has any game ever in the history of MMORPGs said that it's ok to bot/use programs to automate characters, yet it has still happened in every single MMORPG that has ever been created, and it has begun happening with more frequency and a larger impact in the past few years.
You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That is just patently and demonstrably false. Botting exists as a result of being able to sniff network packets and read memory addresses. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to run multiple game clients simultaneously. It has been a cat and mouse game between hackers and software companies since day 1.
This is correct, I really wish people would research this and get the correct information before stating opinion and assumptions as facts.
Multi-boxing and Botting are not synonymous, that would be like saying everyone who owns a gun will shoot someone, or everyone who owns a car will run someone else down, it just isn't true, just because a small minority go the extra length to get around security measures to automate the process doesn't mean it is mutually exclusive to multi-boxers or that everyone who multi-boxes does it.
Regardless of the symantics, the main point I believe Rallyd is trying to make is that he would like to play on a server with an alternate ruleset that does not allow multi-boxing.
And I agree. Multi-boxing in EQ1 led to a number of issues that I wouldn't like to see again in Pantheon.
Wellspring said:Kilsin said:itvar said:Rallyd said:I think I've posted this about 10 times before, but it's worth noting again. Nowhere has any game ever in the history of MMORPGs said that it's ok to bot/use programs to automate characters, yet it has still happened in every single MMORPG that has ever been created, and it has begun happening with more frequency and a larger impact in the past few years.
You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That is just patently and demonstrably false. Botting exists as a result of being able to sniff network packets and read memory addresses. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to run multiple game clients simultaneously. It has been a cat and mouse game between hackers and software companies since day 1.
This is correct, I really wish people would research this and get the correct information before stating opinion and assumptions as facts.
Multi-boxing and Botting are not synonymous, that would be like saying everyone who owns a gun will shoot someone, or everyone who owns a car will run someone else down, it just isn't true, just because a small minority go the extra length to get around security measures to automate the process doesn't mean it is mutually exclusive to multi-boxers or that everyone who multi-boxes does it.Regardless of the symantics, the main point I believe Rallyd is trying to make is that he would like to play on a server with an alternate ruleset that does not allow multi-boxing.
And I agree. Multi-boxing in EQ1 led to a number of issues that I wouldn't like to see again in Pantheon.
A number of issues that they are quite aware of, and working on ways to make "boxing" less than ideal. Pretty sure that's been stated several times. I don't see a need for a special rule-set server at this point ... wait until the game comes out and see if the issues that plagued EQ1 reappear in Pantheon. It is known, however, that the development team is aware of many of the concerns that you speak of and have been actively working on a combat system that will noticebly decrease the effectiveness of multi boxers.
If for whatever reason the combat system/design isn't enough to prevent multi-boxing, I hope VR will go one step further and explicitly state it will be disallowed. Also, to help prevent it, I'm all for doing away with the auto-follow feature. Multi-boxing just has too much potential for abuse and is unfair to other players, in addition to existing contrary to the desired community spirit of this game.
Sicario said:If for whatever reason the combat system/design isn't enough to prevent multi-boxing, I hope VR will go one step further and explicitly state it will be disallowed. Also, to help prevent it, I'm all for doing away with the auto-follow feature. Multi-boxing just has too much potential for abuse and is unfair to other players, in addition to existing contrary to the desired community spirit of this game.
Instead of going one step further and disallowing it altogether, how about they continue to tweak content and follow their original plan of making a boxed account less than ideal efficiency wise? That's like saying "If the combat system isn't difficult enough, we're just going to disallow heals from now on." That isn't fixing the problem it's just performing open heart surgery on something that needed a band-aid for the scrape on it's knee.
oneADseven said:Sicario said:If for whatever reason the combat system/design isn't enough to prevent multi-boxing, I hope VR will go one step further and explicitly state it will be disallowed. Also, to help prevent it, I'm all for doing away with the auto-follow feature. Multi-boxing just has too much potential for abuse and is unfair to other players, in addition to existing contrary to the desired community spirit of this game.
Instead of going one step further and disallowing it altogether, how about they continue to tweak content and follow their original plan of making a boxed account less than ideal efficiency wise? That's like saying "If the combat system isn't difficult enough, we're just going to disallow heals from now on." That isn't fixing the problem it's just performing open heart surgery on something that needed a band-aid for the scrape on it's knee.
Trust me, I would absolutely 100% prefer that, however, realistically, that type of tweaking and altering very well could be akin to open heart surgery. We're talking about adjusting the game's combat design/system, and that can be a difficult process that takes time and resources. VR could also very well decide they've achieved the type of combat system they desire (one that isn't so active and challenging that it alienates more casual players or is contrary to their original vision), and thus decide that tweaking it any further isn't something they wish to do. The statement you've quoted from me applies to those situations.
If boxing is allowed, and as of now, it will be according to everything they've ever stated, and the FAQ, then I will be boxing 3-4 accounts come launch, and if you're even the slightest bit competitive, you will have to too.
It's not 1999 anymore, people don't just box because they think its fun, people box because it's necessary to maintain a competitive edge. I would personally not like to box 3-4 accounts, but I guarantee you I will if its allowed come launch simply because I won't stand by and watch others out-progress me because I didn't. If that's the situation you want, then allow it.
And please don't tell me you can't effectively box characters because combat will be too "involved". The amount of "involved" that combat would have to be to prevent me from boxing effectively would take this game to a button smashing korean game, and then I probably don't want to play it in the first place.
Rallyd said:If boxing is allowed, and as of now, it will be according to everything they've ever stated, and the FAQ, then I will be boxing 3-4 accounts come launch, and if you're even the slightest bit competitive, you will have to too.
It's not 1999 anymore, people don't just box because they think its fun, people box because it's necessary to maintain a competitive edge. I would personally not like to box 3-4 accounts, but I guarantee you I will if its allowed come launch simply because I won't stand by and watch others out-progress me because I didn't. If that's the situation you want, then allow it.
And please don't tell me you can't effectively box characters because combat will be too "involved". The amount of "involved" that combat would have to be to prevent me from boxing effectively would take this game to a button smashing korean game, and then I probably don't want to play it in the first place.
I don't believe the situation will be as dire as you're making it out to be, but I do believe that a hard stance against multi-boxing would be appropriate. It goes against the spirit and nature of the game.
I also am fully against VR openly stating / allowing multi boxing. Whether they use macros or not (they will use macros take off the blinders) it is cheating. I don't see how someone could argue that doing something that should require two people with one person is not cheating. I hope at some point they change their stance because the only driving factor behind this is $$$$$$$$.
To be honest I am not sure how VR can possibly even endorse this in a game where they are looking to go back to old school roots and foster teamwork, cooperation and group play. It goes completely against what they are trying to achieve in this game.
The problem with rules against boxing is how to enforce them. That takes time and a lot of resources. How do you know that somebody is boxing? Same IP? Could be his buddy using the same connection. This is the real reason that they don't want a rule against it. It leads to shitstorms and unhappy customers on both sides.
It would be nice if they would just make boxing a bit harder. Make sure only one instance of pantheon is running on any computer. That alone would make boxing a lot less convenient and since most people are lazy, that would reduce the number of boxers by a lot. Of course this approach wont stop them all.
Wellspring said:Kilsin said:itvar said:Rallyd said:I think I've posted this about 10 times before, but it's worth noting again. Nowhere has any game ever in the history of MMORPGs said that it's ok to bot/use programs to automate characters, yet it has still happened in every single MMORPG that has ever been created, and it has begun happening with more frequency and a larger impact in the past few years.
You cannot use the argument that it's ok to box, as long as you don't bot, because they are one in the same. No gaming company to this day, even the juggernaut Blizzard has been able to effectively remove the ability to bot whilst still allowing people to box. I am not sure how you guys/gals believe Visionary Realms is going to change this with their small funding without stating that boxing is illegal.
That is just patently and demonstrably false. Botting exists as a result of being able to sniff network packets and read memory addresses. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to run multiple game clients simultaneously. It has been a cat and mouse game between hackers and software companies since day 1.
This is correct, I really wish people would research this and get the correct information before stating opinion and assumptions as facts.
Multi-boxing and Botting are not synonymous, that would be like saying everyone who owns a gun will shoot someone, or everyone who owns a car will run someone else down, it just isn't true, just because a small minority go the extra length to get around security measures to automate the process doesn't mean it is mutually exclusive to multi-boxers or that everyone who multi-boxes does it.Regardless of the symantics, the main point I believe Rallyd is trying to make is that he would like to play on a server with an alternate ruleset that does not allow multi-boxing.
And I agree. Multi-boxing in EQ1 led to a number of issues that I wouldn't like to see again in Pantheon.
It isn't semantics, it is basically condemning a large group of people for the crimes of a minority and linking the practise of manually controlling 2-3 characters (anymore was extremely difficult if you were legitimately boxing) with automated bots/scripts and gold farming, which are completely different, even if we disallow boxing they will still gold farm, sell accounts, items, gold and script/bot, so it solves nothing, they will just set up networks of PCs with single accounts on each to bot in groups.
We will not be splitting our community up any more than necessary with numerous ruleset servers, we have stated that a few times, it does more harm than good in games like these, people need to accept that they won't agree with or love everything in Pantheon and play for the things they do like, we won't be creating a server for every person that has a different opinion on one or more of our systems, features or mechanics.
Our combat isn't a copy of EQ, VG or any other game, so comparing experiences in those games is pointless, Pantheon is a lot different in many aspects and we are making it with the knowledge of all these past negative experiences like gold farming and botting in mind, as experienced gamers and developers, so sitting in here discussing opinions and blowing this topic out of proportion on and off for 24 pages because some people don't like boxing and some do, isn't going to solve anything, it just creates hyperbole and starts arguments over opinions, these are development forums, not your typical gaming forums, so discussions like this are not helpful nor do they contribute to helping us with the game, they take away from it and slow me down collecting and gathering quality information for the Devs, which is why I usually jump in with blunt/firm replies, as I am the one who has to read through all of these opinion based discussions and waste time that could be better spent elsewhere. /not salty at all, I promise ;)
We have given our official answer and until you folks get in-game and try it for yourself, no one will have any clue as to what we have in place for this or how hard it will be to actually box pantheon characters/classes, so the best bet would be to save it for testing and then provide constructive feedback on systems and mechanics like this, when you folks actually know what is going on and can experience it first hand, not through past memories in other games, some of which are 10-20 years ago as it does not help anyone.
If you folks are going to continue discussing opinions, please at least respect each other and move on if you don't like what others have to say, also don't state opinions as facts as that helps no one.
Often miss my other characters if I have a few of them :-(
Wish I could give my characters an assignment while I actively play the other.
The cleric contributing to the town population health.Binding wounds and all that
Bard could boost the moral by joining some street musicians
Not all have to be class specific assignments
You could also assign them simpler tasks like resource gathering,keeping traderoads safe
Or help carry the supplies for merchants,helping with construction of a new building,armor,weopons
Helping to populate town while you actively play another character.
A type of passive training for the one you are currently not playing.This allows you to admire your own character in town as you pass by.As it helps to create vibrant cities.
Other players could then use emotes if they want to give your character kissies too as they pass by.
When you log on to the character that has been participating in world population,
you'll get a list of the players that interacted with your character while it was active in town .
Telling you they would like to get to know you.
Rallyd said:lol you guys clearly have no idea how to bot, and have never done it. There is literally no game out there that cannot be botted, no matter what measurements are taken to stop it, not a single one. You either make it harder or easier, the easier it is the more frequently it will happen. Without disallowing boxing, your IP address and mac address can't be used against you. Not to say these things can't be hidden or changed, but utilizing these 2 things can drastically change the amount of abuse.
That was kind of my point. Botting will happen no matter what. But your statement that allowing boxing somehow makes Botting easier is just flat out false. It only takes one person to circumnavigate your protection and all of a sudden it is available for everyone. You are always one step behind - that is just the nature of things. This is why DRM is almost universally useless and reviled.
The issue of botting is one that requires a modest technological approach, but also in game GM enforcement. You can also use heuristics to analyze server logs. Preventing two or more clients from opening buys you maybe 10 minutes more for the hacker, assuming they don't just use a farm of cloud VMs.
Abyway, the official word has already been given, at this point back and forth are just academic.
I am all for options . If a player wants to spend additional money for multiple accounts that is there choice.
The questions I have are we truely discussing a real multibox (two screens , two keyboards etc) or are we discussing the options for things like ISboxer // Ogre etc. This is where the slippery slope comes in and im not going to debate either of the above programs at all but this needs to be addressed.
The reason I ask this is simple , if this game supports even basic commands such as logfiles ,waypoint or loc commands things will be automated if its not a true 2 computer set up.
I think if you want to allow boxing , remove basic commands such as /follow. This forces a person to truely control both toons and in the grand scheme of things prevents abuse.
Yes, more of a pita but prevents 100 % #verbatim commands and waypoint cordination.
Realistically, prompt responses from CS are the best deterrent, in addition to traditional cheat detection.
Rules are only as good as how well they can be enforced. When VR says "use of 3rd party applications for automation are not allowed", what that means is "there will be repercussions if we find out that you are using 3rd party application". That's a major if.
The problem is when you report someone who's obviously botting (warping to harvesting nodes) and they're still there 3 days later doing the same thing. Usually because the CS team is overwhelmed, or because of apathy. Regardless, having an educated team of GMs who aren't braindead and aren't just following a script, and actually know how to identify common types of cheating is going to work best.
Education is important because a lot of exceptionally uneducated players will send a plethora of false reports.