Ephemeros said:
I searched for banana and found a post with bananas.
I dont think you can really stop people from multi-boxing, so i guess more power to them if they are able to manage it. There is this one guy on WoW that multiboxes 40 characters and just walks through the enemy town killing everyone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNrgbAlo_LA
And that behavior is actually,well, applauded?
I must have grown old very fast, since people can find it fun making programs that really does give them advantages over other people. Both in progression and farming items. I honestly do not understand why anyone can claim that they have fun playing so many toons, that they can easily fulfill a group role by themselves when using a program that is designed towards giving them the benefits and none of the drawbacks of a MMO.
For me to see, having multiple accounts is fine. (I said that further up) However, if you need a program to aid you in controlling your chars, then it is really nothing more than a Pay To Win feature and if allowed, Pantheon might as well put up a Item mall feature.
Yes, just my (very old) view.
Velmeir said:
Ephemeros said:
I searched for banana and found a post with bananas.
I dont think you can really stop people from multi-boxing, so i guess more power to them if they are able to manage it. There is this one guy on WoW that multiboxes 40 characters and just walks through the enemy town killing everyone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNrgbAlo_LA
And that behavior is actually,well, applauded?
I must have grown old very fast, since people can find it fun making programs that really does give them advantages over other people. Both in progression and farming items. I honestly do not understand why anyone can claim that they have fun playing so many toons, that they can easily fulfill a group role by themselves when using a program that is designed towards giving them the benefits and none of the drawbacks of a MMO.
For me to see, having multiple accounts is fine. (I said that further up) However, if you need a program to aid you in controlling your chars, then it is really nothing more than a Pay To Win feature and if allowed, Pantheon might as well put up a Item mall feature.
Yes, just my (very old) view.
I respect your opinion but I want to clear up the "Pay to Win" comment, this is absolutely not the case, you gain no advantage from boxing at all, it is a disadvantage in most cases, I have boxed multiple characters for many years, I had 7 accounts in VG and 4 were full subscriptions and I got no advantage at all other than allowing me to continue playing at a slower pace with limited options and a lot of micromanaging to just stay online and have fun with a game that I enjoyed and could not find a group during my Australian time zone.
Whenever a group became available, you will find the majority of boxers (including myself) will stop what they are doing and join for company and more efficient experience, grinding, fun, rewards etc. Multi boxing is just a way to stay online instead of logging off. If VG had not of allowed multiboxing, it would of lost half of it's veteran population and a huge chunk of subscription revenue for all the extra accounts we paid for.
In games like EQ, VG and Pantheon that are all group centric, there is no way to stay online and have fun unless you can group with friends/guildies/other players or Craft (or some form of tradeskilling), during off peak times that can cause a lot of people to simply log off as soloing is either too hard or just not satisfying enough, allowing people to support the game with more accounts and log 1-2 more characters in to heal/dps/tank will allow that player to continue having fun at a much slower pace than if they were to join a full group on players but I would rather a much slower and more micromanaging experience to still have fun and enjoy the game that I paid for without getting frustrated and logging off plus I know my extra subscriptions support the company making the game.
Even though I am a VRI staff member, I will be rolling multiple accounts to box in off peak times, if anyone here see's me and wants to group up /shout Kils join us for XX dungeon and I will drop what I am doing and come and join you, then when you all log off and go to sleep, I will go back to boxing at a slower and less efficient pace so I can still enjoy the game during the quiet periods ;)
While I know boxing exists in many games, when I think of true boxing I think of EverQuest. Thats because few games since EQ have been as conducive to boxing. In most other games, boxing is risky, tedious and inefficient without 3rd party programs which should be a bannable offense, imo.
I think if Pantheon does combat right, boxing should be more trouble than its worth in most situations.
in EQ1 i boxed 2 accounts, just to fill the time or to do those long camps for UR gear drops to sell. in VG i didnt box as i figured it more hassle than it was worth. but in Pantheon i will still have 2 accounts even if one is just a Port / mule account. However i do agree that botting / scripting should not be easily doable and hope there is some plan to at least make it hard for any gold farmers to bot armies.
Nolaen said:
Rivacom said:
Nolaen said:
I am against multiboxing. Its a MMO , if you wanna do stuff with yourself just go and play solo games.
People just multibox so they can do content that is meant for more players alone.
Again, I think your judging without knowing reasons why people actually multibox. I know for past games, a lot of users multiboxed because they were a huge altaholic but didn't have time to level 20 alts. So it allowed them to level a couple of characters at a time. Does this make them not social? no some of the most social members have been multiboxers.
Thats quite a minority. Saying I box because I dont have enough time to play more chars ... kinda doesnt sound right to me.
The SK Box armies are true. I have not only heard stories about them but seen them myself. It was on the Fippy Darkpaw progression server when old Raiddragons been easily farmed by SKs. Dragon was dead even before he appeared.
I'll admit, I was in the same boat as you one time. I was 100% against it. But goto some of the communities that multi-box, there are plenty of legit reasons to multibox. Infact the community for it is pretty strong.
Rivacom said:
Nolaen said:
Rivacom said:
Nolaen said:
I am against multiboxing. Its a MMO , if you wanna do stuff with yourself just go and play solo games.
People just multibox so they can do content that is meant for more players alone.
Again, I think your judging without knowing reasons why people actually multibox. I know for past games, a lot of users multiboxed because they were a huge altaholic but didn't have time to level 20 alts. So it allowed them to level a couple of characters at a time. Does this make them not social? no some of the most social members have been multiboxers.
Thats quite a minority. Saying I box because I dont have enough time to play more chars ... kinda doesnt sound right to me.
The SK Box armies are true. I have not only heard stories about them but seen them myself. It was on the Fippy Darkpaw progression server when old Raiddragons been easily farmed by SKs. Dragon was dead even before he appeared.
I'll admit, I was in the same boat as you one time. I was 100% against it. But goto some of the communities that multi-box, there are plenty of legit reasons to multibox. Infact the community for it is pretty strong.
I am sure there's a strong community of people who use cheat programs in games too but that doesn't make it right. To me multi-boxing is cheating/exploiting when you use programs that simplify playing multiple characters at once. If the game intended you to do this it would be an option within the interface.
Vaildez said:
Rivacom said:
Nolaen said:
Rivacom said:
Nolaen said:
I am against multiboxing. Its a MMO , if you wanna do stuff with yourself just go and play solo games.
People just multibox so they can do content that is meant for more players alone.
Again, I think your judging without knowing reasons why people actually multibox. I know for past games, a lot of users multiboxed because they were a huge altaholic but didn't have time to level 20 alts. So it allowed them to level a couple of characters at a time. Does this make them not social? no some of the most social members have been multiboxers.
Thats quite a minority. Saying I box because I dont have enough time to play more chars ... kinda doesnt sound right to me.
The SK Box armies are true. I have not only heard stories about them but seen them myself. It was on the Fippy Darkpaw progression server when old Raiddragons been easily farmed by SKs. Dragon was dead even before he appeared.
I'll admit, I was in the same boat as you one time. I was 100% against it. But goto some of the communities that multi-box, there are plenty of legit reasons to multibox. Infact the community for it is pretty strong.
I am sure there's a strong community of people who use cheat programs in games too but that doesn't make it right. To me multi-boxing is cheating/exploiting when you use programs that simplify playing multiple characters at once. If the game intended you to do this it would be an option within the interface.
I guess theres the line that has to be defined for Pantheon then, what is considered cheating? As Multiboxing mainly just syncs two or more windows with keystrokes. It doesn't really aid them in actually progressing in the game any more/less then a average player. You can multi-box 100 characters and still wipe on level 1 stuff.
I don't like boxing to be allowed in a game but it is not for some moralistic reason - I just don't like that some people will choose to box rather than join a real group. Part of the magic of early MMOs was that, yeah, sometimes you get a real sh*t group and get pissed off and spend 3 hours wiping and running back to your corpses or spirit shards or whatever; but this is also what creates a close, skilled, tight community. But if people can box, that social aspect is slowly eroded, and there are ultimately fewer groups available.
So, that's all I will ever say about it since it's such a hot button on forums.
Actually I'm pretty sure if you multi-box 100 characters and they are all synced to the same keyboard and all the same class, a level 1 mob will represent absolutely zero challenge to you, nor will any mob that is your level ever. So not sure where you got the idea that a level 1 mob will beat 100 players.
I first started boxing because it was a ton of fun to roleplay both good and evil.. and I loved the challenge of doing both at the same time. The old FV server one toon per account rule started my need to have multiple accounts, and with more than one computer close at hand it was easy to start boxing.
Then I boxed because just playing a cleric was not enough of a challenge in a lot of settings. Boxing on a raid sometimes meant having a certain required class when a key person did not show.
Then I boxed because with populations diminishing and my play time limited, I could not afford to wait around until a viable group came on line. I was often doing content others had already finished and were not interested in repeating.
I also boxed because to finish certain tradeskill items it took several classes, and I liked making things for people.
Now I box because teaching my husband - who has had two strokes- the game requires a group, and it is less stress on him to not always have other people in that group.
I have never used third party software to box, no... that would make it less fun. I dislike seeing people use bots, but in a properly designed game they should not be able to monopolize content so hopefully this will be the same level of annoyance as watching someone cheat on their golf score.
Would I rather group with other people instead of boxing.. of course. Usually I happily drop boxes for a real person.
Do I see there are times when boxing makes the game more viable.. yes I do.
I can tell you, with moderate surety, that MOST multi-boxers:
1. Tended to be players who played a fair ammount (certainly more than 'casual' by todays standards),
2. They usually had issues with finding groups:
Often geographical (EU vs NA, Aus vs Anywhere)
or Low-Population server (RP or PvE ruleset or both).
3. Had Alts which were 'backup' or 'Essential' classes. Eg MT (Raids), CLE (for rez), SHA (for duo)
4. Only multi-boxed when needed.
In any event ....
'these are not the Multi-boxers you are looking for'
when it comes to stopping this activity.
The people you are looking to stop are the (tiny minority) who are using them to farm or exploit the system in some way (your gold sellers etc). But, without advanced IP tracking or other technologies, it is almost impossible to stop multi-boxers directly (though some of the button-pressing/botting can be made 'harder' to accomplish). What you may end up doing is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
You actually don't want to penalise the 'social' multi-boxer, as they are a relatively small minority of players (far below 3-5% ... thats beyond 2 sigma for you stats people). The number of people likely to be multi-boxing anti-socially is probably beyond 3 sigma (0.3% or less).
Since these represent such a tiny minority,
rather than stopping the multi-boxing (MEANS)
you would do better to focus on the results they achieve (RESULTS).
This way the Terms and Conditions (T&Cs) can state 'we do not approve of artificial aids such as multi-boxing if they damage the game experience for other players' or some such (translated into legalese ofc) thus warning prospective multi-boxers that the MEANS will not be regulated, but the RESULTS will be. Since ALL games collect data on players, and META data on largeer events (duration of Raids, who collected most cash etc) it is almost trivial to have weekly stats that use statistics to locate potential abusers. A human eye can drill intot eh numbers to quickly see if the suspicion is valid and ban/punish the offending account where needed.
Thus you address the underlying concenrs with multi-boxing, rather than having to do 'a King Canute' and uneccessarily attempt to address the means.
TLDR : Don't get bogged down with the method, concern yourself with the 'problem' it causes.
Thanakos said:I'm not a fan of boxing. It allows a single person to get around group content. A friend was banned on P99 for boxing.
At the same time, I don't expect a subscription-based game to do anything about it.
P99 is a different story. They specifically outlaw boxing and by default if 2 accounts ever connect from the same IP both will be kicked offilne. You have to make a request for that IP block to be lifted, and you are told very clearly at multiple stages that the request is being granted but there will be consequences if you are caught boxing.
That's not a level of concern in most MMO's. When there's a profit motive (which doesnt exist in P99) there's income potential in at least turning a blind eye to boxing.
As Evoras has stated, it's probably more productive (and profitable) to make it clear that harm to your fellow players is what will have consequences.
Evoras said:In any event ....
'these are not the Multi-boxers you are looking for'
Surprised how many times this pops up, and I usually don't chime in but I'm just off night shift and my best communication skills surface about now..
Yes, exactly Evoras. I am a boxer, always have, always will be. I pay for all my accounts, I log on planning to find a group, if I dont find one I bring my own to play, not steamroll, not farm, not griefing.. Just playing.
I am not going to lie and say I have never boxed, of course I have, and yeah it was only to farm mobs that gave some sort of xp only until more people showed up or I was able to find a group. I wasn't able to steam roll any content as that was almost impossible in EQ with the way mobs pathed and agroed. This all came about because I played long, long hours, ridiculous long hours, so in off peak times, groups were scarce or was just not the right mix in the group we had. Yes, i paid for every account as well. Alt- Tabbed windows as I didn't have two computers :(
2 comments:
1) most of the posts here are: the way i want to do it is ok, it is only bad when people do it in a way i dont like. (gold farmers bad, but you farming items to sell and make money much faster is somehow different?)
2) sorry Kil, it ABSOLUTELY makes things easier. if it didnt, people wouldnt do it. the point i think you were making is it is easier to have 5 other real people than 5 boxed toons, which is *usually* the case. but the fact is it allows someone to level multiple toons at the same time, so geometric xp gaining, kill mobs they would not be able to solo, kill mobs faster than they would be able to solo, collect resources/gold/gear that they would not be able to solo, collect same faster than solo...
personally, i couldnt care about boxing, kind of sucks when they have programs that lag others as they go through the zone, or when they are swarming over content that actual players need, but that was uncommon at least in vanguard. good thing about pve, even having other players that hack rarely affected my gameplay.
I used to multibox A lot in EQ.
I only had 1 account but could log in 5 other Guildies(I had access to 14 accounts).
I could play 4 at the same time and the other 2 just stood there for buffs and leeching exp/aa-exp.
Used 3 computers to do it, on all 3 I had 2 Characters logged in and 1 computer i kept on Tank and 1 computer I kept on a Healer, and the other comp I TAB switched between a CC-er and a dpser.
The Reason I multiboxed in Everquest was:
1. Every Epax you needed quests/keys/flags to get to raid content and sometimes you had to level and level new AA.
Even though we where a Hardcore guild most people have normal jobs so they could not be online that much, so for some I got keys/exp etc so that they can raid.(Honestly I think every top guild in EQ does this to there members).
2. Its fun to try named mobs/raids with just your self and see if you can beat it.
3. Why take a tank that has normal gear and stats, if you can multibox a tank that has the best Raidgear in game.(it makes things easier)
This only Applies on hard content when you strugle with a low hp/armor tank. and can not find a decent one.
4. When you get used to multiboxing its a lot of fun and its kinda boring to keep playing 1 Character.
5. Also back in the day when I started multi-boxing, I kinda needed it since there where no merc's and it was sometimes hard to find the right people for stuff, other then guildies.
Do I think that there should be Multi-boxing in Pantheon????.
The key thing what made EQ so good is the community and the social gameplay.
So people should focus on joining people rather then Multi-boxing, making new friends and helping eachother out is way more fun.
But do not forget that Multi-boxing is not for everyone, I am sure that 95pct can not multibox efficient.
And that most Multi-boxers rather join real groups like Kills says.
Is it exploiting? No, since you can do it also with a group, exploiting is if you take advantage of some bugged mechanics.
Also every account is paid for, so people will play fair.
However it might be a form of pay to win, but i dont see it that way since Multi-boxers did it pure for the fun and the need. (but that might have changed anno 2016)
Also it does not enhanced hackers/botters since they will always find a way to exploit.
So I am for Multi-boxing. but i dont mind if its not in the game.
Evoras said:I can tell you, with moderate surety, that MOST multi-boxers:
1. Tended to be players who played a fair ammount (certainly more than 'casual' by todays standards),
2. They usually had issues with finding groups:
Often geographical (EU vs NA, Aus vs Anywhere)
or Low-Population server (RP or PvE ruleset or both).
3. Had Alts which were 'backup' or 'Essential' classes. Eg MT (Raids), CLE (for rez), SHA (for duo)
4. Only multi-boxed when needed.
In any event ....
'these are not the Multi-boxers you are looking for'
when it comes to stopping this activity.
The people you are looking to stop are the (tiny minority) who are using them to farm or exploit the system in some way
Perhaps this was true 15 years ago, but I don't think it will hold true today.
We live in a different time now. Today, most players will do whatever it takes to get the upper hand in an online game.
In a game that revolves around social challenges (success through interaction and grouping), being able to circumvent the social part is a huge advantage.
This may not be the case in your average game today because most of the content can be completed solo. That won't be the case with Pantheon should it be possible to effectively play multiple characters at once.
There ARE ways you can "action" folks for boxing etc. but I have to tell you - there are a few good reasons why you don't. There are ways to track folks that are botting - and that would require a dedicated team once the servers went live. The question is how much of an influence on the game do these types of MMO behaviors - as anti-social as they are - affect the gameplay of everyone else, and is it effectting them enough for the expenditure that would be required to combat this type of behavior...
Dullahan said:Evoras said:I can tell you, with moderate surety, that MOST multi-boxers:
1. Tended to be players who played a fair ammount (certainly more than 'casual' by todays standards),
2. They usually had issues with finding groups:
Often geographical (EU vs NA, Aus vs Anywhere)
or Low-Population server (RP or PvE ruleset or both).
3. Had Alts which were 'backup' or 'Essential' classes. Eg MT (Raids), CLE (for rez), SHA (for duo)
4. Only multi-boxed when needed.
In any event ....
'these are not the Multi-boxers you are looking for'
when it comes to stopping this activity.
The people you are looking to stop are the (tiny minority) who are using them to farm or exploit the system in some way
Perhaps this was true 15 years ago, but I don't think it will hold true today.
We live in a different time now. Today, most players will do whatever it takes to get the upper hand in an online game.
In a game that revolves around social challenges (success through interaction and grouping), being able to circumvent the social part is a huge advantage.
This may not be the case in your average game today because most of the content can be completed solo. That won't be the case with Pantheon should it be possible to effectively play multiple characters at once.
Yeah I am kinda worried about that now to.
It's a different erra, and we used to the old days.
Obliquity said:Does multi-box support social gameplay ? Yes or No
Answer that question and you have your answer if it should be allowed.
The real question is : Does someone on these forums have two accounts and argue with himself?
But to answer the first question, I don't think it support the social gameplay, but I do not think it hinder it either. That being said, I think it's pretty "sad" that a player feels the need to multi-box. I understand why people does it (I did it back in EQ), but it was to go around issues in the game - such as starting a group (pretty darmn hard for a few classes), playing off-hours, farming stuff that no one want to do, etc. I do not know which game mechanics could help to get "ride" of the need of multi-boxing. I know EQ tried mercenaries, but the be honest I always prefered grouping with multi-boxer than having a party of NPC.
Also, I would like to point out that most arguments against multi-boxer are people greifing or cheating through bots, but these aren't exclusif to multi-boxer. For me this are two separated topics.
I can understand why people want to do it. I am a UK player and play in the day-time sometimes, which means around 3am to 6am US time. It can be *very* quiet (in lots of MMOs). In a game that is group-centric it's tough to pretty much have to play midnight to 4am to get best chance of grouping.
Also, if Pantheon *doesn't* allow boxing, please be set up at launch (pre-launch in fact) to somehow enable my partner and I to play from the same IP...
(I asked in EQ P99 3 months ago. Nothing. Might still be playing if my other half was. Not now).
Kilsin said:Velmeir said:
Ephemeros said:
I searched for banana and found a post with bananas.
I dont think you can really stop people from multi-boxing, so i guess more power to them if they are able to manage it. There is this one guy on WoW that multiboxes 40 characters and just walks through the enemy town killing everyone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNrgbAlo_LA
And that behavior is actually,well, applauded?
I must have grown old very fast, since people can find it fun making programs that really does give them advantages over other people. Both in progression and farming items. I honestly do not understand why anyone can claim that they have fun playing so many toons, that they can easily fulfill a group role by themselves when using a program that is designed towards giving them the benefits and none of the drawbacks of a MMO.
For me to see, having multiple accounts is fine. (I said that further up) However, if you need a program to aid you in controlling your chars, then it is really nothing more than a Pay To Win feature and if allowed, Pantheon might as well put up a Item mall feature.
Yes, just my (very old) view.
I respect your opinion but I want to clear up the "Pay to Win" comment, this is absolutely not the case, you gain no advantage from boxing at all, it is a disadvantage in most cases, I have boxed multiple characters for many years, I had 7 accounts in VG and 4 were full subscriptions and I got no advantage at all other than allowing me to continue playing at a slower pace with limited options and a lot of micromanaging to just stay online and have fun with a game that I enjoyed and could not find a group during my Australian time zone.
Whenever a group became available, you will find the majority of boxers (including myself) will stop what they are doing and join for company and more efficient experience, grinding, fun, rewards etc. Multi boxing is just a way to stay online instead of logging off. If VG had not of allowed multiboxing, it would of lost half of it's veteran population and a huge chunk of subscription revenue for all the extra accounts we paid for.
In games like EQ, VG and Pantheon that are all group centric, there is no way to stay online and have fun unless you can group with friends/guildies/other players or Craft (or some form of tradeskilling), during off peak times that can cause a lot of people to simply log off as soloing is either too hard or just not satisfying enough, allowing people to support the game with more accounts and log 1-2 more characters in to heal/dps/tank will allow that player to continue having fun at a much slower pace than if they were to join a full group on players but I would rather a much slower and more micromanaging experience to still have fun and enjoy the game that I paid for without getting frustrated and logging off plus I know my extra subscriptions support the company making the game.
Even though I am a VRI staff member, I will be rolling multiple accounts to box in off peak times, if anyone here see's me and wants to group up /shout Kils join us for XX dungeon and I will drop what I am doing and come and join you, then when you all log off and go to sleep, I will go back to boxing at a slower and less efficient pace so I can still enjoy the game during the quiet periods ;)
Unfortunately Kilsin, what used to be true, is no longer so.
Given the advances in computing power, programming languages and code writing, numerous software based tools now allow multiboxing to be taken to levels unimagined. In EQ for example, you can now routinely see entire 40+ character raids being executed by a few, and sometimes even single players that are using highly scripted bot accounts. Raid bosses and their drops are now fairly easily monopolized and farmed by extreme multi-boxers.
I was a happy multiboxer going back to UO, EQ and VG, but what I have seen from modern multi-boxing is disturbing.