I modified the updated June 2022 Class/Race matrix image to better visualize options by role and starting continent (see https://imgur.com/gallery/qtijPir). There is a distinct unevenness to how many class/race combo options there are available on each continent, with Whitethaw having 18, Reignfall having 23, and Kingsreach having 30. And while the total number of options available isn't a perfect guage for population, it will influence it, and this suggests there will be uneven population Personally, I like the imbalance since I think it feels more real and it creates oppurtunities for players to seek out their preference.
I don't know how hard travel will be, but I think this kind of imbalance will help spur travel and exploration. For instance, all three Kingsreach races can be Rangers but none of the Whitethaw races can, so some Kingsreach Rangers will probably want to travel to Whitethaw since it might be easier to find groups.
What do you thing of the distribution of races in Terminus? Especially in regard to how Kingsreach has two races with most class options available, Reignfall has one, yet Whitethaw's race with the most options has only half available. And are you planning on 'moving' to a different continent with your character?
Great chart Counterfleche, thanks for posting it. I've made a few of my own charts to get overviews of various aspects of classes, races, weapons & gear. None of them looked nearly as good as this one though :)
I'm planning a bunch of characters to play and Ranger is one of them. I intend to Craft & Harvest a lot, as well as play multiple alts, so I haven't given much thought to situations where I might have trouble finding a group. Should I run into that with my Ranger, I will certainly consider a trip to the southern lands.
I think the sophisticated players will opt for the more racial characters and in so doing, fight hard and well to level up just to be able to travel with their own limitations. This will prove invaluable as they will finally come to a large population of casuals who, playing the "easier" races or those with more class options, will group with said racials and these racials will end up telling them how to play their classes that they were not aware of. Causing the "popular" races to look in small envy NOT because of gear, but because of playerability and THIS will be a strong lesson. The humans may have the best gear, better than those same level ogres but man those ogres can defeat what we humans could not on a good day and THEY were telling US how to play. And then this human with MUCH worse gear than ours who was friends with these ogres kicked our butts nine-ways till sunday in the arena for fun before they went off to group which we then BEGGED to go along with just for a few more pearls of wisdom.
The imbalance will spur emigration from tight job markets to lands with more opportunities.
Handy chart, thx.
Good chart.
Of course - some combinations will be far more popular than others. Thus 10 times as many people may start as humans of class X than as ogres of class Y. So balance between number of characters may not be even remotely related to balance by number of combinations.
dorotea said:Good chart.
Of course - some combinations will be far more popular than others. Thus 10 times as many people may start as humans of class X than as ogres of class Y. So balance between number of characters may not be even remotely related to balance by number of combinations.
I agree that the number of options available won't be an exact match for actual population, but there will still be some correlation and it does help us get a rough idea. I've been planning on changing faction and switching continents and a big part of why I made the chart was to help me visualize the best places to go.
I considered this distribution before when imagining what it would be like to first start playing Pantheon at Launch. I wanted a character on each island, starting with a Halfling "Scout," either Rogue, Ranger or Druid to start exploring Terminus and learnimg the game, a Dwarven Paladin because I must, and finally a Dark Myr Summoner as my Main.
Now that I am thinking about Alpha, I want to preserve as much discovery for Launch as possible. As Underwater concerns me greatly, my Alpha Test characters will be my Main's Dark Myr Family Tree. That way it makes sense that my Main would start knowing that area very well, having grown up there, and could incorporate stories from Alpha into his personal Lore.
That leaves most of Terminus to discover after Launch.
Counterfleche said:dorotea said:Good chart.
Of course - some combinations will be far more popular than others. Thus 10 times as many people may start as humans of class X than as ogres of class Y. So balance between number of characters may not be even remotely related to balance by number of combinations.
I agree that the number of options available won't be an exact match for actual population, but there will still be some correlation and it does help us get a rough idea. I've been planning on changing faction and switching continents and a big part of why I made the chart was to help me visualize the best places to go.
Agreed. And by the time we pick our races and classes for release we will have had years of alpha and beta and will have a far better idea how good each starting area is and how popular the various races and classes are.
Balanz said:I considered this distribution before when imagining what it would be like to first start playing Pantheon at Launch. I wanted a character on each island, starting with a Halfling "Scout," either Rogue, Ranger or Druid to start exploring Terminus and learnimg the game, a Dwarven Paladin because I must, and finally a Dark Myr Summoner as my Main.
Now that I am thinking about Alpha, I want to preserve as much discovery for Launch as possible. As Underwater concerns me greatly, my Alpha Test characters will be my Main's Dark Myr Family Tree. That way it makes sense that my Main would start knowing that area very well, having grown up there, and could incorporate stories from Alpha into his personal Lore.
That leaves most of Terminus to discover after Launch.
It's comments like yours and how I felt after seeing the breakdown by role per continent which makes me really feel what makes Pantheon different. It doesn't feel like a game to me nearly as much as it feels like a world. I find myself caught up in the fantasy of the setting. Few games have really been able to really make me feel this sense of wonder and imagination, and I find myself increasingly excited to inhabit Terminus.
Great chart Counterfleche it does bring up some interesting questions:
I know a lot of this is lore based but balanced player bases on all continents should be a priority or am I concerned about nothing?
chenzeme said:Great chart Counterfleche it does bring up some interesting questions:
- Is the playable size of each continent roughly the same?
I don't know, but I'm hoping not. Variation and variety helps the game feel more like a real world and less like an intentionally balanced game world.
If so (1), will there be an imbalance in player populations on each continent given the choices available?
I really hope so. This will encourage travel / migration and will also provide higher population areas for those who prefer that as well as lower population areas for those who prefer that.
Is it wise to only have one role/race combo for a specific class in a continent (Cleric on Whitethaw for instance)?
I think so. It makes for more scarcity, making the class more noticible when played. It also makes for a somewhat different average group makeup on each continent, which will make each feel more distinct. And it also creates oppurtunities for migration.
Will the player base on Kingsreach result in a population that is too great for the continent and too small on Whitethaw?
I doubt that. It will verly likely have a higher population, but MMOs also tend to find a bit of a balance. If one area is too crowded, players will tend to leave it.
Should the player race/role combos on Kingsreach be thinned out a bit or increased on Whitethaw (or indeed left as is)?
No, I don't think so. Kingsreach has two major races with all or almost all class options while Whitethaw has none. This difference will further help to give each a distinct feel. Asymmetry should be encouraged, in my opinion.
I know a lot of this is lore based but balanced player bases on all continents should be a priority or am I concerned about nothing?
A fair amout of imbalance is my preference. But only time and testing will tell. I'm sure that if a large imbalance exists and has a negative effect, it will get fixed.
Counterfleche said:I modified the updated June 2022 Class/Race matrix image to better visualize options by role and starting continent (see https://imgur.com/gallery/qtijPir).
What do you thing of the distribution of races in Terminus? Especially in regard to how Kingsreach has two races with most class options available, Reignfall has one, yet Whitethaw's race with the most options has only half available. And are you planning on 'moving' to a different continent with your character?
First off, well done on that matrix. That really is impressive.
I'm not overly concerned about how this is distributed unless the Whitethaw and Reignfall races have too many barriers that would prevent early migration of the races to form more complete groups. Humans, with every class available to them, do not need to go searching for other races to fill class gaps. Neither to elves, really. Halflings though? Unless the Bard definitely makes it in before release, and isn't as solid a crowd control class as the Enchanter, Halflings will have a difficult time. The same is true for Skar, if the Necro also isn't a very solid crowd control and isn't in before release
No, my real concern has always been the ever increasing possibility that the quality and quantity of content between the continents will be vastly different. VR has spent all these years working on Kingsreach and still aren't finished with it. What I don't want to see is a repeat from EQ1 where Reignfall and Whitethaw are the Odus and Faydwer of Pantheon...newbie/low level continents which then force you to spend the rest of your life on Kingsreach, the Antonica of Pantheon, because there isn't the same scope and scale of content.
Hell, the world map we've seen (which VR says time and time again is not set in stone) has always shown Reignfall to be much smaller in size than Kingsreach. That right there leads me to believe my fears about Kingsreach being the primary continent for all content will be true.
But will this make me change from a Skar Shaman? No, because I believe Skar will be these least likely played race and to see a high level Skar running around the world will be far more special than seeing a high level Elf or Human. Those will be a dime a dozen because those will be the easiest races to play.
The norm in MMOs is to have a nice variety of content in all the starting areas for a while. After a while the developers concentrate on one or two areas and find ways to channel everyone there. Even if "everyone" consists of factions that started out as kill-on-sight enemies. It simply is too convenient to focus on one area rather than one per race or even one per faction in a game with only two or three factions.
VR may not do this but it is so much the norm I wouldn't bet on that.
Vandraad said:Hell, the world map we've seen (which VR says time and time again is not set in stone) has always shown Reignfall to be much smaller in size than Kingsreach. That right there leads me to believe my fears about Kingsreach being the primary continent for all content will be true.
I always thought Reignfall was the largest continent...
Vandraad said:First off, well done on that matrix. That really is impressive.
...No, my real concern has always been the ever increasing possibility that the quality and quantity of content between the continents will be vastly different. VR has spent all these years working on Kingsreach and still aren't finished with it. What I don't want to see is a repeat from EQ1 where Reignfall and Whitethaw are the Odus and Faydwer of Pantheon...newbie/low level continents which then force you to spend the rest of your life on Kingsreach, the Antonica of Pantheon, because there isn't the same scope and scale of content.
/100%
I notice that recent development has largely focused on tools for creating content, and recent hires emphasize content creation.
Further, staff armed with these tools can refine zones after launch.
Very nice chart. Over the years I have read tons of comments from players who say they don't play humans and want more options for races other than the standard ones. I've read as much hear as well, so I'm thinking all the continents will have decent representation.
For me though, I always start off as a Human Paladin/Holy Warrior or Cleric/Priest. I'm just bland like that...lol. Soo many folks have stated that they want to try the traditional races because of the lore and cities currently presented, but I think VR will put equal amounts of effort into the other continents and races. As a result, folks will settle into their favorites once the lore and city development shifts to the other races/continents. Folks will be just as interested in Skar and Archai cities as they are in the current ones becasue VR already has already laid the groundwork to make those races/cities just as cool and enigmatic.
Alas, I don't play 'evil' races, so no matter how very interesting the lore and city is, I will enjoy watching those streams and be heavily interested, but I won't be amongst those folks making characters in Reignfall. I will definitley adventure and explore there though.
2 points I'll make.
Many are asking about population diversity based off things like (for instance) clerics only being available in a certain spots and what not. To this I'd say when you make Diversity Uniform, it isn't diverse anymore. Keep it broke up.
and second, as for travel for players joining up from continent to continent, as long as global channels are available, like Taxi for instance, this won't be a problem after the first few days. There will be porter classes that will "race" to a level where they can get and use the transport spells to facilitate this travel from newbie area to newbie area. And this should be encouraged. Those that get there "the firstest with the mostest" will benefit the mostest. This also should be encouraged. It'll only happen the first time once (per server of course)...
