dudimous said:as for travel for players joining up from continent to continent, as long as global channels are available, like Taxi for instance, this won't be a problem after the first few days. There will be porter classes that will "race" to a level where they can get and use the transport spells to facilitate this travel from newbie area to newbie area.
I'm sure when Wizards & Druids get to where they can port people around, some of them will certainly make a business of it. From the bits of description I've heard when the subject came up in streams and chats though, the likelihood of it happening in 'the first few days' seems pretty non-existent IMO. The first few weeks seem fairly optimistic as well, at least in terms of easily finding someone available when you need.
I think VR needs to make a specific process for friends to get together early on, even if it is designed just for starting players, to not be an ongoing pathway of easy travel for all players as they level up.
We don't know at what level the Classes will get their portal ability. Further, VR has recently told us some details about their plan for the order of how a player learns their spells. 1-10 is all about learning how to effectively use their character's basic abilities, 10-20 is all about learning to use their abilities in groups. Within this description, it's easily possible that portal spells might not be learned until 10 or later. If Stones or Gateways are located in difficult areas to get to, rather than conveniently outside major cities -which is a definite possiblity with Pantheon's focus- the spells wouldn't really be useful in the early levels.
Additionally, it has been said a few times that at first, a Wiz or Druid will only be able to transport himself from the location of one Gateway or Wandering Stone to another. With greater levels/mastery, he will be able to summon a portal instead, so others can go with. And summoning a portal anywhere - not just at a Stone or Gate, is an even higher level of usage. So no matter what level you first get the ability to portal, the ability to go into the 'taxi' business will take a fair while longer. Then there is the small detail that no Gate or Stone can be portalled to until one has physically travelled there and 'attuned' to it. So the taxi needs to have traveled widely on other continents to be broadly useful.
By launch, the more ambitious players will already know (from Beta) how and what is required for them to get basic port spells. Weeks? Maybe for most. But never underestimate what elite players who have blocked off chunks of time and mapped out their progression will be capable of. No one could accuse EQ at launch of being a "race to the top" friendly leveling system. Yet when I was just getting into my teens I met my 1st (but not my last) 50. He was in a guild that would go on to become AfterLife. Within days ports will be available in Patheon...
dudimous said:Weeks? Maybe for most. But never underestimate what elite players who have blocked off chunks of time and mapped out their progression will be capable of.
Within days ports will be available in Patheon...
My post was in response to you saying "as for travel for players joining up from continent to continent, as long as global channels are available, like Taxi for instance, this won't be a problem after the first few days."
I know perfectly well what an 'elite player' can do, and how much more a guild can do if it works around the clock. That doesn't have much bearing on the fairly large number of people who start Pantheon at release with friends who all want different races, and all wish to start playing together right away, or very soon.
When the very first portal gets summoned is irrelevant. No matter when that happens, there won't be a readily available 'business' for all those players to get a summoned portal to take them from their starter town to the closest destination to their friends' starter town - on another continent - in the first week. No matter how much you disregard the obstacles.
"That doesn't have much bearing on the fairly large number of people who start Pantheon at release with friends who all want different races, and all wish to start playing together right away, or very soon."
If they want so badly to play together - wouldn't one or two of them be willing to compromise and play a race or class that wasn't their first choice in order to play together? Or is "you are my friend but I am unwilling to give up anything at all in order to do something with you" the norm these days?
Jothany said:I know perfectly well what an 'elite player' can do, and how much more a guild can do if it works around the clock. That doesn't have much bearing on the fairly large number of people who start Pantheon at release with friends who all want different races, and all wish to start playing together right away, or very soon.
Likely I will be of the group of friends that all want to play different races. I seriously hope VR doesn't rob me of the first great adventure of low level traveling/exploring across massive dangerous lands to join up with my friends playing different races. (yes I would be the first to volunteer for such an adventure) all for the sake of those less adventurous that just want it handed to them.
The thing that skews this the most is the assumption that humans are boring, and to make up for that boringness they can be any class. I typically avoid playing humans in games if there is another viable option to play the class I want. I don't think the continents need to be spread out evenly, but if they did for some reason you could take some classes from humans that require a mystical connection like Druid, Shaman, Dire Lord, and Summoner.
Also there are a lot of class/race combinations that minmaxers will avoid because they don't synergize well.
I hope there will the the 'caravan' travel that was originally planned, where you can basically log out at the caravan in one city and, 8+ hours later when you log back in, you're in a different city. But I also hope this isn't available for the first 10 - 15 levels so people who want to meet up with friends will have to walk to a meeting point.
My current plan is start with a Dark Myr and find a group to adventure to a different area. Ideally a different continent, but that may require a lot of faction-earning. I'm hoping each continent will have a few neutral outposts with trainers and basic services. If so, I forsee ad hoc groups forming with the simple goal of making it to that area. From there, the groups can split up and players can join up with friends or with others who want to keep traveling.
Counterfleche said:I hope there will the the 'caravan' travel that was originally planned, where you can basically log out at the caravan in one city and, 8+ hours later when you log back in, you're in a different city. But I also hope this isn't available for the first 10 - 15 levels so people who want to meet up with friends will have to walk to a meeting point.
My current plan is start with a Dark Myr and find a group to adventure to a different area. Ideally a different continent, but that may require a lot of faction-earning. I'm hoping each continent will have a few neutral outposts with trainers and basic services. If so, I forsee ad hoc groups forming with the simple goal of making it to that area. From there, the groups can split up and players can join up with friends or with others who want to keep traveling.
I would guess that a caravan physically moving through the game would ba a lot more palatable than a "fast travel" option among this community. Like the inter-continental boats from EQ1
dorotea said:If they want so badly to play together - wouldn't one or two of them be willing to compromise and play a race or class that wasn't their first choice in order to play together? Or is "you are my friend but I am unwilling to give up anything at all in order to do something with you" the norm these days?
So if 4-5 friends all want different races for their mains, you think all but one are going to accept playing a class other than the one they prefer? I don't consider that an insignificant sacrifice, given that the choice could last for the duration of their time in Pantheon. It's just not the mindset I equate to today's 'instant gratification' gamers.
Maybe they will, who knows. If a group of friends can play in their respective starter areas for a week and then all join up, then it probably won't be an issue. If it takes closer to a month - for the majority of people in that situation, not for a few 'elite' players - then I see some loss of subscribers who don't necessarily dislike the game but aren't willing to invest that long before than can join their gaming friends.
Zorkon said: I seriously hope VR doesn't rob me of the first great adventure of low level traveling/exploring across massive dangerous lands to join up with my friends playing different races... all for the sake of those less adventurous that just want it handed to them.
I would MUCH prefer to have such an adventure be considered "impossible" or "too Dangerous" Oh the glory attached to such a feat!
Well then you should have no problem with my suggestion, because any mechanic of the type I'm suggesting would be entirely at the choice of the players involved. If you want to take a trip across Terminus that makes the Journey of Odysseus look like a row on the pond, you're absolutely free to do that. You might even talk me into trying it, if you catch me on a good day.
Thats the type of "QOL" change that ruins a game by removing adventure and accomplishment.
Since it wouldn't deprive anyone of the adventure and accomplishment they want, I really don't think giving one free teleport to a new character, while still level 1, from their starter zone to the starter zone of their friend is really going to be the ruination of Pantheon.
Jothany said:Since it wouldn't deprive anyone of the adventure and accomplishment they want, I really don't think giving one free teleport to a new character, while still level 1, from their starter zone to the starter zone of their friend is really going to be the ruination of Pantheon.
I think it depends more on how the different races view each other. I expect at higher levels it will be a lot easier to find your friends and group up, maybe there is even a city where everyone is welcome. But if the races have more tension then even if you get to your friend at level 1 the best you can do is grind because the other race won't give you any of the quests your friend has, or let you use their vendors etc...
Heebs said:You appear to have a few extra portraits in the "totals" section.
My favorite one is the "Weird-Al" race
Telepath said:Heebs said:You appear to have a few extra portraits in the "totals" section.
My favorite one is the "Weird-Al" race
Not an extra race, just a portrait of a human Bard.
Jothany said:Zorkon said: I seriously hope VR doesn't rob me of the first great adventure of low level traveling/exploring across massive dangerous lands to join up with my friends playing different races... all for the sake of those less adventurous that just want it handed to them.I would MUCH prefer to have such an adventure be considered "impossible" or "too Dangerous" Oh the glory attached to such a feat!
Well then you should have no problem with my suggestion, because any mechanic of the type I'm suggesting would be entirely at the choice of the players involved. If you want to take a trip across Terminus that makes the Journey of Odysseus look like a row on the pond, you're absolutely free to do that. You might even talk me into trying it, if you catch me on a good day.
Thats the type of "QOL" change that ruins a game by removing adventure and accomplishment.Since it wouldn't deprive anyone of the adventure and accomplishment they want, I really don't think giving one free teleport to a new character, while still level 1, from their starter zone to the starter zone of their friend is really going to be the ruination of Pantheon.
I would have a problem with it, that single teleport option takes the "accomplishment" and turns it it to foolishness. I one refuses to use the path of least resistiance. The journey can take you through dangerious places but that doesn't mean you should plot your course through the middle of the highest zones possable. Again, that would be foolishness.
The adventure/accomplisment is replaced with a button click.
Vandraad: VR has spent all these years working on Kingsreach and still aren't finished with it.
Yeah... not quite accurate and a little light on detail. VR have been spending the time on making the tools and infra-structure to create Pantheon, not just Kingsreach. Once these tools are complete then the world creation will be a lot quicker. Kingsreach has been a testing ground for the generation of these tools. There is no point in creating an entire world when the tools are not there to do so. You have to spend the time with the basics first. You need a controllable area to test those tools out. Once that is in place, then the world can be created. Yes it has been a long time, but no, it has not just been spent just making Kingsreach.
As Balanz points out, the content creation phase is underway and other areas are being hinted at and beans dropped in each content release. Also VR will not want to show us much of other areas so that it is all new and shiny for release. Alpha will only contain what VR decide is important to test. It will not be the entire world and may actually be restricted to what we have already seen and little more. Beta, may have a bit more, but I would imagine that the entire world will not be shown to us until beta is coming to a conclusion or even at launch.
Vandraad: Hell, the world map we've seen (which VR says time and time again is not set in stone) has always shown Reignfall to be much smaller in size than Kingsreach.
Yeah... I just dont agree at all. Iksar's inclusion of the world map above, shows that visually, Reighfall is larger than Kingsreach. But we just dont know the actual play size of each zone except that Kingsreach is big and takes a long time to run across!
Vandraad: ...But will this make me change from a Skar Shaman? No, because I believe Skar will be these least likely played race and to see a high level Skar running around the world will be far more special than seeing a high level Elf or Human. Those will be a dime a dozen because those will be the easiest races to play.
There may well be more humans and elves around than Skar but this does not necessarily equate to humans or elves being easier to play. We just dont know. Where there is the greatest density of players there will be greater competition for resources and mobs and equipment, thus actually making it harder to get through levels. People will also want to experiment and try out each race to see which suits them best.
If each race is competitive and interesting, I think there will be a board range of races at high levels.
@Jothany Unfortunately, it isn't just a matter of "you do you". The 'achievement' *is* diminished when others view it as neautrally optional, or even negatively a waste of time.
There will no doubt be lots of things in the game that some view as a bit of a 'barrier' and would rather ignore, but, in a shared world with concepts of prestige and achievement almost always being relative to others' prestige and achievement, to allow some to just 'skip' what they don't fancy doing does have a detrimental effect on others.
Even with more concrete things like obtaining wealth and gear, to allow some to skip content is to allow them to progress faster/easier. Yes, all could skip that content, but some will want to experience things in a more 'immersive' way, and to, effective, punish people for playing in an immersive way is someone counter to the whole concept of an RPG.
Yes, in some ways, what others do doesn't effect you at all - let them gamify the world all they want - yet in some quite fundamental ways, it also does.
The question is, how much do you allow the world to be 'degraded' for some, to allow the convenience of others? Of course, you don't want it to be based on the most hardcore of hardcore, but there does have to be a line somewhere.
There will always be someone on one side saying "how much are you really inconvenienced?" and the other saying "how much is immersion/meaning/prestige/achievement/whatever really effected?", but there are few, if any, aspects where the answer for either is "none".
The more I think about it, the more I like the imbalance in class choices. It says something about the history, psychology, and status of each race. Races with few options might be more isolationist while races with more options might be explorers (or raiders). Perhaps humans can be all classes because their wanderlust has them seeing what everyone else is doing. This then opens up the possibility of having story progression drive changes. A new Ogre leader could usher in new waves of conquest, causing them to see and learn new classes, for example.
I dont hold with giving porting to low characters so they can meet up with friends and ignore the lore. Lore is in place for a reason and races are not always happy to see other races on their patch of land. I dont think it is unreasonable to have players characters embedded in that lore and are thus exposed to the same npc attitudes. There will always be opportunity for friends to meet up at some point, but I would not imagine any characters will (or should) be able to get from Kingsreach to Whitethaw or Reignfall at level 1. Even if you could, there will be little you can do there until you fix your faction. My preference is to either play races that are compatible and local to each other or, work your way to each other through the game mechanics.
Counterfleche: The more I think about it, the more I like the imbalance in class choices. It says something about the history, psychology, and status of each race.
I am not 100% convinced that there should only be one choice for a class on a continent, however, I am willing to see how it works in practice. As you say, it does fit with the lore of the world.
I know that is it intended for to highlight class race distribution. It's awesome! But if it graphic displays a full spectrum of combat roles, Shouldn't Keeper show up under Support Role and be Race "All" Class "All". Or are we discounting Keepers as information based, and/or just not notable?
My CM content has promoted this topic; please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Hot Topic - What do you think of the distribution of races in Terminus? Check out this community member updated class matrix and let us know what you think https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13818/continental-populations"
bobwinner said:feels kinda weird to realize ogres have no dps class
time to make the ogre monk bodyslam real ? :)
I think of Monks as more of a finesse class. Ogres are going to need some new dps classes like Brawler, Berserker, or Barbarian. Or maybe tank classes will be able to spec in a way that makes them essentially just a dps class.
For grouping in low-level dungeons (level 8-19) I hope that any race that is entirely lacking in one of the Holy Trinity roles (i.e. tank, healer, DPS), that they are reasonably close in proximity to another race that can offset the role they're lacking, so players aren't forced away from local dungeons to seek a more balanced group experience. (I'm less concerned about the "cc" role or levels after 20 when players would start to feel more comfortable traveling from their native environment and understand the ebb and flow of combat better.
Looks like the Ogres and Gnomes could do with a little love. Ogres would suit necro and ranger that would cover all the bases for them.
The Gnomes need a healer.. druid maybe? And would would be a fitting tank?.. warrior. EQ had a gnome tank and they were a bit of a meme.
I guess Gnomes don't need a tank with all thier stealth, cc and pets.
Only other thing I would consider is getting rid of the shaman for the Elves.