chaosangelwings said: I don’t want everything to be perfectly balanced, because if it’s not perfectly balanced, then playing a “disadvantaged” race/class combo is more rewarding.
true.
also, reminder : too many good mmorpgs got ruined because of "balance" goals.
balance/equality is not necessary, players always find a way.
there is no need for every starting areas to have every class and roles. players will move to meet their friends and play together.
In my experience, people move to higher population areas, not away. And people move towards loot and higher experience gain, than towards open space. In a group centric game, being in a low population area can making finding a group, or getting to a group you find difficult(given the devs adversion to fast travel systems). If travel is risky (EQ Antonica overland passage), not a lot of people will do it, or will look for alternatives (port druids).
While I am an explorer, and willing (driven) to try new stuff. I am also a realist and don't like sitting LFG (or failing to find others to join) in remote locations. While many people like the feeling of a large area, there is a reason quest hubs, guided travel and teleports were added to many games (not an endorsement, just a realization).
bobwinner said:there is no need for every starting areas to have every class and roles. players will move to meet their friends and play together.
Every starting area needs diversity in roles or people will leave in droves. Playing a disadvantaged race/class might be a perk, not being able to find a healer isn't. (this is primary roles, not secondary roles or specific classes). A class with a limited heal isn't a healer, a class with a little extra hp doesn't make it a tank. With Devs saying grouping will be encouraged even before level 10, filling all roles in all locations will become important.
Telepath said:I would guess that a caravan physically moving through the game would ba a lot more palatable than a "fast travel" option among this community. Like the inter-continental boats from EQ1
One just needs to read the mounts thread to see how many people think that any form of travel besides walking slowly is bad. Uphill, both ways, in the snow, through a jungle with a machette to make a path and a cannibal attacking you every 30 seconds isn't enough masochism for some people. Anything that makes passing mobs safer is wrong, even if the mobs are grey, trivial, and you've passed that way 2 dozen times.
I think one thing to bear in mind is in many MMO's, group content from 1-10 and even 15 is forgiving in the fact that you don't necessarily need a strict matrix of Tank, Healer, DPS in order for the group to be successful. 1-10 (or even up to 13-15) group content could have it's difficulty nerfed a bit in terms of all around difficulty in order to accommodate unorthodox group classes due to certain starting areas having deficient numbers of a particular class.
When I say "nerf" I don't mean in an artificial fashion like dramatically reduce HP, armor class, or other stats of mobs, but possibly just very small pulls and very simple mechanics. It could be a good opportunity to introduce players to simple base mechanics before taking the training wheels off, allowing players to experience the flow or feel of the content and showing them what to expect in the coming levels.
Telepath said:bobwinner said:feels kinda weird to realize ogres have no dps class
time to make the ogre monk bodyslam real ? :)
I think of Monks as more of a finesse class. Ogres are going to need some new dps classes like Brawler, Berserker, or Barbarian. Or maybe tank classes will be able to spec in a way that makes them essentially just a dps class.
One of the advantages of the LAS is that non-dps classes can be given more damage abilities and will thus be able to have DPS-esque builds they use when they're not needed in their primary roles. So Ogres can shift into this role to make up for their limited options.
It does feel weird that Ogres don't have DPS, but one of the best things about Pantheon is how it's subverting genre tropes by creating an original lore. I'm very interested to see how this will work out and would be very interested in seeing for myself if it weren't for my dislike of Ogres. This isn't a knock on how they were designed, simply me never having any interest in brawny, brutish characters.
Silvermink said:Every starting area needs diversity in roles or people will leave in droves. Playing a disadvantaged race/class might be a perk, not being able to find a healer isn't. (this is primary roles, not secondary roles or specific classes). A class with a limited heal isn't a healer, a class with a little extra hp doesn't make it a tank. With Devs saying grouping will be encouraged even before level 10, filling all roles in all locations will become important.
If you look closely at the Race/Class matrix, only the Gnomes are missing healers and tanks. So except for the gnome starting 'area', for which we know absolutely nothing, they would be the only race needing to travel to group with another race which has healers or tanks. All other races can make well balanced groups at the start.
Silvermink said:Telepath said:I would guess that a caravan physically moving through the game would ba a lot more palatable than a "fast travel" option among this community. Like the inter-continental boats from EQ1
One just needs to read the mounts thread to see how many people think that any form of travel besides walking slowly is bad. Uphill, both ways, in the snow, through a jungle with a machette to make a path and a cannibal attacking you every 30 seconds isn't enough masochism for some people. Anything that makes passing mobs safer is wrong, even if the mobs are grey, trivial, and you've passed that way 2 dozen times.
Whilst hyperbole to make a point is a favourite of mine, it's sometimes not useful when a subject is quite complex and nuanced, it also seems to imply others' opinions are ridiculously extreme, which can cause friction.
For example, I could, infer from 'recent posts' that 'some people' would like it if there was no travel and you could just zap to anywhere you wished. In fact, no need to actually *have* a world, just have free-choice instances thematically decorated, with monsters you want to encounter in each. Maybe just a button to kill the monsters, too - it's so annoying to have to click the same old buttons over and over to kill stuff. Maybe just a button to get loot, miss out the monster killing and travelling completely - it gets boring after a while and the loot is the fun bit!
...
Everyone has a line between convenience and satisfaction. Something that is too convenient is unsatisfying. Something that is too inconvenient is frustrating.
Compared to 'modern' gamers, 'old school' gamers tend to accept more inconvenience - or demand less convenience - because their experience tells them there is a link, direct or indirect, to getting a return to more meaningful, interesting, satisfying games.
There is a middle ground, of course, and that is where the discussion lies, but in a fan forum for a game with clear tenets and various FAQs and statements over the years reflecting a return to lost values in MMORPGs, yeah, you might see a tendency toward the 'old school'.
To get back to the OP: If people really want to play together right away, they can. They can all 'teleport' to the same continent by all creating characters that start there. The same homeland even if they really want convenience - choose the same race. The choice is there.
Choices have consequences, though. Yes, you restrict your choice of class-race combo if you choose to start together. Or you can de-restrict your choice with the consequence of travelling the game world to find each other. Choices, choices. Meaningful, satisfying, RPG-type choices.
Dodger said:Looks like the Ogres and Gnomes could do with a little love. Ogres would suit necro and ranger that would cover all the bases for them.
The Gnomes need a healer.. druid maybe? And would would be a fitting tank?.. warrior. EQ had a gnome tank and they were a bit of a meme.
I guess Gnomes don't need a tank with all thier stealth, cc and pets.
Only other thing I would consider is getting rid of the shaman for the Elves.
I overlooked this. Those poor Gnomes. No healers. No tanks.
If only they were Svirfneblin, they could find underground methods of fast travel akin to Druids and Wizards but without the group teleport component (unless they were a Wizard of course).
disposalist said:Everyone has a line between convenience and satisfaction. Something that is too convenient is unsatisfying. Something that is too inconvenient is frustrating.
Compared to 'modern' gamers, 'old school' gamers tend to accept more inconvenience - or demand less convenience - because their experience tells them there is a link, direct or indirect, to getting a return to more meaningful, interesting, satisfying games.
There is a middle ground, of course, and that is where the discussion lies, but in a fan forum for a game with clear tenets and various FAQs and statements over the years reflecting a return to lost values in MMORPGs, yeah, you might see a tendency toward the 'old school'.
To get back to the OP: If people really want to play together right away, they can. They can all 'teleport' to the same continent by all creating characters that start there. The same homeland even if they really want convenience - choose the same race. The choice is there.
Choices have consequences, though. Yes, you restrict your choice of class-race combo if you choose to start together. Or you can de-restrict your choice with the consequence of travelling the game world to find each other. Choices, choices. Meaningful, satisfying, RPG-type choices.
While part of my post was hyperbolic, the comment about some players being masochistic wasn't. They think any convenience is too much. I agree a middle ground is possible and preferable. I am glad VR has said mounts are a possibility, and that some limited fast travel will be available. Spending every night in the same area, because travel is too risky or too long isn't fun. Spending a whole play session travelling so can group somewhere tomorrow isn't fun. I have plenty of time, I like to explore and wander. Many people don't have that luxury.
Regarding gnomes not having a tank, I don't think each race needs all roles. I do think all regions need all roles. So gnomes not having a tank is fine if there is a race nearby that has 1. Thinking EQ, if you played an Elf, there were other elves, gnomes and dwarves all nearby. They didn't share starter zones, but once you got into moving around, you usually ended up running into them. By the time you got to the level 10ish dungeons, people were travelling the world.
Vandraad said:If you look closely at the Race/Class matrix, only the Gnomes are missing healers and tanks. So except for the gnome starting 'area', for which we know absolutely nothing, they would be the only race needing to travel to group with another race which has healers or tanks.
OakKnower said:I overlooked this. Those poor Gnomes. No healers. No tanks.
Personally, I like the idea of a race of all DPS since that should make for some interesting challenges in the beginning. Later on, if it proves to be too much of an issue, an obvious solution would be to have Skyhold, the flying Gnome city, move around. They could get near another main city (especially if that city had issues with enough people for teams).
Counterfleche said:Vandraad said:If you look closely at the Race/Class matrix, only the Gnomes are missing healers and tanks. So except for the gnome starting 'area', for which we know absolutely nothing, they would be the only race needing to travel to group with another race which has healers or tanks.
Personally, I like the idea of a race of all DPS since that should make for some interesting challenges in the beginning. Later on, if it proves to be too much of an issue, an obvious solution would be to have Skyhold, the flying Gnome city, move around. They could get near another main city (especially if that city had issues with enough people for teams).
Actually we do know something about the location of the Gnomes starting location.
In the Jan 2020 Dev Roundtable Part 2, at 56:00 minutes Joppa says "the skyhold ship, the vessel, is anchored in Khadassa, not in the city but in that zone. So the gnomes particularly will be sharing that starting area with the Dwarves".
Who can be healers and tanks.
Jothany said:Actually we do know something about the location of the Gnomes starting location.
In the Jan 2020 Dev Roundtable Part 2, at 56:00 minutes Joppa says "the skyhold ship, the vessel, is anchored in Khadassa, not in the city but in that zone. So the gnomes particularly will be sharing that starting area with the Dwarves".
Who can be healers and tanks.
That should alleviate concern, though I really hope Skyhold moves around, since that would keep things interesting and add some variety. Maybe it could spend a couple months in each location. To avoid lowbie Gnomes from getting left behind, they could have a racial ability to return home (usable once a day or so).