chenzeme said:Role-playing! I have come to realise that there are two types of role-players. Those that role play to the universe they inhabit and those that role play to the type of character they want regardless of the universe. I don't think these two types of game play always mesh easily.
If you are wanting to see your character, other players and mobs show the weapons they wield, then a transmog system (unless it is woven into the lore in some meaningful manner), breaks game immersion. Some people don't want to see a pirate wielding a sack of veg making the same damage as Thor's hammer.
Some do and it can break game immersion if they can't have their character look the way they want.
Not an ideal place to be. I would be I favour of having a role play server where there is no transmog system and another server where it is available. Let players decide which they want to participate in. If you don't, then one group will be disappointed.
Personally I don't want to see anything pretending to be something that it is not (unless it is game story driven, that is).
Agreed, though I think the kind of people that would want to use a transmog system in order to have over-the-top/weird/immature/inappropriate/unimmersive stuff are actually extremely rare, I think. The role-players I have known (not a huge anount, I admit, because I'm not really a role-player even though I like to play in character mostly) make great pains to stay faithful to the universe they are playing in. They tend to work like actors within a new film setting.
An appearance system (or whatever VR call it) should be based on in-game adventuring items only and should be restricted to the type of gear items being altered. In that way, people aren't encouraged to break the immersion and defy the lore of the Pantheon universe(s).
dorotea said:As to a few points raised above.
I agree that an appearance system without a toggle is more desirable to those that care about what other players see. My point was, and is, that a toggle doesn't make an appearance system "worthless" as one person said - it simply makes it less comprehensive.
I agree that 'worthless' could be considered an exaggeration if we are talking in a strictly logical sense, but in as much as I wouldn't bother using it if I have no clue who is seeing it or not, that makes it worthless (and weird and annoying) *enough* to me to not bother using it.
dorotea said:The trade-off is the possibly greater number of people that will be bothered - will "lose immersion" - if they see very jarring and unrealistic outfits. Unrealistic in the context of the fantasy game environment. If a warrior going into combat in a string bikini gets only the protection that it provides - none - her life will be nasty, brutish and short. Very few will do it and they will not exactly be welcome in serious groups. But if a warrior can get the protection of plate armour with the looks of a string bikini this will become more common. I simply do not want to see this. Having a toggle system is as far as I can go in compromising on this point so that those of us that don't want to see it - the great majority I suspect - can turn it off. Better might be to simply not waste developer resources on it at all.
On disposalist's point that if an appearance system is implemented by a crafting process we won't be seeing illusions we will be seeing what is actually there. True, of course. But the odds on them adapting your suggestions are not necessarily high - and I don't want to see the string bikinis become a tank combat outfit even if they *are* crafted by master crafters to give the protection of plate.
If an appearance system were to see warriors in string bikinis or anything remotely near that extreme of bizarreness I definitely would not want a toggle because I wouldn't want it at all.
Something like that would be even more of a wasted effort - in fact it would be of detriment to the game, being far from in-keeping with the tone of the setting and whether or not I saw it, it would totally effect the behaviour and tone of the people in game who are using it. People who want to be 'seen' bouncing around in a string bikini to not restrict themselves to hoping they are seen.
But the point is kinda moot, since I have no fear that VR would have appearance items anything like that if they do inded have an appearance system. I think the odds on VR adopting something quite like my suggestions are actually pretty high. I think, if they did have an appearance system, they would very much keep in on-theme and within lore and have it linked to a crafting method. I'm pretty sure they've hinted at such, though that could be wishingful thinking.
disposalist said:I think you are correct that some people would be pleased to be able to dress as they want just for themselves. I'm comfortable saying that's a very small proportion, though.
People are 'happy' to do that in solo RPGs, but there is no alternative, of course, and if a single-player RPG became multi-player and the developers said "oh, but your carefully designed cool costumes won't be seen by others" those players would be very disappointed indeed.
Some wouldn't mind much, but most would.
...
The transmog/cosmetics/wardrobe/appearance/whatever argument always gets weird even though it's absolutely plainly obvious that most people care what they look like and of people who care about what they look like a vast majority care because of what others think of them from their look.
There are multi-billion dollar clothing fashion industries and also multiple billions spent on the looks of other prestige things like cars, houses, gods let's face it pretty much anything.
If you don't care? Cool. Fine. Lucky you. That must make life simpler, though dressing like you don't care brings it's own issues, because people will still react to how you look, right?
It seems this breaks down to differing ideas as to how many players would engage in this kind of thing. I see it very much as a compromise, going from zero appearance systems to an opt-in appearance system meets as close to the middle as possible where no one side is entirely shut out from what they want. Yes those who don't wish to see the world in Cosplay/Fashion still get to see the world as originally intended or otherwise as things really are but those who wish to see themselves (and all others who use the system) still get to dress themselves as they see fit. They get to see their avatar and not look "like a clown" (or any other common complaints you see).
In this modern world of gaming we can see how strong the pull to cosplay in gaming tends to be, I honestly think you are way off in thinking a substantial portion of those players would be so vain as to really care if others are using it or not and would do what they can to look cool to themselves. Meaning most players would be dressing up and using the system. In which case I'd hope your view on this would be a bit different, if a minority of players (a quarter or fewer I'd bet) toggle appearances off.
As for likening this to real world fashion, I don't feel that is at all applicable. How things work, how people act/interact, and the potential consequences of it all are wildly different in the real world vs a virtual world.
I'm against Transmog of items, but am for a cosmetic paper doll loadout that one can swap to for RP or showing off in town, whatever, with base stats of those actual items.
It comes down to item identity and how it builds community. In modern MMOs items are only good until the next expansion and perhaps not even noticed as an item themselves, only part of a min/max parse.
I want items to be Iconic, lasting, coveted, talked about, create player made goals and shared effort to obtain. *Thinking slower leveling pace, horizontal progression, less loot spam, challenging content
To those who say /inspect should be good enough aren't getting this perspective. It's about recognition by sight. Not because of epeen or elitism, but because of Dream building. Giving players something to look at and say wow I want one of those. It's not about judging a potential group mates power, but about seeing those items and respecting them as an accomplished player.
In modern games everyone has so much crap on them to the point that Looks Do Not Matter At All. That is what this leads to. Anyone can have any curated look they want so noone pays attention to it any longer and it is self-defeating for your purpose and also ruins the desire to farm items. It comes to a point where I automatically assume everything I'm seeing on a character is cosmetic, so Why Even Pay Attention At All?
It's to the point that one doesn't even pay attention to how someone looks, which is funny since the proponents really care about how others See them look.
I may get flak for this part but Brad commented on this and said no to transmog and Yes to item identity. IIRC he even mentioned wearing a crappy item just for the look of it.
If anything it should cost such a huge fortune to transmog a top-tier item as to be a rare accomplishment in itself.
Obviously my "string bikini" comments were going to the far end of the spectrum. But not at all a reductio ad absurdum based on what I have seen in other games. I could reasonably have gone even further - Conan allowed removal of one of the strings and characters of either gender to go totally topless.
Looking, as usual, for a middle ground in addition to the middle ground of a toggle. One that will satisfy some people that aren't happy with the idea of a toggle but will also be unacceptable to some people that like the idea of a toggle. That, after all, is what "middle ground" means - or at least implies.
How about a system that allows a character to be seen using any piece of armour or weapon that a character of their class and level can actually use. Even if they do not, in fact, have it equipped. Too limiting for some proponants of an appearance system, of course. But with these advantages.
1. Nothing ridiculous will be cluttering the screen for those that do not want their immersion threatened. Characters can only be seen using items the developers intended characters of that class to be able to use.
2. We will be able to guess a character's class by looking at it as in a MMO with no appearance system. Subject to the obvious - if a paladin wants to wear cloth armour it probably can with or without an appearance system. Though the converse is not true - a mage cannot wear plate. We will be less able to guess level since a high level would be able to look as if it was in low level gear. Again this would be asymetrical - a low level could not have the appearance of high level gear.
3. One of the *major* benefits to an appearance system will be applicable in all respects. A character that loves the look of an outfit but feels the need to change it to get better statistics can still have the appearance of that outfit.
disposalist said:All that said, when it comes down to it, if itemisation is broad and looks vary, we probably don't *need* an appearance system. I'd rather not have one if it's a big development or if it's objected to and the only 'solution' is a toggle (which, as I've mentioned, I think is a very bad 'fix'). Also, if it opens the door to cosmetic only gear and cash shop (or even in-game equivalent) 'outfits', then I'd rather not, either.
Agree with disposalist if the transmorg system is any lift I would not add it at this time.
disposalist said:Big fan of what VR proposed in the past: Player controlled toggle for if they wish to see the world/players in their real states (see actual equipped items), or if they want to see people in their cosplay.
Agree with Iksar that others should be able to see actual vs transmorg gear.
disposalist said:Oh, but then you get all the whiners who complain about you not seeing them as they want you to see them. Believe me, this very issue has been brought up as long as transmog/cosmetic/whatever has been discussed. They should just be happy that they see themselves as they want.
Agree with Vandraad and would add that this is multilayers. That is, there will whinners with or with-out the transmorg system. There are those that are very focused on getting just the right look and that is a major portion of the game and those they see cosmetics being attached to the gear as frivilous. For me being able to change color is fine; however, more than that I do not like. If the transmorg system is added then you have that argument ongoing and you adds to the initial of it not enough... too much... etc. Ultimately, there will always be "whinners" around this topic. Right now VR has a very powerfull argument going for them to not implement... that is the question "Are you willing for Alpha to be delayed for the transmorg system?" Personally, I would not.
I think that there are a lot of good discussion around this.. I would offer up that using crafting instead of transmorg, allowing crafters to craft based on a style which is seperate from abilites and stats. Now one can have the look they want with the abilites they are looking for and it is handled within crafting and not by transmorg.
That said, if there was an advantage of an illusion, i.e. a rogue that wants to look like a Paladin to get into a temple... then I am all for an Illusionary transmorg capability.
First I'd like to start this off with a few basic definitions as I see them, and thus how they will be used in my post:
Now that we're all speaking the same language:
I am not a Diehard fan or opponent to transmog systems. I personally like being able to look at other peoples gear and tell they are wearing a unique item or a full set of Lambent (as my favorite example it was very iconic and most people know what it is). Looking around among the people around you and seeing all sorts of armor that look nice, but you can never tell what they may be using doesn't really inspire me to pay attention to what they are wearing beyond being able to recognize friends without having to read their names. That said, I do like the idea of being able to get the added customization to my own appearance. After all I know what I am wearing, and I'm the only character that I have to look at 24/7 while I'm playing, being able to customize it so I like it more would be nice.
Now, my first concern would be that any Transmog system should include a Toggle. While i believe it should be a simple UI setting that all people have available to them at all times, I could understand and accept if it were tied to the same quest/event that players must do to unlock the Transmog system if any such quest/event is set up. Linking a Toggle to some unrelated feature seems gimmicky at best, you're basically saying anyone can transmog gear but if you don't like it, spend your time doing extra tasks just to be able to turn off a system everyone else got without having to do that.
With a toggle in place, there's not really any lore/aestetic friendly Transmog system that I'm against.
Now I've spent a lot of time in... discussions... with various people over the past days or even weeks over all the potential ins and outs of if, why, how, a transmog system should be included in Pantheon. While I could go into all the different possibilitiies discussed instead I'd like to simply point out the basic tenant of a Transmog system i'd like to see if it's included. And my own personal alternative to transmog.
First if Transmog is the route taken, i'd like to see a system where the item that you are pulling the desired graphics from gets used/destroyed as part of the process.
As for my alternative to Transmog, I would suggest that a robust crafting system that allows a wide range of appearances as the final result of the crafting process could allow players to make gear with desired looks while maintaining any dropped/quested gear that has unique appearances always retain their uniqueness. This would allow potentially any crafted item to have 5, 10, 20... different appearances that would be selectable at creation. These could be tied to level range for the gear with appearances changing to match with the level/quality of the item, they could be variants of dropped gear, or custom creations for crafting gear. They could even be set values that are unlocked as you progress through higher and higher ranks in the corresponding crafting skill. Raid drops could provide for raid quality crafted gear so people can maintain their customized looks without having to forfeit from getting raid quality gear.
One of the complications with this system would be how someone that wants an item made for them knows what image to have it crafted in since they are not doing the crafting. First I would say my last example of appearances being unlocked as people level their crafting skill would be the easiest to design. The corresponding crafting interface simply needs a tab that shows all the available crafting graphics. So someone would be able to go to any forge and look through all the available breastplate images and decide they want Breastplate Image #23. As long as the crafter's skill is high enough to make it, they know exactly what to make and have no problems doing so. If the graphics available are tied to the specific item by level as I mentioned before it could be more complicated. But possibly whenever 2 people are grouped and using the same crafting interface there is a tab on the UI that shares the available options or even just lets you observe what the other crafter is doing (may need to be allowed/accepted by the crafter).
Thank you for your consideration.
Glorfendill, aka Glorf, aka Pinky
If it is going to add more development time to the already long wait, then I will say no to the system. If you want to implement one as part of a future expansion after go live then I actually have no preference.
I don't look at someones gear and say no I don't want to group with them because it doesn't look shiny enough. I will see something and go that looks nice, but if you want to change colors of armor, or have other appearance items that the char has on vs what they actually use, then I am neutral on the idea. It won't affect the way I play the game or how I interact with people. I just think this should be a post go live option.
Everything about Pantheon is about the journey and the story each player uncovers and is involved in. Everything is geared to having players immersed in the land and lore of pantheon. Anything that interferes with this basic tenant should be considered very, very carefully. If a system is introduced that can make the lore of the game seem less or even broken, then it should not be allowed free licence. In my view, a totally open and non restricted transmog system that allows you to change items to something they clearly are not, would effect the gaming experience and the believability of the world and for me, would be an immersion breaker.
disposalist: An appearance system (or whatever VR call it) should be based on in-game adventuring items only and should be restricted to the type of gear items being altered.
This, in my view, is 100% required. Any transmog system should be in line with the world, its lore and be something that you have to adventure to do. Otherwise, it is just a "look at me" prop which is just plain jarring if taken to extremes (and if it can be, it will be). If we have to work at everything else in the world, then I dont see why players that want to look a certain way shouldn't have to work at achieving it too.
Personally I want servers that cater to both views; if that cannot be done, then any transmog system has to be a lore rich, adventure based system and produces items that are in harmony with the world at large and its lore. If classes are restricted to item types, this must be applied to transmog items. Players should be allowed to look at someone and see a mace and know it will do blunt damage. If an evil character cannot use a staff of goodliness, then that transmog should not be available (unless it corrupts the look of the item - making it emenate black instead of white for instance).
I could live with a transmog system if it is world-friendly and lore-friendly. Any such system should be an add on, way down the line, after alpha and beta.
Style and personal expression are traits that players enjoy greatly.
With the understanding that restrictions are in place to avoid silly emersion breaking outfits(sever specific) most people would want and use some form of transmog features.
I personally would like to keep as humble and low key look as possible on a day to day basis and only glam it up and be looking fabulous for special occasions such as formal gatherings or addressing my adoring fans.
But I hope that the end client would be able to turn the feature on or off. I want to avoid the scar warrior in an evening dress while spelunking in a cave scenarios, thanks
As long as there is enough variety of gear and they all mesh well together I don't really see a need. That being said, crafters being able to make more advanced dyes should be a must. Crafters maybe being able to add a little something extra to a piece of gear, like some sort of symbol on a chest piece or a coat of arms on a shield would be pretty neat.
On the other side... Once the grind to end game is finally finished and everyone begins to aquire BiS gear will all male warriors have the same armor? IMO it would be pretty damn boring seeing everyone run around in the same gear all the time. I would like to have some way of making my gear unique without the capability of just destroying the look completely.
Altering the look of gear should be somehting people can do but also needs to be within reason. For example, I wouldn't want to see people running around in the world with an event costume able to still take on a dungeon like that. It ultimately would kill immersion and in a lot of cases probably look ridiculous.
bangcok said:
On the other side... Once the grind to end game is finally finished and everyone begins to aquire BiS gear will all male warriors have the same armor?
We know there won't be one over arching BiS option. But also, hopefully content will be challenging enough, and contested enough, where everyone isn't able to acquire everything just because they want it.
disposalist said:Dikenzu said:...
The simple solution is that, if it is decided by VR to add such a system, give us the ability to turn it off.
Compromise.
...
The 'compromise' argument has been had so many times, but just once here again and then I'll stop, because it's pointless hehe.
For those that insist on knowing exactly what others are wearing at a glance - and /inspect is not enough for some reason - a toggle gives them 100% what they want.
For those wanting their appearance to actually be seen and don't care if people know their gear stats, a toggle degrades the system by 50% if 50% use the toggle. Actually, it's worse, as never knowing who sees what makes it more confusing and unreliable, but let's say it's effectively degraded dependent on the percentage seeing through their look.
This is not a compromise. A solution that makes one side 100% happy and the other much less than 100% is not a compromise. A compromise is where *both* sides give ground to achieve a solution in the middle.
A compromise is having an /inspect function so people who must know can see *exactly* what everyones gear is whenever they like, however weird that is. Both get something of what they want.
Someone being forced to see your Transmorg is not a compromise at all. You reduced the many reason why folks are against Transmorg to just being able to see or not see it. The fact that you have it is a win when it could not exist at all. Trying to fight for more than that goes back to my original comment. There is no point in letting someone see what you are really wearing if we have to deal with the Transmorg to begin with. Nevermind the many other reasons already given as to why folks are against it. We still have to deal with those issues and you gave zero consideration to them.
Which is why I'm not in favor. Once you open the door for certain things folks will incessantly move the goalpost to modify and modify and upgrade and amend to the cows come home. There is no end point, so I rather not deal with it to begin with.
Anywho, I hope VR doesn't have Transmorg. If they do, I strongly suggest a toggle. Going back and forth about the details is not something that interests me becasue it is never ending. Your 'compromise' will be amended by another pro-Transmorg comment , then another and it continues...
Dikenzu said:disposalist said:Dikenzu said:...
The simple solution is that, if it is decided by VR to add such a system, give us the ability to turn it off.
Compromise.
...
The 'compromise' argument has been had so many times, but just once here again and then I'll stop, because it's pointless hehe.
For those that insist on knowing exactly what others are wearing at a glance - and /inspect is not enough for some reason - a toggle gives them 100% what they want.
For those wanting their appearance to actually be seen and don't care if people know their gear stats, a toggle degrades the system by 50% if 50% use the toggle. Actually, it's worse, as never knowing who sees what makes it more confusing and unreliable, but let's say it's effectively degraded dependent on the percentage seeing through their look.
This is not a compromise. A solution that makes one side 100% happy and the other much less than 100% is not a compromise. A compromise is where *both* sides give ground to achieve a solution in the middle.
A compromise is having an /inspect function so people who must know can see *exactly* what everyones gear is whenever they like, however weird that is. Both get something of what they want.
Someone being forced to see your Transmorg is not a compromise at all. You reduced the many reason why folks are against Transmorg to just being able to see or not see it. The fact that you have it is a win when it could not exist at all. Trying to fight for more than that goes back to my original comment. There is no point in letting someone see what you are really wearing if we have to deal with the Transmorg to begin with. Nevermind the many other reasons already given as to why folks are against it. We still have to deal with those issues and you gave zero consideration to them.
Which is why I'm not in favor. Once you open the door for certain things folks will incessantly move the goalpost to modify and modify and upgrade and amend to the cows come home. There is no end point, so I rather not deal with it to begin with.
Anywho, I hope VR doesn't have Transmorg. If they do, I strongly suggest a toggle. Going back and forth about the details is not something that interests me becasue it is never ending. Your 'compromise' will be amended by another pro-Transmorg comment , then another and it continues...
I thought I had addressed people's concerns, including my own, and given answers to them with my own very limited and particular version of transmog.
*I* object to versions of transmog where there might be un-earned, inappropriate or ridiculous outfits, too, but there's no reason to assume VR would have a system like that, in fact, from what they have said over the years, there is every reason to believe that, if they did have an appearance system, it would have nothing like the 'bad' aspects that most people, including myself, object to.
Either way, the toggle can be judged independantly from any of this to-and-fro of the details, as you call it. As I said, something that gives 100% of what one side wants and less than that to the other is simply, by definition, not a compromise.
It should be noted that VR has stated that there will most likely only be pvp and non-pvp servers available. This means any system in place will effect every player.
Transmog, for me really depends on the system in place:
If it is changing an items looks by adding a fire rune and making it flame, or the colour of an item (within limits, i.e. keeping in line with the world itself), or changing one kind of dagger for another kind and obeys the lore of the land, then I could just about live with it.
If it is changing a sword into a spear because you like the stats of the sword but like to wield a spear, then I would argue that you should go out into the world and find a spear that you like the stats of. There is not going to be a BiS, so there should be spear out there that is similar to the sword. A transmog like this is lazy.
If it is changing plate armour into a dress, then I would not be in favour. There is a line between tailoring your look to how you want to role-play and ignoring the "game physics". If you want your character to wear a dress, then go for it. I just dont see why a silk dress should have the same stats as steel plate.
There is a difference between role-playing to the world and role-playing for yourself. If you want to be noticed, be a good player, not a loud player.
It would be nice to get VR's stance on transmog system... Kilsin? We get asked a lot of questions here and we do not always get direct feedback for VRs stance (except in the odd bean dropping).
chenzeme said:It should be noted that VR has stated that there will most likely only be pvp and non-pvp servers available. This means any system in place will effect every player.
Transmog, for me really depends on the system in place:
If it is changing an items looks by adding a fire rune and making it flame, or the colour of an item (within limits, i.e. keeping in line with the world itself), or changing one kind of dagger for another kind and obeys the lore of the land, then I could just about live with it.
If it is changing a sword into a spear because you like the stats of the sword but like to wield a spear, then I would argue that you should go out into the world and find a spear that you like the stats of. There is not going to be a BiS, so there should be spear out there that is similar to the sword. A transmog like this is lazy.
If it is changing plate armour into a dress, then I would not be in favour. There is a line between tailoring your look to how you want to role-play and ignoring the "game physics". If you want your character to wear a dress, then go for it. I just dont see why a silk dress should have the same stats as steel plate.
There is a difference between role-playing to the world and role-playing for yourself. If you want to be noticed, be a good player, not a loud player.
It would be nice to get VR's stance on transmog system... Kilsin? We get asked a lot of questions here and we do not always get direct feedback for VRs stance (except in the odd bean dropping).
It would be nice, but we don't usually get direct feedback on these things because VR tend not to ask opinion on stuff that has actually been decided and, as long as discussion stays civil, they like it to run its course.
From what VR have said in the past about keeping the look of the game high fantasy but 'realistic' (not necessarily gritty, but not outlandish), I'm confident that if there *is* an appearance system, it wouldn't upset anyone much.
Personally, I don't think there will be one. VR have also spoken in the past about itemisation being extensive and there being multiple 'versions' of similar items - to avoid bottlenecking and camping as much as for wanting variety. With good-looking art and broad itemisation, the 'need' for transmog many people might have felt in the past will be largely assuaged, I think.
They are 'cosmetic' items in historic pledges, but I believe those will simply be 'real' items you can wear when you want to show you are a pledger, not anything that will override the look of others. Not something that needs a 'cosmetics' system, but normal items that don't have any particular stats value and are, thus, 'cosmetic'.
I admit that is all gleaned from various vids and forum posts and Discord comments over the years, so I could be mis-remembering or mis-interpreting. From that point-of-view, it would be nice to get VR's stance, even if it's just condensing what they've said before and saving us pouring over old vids, etc, but if VR had to have a meeting to confer and condense sentiments for every point we wanted clarifying they would have time for nothing else, hehe.
I think an items appearance should be tuned to the quality and difficulty of attaining the item. You should be able to see someones toon and have an idea of what they've accomplished.
I've said it before and I think it bears mentioning again: fashionquest is real.
However, the purist in me thinks there should be an understood nuance in how fashionquest is pursued.
I dont think it should be completely in the hands of the player. Instead, I think there should be some element of suprise/unknown/uniqueness that is uncontrollable.
For instance: The same RNG dropped robe may look one way on one race and a different way on another race. In fact, it may look better on that other race. The dropped robe itself, may still look pretty cool with its unique markings.
Personally, I think any kind of personalization should be limited to, like , color and not style. And even then limited still like silver, or gold or copper or rust or brass with patina, iron, doe plate wearers. Leather limited still to polished, suede and ....patent but again oxblood, brown black. Although you kingsmen fans will not want wing-tips or "brogues", the "real" remember the depression era folks insisting on wing-tips because more leather was used to make them and allowed them to last through weather and wear longer, longer still if you maintained a polish on them- and metal taps front and back. yes front and back. When poor, spend on shoes; when really poor, buy wing-tips.
I don't get disposalist's (and maybe others'?) argument that since the game is an RPG you should be able to express yourself and that is enough of a reason to put an apperance system in.
In fact, you CAN tailor the look of your character by equipping the items you think look good. If you wanna role-play as a bum in rags you can, you just have to live with having the stats of a bum in rags. Besides, since it was brought up, that is also how fashion in real life works. High-heels don't have a high bonus to agility.
As far as my view goes I think GeneralReb basically nailed it. There's authenticity to seeing the graphics of the items people are wearing, especially if you know which item it is their appearance tells you a little about their journey. I'm not particularily convinced by tying the whole thing in with the lore just for the sake of it. At the end of the day its still at its core the same system, just hand waved with some "because magic" or whatever. Imo it doesn't ruin immersion due to being impossible in the setting of the world but because it infringes on the authenticity of gameplay mechanics and social interaction. In that sense it gives me a similar feeling that cash shop items and even level boosts do.
I can understand that people who would spend time using this system would find it a bummer if people had the option to opt out, though. But personally I'd prefer the toggle just so i can ignore that this system even exists, if in fact it ends up being implemented.
Don't put this in the world just to do it. This is not "My litttle Pony" or "Barbie dress up" or is it?
Honestly, gear modification is super cool, done through the lore. crafting and player interdependability. Pulling a crappy system in from WoW, from a company on a decline is not the answer.
Spluffen: If you wanna role-play as a bum in rags you can
Totally agree. If you want rags, go out and find them and wear them. What some of us are saying is that rags should have the stats of rags. Magical rags should have the stats of magical rags. Rags should not have the stats of plate. Self expression is one thing, breaking the world's physics is another. If the world and the lore say that wizards should not wield swords, then having a transmog system that allows that, breaks that lore. Role play to your hearts content, just within the lore and the world's physics. Self express yourself within the confines of the world.
If this was a war rpg based on the second world war, should it have tanks that look like jelly? Just because someone wants it and claims it as self-expression does not mean it should be in the game (flippent but the point is valid).
Spluffen: Besides, since it was brought up, that is also how fashion in real life works. High-heels don't have a high bonus to agility.
I dont think a warrior would be happy if they were wearing high heels and suffered an agility penalty (although I think it is exactly what should happen). Some of us are calling for items to remain lore based, that is all. If you like the look of a sword and get something less pleasing, then I can live with it's looks being transformed into the nicer looking sword. I just dont want to see rags act like plate, or mages wield great axes or two handed swords.
A role-playing game has a lore, for that lore to make sense it needs to be applied to mobs, items and players. If the developers say there is a difference in cloth and metal or staffs and swords, then I dont get why a player should expect to be able use items they would normally be prevented from using. Role play within the game. Self-express within the world. Pantheon is a role playing game, not a meta-verse.
chenzeme said:However some are wanting to look however they wish but have it act like their class specific items without penalty. This is not the same thing.
I mean maybe it's not the exact same thing but it's basically the same thing imo. All of the issues that I have with transmog systems are still there in a case like that. Granted you don't have jelly tanks or whatever but that's a separate issue from what I was talking about. What i meant by my comment about roleplaying as a bum in rags is that you can just wear whatever you think looks cool if you are willing to accept that its not the optimal item in terms of stats. I don't think its relevant if the optimal item you'd like to wear instead is the same item class or not.
That said I understand that this seems to be some kind of fundamental difference in what people value in MMOs and i can't really argue with other people's preferences.
Manouk said:For instance: The same RNG dropped robe may look one way on one race and a different way on another race. In fact, it may look better on that other race. The dropped robe itself, may still look pretty cool with its unique markings.
Joppa has said many times over the years that items that are dropped that we can wear will keep their look no matter what race wears it. Unlike EQ1 where a Steel Breastplate would change its appearance to match that of the race. Pantheon will be the opposite..thankfully.
The ability to change the appearance of items is important to me. In a fantasy game with magic, it makes sense that we can magically modify items and that we can use illusion magic. We can presumably cast all kinds of other illusions (at least Enchanters), we can magically summon, we can magically enchant / modify players / NPCs. It seems weirdly arbitrary to specifically exclude only weapons and armor from magical manipulation.
And since magic illusion / modification is a common part of fantasy, there shouldn't be any UI toggle. There should, as befitting high fantasy, be in-game options like magic glasses / spells that let you see through illusions and show magically modified items.