No, don't like them. Not against dying of equipment, or even in some peice add-ons that ADD to the appearance, but not for the idea of making it look like something that it isn't.
I would love to see VR create a detailed 'appearance system' that would be unique to Pantheon. There are many negative connotations (fairly or not) associated with the word 'Transmog' -- that's a detailed appearance system that is unique to World of Warcraft. For the sake of discussion, I hope that people who participate in this thread try to keep an open mind and remember that if VR were to develop a unique appearance system specifically for Pantheon, it wouldn't need to inherit any of the perceived problems with 'Transmog' or 'World of Warcraft.'
An ideal system for me would be one that is hand-crafted for the world of Terminus, likely taking shape as some form of 'Illusion Craft' that enchanters and/or crafters would be able to learn. Having a lore-friendly approach would be good for immersion and thematic consistency with the world and our characters. Likewise, if some sort of 'toggle' were to exist, I would hope that it would meet that same standard. Tying it to the 'Investigate' ability that Keepers have with Perception seems like a simple and logical choice.
I think there are many benefits for having a good appearance system and here are some of the ones that resonate with me the most:
1) Minimizing item value deflation / Enhancing the player-driven economy
An appearance system would provide an additional type of value to weapons and armor since it would allow certain items to have a timeless value that is otherwise impractical when the value of gear is measured by combat efficiency alone. Depending on the implementation, there could also be major incentives for our desired player-driven economy. Appearance systems can easily be configured to serve as a type of 'Item Sink' that removes items from the economy and stimulate supply/demand.
2) Content Relevance / Bottleneck Alleviation
This benefit is directly attached to the above. Whenever you have an item that has a "timeless value" it would make sense, then, that the content associated with that item would have it as well. This means that the NPC that drops the "Bloodstone Breastplate" or the faction merchant that sells it will continue to be relevant for as long as that value is maintained. The more relevant content you have in the game, the more likely players will organically spread out and reduce congestion.
3) Horizontal Progression / Cost-effective Content Creation
Spending time on acquiring gear for the sole purpose of leveraging its appearance would be considered horizontal progression. This serves as the catalyst for both of the above benefits. An appearance system helps set the stage for my favorite kind of quest; the 'Player-Driven-Quest' that is intrinsically motivated. Having this kind of horizontal progression is important since it can greatly enhance replay value in an extremely cost-effective way. Breathing this sort of additional life into already existing content is simply good game design, especially in MMORPG's where it's seemingly impossible to keep up with content demands.
4) Player Agency / Self-Expression
Allowing players to influence the world around them is one of the biggest draws to open-world MMORPG's. Developers have been trying to capture this phenomenon in single-player games for ages. It typically involves an advanced node system where the choice a player makes can lead to one of several outcomes. One of the most popular implementations is to create multiple branches that could yield different results/endings based on the choice of the player. Over time we saw these types of multiple-outcome-scenarios become more commonplace throughout the entirety of an RPG story.
MMORPG's are uniquely positioned to offer a sense of player agency that is persistent throughout the entire game. Allowing a player to control the appearance of their character has an impact on every other player they interact with. This can be good or bad depending on the options available to the player. If someone can equip santa hats and candy cane swords then there is a very valid argument that it ruins the immersion of being in a fantasy world. As long as the options are consistent with the overall theme of the game, this sense of player agency will amplify the sensation of enjoying a shared experience with other real players.
Beyond all that, I think it would be important to have several checks and balances and would propose the following qualifiers:
1) Item-type restrictions would apply.
Swords cannot appear as great swords or maces. Cloth helmets cannot appear as plate helmets. Tunics cannot appear as robes. Bucklers cannot appear as tower shields.
2) Race/Class restrictions would apply.
Warriors would not be able to leverage the appearance of an item that is 'Paladin-Only.' Ogres would not be able to leverage the appearance of an item that is 'Gnome-Only.'
3) Adventure armor restrictions would apply.
This means that formal garb, crafting gear, harvesting gear, festive gear, roleplaying gear or any other non-adventure-specific gear would not be eligible. No dungeon crawling in sundresses or cooking aprons.
In general, not a fan of transmog. I much prefer to know what a player is wearing by sight.
I understand the desire. Sometimes there's that piece of gear that just looks odd, or out of place with the rest of your setup. But it bothers me when someone appears completely different from head to toe from their actual inventory. Not to mention that it detracts from those moments when you see someone who has actually completed a full set of a particular gear. It stands out when its rare. Its hardly noticeable when most people look like they have a tailored look.
At minimum if transmog is used, please give the option for me to turn it off for everyone I see.
Many games have appearance systems - I have no idea why this thread didn't use a more general term rather than focus on the system from one other game. Well, other than from the fact that it is the largest MMO.
A system letting the player see their own character in any gear that they have ever owned wouldn't bother me. Though I would never use it.
Other players should only see what is actually being worn. Though a check off option "see illusory gear" would be fine.
I don't really like appearance systems. However I'm not ruling one out for Pantheon specifically. I think the idea is a good one and promotes players to be creative and create a sense of individualism in game. But what I have seen in most MMOs is not something I like. It's either ridiculous or it's a paid for through a cash shop. Both of which is absolutely a terrible idea in my opinion.
That being said the idea of a crafter being able to fashion an in game item like a dragon claw or something into a real visible part of your armor or weapons that others can see and identify would be kind cool. I have no idea if that's even possible though.
I don't really like appearance systems. However I'm not ruling one out for Pantheon specifically. I think the idea is a good one and promotes players to be creative and create a sense of individualism in game. But what I have seen in most MMOs is not something I like. It's either ridiculous or it's a paid for through a cash shop. Both of which is absolutely a terrible idea in my opinion.
That being said the idea of a crafter being able to fashion an in game item like a dragon claw or something into a real visible part of your armor or weapons that others can see and identify would be kind cool. I have no idea if that's even possible though.
Because, as others have pointed out, "Transmog" is a specific system from a specific game (isn't it?), I'm going to assume "Transmog systems", plural, is asking about all potential 'appearance' systems...
Transmog, Appearance, Wardrobe, Cosmetics, whatever... I suppose the name used in Pantheon, if it gets into Pantheon, would depend on the implementation.
I think a lot of people's objections tend to be because they have experienced particular implementations in other games that are way too 'free' and outlandish/over-the-top/ridiculous (as we all have. I don't remember a good one, or one that didn't start good, but become bad (LotRO)).
I actually would like one, but with very definite limitations: -
1) When you change the look of an item, it is permanent (though the process can be done again for different look), ie. you can't switch the look on and off freely with a toggle.
2) The only items for use as appearance items are 'normal' in-game items. No cosmetic only items/outfits (Thus, only sensible 'adventuring' looks. No tuxedos or pyjamas or ball gowns or whatever).
3) You can only apply the look of an item that has the same restrictions/limitations. (If an item is a chest piece, heavy plate, warrior only, elf only, then the 'appearance' item must meet those restrictions too).
4) The process should be a player craft. Either a magical craft (Illusion? Enchantment?) of its own, or a re-crafting appropriate to the item type, or a combination of both. Maybe an Enchanter makes a Transformation material, then, if a shield, for example, an armourer is needed to re-forge it, using the Transformation 'gem' also, to look like another.
5) The process should at least involve the consumption/destruction of the appearance item. Probably other materials too. Good as an economy 'sink' and to make the process less of a frivolous undertaking.
6) There could be an /inspect command for those really *needing* to know what gear someone has on (though I don't see why someone should really have that 'right', it seems a lot want it)
7) There should be no toggle to 'ignore' this system. This would cause a weird disjoint between player perceptions, with some seeing one thing and some another which would be unimmersive and confusing. Also would make the system largely pointless when carefully crafted appearances could be being ignored and the appearance crafter has no idea if it is being seen or not. It would mean people that care about their appearance would have to curate their 'raw' gear anyway, for those with the toggle off, so may as well not bother. Basically: If a toggle is the answer to people's objection? Don't bother wasting time developing the appearance system as half players won't see it and many of the half that *do* care won't bother using it anyway.
The above system doesn't damage the prestige or worth of existing adventure gear at all, because the appearance gear is also adventure gear. It gives worth and meaning to items beyond their stats and encourages players to adventure for gear for more reasons than just their stats.
All that said, when it comes down to it, if itemisation is broad and looks vary, we probably don't *need* an appearance system. I'd rather not have one if it's a big development or if it's objected to and the only 'solution' is a toggle (which, as I've mentioned, I think is a very bad 'fix'). Also, if it opens the door to cosmetic only gear and cash shop (or even in-game equivalent) 'outfits', then I'd rather not, either.
Big fan of what VR proposed in the past: Player controlled toggle for if they wish to see the world/players in their real states (see actual equipped items), or if they want to see people in their cosplay.
I am a big fan of seeing the world as it is. Bands of motley adventurers wearing (often) mismatched gear they have found on their journey, occasionally you see someone who has completed a nice looking set of gear. Really don't like how everything is a fashion show of carefully (or barely) curated matching outfits these days.
I do not like systems, however you wish to label it, that allows you to significantly alter the appearance of an item..any item. How an item looks is how it should look. Period. You want to go play dress-up? Go buy a Barbie Malibu FunHouse or crawl into your significant other's closet and have yourself a ball. But not in an MMO.
Now, even though I said I do not like them, I'm not going to quit the game if VR decides to eventually create such a system. What I will mind is if they decide to expend that time, money and effort before release. This game is now over 8 years into development, still not out of the Pre-Alpha stage and release is no where on the horizon. There are so many more important game related things VR needs to do than this pointless fluff. Do it after release if you're going to do it at all.
Transmog is good for obsessive compulsive players like myself and perfectionists who pay attention to every single detail about their character including strands of hair all the way to a perfect 3 paragraph character description with each paragraph having the exact same number of words. Yes these players are out there, I've seen them. These days, they are not quite as esoteric as they used to be, so I vote Yes for transmog systems as they add flavor to the appearance of characters. If not, we will have to settle for how we look according to the armor piece and nothing else, which is a bit restrictive. The down-side to having this system is the time consumed in coding for it, which can be used for world content, class or race detailing, lore, or the combat system. Of course one must weigh the pros and the cons when considering such a system and its implementation.
We need to make sure we are differentiating between transmog and more standard cosmetic items.
Items that can be equiped to change a players look cosmetically when they don't care about stats are good. In combat, when your performance is based on the gear you have equipped, that is what should be visible.
If I see a player doing something awesome that should make me want to acquire the gear they are using in order to be as awesome as they are. In this case, item identity matters.
If the gear a player is using in battle is not visible then item identity doesn't matter to that dev team. As Brad and Chris have both talked about multiple times, item identity does matter to this dev team.
Been here for several years like many, many others on these forums. I check in on the forums about once a week or so...read any updates and leave. I don't post very often because a lot of what is talked about is just a rehashing of what was talked about 5 or 6 years ago. But this is something I would like to give my opinion on as it is something I feel strongly about. This is only my opinion and not a bashing on any person or individual that likes these systems, to each their own.
Transmog systems, do you like them and would you like to see one in Pantheon? Yes and no. I like them in theory, but not in practice. Because of the differences between fashion and function, I would not like to see a transmog system in PRotF. Even today, a spacesuit is only going to be so fashionable. Granted, the suits look better now compared to the early Apollo missions, but when we see one we still immediately know what we're looking at. And any fashion upgrades to date wouldn't have come at a cost to function.
Please explain your answer. The best way to explain would be to describe an alternative that would still add some of the variety that transmog has to offer.
The alternative: Even though players choose their race at character creation and that becomes their single most indentifiable feature, many can reasonably expect to have some access to illusion spells and/or clickies, depending on their class. So instead of transmog, why not give uncommon/rare items this same ability? That's what I would prefer at least. Clicky effects that would allow an item's appearance to change, not so drastically that it wouldn't share a resemblance, but enough to where the differences would be noticeable even from afar. Savvy players would be able to recognize most any piece of armor at a glance, or at least upon closer inspection, while newbies wouldn't be the wiser.
Random examples...
A double-edged bastard/greatsword could itself be representative of two cultures, with the item's lore explaining that it was once two seperate backswords (or any one-sided sword type) created by two sibling metalworkers who belonged to opposing factions and who spilled each other's blood, dying in combat with the very same swords in hand. And when the war came to an end, with the blacksmiths buried side by side, their sons and daughters fused what remained of both swords together as a symbol of lasting unity, to serve as a reminder that what divides us eventually brings us back together, even if only in death. When right-clicked, the sword takes on the appearance of one sword or the other, suggesting that it contains energy leftover from the previous generation.
A tome that, when right-clicked, shows as either being open or closed, with the appearance reflecting a small but not insignificant stat change. Opened or closed, the tome would provide the same stat total but with its distribution favoring a more aggressive (opened) or defensive (closed) magic user. Similar to animals in the wild, this change in appearance would not be without purpose. A snake rattling its tail. A peacock displaying its train.
An heirloom dress now in tatters, looted off of an undead royal family member; when right-clicked it reveals its original qualities, unbloodied and untorn, a memory accessed by the wearer but no more theirs than the dress itself, with the illusion lasting for some time before eventually fading. Unlimited charges, but with cast time that blurs the player's vision for its duration, similar to a dream sequence/flashback transition effect. Once the illusion is applied, the player's vision is no longer distorted.
Perhaps the completion of a quest would be required first, for the more elegant pieces, with an enchanter NPC or blacksmith PC "jump-starting" what magic still lurked within (right-click illusion) an item, by reintegrating the necessary materials. A simpler option would be to allow worn cloth items to be turned inside out so at least casters would have two color/pattern options with each robe, preventing them from wearing the exact same outfit to the party as another caster.
While not the same as transmog, these alternatives would still provide those who intend to roleplay/fashionquest with more options, without always penalizing them, and it would take very little away from item identity, possibly even adding more if done well.
IMO, transmog type systems defeat the purpose of horizontal progression. If a PC can change the look of a BP, there is not as much reason to actually get the cooler looking "real" BP. I won't be using any cosmetics on my gear. I would rather be able to click off cosmetics of other PCs. If transmogrification is a thing, I'm still gonna play. It's really a minor nuisance. It seems like a lot of programming work for very little benefit.
philo said: In combat, when your performance is based on the gear you have equipped, that is what should be visible... If I see a player doing something awesome that should make me want to acquire the gear they are using in order to be as awesome as they are. In this case, item identity matters.
Daloskar said: Seeing the gear someone is wearing, that they have EARNED through gameplay, is one of the things that is missing from today's MMORPGs... I would much rather see another, higher level perhaps, member of my class walk by with some unique shoulders or a weapon I hadn't seen before. That could spark up a conversation on where or how the item was obtained and would possibly be the start of an in game friendship, or a contact at least. Transmog systems are just another piece in several that when combined have, in my opinion, helped to erode the social element of MMORPGs today.
No, I would not like to 'See' a transmog system in Panth (pun intended).
The above reasons echo my own. My major interest in checking out other player's gear is to see things I might want to strive for. If a transmog system (that isn't restricted to max level players) is available, then within a month or so of release there will be so many players one encounters who's gear no longer looks like what they are actually wearing that I'll loose any interest in what other players are displaying. That would be a loss to my enjoyment of life on Terminus.
If however VR decides to let those who wish to 'see' a transmog system have one, without forcing me to see it, then I would have no basis to complain about it.
Jothany said:If however VR decides to let those who wish to 'see' a transmog system have one, without forcing me to see it, then I would have no basis to complain about it.
Oh, but then you get all the whiners who complain about you not seeing them as they want you to see them. Believe me, this very issue has been brought up as long as transmog/cosmetic/whatever has been discussed. They should just be happy that they see themselves as they want.
Vandraad said: Oh, but then you get all the whiners who complain about you not seeing them as they want you to see them. Believe me, this very issue has been brought up as long as transmog/cosmetic/whatever has been discussed. They should just be happy that they see themselves as they want.
I believe you are quite correct in your assesment.
I just don't think the reality of it will be as much of a concern as the worry about it in advance is. I don't believe that those of us who turn off cosmetics will be more than half the population, and probably way less. So I don't really expect those who like to mess with their appearance to have any problem finding plenty of friends and guildies to share the hobby with. Thus, I don't see them all quitting in protest that SOME of the other players don't care what they look like :)
Hey, I could be wrong. I'll just worry about it when it happens.
Personally I am happy with no transmog at all, but if the game will have it then the people who want to use it should be able to. For this reason I think we need transmog servers.
People want to use transmog to show off and will go so far as buying skins to do that. People are gutting the idea of transmog if they set up a toggle so half the world sees people differently. A toggle just makes transmog worthless.