I love PvP.
I am not a PvP'er. I just strongly feel that MMOs should have open world PvP. For me, in a sense, other player's are part of the environment.
- I want to have the option of farming mobs and politely telling the new fella who shows up to farm them to "keep on moving, buddy", this is my spot.
- I want that fella to assess the situation and make a meaningful decision on whether he wants to call my bluff, move on with his business, or perhaps swing back around the tree and ambush me for disrespecting him like that.
- I want him to be able to return with a few friends and send me on my merry way.
- Maybe he is a great negotiator and could convince me that it is our mutal benefit to farm those mobs together.
- After I kill him, I want his guild to be able to blacklist me from their groups, or vice versa.
... anyways, you get my point. I'm not interested in griefing or exploiting loopholes with the sole intent of ruining other people's expereince. But I believe PvP greatly hightens my experience.
So why do I feel I should mention this to everyone?
Other than enjoying open world PvP (when impletment correctly), I am closely aligned with many of you old school EQ people. I'm ultimately here for the community, for the memories, and to adventure as a part of a team/family.
I have two main concerns:
1. Considering PvP seems to be almost an afterthought in Pantheon, will that mean that PvP will be impletmented with so little effort that it does more harm than good? Does anyone have any answers on how it might be implemented (friendly fire, safe zones, flagging, rules, rewards/punishments, etc.)? I can accept the fact that classes will not be balanced for PvP, and I take no issue with that, but I'm still worried that it won't be worth it in Pantheon - that it will degrade the overall 'Pantheon experience'.
2. As I said, community, teamwork, relationships, memories, adventure... that's what matters. Are there a lot of others out there who want this, but also want open world PvP? I am concerned that all you folks that I believe I would love to experience Pantheon with will be on the PvE servers, while all the toxic tryhard kids will be on my PvP server, possibly to the point that it hurts my local server community / esprit de corps.
So, am I overreacting? Or might it make sense that I forgo my love I have for open world PvP so I can experience Pantheon the way it was "meant to be played"?
I strongly belive that VR wants Pantheon to be perfectly cut gem, so they will focus on PvP at some point - though I'm guessing rather later than earlier. I'd say you'll have to wait for good PvP expirience to second expansion (obviously thats entirely taken from my 3 letters).
I'm pure PvE, so I can't say I care much about this aspect of the game.
Im pure PVE as well. I dont know how pvp is going to be implemented if its not "one on one" of the same class (BOTB style) or team based considering the nature of an interdependant role mmo. Open world pvp does not translate well (read fair) in a game of interdependance of classes. Some folks will be OP in pvp others will be UP unless the spell dat/char dat is artificially manipulated. Being pure PVE perspective the ONLY thing that makes sense to me in terms of ranking your individual PVP score in some sort of balanced system.... would be to fight your own class constantly. It would make us learn from each other in a competitive atmosphere as well which usually breeds genius.
Kass,
I couldn't agree with you more. PVP is the only way to go in my opinion. I think pvp adds an entirely different dynamic to the game, and it makes everything more challenging. That said, here are some of the things that have been said about PVP. In fact, Brad recently wrote a large post about pvp before he passed away: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/186/pantheon-pv-p-launch-vs-post-launch
1. VR believes that having a strong PVE element makes the pvp better. They are focused on making PVE as good as possible and then adding the layer of pvp on top of that, BEFORE release. Without PVE, then mmorpgs tend to just be poorly made arena games.
"I think building PvP on top of PvE really makes a lot of sense. I could go into crazy detail, but let me bring up one huge one (other than balancing): There is a LOT of time invested by PvP-focused players on doing PvE. They need to advance. They need to work on factions. They need to see how their character is progressing in terms of PvE. They are welcome and we certainly want nothing else but that they also enjoy the PvE as well. Lastly it will help PvPers find items, armor, etc. and earning better and better gear. Not to mention trainers being scattered across the land."
-Brad McQuaid
2. PVP and PVE will be balanced independent of each other. In other words, skills will have different effects in PVP than in PVE. At least, I would assume the dmg numbers will change.
"But we are setting up the game such that the power level of any given character in PvE is independent from their power level in PvP thereby avoiding the long, frustrating, difficult chore of trying to, say, up the Paladin’s power for PvE, but at the same time braking the class (say, making it clearly OP) in PvP. We need to be able to do the one without messing up the other. Vice versa also works, where we can tweak PvP without jacking up PvE."
-Brad McQuaid
3. The game will have at least one Open World PVP server at launch, and the team is considering a lot of other rulesets.
"Then, moreover, we need to invest in PvP. I think at launch we will have at least one PvP server, with an emphasis on open PvP. That’s at minimum, btw – I hope to have more variants. I'm just guessing here based on what I internally am aware of, specifically the game, where it's at, and what we need to get done to get to alpha, beta, release, and post-release.
Secondly, there are a lot of fantastic PvP rulesets that the community itself has come to us with and expressed to us. Quite honestly, there's been some really interesting innovation recently with MMOs and other genres. So, I want people to know, to be absolutely clear, that PvP is extremely important to us. I'd love to see servers with a variety of PvP implementations, some of it pretty advanced and interesting enough to get even ME to try it out and invest some real time into."
-Brad McQuaid
Hopefully this helps to ease some of your fears. I for one, can't wait to play on the Open World pvp server in the future. Cheers.
@Kass
I have generally always played PVE due to the griefers. But I see PVP as the only true way to fight back. One has little recourse on a PVE but to report someone and I see that as something that will just over run Big Brother (VR) with more reports than they can handle.
With that said I share much of your reasons for PVP and plan to play pantheon on PVP. What I don't share are your concerns, The VR team has repeatedly shown to be WAY ahead of any ideas, topics, or discussions ever held on these forums. They don't generally share them but when they do they almost always blow me away on how they have already found solutions from our concerns, as well as many we didn't even see. For example class balancing independent between PVP and PVE.
I expect PVP will be no different. I don't expect them to give us much information until the time they see fit. But many on the team are PVP players, so you can trust it hasn't been overlooked.
There have been many discussions over the years on different ways to make a pvp server work well. Of course, there have also been many differing opinions.
Possibilities range from pure free-for-all (anyone can attack anyone else regardless of faction or level or location - outside of a very few safe areas) to faction-based (you cannot attack other members of your faction) to level-based (no "gray ganking" allowed - you cannot attack a character much lower than you are unless he or she does something to permit it - like attack you).
This is very far indeed from a complete list of the possibilities.
Simms59 said:They are focused on making PVE as good as possible and then adding the layer of pvp on top of that, BEFORE release.
Adding - for sure, but in order for PvP to be enjoyable quite a lot of balancing and testing is needed. I'd assume that at the very beginning there will be 1-2 OP classes that will make everyone else a bit miserable ... but we'll see.
Alyonyah said:Some folks will be OP in pvp others will be UP unless the spell dat/char dat is artificially manipulated. Being pure PVE perspective the ONLY thing that makes sense to me in terms of ranking your individual PVP score in some sort of balanced system.... would be to fight your own class constantly. It would make us learn from each other in a competitive atmosphere as well which usually breeds genius.
I don't see it quite like that. Some classes will be great AoE damage dealers, some have CC, some are tankier, some excel in 1v1s... all this matters in open world PvP.
I personally do not like rewards based world PvP. I do not want to gain points or 'honor' for my kills that earn some sort of reward. I just want to be able to PvP with the game giving ZERO incentive to do so - I think it adds to the experience, to the thrill, to the danger. PvP to me does not have to be perfectly balanced or fair - if a rogue is out there 1v1'ing people that walk down a certain road, then the playerbase will adjust - they will come as a group, or take a different route. Groups will Kill on Site that player until their behavior changes - the players can moderate themselves. If it's a true free for all, that's fantasic, because then if one person is crossing the line - literally every player on the server can have it out for them.
I see nothing wrong with abilities modifiers and CC durations being completely different in PvP - For me, the balance of PvP is actually one of the lesser concerns for whether world PvP is implemented correctly.
We are talking about Pantheon being a group centric and community focused game... so if you are a weak PvP class, form those relationships and groups and go out there and stay safe. PvE would still be miles ahead of PvP for me, even on a PvP server.
Zorkon said:@Kass
...What I don't share are your concerns, The VR team has repeatedly shown to be WAY ahead of any ideas, topics, or discussions ever held on these forums.
...I expect PVP will be no different. I don't expect them to give us much information until the time they see fit. But many on the team are PVP players, so you can trust it hasn't been overlooked.
Thanks for chiming in, and ya @Simms59 pointed me to some of that information as well.
Good to hear there are other PvP oriented players out there, but I was concerned because a very high percentage of posters here seem to swear againt open world PvP... but maybe I've just had on the blinders.
Simms59 said:
2. PVP and PVE will be balanced independent of each other. In other words, skills will have different effects in PVP than in PVE. At least, I would assume the dmg numbers will change.
"But we are setting up the game such that the power level of any given character in PvE is independent from their power level in PvP thereby avoiding the long, frustrating, difficult chore of trying to, say, up the Paladin’s power for PvE, but at the same time braking the class (say, making it clearly OP) in PvP. We need to be able to do the one without messing up the other. Vice versa also works, where we can tweak PvP without jacking up PvE."
-Brad McQuaid
Alyonyah said:Some folks will be OP in pvp others will be UP unless the spell dat/char dat is artificially manipulated.
As for the pure pvp perspective sorry about my faux pa. I really dont have a true pvp perspective. I look forward to some brilliant ideas here in this thread though. It looks like I did assume correctly that the spell data will be artificially changed in an attempt to balance the pvp. Seems a bit like it was in EQ. There wasnt any real point to pvp, but it was an option. Is this what the pvp community enjoys most?
Bout to dive into brads post on this topic. Look forward to reading here.
I've typed an answer three times now and am re-typing it again. I really don't want it to seem combative, but it's a tricky subject, as you know.
I think it comes down to this: PvP makes for a very different experience and a lot of people just don't like it. For those people, you can't mix it into PvE without spoiling PvE and even if you add it as a separated experience it is still detracting from PvE development effort.
For those of us who do not enjoy PvP, we of course want VR to concentrate on PvE. Also, they said they would. It's as simple as that.
Personally, a big part of the reason I pledged VIP is because originally we were told it was a PvE only game and part of what has, for me, ruined MMORPGs over the last 20 years is the focus on PvP. Many games pretty much only have PvE as a tedious grind to the max-level PvP experience. A lot of others ruin the PvE balance in order to mix in PvP. A lot of PvP is just gank, counter-gank, grief and counter-grief.
I'm sure at some point VR explicitely said PvP would not be included. Didn't they? I may be mistaken - wishful thinking hehe. Either way they always made it clear (and still do) that PvE is the overriding focus and PvP would not impact that. It was a huge relief to many of us and a big tick near the top of the list of desires for a perfect MMORPG and a big reason we bought in.
Kass said:1. Considering PvP seems to be almost an afterthought in Pantheon, will that mean that PvP will be impletmented with so little effort that it does more harm than good? Does anyone have any answers on how it might be implemented (friendly fire, safe zones, flagging, rules, rewards/punishments, etc.)? I can accept the fact that classes will not be balanced for PvP, and I take no issue with that, but I'm still worried that it won't be worth it in Pantheon - that it will degrade the overall 'Pantheon experience'.
So the simple answer is, yes, it will degrade the overall 'Pantheon experience' as explained above. Pantheon is PvE focused and to mix PvP would be to spoil it and whether mixed or kept completely separate, to develop PvP will obviously redirect development from PvE.
Kass said:2. As I said, community, teamwork, relationships, memories, adventure... that's what matters. Are there a lot of others out there who want this, but also want open world PvP? I am concerned that all you folks that I believe I would love to experience Pantheon with will be on the PvE servers, while all the toxic tryhard kids will be on my PvP server, possibly to the point that it hurts my local server community / esprit de corps.
I can't say for sure, except to say pretty much all the people I have played with over the years have seen PvP as, at best, a bit of unrelated fun and, at worst, something that spoils the PvE, which is what they are playing an MMORPG for. I guess we end up playing with like-minded people, but even so, I would have expected more people I know to enjoy PvP if it were something truly 'popular' with old-school gamers like me and the majority of my friends.
Modern MMORPGs are more and more PvP focused, so you might think that was what the majority want, but the whole point of wanting a game like Pantheon is that it is *not* doing what the modern MMORPG genre is doing. It is intentionally targetting a niche and clearly that niche is old Everquest players like me. Was PvP popular back then? Or was that a niche within a niche?
In my experience games that have made PvP part of its core experience attract the toxic tryhards you mention that enjoy the contention and strife that is of course a staple of PvP. It's in its nature, surely? It does not appear to engender that brothers-in-arms feeling that some PvPers want in anything but a small minority. It mostly ends up in a tit-for-tat, gankfest at individual through to server faction level.
I accept that my experience and opinion is almost certainly tainted, though, as I just don't enjoy MMORPG PvP. I've tried it in several incarnations and it always ends up badly balanced and unfun to me and is wholly unsuited to PvE objectives and enjoyment.
When I want good PvP I play Battlefield. Even that has balancing issues, but much more often is a fair challenging and enjoyable match up. A big reason it works better with an FPS is you don't get anything like the situation of level 20 soldiers picking on level 1 soldiers. A soldier is a soldier and there's a much better chance of reasonable balance and a decent fight.
Kass said:So, am I overreacting? Or might it make sense that I forgo my love I have for open world PvP so I can experience Pantheon the way it was "meant to be played"?
My advice would be to yes, if you want to avoid disappointment, forgo the PvP desires and enjoy Pantheon PvE, since that is, indeed, the way it is "meant to be played".
But perhaps you can hold out hope that VR will, eventually, once PvE is as good as it can be, have spare development time to work on PvP servers.
I hope they do, since that will imply Pantheon has become a massive success (with its intended PvE offering) and can afford to do it without impacting PvE at all.
For the most part in a sense Dispolasists is correct they are creating "the world" and than probably do something with PvP, and at least some time ago they are making PvE and PvP servers completely seperate, even to the point that if they nerf an ability/spell becuase it was too strong on a PvP server it wouldn't affect the PvE servers if it was acting as attended. So simply PvP servers in every aspect possible will be its own world.
Now I'm not saying the PvP servers won't get any love from the Devs as they know they will have some that would want to have their PvP server, but until they actually create the world they are trying to create and add in all the mechanics and everything in the game they are wanted to exsist, pvp is probably on the bottom of the list, which honestly if PvP always bringing in a ton fo balances and everything else whether they did it first or last wouldn't really mean much since balancing pvp is impossible and a never ending changing world, so its best to do it last and give it a ton fo attention at once and not do it with everything else and have it be a complete mess.
Alexander said:I agree, and I think pvp enhances the pve gameplay. Hopefully we'll have mostly mature pvpers in Pantheon. I think a free-for-all would be great!
From the ammount of focus that they (devs) put into lore-friendlieness and logical choices in Pantheon i doubt it will be (and should be) free for all (at least in the normal sense). I'd limit it somehow: either evil vs good races (vs neutral?, or as a neutral you'd have to allign yourself at one point with either one) - perhaps with the ability to duel with your brothers-in-arms, or that you can't fight your own race, or "free for all" but with additional penalty of decreasing your standing with npc faction if you do kill person from the same allignment/race.
Hegenox said:Alexander said:I agree, and I think pvp enhances the pve gameplay. Hopefully we'll have mostly mature pvpers in Pantheon. I think a free-for-all would be great!
From the ammount of focus that they (devs) put into lore-friendlieness and logical choices in Pantheon i doubt it will be (and should be) free for all (at least in the normal sense). I'd limit it somehow: either evil vs good races (vs neutral?, or as a neutral you'd have to allign yourself at one point with either one) - perhaps with the ability to duel with your brothers-in-arms, or that you can't fight your own race, or "free for all" but with additional penalty of decreasing your standing with npc faction if you do kill person from the same allignment/race.
I would do a 3 way split, 2 way split cuases to many problems and cuases a severe inbalance of power, either the evil races get overrunned and becomes unplayable, or they will be the strong ones and make it unplayable for the good guys, as 3 way splits pretty much prevents this from happening becuase if other factions realize one faction is becoming to strong they can work together and not aginast eavh other.
so in my head i see it as
Dark Myr, Skar, Ogre
Drawf, Halfling, Gnome(or Elf)
Human, Arachai, Elf(or Gnome)
those who love the pvp as you see the pve scenario?
1 a tedious scenario of a brainless 1 2 3 waiting for another player to arrive to give excitement and challenge to the game
2 or a challenging pve scenario in which you have to use all your resources and know that if another player arrives at that time you are dead
"Secondly, there are a lot of fantastic PvP rulesets that the community itself has come to us with and expressed to us. Quite honestly, there's been some really interesting innovation recently with MMOs and other genres. So, I want people to know, to be absolutely clear, that PvP is extremely important to us. I'd love to see servers with a variety of PvP implementations, some of it pretty advanced and interesting enough to get even ME to try it out and invest some real time into."
Read through brads entire thread this morning. This was the most promising element for me. Looks like VR is going to be strong pvp. Im excited for that, and thats wierd for me =p.
I think what would alleviate a lot of anxiety about PvP is if they have their own section in the forums. Not having any section about PvP seems like it isn't even being though of.
I used to PvP regularly, played Shadowbane, Neocron, on Gorefiend in WoW. Played on a blue server in EQ though so can't comment on that. I will say that I have yet to play an MMoG that PvP changes did not directly impact PvE. I know people are saying that the PvP server changes won't affect the PvE ones but I am curious how that is going to happen. Are they going to have two separate builds? If so does that mean they have to test each one when they want to patch the world? Seems rather ambitious of such a small team and a lot of work for a single server. Don't get me wrong, all these types of games have to have PvP in them to keep them going, I might not participate but I do support it. I just am a bit anxious about how they are going to implement it and hope they can pull it off.
Elki said:those who love the pvp as you see the pve scenario?
1 a tedious scenario of a brainless 1 2 3 waiting for another player to arrive to give excitement and challenge to the game
2 or a challenging pve scenario in which you have to use all your resources and know that if another player arrives at that time you are dead
I think one of the problems is (and the sour tastes in people's mouths concerning PvP) that in many of these other MMOs you are highly incentivized to kill on sight. You get some sort of 'honor points' or tangible rewards for killing everyone that you are capable of killing. That is not what I want, and hopefully not what the other PvP supporters want.
I advocate for ABSOLUTELY ZERO direct incentives for open world PvP. The need/desire to engage in open world PvP would be purely player and environment driven. That to me would be the foundation for a healthy open world PvP experience. Actually, I would be for some sort of built in system to disuade players from "griefing" (and I put that in quotes because a lot of what PvP haters call griefing I don't think is greifing at all), but I would be open to some sort of in-game bounty or designation on a player who is on a streak of killing players in the open world - maybe a sign in a town with the players name, and when you return proof of a kill on that player you receive some gold - and then that player is removed from the bounty poster until next time he/she is on a killing streak.
And if there are no incentives, we wouldn't have to be worried about being killed every time someone walks up. That addresses #2.
As far as your #1, if someone only gets enjoyment out of PvP and lives every minute of his life preparing and attempting to kill people, then this probably isn't the game for them, because I don't want a game that incentivizes that. But if that person exists that's fine, because the community can self regulate that and work together to stay safe when that player is out hunting. Even as someone who wants PvP to be part of the game, I want to play Pantheon... and I want to be immersed in the PvE experience just as much as any PvP hater out there... I don't think they are mutually exclusive.