Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

PvP server qualms

    • 3237 posts
    December 8, 2019 11:05 PM PST

    No worries at all.  I just want to make sure that our PVP community feels like Pantheon can be their MMO home in the future, and that our PVE community doesn't try to diminish the value of the PVP experience (and the crowd it has attracted) because of issues from unrelated games.  We're all on the same side when it comes to shipping Pantheon and should always look to nurture the community rather than divide it.  I understand the concerns that were expressed and hope that the FAQ excerpt cleared them up.  (This is not directed at you Riahuf.)


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 8, 2019 11:07 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    December 8, 2019 11:21 PM PST

    Kass said:

    As for my comment, why can't they accomplish this? I don't understand why they couldn't balance them both separately, even on a PvP server. For example, If healers heals are too OP in PvP, why can't they just make them do X% less healing on a target engaged in PvP combat while keeping their heal in PvE combat the same? Or if CC is too strong for PvP reduce it by X% or increase the chance to break it. Is this something that is beyond 2019 technology? - serious question cause I'm ignorant to these sort of things.

    Furthermore, maybe I'm a minority, but I don't care if a few classes are overpowered or underpowered in PvP. I'm not looking for anything close to a competitive PvP arena / tournament style experience. As I stated before, I personally want ZERO incentives for engaging in PvP and subsequently zero rewards... I'm starting to think I like to PvP in a very different way than many people assume all PvPers want to.

    Lastly, if PvP greatly affects the intended PvE balance on PvP servers, then I for one will not play on a PvP server. Hopefully VR can solve this issue.

    I understand the logic behind what you are saying but I do think it would be incredibly difficult to code.  I don't think it's impossible but the qualifier for "being engaged in PVP combat" would probably have to be adjusted to prevent exploitation.  Just imagine a situation where a few classes are stronger in PVE due to PVP balancing.  Prior to engaging a raid boss, ally players attack them with their weakest ability and it triggers the "engaged in PVP combat" condition.  Those players then get healed to full and engage the raid boss with their PVP condition intact, fully capable of leveraging any bonuses associated with that.  There is also the other side of the coin where a rival team could attack you while you're attempting a boss and trigger any negatives associated with the "engaged in PVP combat" condition, not to mention all of the other stuff they can do to disrupt the traditional PVE experience.  (Kill your healer, disarm your tank, CC players, intentionally train, etc.)  I think we are far more likely to see a situation where PVP servers are just balanced separately, for better or worse as it relates to PVE gameplay, and players make do with what they have.  


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 8, 2019 11:34 PM PST
    • 521 posts
    December 8, 2019 11:27 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Kass said:

    As for my comment, why can't they accomplish this? I don't understand why they couldn't balance them both separately, even on a PvP server. For example, If healers heals are too OP in PvP, why can't they just make them do X% less healing on a target engaged in PvP combat while keeping their heal in PvE combat the same? Or if CC is too strong for PvP reduce it by X% or increase the chance to break it. Is this something that is beyond 2019 technology? - serious question cause I'm ignorant to these sort of things.

    Furthermore, maybe I'm a minority, but I don't care if a few classes are overpowered or underpowered in PvP. I'm not looking for anything close to a competitive PvP arena / tournament style experience. As I stated before, I personally want ZERO incentives for engaging in PvP and subsequently zero rewards... I'm starting to think I like to PvP in a very different way than many people assume all PvPers want to.

    Lastly, if PvP greatly affects the intended PvE balance on PvP servers, then I for one will not play on a PvP server. Hopefully VR can solve this issue.

    I understand the logic behind what you are saying but I do think it would be incredibly difficult to code.  I don't think it's impossible but the qualifier for "being engaged in PVP combat" would probably have to be adjusted to prevent exploitation.  Just imagine a situation where a few classes are stronger in PVE due to PVP balancing.  Prior to engaging a raid boss, ally players attack them with their weakest ability and it triggers the "engaged in PVP combat" condition.  Those players then get healed to full and engage the raid boss with their PVP condition intact, fully capable of leveraging any bonuses associated with that.  I think we are far more likely to see a situation where PVP servers are just balanced separately, for better or worse as it relates to PVE gameplay, and players make do with what they have.

     

     

    The FAQ you quoted also says “This FAQ is a living, evolving document.”

    That was last updated February 20, 2017, nearly 3 years ago.

    However, Ive never disputed they Said PVE wont be affected by PVP, but Historically game after game has failed to achieve this. They may be able to do it, who knows, but since its been nearly 3 years we don't even know if PVP is on their radar anymore, A lot has changed since 2017.

    Eitherway I hope the game succeeds, with or without PVP.

    • 3237 posts
    December 8, 2019 11:37 PM PST

    HemlockReaper said:

    However, Ive never disputed they Said PVE wont be affected by PVP, but Historically game after game has failed to achieve this.

    Is there another game that tried the planned solution that has been referenced for Pantheon?  It seems like an incredibly simple task that would be hard to mess up as long as they don't cross their streams.  If other games attempted to do the same, and history shows repeated failure, that is definitely worth looking into.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 8, 2019 11:38 PM PST
    • 1584 posts
    December 9, 2019 12:10 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    However, Ive never disputed they Said PVE wont be affected by PVP, but Historically game after game has failed to achieve this.

    Is there another game that tried the planned solution that has been referenced for Pantheon?  It seems like an incredibly simple task that would be hard to mess up as long as they don't cross their streams.  If other games attempted to do the same, and history shows repeated failure, that is definitely worth looking into.

    Look at PvP and PvE servers as two completely different games sharing the same content, they will not infulence each toher at all, unlike WoW, When WoW bring out a patch it affects all of their Servers.  When VR does a Patch for PvP it will only be downloaded to PvP servers, if it is a PvE patch it will only affect PvE servers, they wont be connented like every toher MMO I've played anyway.  This is what we are meaning that they are two different streams.  

    Lol thought i qouted Hemlock and not you 1AD7 lol

    Plus even though i will be playing on a PvE server i can say taking away PvP would be the opposite of Evolving, as to many people would like this to be available to them and to take something like this out would more than likely make them quite upset when for years they have said it will be there it will merely just take time to include it, but i expect it to be there by luanch for obvious reasons.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at December 9, 2019 1:03 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    December 9, 2019 1:28 AM PST

    Kass said:

    disposalist said:

    My advice would be to yes, if you want to avoid disappointment, forgo the PvP desires and enjoy Pantheon PvE, since that is, indeed, the way it is "meant to be played".

    Thank you are addressing my post. I obviously wouldn't ask if I didn't feel it was a feel concern of mine. Time will tell whether I choose to give up on PvP (probably not, unless the way it's implemented compromises the PvE - which is subjective I know).

    They'll get to it eventually. They've said they will. I'm not sure how much attention it will get early on, though and, as I've said, I dont want it to be to the detriment of PvE, which is why I advise not holding your breath for a sophisticated PvP implementation at launch.

    Kass said:

    I hear your opinion, but with caution - as you are a dirty PvE hater to the core :) ... maybe a little bias?

    Hehe, yeah, definitely a little ;^)

    I hope my post didn't seem too combative!

    Kass said:

    All joking aside, I totally respect the fact some people want to play MMOs with zero PvP. I want a good PvP experience in Pantheon, but rest assured that I want the true 'Pantheon experience' to be in my PvP game and I don't want VR to compromise a single element of the true PvE Pantheon experience to give that to me. For me it's not PvP or PvE - they aren't mutally exclusiive. PvP enhances my PvE experience and adds another layer of fun/difficulty/stress/excitment/teamwork etc. into the game.

    Understood. To me it ruins it when mixed. Or at least it always had in previous games. But, maybe VR can do it better? I don't mind some danger of a challenging fight, but gank and counter-gank and circle-ganks and group-counter-circle-ganks are not what I would deem to be enhancing anything.

    Kass said:

    People that just want to PvP and be "rank 1" and be rewarded for such are not the type of PvP'ers I want in this game. They can go play one of the many PvP centric games out there imo, and if the PvP server turns into that, I'll be back on a PvE server next login.

    Yeah, I get, unfortunately, you would need an incarantion of PvP I've never seen or heard of to avoid that kind of player being attracted and dominant.

    As I say, maybe VR can do it.  I'd love it if I could enjoy PvP for once.

    Still, I'd prefer they concentrate on PvE first ;^)

    As for comments about separate experiences: I would imagine that there would be a lot of pure PvE servers even if/when VR impliment PvP, so it's only a problem of development time, and they could surely produce something to keep PvPers content with not too much effort and then work on it more later when Pantheon is a huge success and they have money coming out of their ears.

    And as for PvP having its own forum section, yeah, I think it should. Not because we should keep those weirdos segregated hehe, but because it definitely is its own destinct 'area' of interest with unique things to discuss. I hope Kilsin sets one up.


    This post was edited by disposalist at December 9, 2019 1:33 AM PST
    • 159 posts
    December 9, 2019 2:05 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    Kass said:

    People that just want to PvP and be "rank 1" and be rewarded for such are not the type of PvP'ers I want in this game. They can go play one of the many PvP centric games out there imo, and if the PvP server turns into that, I'll be back on a PvE server next login.

    Yeah, I get, unfortunately, you would need an incarantion of PvP I've never seen or heard of to avoid that kind of player being attracted and dominant.

    As I say, maybe VR can do it.  I'd love it if I could enjoy PvP for once.

    I think one step is that which I've mentioned a few times already: Have zero incentives to engage in world PvP - That goes a long way in eliminating unhealthy behaviors imo.

    A PvP server could be something that doesn't even come out until late beta - just to test the functionality of whatever PvP mechanisms they introduce. It doesn't honestly seem like a huge undertaking compared to most other game mechanics, but maybe it's a lot more work than I think.

     

    • 9115 posts
    December 9, 2019 4:19 AM PST

    Kass said:

     

    Alyonyah said:

    Walpurgis said:

    I think what would alleviate a lot of anxiety about PvP is if they have their own section in the forums.  Not having any section about PvP seems like it isn't even being though of.

     

    You raise a good point there. Might be dead on.

    @Kilsin @VR

    I think this makes a lot of sense and is a reasonable request. Can we do this?

    Maybe a subfolder? ... I've wondered for a while now why there are no subfolders. Like for example, why not put "Keepings of Castigue" and "The Keeper's Vault" as subfolders under "Pantheon Lore" ... I think it would clean up the site a bit imo.

     

    I have explained this previously mate - when we show off PvP we will open subforums for PvPers to discuss that playstyle, until then, we focus on the core PvE game and focus discussions around that and what we have already shown off and plan to show off in the near future.

    A lot of the Devs love PvP too and have said they want to do it justice - on its own server(s) and we have explained why it's important to separate the servers a few times (completely different mindsets and playstyles that never work well being forced together in any game) but again, the focus right now is on the core game.

    Once we start work on PvP we will tap into the community like we do with everything else and get your feedback and suggestions to make sure we get PvP right :)

    • 160 posts
    December 9, 2019 5:04 AM PST

    Kass said:

    I love PvP.

    I am not a PvP'er. I just strongly feel that MMOs should have open world PvP. For me, in a sense, other player's are part of the environment.

    - I want to have the option of farming mobs and politely telling the new fella who shows up to farm them to "keep on moving, buddy", this is my spot.

     

    The experience you describe sounds more like a nice wish than a possible reality.

    That new fella will show up with 5 buddies, and the only option you will have is to run or die. Or to call your buddies in, and then it comes down to who's the member of a bigger guild.

    Or he will show up powerleveled, with items maxed out, everything he can theoretically equip based on any item-level-limits they put into the game, with the intention just to kill others with his uber stuff.

     

    Or he will show up just as you're fighting a hard mob, and start nuking you from the distance, laugh as you die, and finish off the mob you were fighting.

    And this will happen just as you come tired from work and want for nothing more but to relax for an hour.

     

    What you want is a fair PvP fight. I understand that. I also want many things, such as a latest Porsche or even better, a real Millenium Falcon.

    Chances of either are about the same.

     

     

     

    • 520 posts
    December 9, 2019 5:54 AM PST

    Aethor said:

    Kass said:

    I love PvP.

    I am not a PvP'er. I just strongly feel that MMOs should have open world PvP. For me, in a sense, other player's are part of the environment.

    - I want to have the option of farming mobs and politely telling the new fella who shows up to farm them to "keep on moving, buddy", this is my spot.

     

    The experience you describe sounds more like a nice wish than a possible reality.

    That new fella will show up with 5 buddies, and the only option you will have is to run or die. Or to call your buddies in, and then it comes down to who's the member of a bigger guild.

    Or he will show up powerleveled, with items maxed out, everything he can theoretically equip based on any item-level-limits they put into the game, with the intention just to kill others with his uber stuff.

     

    Or he will show up just as you're fighting a hard mob, and start nuking you from the distance, laugh as you die, and finish off the mob you were fighting.

    And this will happen just as you come tired from work and want for nothing more but to relax for an hour.

     

    What you want is a fair PvP fight. I understand that. I also want many things, such as a latest Porsche or even better, a real Millenium Falcon.

    Chances of either are about the same.

     

     

    That is true. I agree with Kass that it would be great in the perfect scenario, but this is utopian dream that just wouldn't work .

     

    Kilsin said:

    I have explained this previously mate - when we show off PvP we will open subforums for PvPers to discuss that playstyle, until then, we focus on the core PvE game and focus discussions around that and what we have already shown off and plan to show off in the near future.

    I don't want to create separate topic just for this so I'll ask here since the topic of subforums has been touched: How about subforum for people "Looking for a Guild"? There is a forum where guilds advertise themselves, but why not give "mercenaries" opportunity to show intent of finding a "liege" or family with traits and values that they are searching for?

    • 291 posts
    December 9, 2019 6:43 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    I have explained this previously mate - when we show off PvP we will open subforums for PvPers to discuss that playstyle, until then, we focus on the core PvE game and focus discussions around that and what we have already shown off and plan to show off in the near future.

    A lot of the Devs love PvP too and have said they want to do it justice - on its own server(s) and we have explained why it's important to separate the servers a few times (completely different mindsets and playstyles that never work well being forced together in any game) but again, the focus right now is on the core game.

    Once we start work on PvP we will tap into the community like we do with everything else and get your feedback and suggestions to make sure we get PvP right :)

     

    I had missed this. My apologies Im still catching up with topics.

    • 159 posts
    December 9, 2019 1:38 PM PST
    @aethor

    It's hard to gauge your experience in open world PvP, so I don't want to insult you guys to say you're ignorant PvE lovers, but that "Utopia" is hardly impossible to achieve.

    I know it might be hard to believe, but I welcome that Mage who waits until I'm 5% to nuke me from behind a tree. I'm fine with a try hard twink working his but off to get every BiS item while leveling and 1v3'ing players at or even above his/her level. I'm okay with a guy in a big guild grabbing his 5 buddies and camping my corpse if I rubbed him the wrong way.

    Is this what I hope happens every time I login? No. But really really think... in a Free For All PvP environment in a group centric MMO, are we all just gonna kill each other every time we cross paths?... Lol, that's so naive and if you think that's how PvP servers have to function, you either A) are a PvE carebear who has to convince themselves on why they have made a superior choice over a PvP neanderthal, or B) you have played some really poor ly designed games or with some really shitty people.

    I get that you want to relax after a long day at work and never be attacked by a real life player in an MMO because its inconvenient, but please don't assume that's how everyone wants to play.

    I'm not looking for a "Utopia" - that's what PvE servers are for.
    • 159 posts
    December 9, 2019 1:49 PM PST
    @Kilsin

    Sorry you had to come in on a Monday and clean house, lol. We cause some work for you in the forums, I see.

    Appreciate the clarification, and I wouldn't have made the thread if I knew that coming in, but I haven't been able to keep up with every announcement over the past couple years.
    • 1399 posts
    December 9, 2019 2:30 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    Look at PvP and PvE servers as two completely different games sharing the same content, they will not infulence each toher at all, unlike WoW, When WoW bring out a patch it affects all of their Servers.  When VR does a Patch for PvP it will only be downloaded to PvP servers, if it is a PvE patch it will only affect PvE servers, they wont be connented like every toher MMO I've played anyway.  This is what we are meaning that they are two different streams.  

    Ummm, no!

    What I see you describeing is separate source code for both PVP and PVE and is just the opposite of them saying it's a easy solution.

    More likely there server side config files for the servers, that don't get patched. These files will dictate the server being PVP or PVE as well as hundreds if not thousands of parameters. Those parameters will include spell/ability time, duration, streangth, resistance, etc.

    The source will remain the same, when a patch is done they will all be patched. the data sheets will adjust the parameters.

    I can't say this is exactly how they will handle it, (values built in to the source for PVP and PVE may prove more efficant)  but I can say two separate source codes would be obseen!

    • 1584 posts
    December 9, 2019 4:01 PM PST

    Zorkon said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    Look at PvP and PvE servers as two completely different games sharing the same content, they will not infulence each toher at all, unlike WoW, When WoW bring out a patch it affects all of their Servers.  When VR does a Patch for PvP it will only be downloaded to PvP servers, if it is a PvE patch it will only affect PvE servers, they wont be connented like every toher MMO I've played anyway.  This is what we are meaning that they are two different streams.  

    Ummm, no!

    What I see you describeing is separate source code for both PVP and PVE and is just the opposite of them saying it's a easy solution.

    More likely there server side config files for the servers, that don't get patched. These files will dictate the server being PVP or PVE as well as hundreds if not thousands of parameters. Those parameters will include spell/ability time, duration, streangth, resistance, etc.

    The source will remain the same, when a patch is done they will all be patched. the data sheets will adjust the parameters.

    I can't say this is exactly how they will handle it, (values built in to the source for PVP and PVE may prove more efficant)  but I can say two separate source codes would be obseen!

     What i said and what you said is basically solving the same goal in a different way, either way whatever they choose won't probably bother me much.

    Plus they could do exactly what WoW is doing where they are seperating WoW classic from live which makes sense, but you could add the same thing to keep PvE and PvP seperate, and ultimately solving the problem all together.  that way if you log on to the game with PvE selected you will only get the patches for PvE and PvE server and vise versa for PvP.  Either way it solves all the issues and you don't even have to worry about parameters at all wince they would be completely seperate from the beginning.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at December 9, 2019 4:38 PM PST
    • 1584 posts
    December 9, 2019 4:08 PM PST

    Kass said: @aethor It's hard to gauge your experience in open world PvP, so I don't want to insult you guys to say you're ignorant PvE lovers, but that "Utopia" is hardly impossible to achieve. I know it might be hard to believe, but I welcome that Mage who waits until I'm 5% to nuke me from behind a tree. I'm fine with a try hard twink working his but off to get every BiS item while leveling and 1v3'ing players at or even above his/her level. I'm okay with a guy in a big guild grabbing his 5 buddies and camping my corpse if I rubbed him the wrong way. Is this what I hope happens every time I login? No. But really really think... in a Free For All PvP environment in a group centric MMO, are we all just gonna kill each other every time we cross paths?... Lol, that's so naive and if you think that's how PvP servers have to function, you either A) are a PvE carebear who has to convince themselves on why they have made a superior choice over a PvP neanderthal, or B) you have played some really poor ly designed games or with some really shitty people. I get that you want to relax after a long day at work and never be attacked by a real life player in an MMO because its inconvenient, but please don't assume that's how everyone wants to play. I'm not looking for a "Utopia" - that's what PvE servers are for.

    I got a huge feeling it won't be Free for all anyway, i honestly see the 3 way split being the best approach, as free for all pretty much only really works in a PvP focused game, and 2 way split is just bad in geenral and is never as good as it sounds, as 3 way split makes it to where usually where servers dont become overly populated with a certain faction and you can run around certain areas and see certain races you know who can be your friends simply due to them sharing the same faction.  Obviously this doesn't stop you from making friends that have an opposite faction but it does cuase you to be cuatious when you see them.

    • 1428 posts
    December 9, 2019 9:28 PM PST

    @dorotea XD that i do!  really busy lately with christmas around the corner.  been eyeballing this thread ^_^

     

    pvp in and open world is fundamentally different from pvp that is faction based, like wow.  when anybody can kill anybody, people tend to behave quite a bit more.  when there is only 1 pvp server, even more so.  reputation amongst pvpers, famous or infamous, travels very fast.  an informal etiquette usually crops up.

     

    i'm hoping for parameters in which every player is friendly.  if a player, party or raid would like to engage in hostilities, they can "flag" and attack any other players, but in return- any number set of players can attack hostile flagged players.  killing npcs should not be a possibility(period- as this prevents quest giver killing, shop killing, etc).  if hostilities get really bad, guilds and declare direct hostility to other guilds.  this parameter is tried and true in bdo(black desert online, i could talk about it more if you'd like).  this effectively keeps conflicts player to player ONLY without breaking any pve content directly.  it is PLAYER vs PLAYER after all.  basic stuff like, level 20 and below can't be pvp targeted, safe zones, karma systems, etc. etc. should also be put in place.

     

    pvpers are savages i admit, but we aren't heathens for the most part.  we do operate under some form of unwritten laws.  just for context, potting and elixiring could be considered rude or a great sign of respect.  being pushed out a rotation means you've lost rights to it.  3 attempts is usually acceptable.  getting ganged up is acceptable(means i better learn how to make friends or find a guild).  not all pvpers play to grief, most of us just want to take matters into our own hands.

     

    i wouldn't worry too much right now kass.  most the pvpers are quietly watching the forums here and there, but i know there's a bit more voice starting to rise up from the depths.

    joppa is going to be the lead on pvp from what i understand.

     

    as far as developments goes, most pvpers i've talked to here agree that pvp should be worked on after the pve infrastructure is built.  i've played many pvp mmos that have a very poor pve foundation and they end up falling into the void. 

    technicalities for separating pvp to pve has come a long way.  wow probably has issues doing this because their game engine isn't designed to do it well(although that might be different nowadays).

    many modern pvp mmos already have ways to split what spells or abilities do from pvp to pve.  i keep saying this, but unity is really robust and modular.  i don't think it'll be taxing to set this up.  with that said, long time pvpers should understand that pvp in mmos should NOT be balanced for 1v1(this could be a topic of discussion, but i ain't got time right now to dive into it).  if i wanted 1v1 balance, play a fighting game.  pvp in mmos should be balanced in either small, large scale or possibly both.  depends on the flavour vr wants.

     

    btw, i'd like to thank the pvers for being civil here(bs talking is pretty common for pvpers, so that's nice to see we appear more civil.  i probably just jinxed it XD).  nice to see more open minded discussions welcoming to this type of play(we'll be on separate servers), but we are all just looking for a great mmo to play.


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at December 9, 2019 9:35 PM PST
    • 159 posts
    December 9, 2019 10:15 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    Kass said: @aethor It's hard to gauge your experience in open world PvP, so I don't want to insult you guys to say you're ignorant PvE lovers, but that "Utopia" is hardly impossible to achieve. I know it might be hard to believe, but I welcome that Mage who waits until I'm 5% to nuke me from behind a tree. I'm fine with a try hard twink working his but off to get every BiS item while leveling and 1v3'ing players at or even above his/her level. I'm okay with a guy in a big guild grabbing his 5 buddies and camping my corpse if I rubbed him the wrong way. Is this what I hope happens every time I login? No. But really really think... in a Free For All PvP environment in a group centric MMO, are we all just gonna kill each other every time we cross paths?... Lol, that's so naive and if you think that's how PvP servers have to function, you either A) are a PvE carebear who has to convince themselves on why they have made a superior choice over a PvP neanderthal, or B) you have played some really poor ly designed games or with some really shitty people. I get that you want to relax after a long day at work and never be attacked by a real life player in an MMO because its inconvenient, but please don't assume that's how everyone wants to play. I'm not looking for a "Utopia" - that's what PvE servers are for.

    I got a huge feeling it won't be Free for all anyway, i honestly see the 3 way split being the best approach, as free for all pretty much only really works in a PvP focused game, and 2 way split is just bad in geenral and is never as good as it sounds, as 3 way split makes it to where usually where servers dont become overly populated with a certain faction and you can run around certain areas and see certain races you know who can be your friends simply due to them sharing the same faction.  Obviously this doesn't stop you from making friends that have an opposite faction but it does cuase you to be cuatious when you see them.

    I disagree. I would much rather have free for all (obviously with some stipulations on when / where) than a 3 way split... I feel like a 3 way split would really hurt the PvE side, as now any given faction is severely limited in their player pool.

    How does it not stop you from making friends of an opposite faction? Are you suggesting opposing factions could group up and quest together?

    Anyways, no point in going too deep into it atm. @Kilsin made it sound like a solid plan is in the works, but just a matter of time before we'll see it and can subsequently break it down and discuss the intricacies.

    • 1714 posts
    December 9, 2019 10:17 PM PST

    Kass said: @Kilsin Sorry you had to come in on a Monday and clean house, lol. We cause some work for you in the forums, I see. Appreciate the clarification, and I wouldn't have made the thread if I knew that coming in, but I haven't been able to keep up with every announcement over the past couple years.

     

    Minutes and minutes a week. 

    • 159 posts
    December 9, 2019 10:22 PM PST

    stellarmind said:

    i wouldn't worry too much right now kass.  most the pvpers are quietly watching the forums here and there, but i know there's a bit more voice starting to rise up from the depths.

    joppa is going to be the lead on pvp from what i understand.

     

    I knew you were a PvP enthusiast based on past comments, so glad to see you chime in. I felt the need to make a thread because of the lack of discussion on the topic. I understand that we are the minority in the crowd of the old school pledgers (at least it seems like we are), but I needed confirmation for myself that it wasn't something that I was going to be sorely disappointed in. I couldn't find any old threads with people discussing PvP.

    That being said, it was fairly civil, but I still see a stigma out there that every PvP game is rampant with griefing PvP zombies with no sense of honor or integrity. I like some of your ideas and would love to expound upon them once we get the PvP section open (so we can tell the haters to kick rocks :) 


    This post was edited by Kass at December 9, 2019 11:51 PM PST
    • 159 posts
    December 9, 2019 10:24 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    Kass said: @Kilsin Sorry you had to come in on a Monday and clean house, lol. We cause some work for you in the forums, I see. Appreciate the clarification, and I wouldn't have made the thread if I knew that coming in, but I haven't been able to keep up with every announcement over the past couple years.

     

    Minutes and minutes a week. 

    He must read really fast if he can catch up on so many pages in minutes.

    I know one thing he doesn't spend time on is trying to determine whether every single one of your comments are full of a sarcastic lack of wit - even a newish guy like me put that together in no time.


    This post was edited by Kass at December 9, 2019 11:11 PM PST
    • 1584 posts
    December 10, 2019 1:54 AM PST

    Kass said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    Kass said: @aethor It's hard to gauge your experience in open world PvP, so I don't want to insult you guys to say you're ignorant PvE lovers, but that "Utopia" is hardly impossible to achieve. I know it might be hard to believe, but I welcome that Mage who waits until I'm 5% to nuke me from behind a tree. I'm fine with a try hard twink working his but off to get every BiS item while leveling and 1v3'ing players at or even above his/her level. I'm okay with a guy in a big guild grabbing his 5 buddies and camping my corpse if I rubbed him the wrong way. Is this what I hope happens every time I login? No. But really really think... in a Free For All PvP environment in a group centric MMO, are we all just gonna kill each other every time we cross paths?... Lol, that's so naive and if you think that's how PvP servers have to function, you either A) are a PvE carebear who has to convince themselves on why they have made a superior choice over a PvP neanderthal, or B) you have played some really poor ly designed games or with some really shitty people. I get that you want to relax after a long day at work and never be attacked by a real life player in an MMO because its inconvenient, but please don't assume that's how everyone wants to play. I'm not looking for a "Utopia" - that's what PvE servers are for.

    I got a huge feeling it won't be Free for all anyway, i honestly see the 3 way split being the best approach, as free for all pretty much only really works in a PvP focused game, and 2 way split is just bad in geenral and is never as good as it sounds, as 3 way split makes it to where usually where servers dont become overly populated with a certain faction and you can run around certain areas and see certain races you know who can be your friends simply due to them sharing the same faction.  Obviously this doesn't stop you from making friends that have an opposite faction but it does cuase you to be cuatious when you see them.

    I disagree. I would much rather have free for all (obviously with some stipulations on when / where) than a 3 way split... I feel like a 3 way split would really hurt the PvE side, as now any given faction is severely limited in their player pool.

    How does it not stop you from making friends of an opposite faction? Are you suggesting opposing factions could group up and quest together?

    Anyways, no point in going too deep into it atm. @Kilsin made it sound like a solid plan is in the works, but just a matter of time before we'll see it and can subsequently break it down and discuss the intricacies.

     

    I'm not even going to argue this point, I merely just stated my opinion and I'm not even going to be playing on a PvP server.  If you think Free for All is the right approach than hey kuddos to you, and maybe your right, but I've never seen it work, and in my honest opinion all i can really see is a blood bath especially at the beginning of launch.  But maybe your right, who knows but i just don't see it from my prespective.

    And BTW @Stellarmind it would be impossible for WoW to seperate PvE from PvP due to how they have Their BG's setup, they would have to revert it all back to with Server only and a ton of other things just to even try and i just got a good feeling they wouldn't even bother becuase than they would have the PvPers complaining that the queues are simply too long, so I tihnk there main issue would be the BG's in general, plus that would be a ton to seperate since they didn't do it at the beginning anyway.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at December 10, 2019 2:04 AM PST
    • 159 posts
    December 10, 2019 2:32 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    I'm not even going to argue this point, I merely just stated my opinion and I'm not even going to be playing on a PvP server. 

    Ya man, I'm not arguing. I'm just saying it sounds like it could work.

    But I was curious on what you were saying about grouping with opposing factions in your 3 faction idea... or did I misread that.

    • 1584 posts
    December 10, 2019 3:45 AM PST

    Kass said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    I'm not even going to argue this point, I merely just stated my opinion and I'm not even going to be playing on a PvP server. 

    Ya man, I'm not arguing. I'm just saying it sounds like it could work.

    But I was curious on what you were saying about grouping with opposing factions in your 3 faction idea... or did I misread that.

    It happened all the time on EQ and it was a 4 way split, I remember when i was playing on Vallon Zek, people did this all the time, and honestly from my prespective if people can learn to grp together when it free for all than i don't see how a 3 way split can be any different.  

    • 1428 posts
    December 10, 2019 8:33 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    And BTW @Stellarmind it would be impossible for WoW to seperate PvE from PvP due to how they have Their BG's setup, they would have to revert it all back to with Server only and a ton of other things just to even try and i just got a good feeling they wouldn't even bother becuase than they would have the PvPers complaining that the queues are simply too long, so I tihnk there main issue would be the BG's in general, plus that would be a ton to seperate since they didn't do it at the beginning anyway.

    i mean with spells and abilities.  when they designed the game, the figured damaging mobs shouldn't be different from damaging players.  we ended up with scenarios where players were one shotting players due to power creep.

     

    they ended up with pvp gear that was reducing damage vs other players as a workaround.

     

    the technology that uwudune and joppa were eluding is that they set the parameters of spells and abilities to have different scaling if the target was a player or a mob.

    in this case, i could then tweak balance changes pvp wise without hindering pve balance(many modern mmos are doing this if they have pvp in mind).

     

    i'm okay with bgs and botb tournies(i think party vs party should be the scale), but folding the content creatively into the world would be a dream.

    to clarify, gaining territorial control as a guild nets bonuses for that guild only for the day, like bonus drop rate- movespeed buff out of combat- bonus gathering for lifeskillers(i'm seriously just mooching bdo but have cooler stuff beside winning tax money XD)

     

    also, bgs i would say are okay, but really i would just fold them into world conflicts.  botb is interesting.  this really, if done well, attracts alot of powerful external support.  basically getting the eyes of the esport scene would be extremely profitable.  keep in mind there's loads of mmo pvpers looking for a game that can be competitive(wow arenas is the closest, but it really has dwindled due to the degradation of the pve core gameplay).