Beefcake said:Riahuf22 said: And again with we are going to stay as true as possible to a goal the devs have laid out from us they should take away Cosmetic gear completely and have it be Adventure gear only, that why this balancing act wouldn't even be nesscary, as the whole shared and immersive experience would never be affected by such features and therefore always remain true to the goals the devs have laid out for us.You keep adding YOUR definition of what THEIR goals are.
Instead of trying to Interpret their intent, just argue your intent. Leave it up to them to define their intent.Clearly, you and I will never agree on what matches their stated goals, because they have not stated them clearly. They are meant to be vague, to allow them wiggle room when they announce their final decisions. Eventually, they will clarify their positions, like they have with the whole FTE v MDD stance.
Until then, you do a great disjustice to them, trying to pick and choose, warping the vague statements, imposing your beliefs into their stated positions.
I am not doing anything I have heard them many times say they are wanting to make a shared and immersive world.
And I said if they are going to make that as true as possible that cosmetic gear does hurt the immersion part of of that goal to me and others
So if they want to stay true to those principles they have laid out for us and bring in cosmetic gear than they should give an option for the ones to not see it, to simply have that option
But than you run into this whole it's not shared anymore, so if you want it to be both the answer is between the lines of it all
If the devs go this route or not is completely their decision
But that doesn't mean that if they want it to be shared and immersive the only option that actually fits both perfectly is Adventure gear only, because it can't be immersive breaking and will be shared due to not having an option to change the way it looks.
Beefcake said:Riahuf22 said: And again with we are going to stay as true as possible to a goal the devs have laid out from us they should take away Cosmetic gear completely and have it be Adventure gear only, that why this balancing act wouldn't even be nesscary, as the whole shared and immersive experience would never be affected by such features and therefore always remain true to the goals the devs have laid out for us.You keep adding YOUR definition of what THEIR goals are.
Instead of trying to Interpret their intent, just argue your intent. Leave it up to them to define their intent.Clearly, you and I will never agree on what matches their stated goals, because they have not stated them clearly. They are meant to be vague, to allow them wiggle room when they announce their final decisions. Eventually, they will clarify their positions, like they have with the whole FTE v MDD stance.
Until then, you do a great disjustice to them, trying to pick and choose, warping the vague statements, imposing your beliefs into their stated positions.
I mean, appearance tabs/cosmetics were not part of the original vision and IIRC they are something even Brad wasn't a big fan of. The toggle was offered as a compromise so those who wished to play dress up so they could see themself and others as they desired could do so while still allowing those who wanted the "real" or natural experience to also be able to do so unimpeded.
This is a case of giving and inch and having people demand a mile.
I could list out a comprehensive proposal on how I would want this to work, if it were to be in the game. (I have a lot of concerns)
But instead I'll propose one single idea to address one of my concerns. Curious to see what others think.
Problem: In other games high level players can go back to lower level dungeons or bosses (or previous expansion content/raids) and farm for the appearence gear they desire. I feel like that is not "earning" the gear in the spirit of game. The people that earned this gear "the right way" (or got the lucky drop) no longer get to be unique or feel like they have something special, because everyone is able to easily obtain it.
Solution: When you aquire 'no-trade items' (bind on pickup / soulbound / no drop) items, if the item level is more than X levels lower than your character level it can not be used for appearance gear. If you acquire said item within X levels, you can use it as appearance gear forever. I would propose X = 10, but obviously need more data to have a solid opinon on this.
So.... Do you agree with the Problem? If so, what about my proposed solution?
Edit: For the naysayers that don't want this in the game, I get it. But we could all play pretend (in case we don't get our way) as we discuss some sort of compromised solution (beyond a toggle)
Im personally against any type of trivial loot code. It just sets a bad precedent/takes away from the reality. Maybe these costume items are bad after all =p.
Alyonyah said:Im personally against any type of trivial loot code. It just sets a bad precedent/takes away from the reality. Maybe these costume items are bad after all =p.
There has to be some level of complexity to it. Just outright allowing everything to be appeareance gear for everything else... I think a lot of people would stop logging in to play that game.
Simply limiting it by armor class is not nearly enough imo and would severely turn me off from the game.
The easiest answer is to not allow it. But if we're going to allow it, there needs to be some significant thought put into it imo. After all, attaining gear is one of the major driving factors that keeps many people logging in day after day.
Here is a separate thread for Trivial Loot Code: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1867/trivial-loot-code/view/page/1
oneADseven said:Here is a separate thread for Trivial Loot Code: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1867/trivial-loot-code/view/page/1
To be clear, I don't want a trivial loot code. That's not what I'm suggesting. I don't want to limit players on what they are allowed to kill or loot, just on the apperance gear aspect only.
My suggestion is that items acquired outsided a certain level to be blocked from using as appearance gear. You can still equip the item and wear it... just not replace a max level item with it's appearance.
I think there is a difference.
Honestly, if they allow appearance gear, i don't think they would restrict when or how you decide to obtain it, not saying having something there wouldn't be a bad idea, but putting a artifical boundary of why you cant do something simply becuase you out leveled it might be to much for a ton of people.
Now obviously as I said this won't effect me one way or another, but artifical limitations like this a ton of the community has been against for a very long time and i don't see this being any different.
Riahuf22 said:Honestly, if they allow appearance gear, i don't think they would restrict when or how you decide to obtain it, not saying having something there wouldn't be a bad idea, but putting a artifical boundary of why you cant do something simply becuase you out leveled it might be to much for a ton of people.
Now obviously as I said this won't effect me one way or another, but artifical limitations like this a ton of the community has been against for a very long time and i don't see this being any different.
Fair enough, but what about the problem? Where does the community stand on soloing old raid content to get the appearance gear of end game epics (basicallly not earning them). That's a huge step toward me not wanting to play. I know that example is expanisons away , but still worth thinking about going forward.
Kass said:Riahuf22 said:Honestly, if they allow appearance gear, i don't think they would restrict when or how you decide to obtain it, not saying having something there wouldn't be a bad idea, but putting a artifical boundary of why you cant do something simply becuase you out leveled it might be to much for a ton of people.
Now obviously as I said this won't effect me one way or another, but artifical limitations like this a ton of the community has been against for a very long time and i don't see this being any different.
Fair enough, but what about the problem? Where does the community stand on soloing old raid content to get the appearance gear of end game epics (basicallly not earning them). That's a huge step toward me not wanting to play. I know that example is expanisons away , but still worth thinking about going forward.
Honestly when that time comes, if it were up to me, i would either get rid of their loot tables, or find an immersive way of saying they have been defeated and are no longer in the game.
honestly, their isn't really a good answer, at least not one i can think of right now
As farming gear for appearance style specifically cuases a lot of problems for newer players as well and not just raid content, like with that one dungeont that drops like a full black suit of black leather, it looked pretty good, imagine thats a lvl 20 dungeon but you got a 60 there farming almost your entire dungeon with his buddies and you can't even enjoy the experience simply becuase he trying to famr that whole set constantly to platinum every day
This is something else Appearance gear brings, as 1AD7 was happy to bring it keeps certain items of certain value to keep its value for as long as it was a desirable item but didn't explain what it actually does to the part of the world that drops those particular items of interest
Now don't get me wrong Adventure Gear does this as well, but these areas can be handled as i would be thinking most of these areas of high interests will be mostly high level dungeons which means it can be contested fairly between groups if it comes down to it, unlike those 20's being powerless to a full grp of 60's.
Kass said:To be clear, I don't want a trivial loot code. That's not what I'm suggesting. I don't want to limit players on what they are allowed to kill or loot, just on the apperance gear aspect only.
My suggestion is that items acquired outsided a certain level to be blocked from using as appearance gear. You can still equip the item and wear it... just not replace a max level item with it's appearance.
I think there is a difference.
I understand. When I read your proposed solution it seemed to center around items that are no-trade, soulbound, or BoE. The vast majority of items are supposed to be tradeable in Pantheon so using those kinds of item-tags as a prerequisite for solving an issue doesn't seem viable. Aradune shared his thoughts on TLC at the bottom of page 2 on that thread I linked if you're interested in checking it out.
Riahuf22 said:As farming gear for appearance style specifically cuases a lot of problems for newer players as well and not just raid content, like with that one dungeont that drops like a full black suit of black leather, it looked pretty good, imagine thats a lvl 20 dungeon but you got a 60 there farming almost your entire dungeon with his buddies and you can't even enjoy the experience simply becuase he trying to famr that whole set constantly to platinum every day
This was a point I brought up in a past post as well. Max level characters farming the "cool" lower level sets takes away from the people who earned them "the right way". My solution would avoid this.
oneADseven said:Kass said:To be clear, I don't want a trivial loot code. That's not what I'm suggesting. I don't want to limit players on what they are allowed to kill or loot, just on the apperance gear aspect only.
My suggestion is that items acquired outsided a certain level to be blocked from using as appearance gear. You can still equip the item and wear it... just not replace a max level item with it's appearance.
I think there is a difference.
I understand. When I read your proposed solution it seemed to center around items that are no-trade, soulbound, or BoE. The vast majority of items are supposed to be tradeable in Pantheon so using those kinds of item-tags as a prerequisite for solving an issue doesn't seem viable. Aradune shared his thoughts on TLC at the bottom of page 2 on that thread I linked if you're interested in checking it out.
Ah yes, good point. I fell trap to assuming Pantheon might have bosses only/mostly drop BoP items like WoW. What I was trying to suggest is to allow craftable items to be used no matter what level, which I think would help professions and economy. Random world drops would be fine too, as you can't really "farm" for those.
Yes, thanks for the link. It was relevant either way, and I wasn't aware that was a thing people wanted.
@Kass --- I had a post on the bottom of page 22 that ended up getting buried pretty quickly but I am hoping that you would be willing to indulge me. I would very much appreciate an opportunity to advance the discussion and feel that we can achieve a reasonable compromise by leveraging the perception feature. Please let me know what you think.
oneADseven said:Kass said:@disposalist
I haven't kept up with the thread lately, but I saw an idea that there be some sort of idicator (albeit sublte) on the nameplate, character, or character pane, to denote that a player is using appearance gear.
Just wondering thoughts from your side of the house on that one.
TBH, the more I've thought about it, I'm more on the side for having it. My main concerns were PvP, but now that I realize that lack of PvP interest VR seems to be putting into the game, I might just play PvE. It's a little disheartening because world PvP has always been an aspect of MMOs I thoroughly enjoy.
Either way, I still would like to see it take significant effort to actually acquire/use appearance gear (ie through crafting, fees, material turn-in).
I suggested something to that effect a few pages back. I had another suggestion early on in the thread that didn't get much traction but the basic idea was to tie the perception system into all of this. Let's assume that players have a subtle indicator as discussed. (It's also worth considering that this indicator is potentially connected to the passive "insight" skill.) This informs folks that the player they are looking at is utilizing at least 1 appearance slot. From there, they have a few options for trying to learn more about the character in question. They can /inspect the character that is using the appearance slots and see what they have equipped (in both standard and appearance slots). If that player has /inspect disabled then they can message them and request for them to turn it back on. It really just depends on the situation. The other option would be using the "investigate" skill that is tied to the perception system. If your investigate skill is high enough to work on the player you are targeting, it would allow you to temporarily "see through" their appearance slots and potentially uncover other sorts of information as well. I feel this would be a pretty good compromise that actually makes sense in the context of a living/breathing world and would add some value to one of the flagship features of this game. What do you think?
oneADseven said:Kass said:To be clear, I don't want a trivial loot code. That's not what I'm suggesting. I don't want to limit players on what they are allowed to kill or loot, just on the apperance gear aspect only.
My suggestion is that items acquired outsided a certain level to be blocked from using as appearance gear. You can still equip the item and wear it... just not replace a max level item with it's appearance.
I think there is a difference.
I understand. When I read your proposed solution it seemed to center around items that are no-trade, soulbound, or BoE. The vast majority of items are supposed to be tradeable in Pantheon so using those kinds of item-tags as a prerequisite for solving an issue doesn't seem viable. Aradune shared his thoughts on TLC at the bottom of page 2 on that thread I linked if you're interested in checking it out.
Thanks for pointing this out to me. As bill and ted would say "EXCELLENT!"
oneADseven said:@Kass --- I had a post on the bottom of page 22 that ended up getting buried pretty quickly but I am hoping that you would be willing to indulge me. I would very much appreciate an opportunity to advance the discussion and feel that we can achieve a reasonable compromise by leveraging the perception feature. Please let me know what you think.
Yes, I'm gonna be honest, I read the first 15 pages at one point, but I've began to skip some posts as I came back to 4 walls of text the other day, lol. I missed your response, I apologize.
That being said, it's an interesting idea. It definately is cool to tie in the new perception system into another feature like this.
What I'm not sure on is what it solves. It's similar to the toggle argument in my mind. The people that want others to see them the way they want to be seen (using appearance gear) are not getting want they want. Is there is a way for them to up their 'resistance to perception'? On the other hand, the people that want to see people for what they are, mostly get what they want. I would imagine at some point everyone would be 'max perception' and therefore see all "true" gear. I guess if I think about the main concerns of mine that I outlined in my orginal post, and most other people's CONS to appearance gear, it doesn't address any of them. And for the PROS, again it doesn't give people true choice (as people can "see through" their appearance gear). Way to think outside the box though. Perhaps I'm missing something with this, idk.
On a side note: Why does the game let people block /inspect? Why is this important? I'd argue to not allow people to block /inspect.
Kass said:oneADseven said:@Kass --- I had a post on the bottom of page 22 that ended up getting buried pretty quickly but I am hoping that you would be willing to indulge me. I would very much appreciate an opportunity to advance the discussion and feel that we can achieve a reasonable compromise by leveraging the perception feature. Please let me know what you think.
Yes, I'm gonna be honest, I read the first 15 pages at one point, but I've began to skip some posts as I came back to 4 walls of text the other day, lol. I missed your response, I apologize.
That being said, it's an interesting idea. It definately is cool to tie in the new perception system into another feature like this.
What I'm not sure on is what it solves. It's similar to the toggle argument in my mind. The people that want others to see them the way they want to be seen (using appearance gear) are not getting want they want. Is there is a way for them to up their 'resistance to perception'? On the other hand, the people that want to see people for what they are, mostly get what they want. I would imagine at some point everyone would be 'max perception' and therefore see all "true" gear. I guess if I think about the main concerns of mine that I outlined in my orginal post, and most other people's CONS to appearance gear, it doesn't address any of them. And for the PROS, again it doesn't give people true choice (as people can "see through" their appearance gear). Way to think outside the box though. Perhaps I'm missing something with this, idk.
On a side note: Why does the game let people block /inspect? Why is this important? I'd argue to not allow people to block /inspect.
Exactly. What does it solve? Lol
Kass said:oneADseven said:@Kass --- I had a post on the bottom of page 22 that ended up getting buried pretty quickly but I am hoping that you would be willing to indulge me. I would very much appreciate an opportunity to advance the discussion and feel that we can achieve a reasonable compromise by leveraging the perception feature. Please let me know what you think.
What I'm not sure on is what it solves. It's similar to the toggle argument in my mind. The people that want others to see them the way they want to be seen (using appearance gear) are not getting want they want. Is there is a way for them to up their 'resistance to perception'? On the other hand, the people that want to see people for what they are, mostly get what they want. I would imagine at some point everyone would be 'max perception' and therefore see all "true" gear. I guess if I think about the main concerns of mine that I outlined in my orginal post, and most other people's CONS to appearance gear, it doesn't address any of them. And for the PROS, again it doesn't give people true choice (as people can "see through" their appearance gear). Way to think outside the box though. Perhaps I'm missing something with this, idk.
I wanted to propose a compromise for how the "toggle" could be implemented. Rather than giving all players a universal on/off switch that can permanently disable the appearance slots of others, we could use the essence of the perception feature to offer similar (but less effective, and less immersion breaking) functionality. Here is a description of the perception feature:
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.
Here is some additional information revealed in the 11/2018 Newsletter:
Mechanics: The Skills
Perception is the measure of a character’s ability to notice detail and discern deeper meaning within the various people, places and things they encounter on their journey. To do so, Perception utilizes a combination of two skills: Insight and Investigate.
Insight
Perception’s passive skill. Insight represents the innate chance (in addition to required flagging in certain cases) that a character will notice something in the environment.
Investigate
Perception’s active skill. Investigate can be used at will to attempt to notice something. Using Investigate will give you a slightly higher chance to notice something in the case your Insight skill is not high enough to notice on its own. However, when Insight does catch something, players will use Investigate to dig further into the clues they have been given.
I'm going to make a few assumptions here to demonstrate how this could work, but please keep in mind that the numbers are just hypothetical and used for illustration purposes only. Let's assume the following:
Level cap is 50.
Skill cap for insight and investigate is 250.
There is a 5:1 ratio between the perception-based skill level of a character and their ability to leverage that skill on another player.
Example: A player with 100 insight skill would be able to detect the indicator that we discussed previously for characters that are in-range and level 20 or below. (A subtle indicator on their nameplate, or color change in their name.) If the indicator is observed, players would know that the targeted player would be utilizing at least 1 appearance slot. Knowing this information, they could then choose to utilize their investigate ability on that same player. As long as their investigate skill is high enough, it would allow them to temporarily (15-20 seconds?) see through any appearance gear being worn for that player only.
I consider this a fair compromise for several reasons. The investigate skill is going to have a cooldown which means that it won't be used flippantly. If someone feels absolutely compelled to see the true graphics of the gear I'm wearing, this would give them an outlet to do so as long as their skill level is high enough. In the context of a living breathing world, where perception is considered a flagship feature that is regularly used to "discover the meaning, history, or secrets of a person" -- I think it's perfectly reasonable that another player would be able to use an "investigate" skill that allows them to "perceive" my true gear. This interaction could also provide flavor text such as "Player X investigates you." This makes the interaction much more believable and personal without completely eliminating the agency of the player who wants to control their appearance. The flavor text would allow players to truly understand how their character is perceived in the world which is really important for immersion and capturing the shared experience that we all covet.
@Kass
Per your suggestion on not being able to loot gear after x level. I had a previous post about a challenge rating idea. Basically the mob checks all the characters on the agro table when it dies to see what loot table it hit. If everyone is at or bellow its challenge rating then it will draw from a higher quality loot table, this could even just be a better visual image of the mechanical item available to all levels.
Mentoring will be able to reduce a characters challenge rating while under the effect of mentoring. This will enable characters who have outleveld a specific challenge to reduce their strength in order to face the challenge at the intended level for greater reward.
Trasak said:@Kass
Per your suggestion on not being able to loot gear after x level. I had a previous post about a challenge rating idea. Basically the mob checks all the characters on the agro table when it dies to see what loot table it hit. If everyone is at or bellow its challenge rating then it will draw from a higher quality loot table, this could even just be a better visual image of the mechanical item available to all levels.
Mentoring will be able to reduce a characters challenge rating while under the effect of mentoring. This will enable characters who have outleveld a specific challenge to reduce their strength in order to face the challenge at the intended level for greater reward.
Oh, you took it to the next level. I like the addition of preventing high levels from running alts / lowbies through bosses to farm gear (for appearance) by checking the overall level of players who interacted in the fight. What I'm not sure I like is changing the loot table, and most definately changing the appearance per loot table - I think that's way too much work (for the devs) for little payoff.
I have no problems with high levels running people through dungeons... that's part of the game imo. Helping each other out, socializing, contracting runs, etc. My main concern in the appearance gear. I would like to combine your group check level with my can't use gear for appearnce outside of X levels. I personally think its a nice and simple solution to the problem of farming low level appearance gear, thus upholding the items itegrity and protecting the people who earned it the "right way".
oneADseven said:Let's assume the following:
Level cap is 50.
Skill cap for insight and investigate is 250.
There is a 5:1 ratio between the perception-based skill level of a character and their ability to leverage that skill on another player.
Example: A player with 100 insight skill would be able to detect the indicator that we discussed previously for characters that are in-range and level 20 or below. (A subtle indicator on their nameplate, or color change in their name.) If the indicator is observed, players would know that the targeted player would be utilizing at least 1 appearance slot. Knowing this information, they could then choose to utilize their investigate ability on that same player. As long as their investigate skill is high enough, it would allow them to temporarily (15-20 seconds?) see through any appearance gear being worn for that player only.I consider this a fair compromise for several reasons. The investigate skill is going to have a cooldown which means that it won't be used flippantly. If someone feels absolutely compelled to see the true graphics of the gear I'm wearing, this would give them an outlet to do so as long as their skill level is high enough. In the context of a living breathing world, where perception is considered a flagship feature that is regularly used to "discover the meaning, history, or secrets of a person" -- I think it's perfectly reasonable that another player would be able to use an "investigate" skill that allows them to "perceive" my true gear. This interaction could also provide flavor text such as "Player X investigates you." This makes the interaction much more believable and personal without completely eliminating the agency of the player who wants to control their appearance. The flavor text would allow players to truly understand how their character is perceived in the world which is really important for immersion and capturing the shared experience that we all covet.
I definately appriciate the inginuity and the effort you put into this idea. In the end I still see it as a glorified toggle and thus alienating the Pro appearance gear crowd.
@disposalist You have been a strong advocate for the "Toggle is not a compromise" posistion, so what's your thoughts on the perception based inspection? More perspectives are better.
Well the thing is appearance gear should never be set at a high priority than adventure gear, as I've said before Cosmetic Gear can be Immersive breaking to many and many have stated such statements, as Adventure Adventure gear Can't be Immersive breaking.
As I have stated many times, so in order to prevent such immersive breaking features to exsist in the game the people should have a choice if they want to see it or not, the ones that do can live is a world that fulfills that vision, the ones that don't, won't have too.
People are looking at the people who want the toggle as if we are trying to break your immersion, which we can't even do, even though @Beefcake tried by using words incorrectly.
But if we can't midigate it's affect it WILL be ruining ours, that's the true difference
And also as @beefcake stated people who don't want to have the toggle available don't care if our immersion is ruined, this has to be a fact, or this forum wouldn't of been 24 pages long.
We are not HURTING you, affecting the way you are seeing the world, we are not stopping you from changing the way to appear.
But you are trying to hurt our way we see the world, and not allowing us a way to midigate its affect.
So if we were playing a game of good guy/bad guy who sounds worst?
The ones that are allowing you change the way you can appear, can view the world as you see fit, the ones that want to travel around the world and not have your immersion broken
OR the ones that want to have your immersion broken by not midigating an optional feature and saying their shouldn't be anything you can do about simply becuase it makes them happy.
I'll have you decide.
Riahuf22 said:People are looking at the people who want the toggle as if we are trying to break your immersion, which we can't even do, even though @Beefcake tried by using words incorrectly.
Riahuf, here me out on this please, as you especially keep harping on the "obvious toggle perfect solution, duh!, how dumb are you not to see this toggle is best!" argument. (no disrespect intended)
I'm on the side of a toggle being pointless, but my opinon on this is dependent on one thing:
How many of the PRO appearance gear side insist that the way OTHERS SEE THEM is what matters, moreso than how they see themselves and others. We may not like it, but if 'A LOT' of people feel that way, we need to consider their opinion is as important as ours.
If the vast majority of the PRO appearance crown only care about how OTHERS SEE THEM, then the 'Toggle' is absolutely 100% pointless and in no way shape or form a compromise. If that crowd is rather small and the vast majority are okay with just seeing the world they want to see, then a 'Toggle' makes a lot of sense and is a great solution.
The problem is, the vocal majority in this thread points to the former, not the latter. Maybe it ill represents the actual playerbase, idk.