Kass said:Riahuf22 said:People are looking at the people who want the toggle as if we are trying to break your immersion, which we can't even do, even though @Beefcake tried by using words incorrectly.
Riahuf, here me out on this please, as you especially keep harping on the "obvious toggle perfect solution, duh!, how dumb are you not to see this toggle is best!" argument. (no disrespect intended)
I'm on the side of a toggle being pointless, but my opinon on this is dependent on one thing:
How many of the PRO appearance gear side insist that the way OTHERS SEE THEM is what matters, moreso than how they see themselves and others. We may not like it, but if 'A LOT' of people feel that way, we need to consider their opinion is as important as ours.
If the vast majority of the PRO appearance crown only care about how OTHERS SEE THEM, then the 'Toggle' is absolutely 100% pointless and in no way shape or form a compromise. If that crowd is rather small and the vast majority are okay with just seeing the world they want to see, then a 'Toggle' makes a lot of sense and is a great solution.
The problem is, the vocal majority in this thread points to the former, not the latter. Maybe it ill represents the actual playerbase, idk.
Here is a list for you:
They can share their appearances with like minded individuals, Thats a win
They can see the wordl as they see fit, Thats a win
They can know when playing their game their immersion won't be broken, that's a win
The only "win" they aren't getting is forcing someone to see them in a way they don't want to, which has nothing to do with immersion at all btw.
Nor should they be able to decide on how I see them when it comes to deciding appearance v adventure gear.
If they want me to see them wearing a certain piece of gear they could simply put it on.
If they are wearing a Breastplate of Almighty, they should look they are wearing breadplate of almighty to the ones that decide to see that, the priority of trying to have Appearance gear have a priority higher than Adventure gear should never be in question, or even suggested, as again appearance gear is optional for a reason, it can be immersive breaking, and should be looked at it that way as well.
So when it comes down to it if i don't want to see it their should be nothing anyone can do about it, and not the other way around.
As one of this games highest goal is to be immersive and seeing appearances gear is not immersive to me i would hate to feel like my experience is cheapened and torn by a feature that does nothing to actual gameplay.
Plus if you mean vast majority being like lets say 75% and so therefore is pointless so the 25% have to simply just deal with it is honestly a crap argument just to be honest, you could simply have that 25% be happy and not see it and have the 75% be happy they see everyone the way they want to and 75% see them the way they want to, the biggest problem they want 100% when more than likely they wont care but maybe what 5% actually care about the way they look.
Riahuf22 said:maybe what 5% actually care about the way they look.
I know I'm picking out one line, but c'mon, where we pulling these numbers from? Maybe it's 5%. Maybe it's 30%. Not to mention, our forum hardly counts for the thousands of players not on this forum that will be playing this game... that we NEED to play this game (probablly not as hardcore as people here on old schoolness).
I have no problem with your argument that appearance gear is bad and it shouldn't be in the game, and I generally agree with you and that's what I would vote for. My only point is, I want you to accept that fact that 'Toggle' is not a compromise to the people who want to be seen. I don't care if it's .01%... to that .01% it's not a compromise. I feel that if you cannot accept something like this, then people will continue to dismiss your opinion.
I'm genuinely trying to help you out on this, but take this post however you need to... But in my experience, if you aren't willing to actually listen, you're never going to make any progress... in these forums or in life.
Sorry if this seemed condescending, as that was not my intent, but hard to convey in a text post.
For Appearance:
Disposalists
1AD7
Nephele
Plump
Darch
Nathos
Thorndeep
Beefcake
MauvaisOeil
Trasak
Liav
mebalzz
Stonetothebone85
Kass
DakmorKavu
Against Appearance:
Sabot
Qulash
Grymmlocke
Damion
HemlockReaper
Therek
BamBam
Sarim
Syrif
Dorotea
Doford
Vjek(toggle)
Shea
Iksar(Toggle)
Vandraad(Toggle I Believe is what he was getting at.)
Kargen(Toggle)
AbsoluteTerror
KatoKhan(Toggle)
Talint
jpedrote
Kalok
Riahuf22(Toggle)
Arazon(Toggle)
Watemper
Zorkon
Grime
Sunglare(Toggle)
Aethor
Papabear
Seno
Poetbones(Toggle)
Chalkstix
Flapp
Feyshtey
Grimvalor
In the Middle:
Hegenox(toggle, but if had to choose against appearance)
Manouk
Xxar (I think?)
Alyonyah
Walpurgis(doesn;t care if it's in game or not an in appearance gear and such but definate no to toggle)
Kreed99
Soozo
Jabir
Akilea (Wants Appearance items but accepts toggle, I think?)
Baldur (Wants appearance items but accepts toggle.)
Moloka(seemed to more on the against side than for but seemed like he was indifferent as well.)
Shadowbound (Against WoW type Transmoging, but seems to have little idea of what transmoging is so I'm going to stick him here to be safe.)
Stellarmind:
Stellarmind
If i misrepresented anyone i am sorry but i made this list to prove a point that maybe some of the "pro" appearance community might be more vocal than other but they have clearly been outnumbered.
And yes 5% if you seriously think that if a server can hold 2000 people and they truly care what 100 people or more think about them, than hey man good for you i guess but than you'll always find yourself disappionting someone.
Btw that 15/35/12/1, and "pro" adventure gear has more people than the other 3 groups combined.
Kass said:Riahuf22 said:maybe what 5% actually care about the way they look.
I know I'm picking out one line, but c'mon, where we pulling these numbers from? Maybe it's 5%. Maybe it's 30%. Not to mention, our forum hardly counts for the thousands of players not on this forum that will be playing this game... that we NEED to play this game (probablly not as hardcore as people here on old schoolness).
I have no problem with your argument that appearance gear is bad and it shouldn't be in the game, and I generally agree with you and that's what I would vote for. My only point is, I want you to accept that fact that 'Toggle' is not a compromise to the people who want to be seen. I don't care if it's .01%... to that .01% it's not a compromise. I feel that if you cannot accept something like this, then people will continue to dismiss your opinion.
I'm genuinely trying to help you out on this, but take this post however you need to... But in my experience, if you aren't willing to actually listen, you're never going to make any progress... in these forums or in life.
Sorry if this seemed condescending, as that was not my intent, but hard to convey in a text post.
Lol i do understand them, i simply just strongly disagree with them and I'm not go to bend to their way of thinking while going against something i believe, and hponestly with your own line of thinking if lets say 50% just to make it even and that they want to have people see them the way they want, and 50% don't want to see it and that actually came to a line of understanding the compromise would be the toggle so 50% can see themselves and others the way they want them too and 50% would see the wordl as it actually is, that is the compromise, and the honest fact they don't see it that way is their problem and not mine.
Riahuf22 said:Kass said:Riahuf22 said:maybe what 5% actually care about the way they look.
I know I'm picking out one line, but c'mon, where we pulling these numbers from? Maybe it's 5%. Maybe it's 30%. Not to mention, our forum hardly counts for the thousands of players not on this forum that will be playing this game... that we NEED to play this game (probablly not as hardcore as people here on old schoolness).
I have no problem with your argument that appearance gear is bad and it shouldn't be in the game, and I generally agree with you and that's what I would vote for. My only point is, I want you to accept that fact that 'Toggle' is not a compromise to the people who want to be seen. I don't care if it's .01%... to that .01% it's not a compromise. I feel that if you cannot accept something like this, then people will continue to dismiss your opinion.
I'm genuinely trying to help you out on this, but take this post however you need to... But in my experience, if you aren't willing to actually listen, you're never going to make any progress... in these forums or in life.
Sorry if this seemed condescending, as that was not my intent, but hard to convey in a text post.
Lol i do understand them, i simply just strongly disagree with them and I'm not go to bend to their way of thinking while going against something i believe, and hponestly with your own line of thinking if lets say 50% just to make it even and that they want to have people see them the way they want, and 50% don't want to see it and that actually came to a line of understanding the compromise would be the toggle so 50% can see themselves and others the way they want them too and 50% would see the wordl as it actually is, that is the compromise, and the honest fact they don't see it that way is their problem and not mine.
Agree 100%
PS: In your summary i'm in the middle - yes, but to clarify: that means i'm for toggle option - if I had to choose one over the other I'd be against appearance gear. I want to see what stat gear people are wearing.
This is really interesting. I mean again, what breaks my immersion more than anything is female "armor" that doesn't look like armor, and it doesn't seem like this game will go that way so I'd lean more on the side of what the armor really looks like... at least on my screen. If people want a toggle, that doesn't bother me as long as I'm looking at a world I can get lost in.
I am all for appearance gear. I don't quite understand the attitude people have towards the life cycle in game. Acting like people of the fantasy time wouldn't progress their own designs, memes, and draw dicks on walls. It's historical truth.
Played old school EQ for years, when I moved to Agnarr, I rather enjoyed customizing equipment and armor. Now a days, not having it just seems like watching people stuck in their own ways stay that way until they drive off a cliff. "HOW did you not see the cliff?" "I saw it, but that's where the road went..."
Nothing is immersive in these games. Outside of a few select communities on RP servers, if a game takes off, no one has any respect for your immersion. So, immersion as an argument doesn't really exist in my eyes.
Either way, I don't care. If you put in appearance items, I will most definitely use them and customize frequently. Looking good without being forced into ugly gear because "stats" or wearing that shiny glow sword because "epic" would be great. If you don't, well, at least the peanut gallery will be happy.
Rogue said:I am all for appearance gear. I don't quite understand the attitude people have towards the life cycle in game. Acting like people of the fantasy time wouldn't progress their own designs, memes, and draw dicks on walls. It's historical truth.
Played old school EQ for years, when I moved to Agnarr, I rather enjoyed customizing equipment and armor. Now a days, not having it just seems like watching people stuck in their own ways stay that way until they drive off a cliff. "HOW did you not see the cliff?" "I saw it, but that's where the road went..."
Nothing is immersive in these games. Outside of a few select communities on RP servers, if a game takes off, no one has any respect for your immersion. So, immersion as an argument doesn't really exist in my eyes.
Either way, I don't care. If you put in appearance items, I will most definitely use them and customize frequently. Looking good without being forced into ugly gear because "stats" or wearing that shiny glow sword because "epic" would be great. If you don't, well, at least the peanut gallery will be happy.
You do realize in EQ you can turn off cosmetics right? plus if your trying to say immersion can't be achieved in a game than try to explain that to the devs, when they are the ones saying it is a goal.
Riahuf22 said:
Btw that 15/35/12/1, and "pro" adventure gear has more people than the other 3 groups combined.
I'll take your word on the numbers, but even then the 24% (that's counting all the "middle people" as against as well - upwards of 35%+ if we grab some of them) your data shows vs 5% is quite a bit different. Pulling numbers out our asses and passing them off to appear as facts is disingenuous and only hurts the conversation.
Many of the most dedicated/diehard fans are on these forums, as many of us have backed that up with our money, but we can't assume that our numbers will replicate over the mass population on any given issue. In many cases, I would suggest that the % of people that want X will sway toward the more casual/easymode/progressive option outside these forums. I would guess that 24% would rise greatly outside these forums.
By no means am I saying cater to the casual crowd (make everything convenient crowd) - that goes directly against this games vision. But there are quality of life and modern innovations to MMOs that should be welcomed and still fit within Pantheon's game tenets.
Perhaps a version of appearance gear makes sense and a compromise can be made that does not alieniate a good chunk of the players. Perhaps the juice is not worth the squeeze or the team decides that it is is not in line with the Pantheon vision. In the meantime, we can continue to discuss what the "best" compromise might look like. We already understand 'no appearance gear whatsoever' is a viable option, so there is no point to continue to beat our heads against that one.
p.s. since you've admitted you did understand (which I suspected you did), then the only conclusion I can come up with is that you are just trolling when you keep slapping the 'toggle' in the 'toggle is not a compromise' people's faces... It only discredits the very good points and arguments you make throughout, as well as in future posts, in my humble opinion --- It's obviously fine to disagree, but to tell people the way they FEEL is wrong, c'mon
Kass said:Riahuf22 said:
Btw that 15/35/12/1, and "pro" adventure gear has more people than the other 3 groups combined.
I'll take your word on the numbers, but even then the 24% (that's counting all the "middle people" as against as well - upwards of 35%+ if we grab some of them) your data shows vs 5% is quite a bit different. Pulling numbers out our asses and passing them off to appear as facts is disingenuous and only hurts the conversation.
Many of the most dedicated/diehard fans are on these forums, as many of us have backed that up with our money, but we can't assume that our numbers will replicate over the mass population on any given issue. In many cases, I would suggest that the % of people that want X will sway toward the more casual/easymode/progressive option outside these forums. I would guess that 24% would rise greatly outside these forums.
By no means am I saying cater to the casual crowd (make everything convenient crowd) - that goes directly against this games vision. But there are quality of life and modern innovations to MMOs that should be welcomed and still fit within Pantheon's game tenets.
Perhaps a version of appearance gear makes sense and a compromise can be made that does not alieniate a good chunk of the players. Perhaps the juice is not worth the squeeze or the team decides that it is is not in line with the Pantheon vision. In the meantime, we can continue to discuss what the "best" compromise might look like. We already understand 'no appearance gear whatsoever' is a viable option, so there is no point to continue to beat our heads against that one.
p.s. since you've admitted you did understand (which I suspected you did), then the only conclusion I can come up with is that you are just trolling when you keep slapping the 'toggle' in the 'toggle is not a compromise' people's faces... It only discredits the very good points and arguments you make throughout, as well as in future posts, in my humble opinion --- It's obviously fine to disagree, but to tell people the way they FEEL is wrong, c'mon
Clearly you didn't understand what I meant when I said 5%, that was towards people that they actually care about their opinion of their gear, and really wanted them to like it, like old/new friends they have acquired while playing the game, guildies, roleplayers and such and probably once you tiw it all together in the grand total of who is actually on the server, it probably is close to 5%, as I'm sure if diaposlists is on a different server than someone else and he finds out he/she doesn't like her outfit, he/she wouldn't really care since they don't share the same server and he/she doesn't know that person, even if they are both "pro" appearance.
And I do agree with you on one thing, I do believe people in % to like appearance more, but I think you'll also find many will also not care with there is a toggle, the only reason why I think we haven't seen many on these forums is because they truly don't care which direction the devs go in regards to this discussion, and so therefore simply have just decided to ignore this topic altogether.
So you think that I'm trolling when I keep suggesting toggle?
Think about what you are saying you are suggesting that simply because someone wants something they should simply have it, you realize with that line of thinking all poor people will have houses and all rich people would be poor, until the next day.
And again it is a compromise:
Appearance gear went 100% their way and 0% my way, but this is essentially what you want it to be all the way through simply because someone else does too.
As for the toggle make it 100% my way, and 25 to 75% their way
and that makes appearance people who want to see a Pearce gear 100% happy as they see the world they want to, and like minded individuals see it to
And adventure people are 100% happy as they see it they way you want too.
Also you are talking about feelings, I'm here to discuss a topic and what I believe is correct or to find a compromise.
And if you opinion of a compromise is to give up something and get nothing everytime that isn't a compromise that's called being Santa Claus, and I'm not him.as clearly you want me to have no toggle so they can force their appearance gear on me and me not have a way to midigation it's affect on me.
Let's put this is real life terms a poor man ask for a dollar so I give him a dollar simply because he wants it, now he wants 100 dollars for the same reason, now he wants my wallet, now he wants my car keys, and he wants my car, now he wants my house keys, now he wants my house, see how if I use your way of thinking the only person that gets screwed is me and people who are like minded, that's why I'll never do it.
Plus you are also looking at it like I'm the only one to do it, how about we do this I accept they can have appearance gear, this is me giving a little bit, if they decide I can have toggle so they can midigation it's affect on people who don't want to see it, them giving a little bit. But of course you only want me to give something up, as you have been quite clear on that.
Riahuf22 said:So you think that I'm trolling when I keep suggesting toggle?
The trolling comes when you keep suggesting the toggle is a perfect compromise when you know it is not. The trolling comes when you imply or even outright state that people who want to define their look are being selfish by not accepting your opinion is somehow 'the truth'.
Riahuf22 said:Think about what you are saying you are suggesting that simply because someone wants something they should simply have it, you realize with that line of thinking all poor people will have houses and all rich people would be poor, until the next day.
Lol. Fantastic hyperbolic strawman.
Riahuf22 said:And again it is a compromise:
It is literally not, by definition, as has been pointing out many times, but here we go again with you insisting it is. For reference: A compromise involves *mutual* concession.
Riahuf22 said:Appearance gear went 100% their way and 0% my way, but this is essentially what you want it to be all the way through simply because someone else does too.
Nope. Appearance gear, even with no toggle, goes somewhere between 99% and 1% against you. It depends how many people use appearance gear and is complicated by the /inspect function which sees through it anyway. Though some might suggest that any use of appearance gear means you cannot tell always at a glance, so it is 100% against them.
Riahuf22 said:As for the toggle make it 100% my way, and 25 to 75% their way
Nope. For those wanting to define how others see them a toggle is somewhere between 99% and 1% against them. It depends how many people use the toggle. Though some might suggest that any use of a toggle means you have no control over your look at all, so the toggle makes it 100% against them.
Riahuf22 said:and that makes appearance people who want to see a Pearce gear 100% happy as they see the world they want to, and like minded individuals see it to
I don't know for sure, but I contest the like-minded people thing is nowhere near as relevant as you make out. People who want to look good don't only do it for others that want to look good. When you want to look good, there is not subset of people you want that to apply to. You want to look good to everyone. Some might be happy with that. A lot will not.
Riahuf22 said:And adventure people are 100% happy as they see it they way you want too.
Some of those wanting to see adventure gear will still be unhappy with the toggle because it means you get the bizarre situation of players seeing different things to each other when they look at the same things. A lot of people, pro adventure gear or pro appearance gear, do not want the immersion damage and general confusion and weirdness that would cause.
Riahuf22 said:Also you are talking about feelings, I'm here to discuss a topic and what I believe is correct or to find a compromise.
The topic is all about how people feel about appearance slots. The argument we're experiencing is based in differing feelings. You do not feel the same way, so although you may well understand you continue to assert that you are 'right' and others are 'wrong' because your feelings are more important.
Riahuf22 said:And if you opinion of a compromise is to give up something and get nothing everytime that isn't a compromise that's called being Santa Claus, and I'm not him.as clearly you want me to have no toggle so they can force their appearance gear on me and me not have a way to midigation it's affect on me.
Let's put this is real life terms a poor man ask for a dollar do I give him a dollar simply because he wants it, now he wants 100 dollars for the same reason, now he wants my wallet, now he wants my car keys, and he wants my car, now he wants my house keys, now he wants my house, see how if I use your way of thinking the only person that gets screwed is me and people who are like minded, that's why I'll never do it.
More weird hyperbolic strawman stuff.
Riahuf22 said:Plus you are also looking at it like I'm the only one to do it, how about we do this I accept they can have appearance gear, this is me giving a little bit, if they decide I can have toggle so they can midigation it's affect on people who don't want to see it, them giving a little bit. But of course you only want me to give something up, as you have been quite clear on that.
"I accept they can have appearance gear, this is me giving a little bit" Lol. You *allowing* appearance slots to exist as a concept is "giving a little bit"? So generous. And a toggle that makes appearance slots system completely disappear for you is just others "giving a little bit"? Marvellous.
"But of course you only want me to give something up, as you have been quite clear on that." Delicious irony. You want a toggle that gives you *exactly* what you want and damages or destroys the system for others, but *they* are being selfish to suggest that might not be perfect? Awesome.
TL;DR: The toggle is not a compromise. By definition. Repeating that suggestion over and over is pointless. Implying other people are selfish and/or wrong for criticising it is worse than pointless.
Riahuf22 said:...
Against Appearance:
...
Dorotea
...
dorotea said:I would be happy with no appearance options at all. Let's have some realism here. If I am wearing plate mail why in the name of all Gods should someone look at me and see me in a bikini? Or even cloth armor.
The only reason to allow us to be seen wearing things we actually are *not* wearing is to generate sales for an in-game store. No store - no need for this nonsense.
An option to have the player see the character in "pretend" gear isn't nearly as bad as one that inflicts this on other players though I don't see the need to waste resources on this.
If VR is going the "pretend gear" route at an irreducable minimum give us an option to disable it.
Dorotea's "against appearance" slots opinion was based in a cash shop system somehow allowing others to see her in a bikini.
We know it will not actually be like that - the devs have said so. From everything we have read it will be no more than being able to use previously earned normal gear to override currently worn normal gear. No cash shop. No different types hiding. No weird outfits.
I'd love to hear Dorotea's view on that basis.
Either way, lumping her in as "against appearance" on that basis isn't exactly fair. Can I be bothered to check the others being counted as "against appearance"?... EDIT: Checking, more than a few othes conflate the issue with cash shop and bizarre outfits and we know that isn't really relevant.
@disposalists the other reason why you and people like minded to you is because you simply don't want to compromise at all you want 100% to 0%,
At least with my idea it is 100%, to something around 25% to 75%,
You visually on your computer screen will have nothing taken away from you
As for my visually immersion will be broken everytime I would log on
And from a gaming prespective, that when all it has at its core is how it "visually looks," it should take priority over someone's feelings.
And since your immersion from a visual prespective will never be broken ever, and mine would be broken 100% of the time, that should be strongly considered.
Especially since adventure gear should have a priority over appearance gear from the beginning.
And if dorotea wants it changed he/she can either message me or write in this thread and I'll change it and not by you simply quoting him/her and trying to change someone's opinion without actually hearing it.
And as I've also mentioned if the devs simply take away appearance gear we will both get what we want from an immersive prespective, as no one could change the way we appear and no need for a toggle
But of course you don't really care about being immersive for as long you get your appearance gear.
Riahuf22 said:@disposalists the other reason why you and people like minded to you is because you simply don't want to compromise at all you want 100% to 0%,
Misrepresenting my opinion when people can clearly read otherwise is silly.
I have said several times that to have no toggle is clearly not a good compromise. That doesn't mean to have a toggle is a good compromise. Neither are satisfactory.
I have made several suggestions and tried to turn this back into a discussion. You're the one that keeps on saying your way is somehow objectively 'best' when it's 100% in your favour. As I keep pointing out, something that gives one side 100% and the other less is not a compromise, by defintion.
I do want a compromise. The best one I see is to have no toggle on RP servers, but I know that will not be good for some, so I'm happy to discuss further.
Riahuf22 said:...And from a gaming prespective, that when all it has at its core is how it "visually looks," it should take priority over someone's feelings....
This is all about how we feel. Don't you get it? You 'feel' that you need to know what other peoples' current gear is at a glance. I 'feel' that if people can just ignore appearance slots, it makes the system pointless. Those are our opinions based on our feelings.
Some of us, though, appreciate our feelings aren't more important than others' and realise that a good compromise is yet to be arrived at, so more discussion might be valuable. Others just think our own feelings are most important and that a suggestion that satisfies us is best.
Riahuf22 said:But of course you don't really care about being immersive for as long you get your appearance gear.
Ironic. In a fantasy role-playing game, immersion is best served by seeing what people's gear really is at a glance? Having a toggle that means players look at the same thing and see different things is immersive?
But you carry on saying you are 'right' and your answer is 'best'. Carry on suggesting others like me are being selfish and unreasonable.
I am not even super 'pro' appearance gear, as you keep saying. I've said as much before.
What I am suggesting is no one (including me) has a good answer yet and we should keep discussing.
Yes, having no toggle isn't great. Now all you have to do is see that having a toggle also isn't great and we can move forward instead of arguing.
You realize since it's a visual feature it's either you do see it or you don't right? Their isnt some middle ground that can be explored and somehow make both sides completely happy, at this point your over complicating it to where a compromise will never be reached, maybe this is something your trying to achieve, I have no idea. But If somehow you think their is an option where it supports 100% appearance and 100% adventure simply doesn't exsist when you mix them together, but I can say having it 100% for one party and 25 to 75% on the other party is a hell of a lot better than 100% one way and saying F off to the other party.
Now I'd their is something else other than some weird perceptive system mechanic someone else brought up that essentially is the toggle to come up with, than maybe but let's be honest if their was truly a better choice don't you think over the mast 10 years of it coming out of appearance gear their might of been found by now?
Riahuf22 said:Now I'd their is something else other than some weird perceptive system mechanic someone else brought up that essentially is the toggle to come up with, than maybe but let's be honest if their was truly a better choice don't you think over the mast 10 years of it coming out of appearance gear their might of been found by now?
Not really. The reason we are all so excited about Pantheon is there has been nothing like it in way more than 10 years.
Games like LOTRO found that an appearance system, if it was subtle, people didn't get upset about and most people just used.
Games like WoW found that an appearance system, if is wasn's subtle, but the graphics weren't subtle anyway, most people just used or ignored.
Other games found the appearance systems were horrible, cash-shop nightmares, but were far from the main reason people didn't like those games.
If a lot of people genuinely don't like an appearance system for Pantheon, then all I'm saying is, for those that do, the toggle isn't a good compromise.
And, no, I'm not arrogant enough to think I know what's best or that no one else can come up with an idea better than mine.
I love how you keep picking and choosing which statements to respond to everytime you respond and completely ignore the rest.
It's a visual effect, you can say some crazy immersive way but if you basically says "I can't see adventure gear only." People are going to be upset. And as I've said many times adventure gear should always be placed at a higher priority than appearance gear.....always
And if you say some crazy immersive way but it basically says "I can't express myself the way I want to." They are going to complain.
The situation stays the same and their nothing you can do about that,.
So we can come up with basically 15,000 different solutions but all of them support one way than the other (which they would.) The other party isn't going to be happy about it, so as I said your over complicating it to the point a compromise can't be reach and to think that their is one when it literally can or can not see something is bizarre to me, as I can't half see something and half not see it.
And even if you could neither side would want it because it hurts both worlds evenly with not much upside to it anyway.
@Riahuf22 et all adventuring appearance only preferers
How do crafted items fit into the adventuring appearance only mindset? The crafting community is pushing heavily for a more modular design to crafting where the base item will be more generic in appearance and the final stats will depend more on the secondary processes.
This would create an entire set of gear that is not as iconic and immediately recognizable as say the Velious armor quest class items were. We are hoping there will be at least some options on what our final products will look like rather than just all banded armor looking like default chain. If there is any crafting appearance customization you may already need to inspect someone to see just how good their gear really is. This is doubly important for gear that doesn’t have a visual appearance anyway.
This question is under the assumption that the range of colors and styles are within the range of dropped items but likely not including the visual options unique to special iconic items so there wont be an option for hot pink armor unless hot pink armor already exists as a drop and there will be no faking super rare raid drops.
Trasak said:@Riahuf22 et all adventuring appearance only preferers
How do crafted items fit into the adventuring appearance only mindset? The crafting community is pushing heavily for a more modular design to crafting where the base item will be more generic in appearance and the final stats will depend more on the secondary processes.
This would create an entire set of gear that is not as iconic and immediately recognizable as say the Velious armor quest class items were. We are hoping there will be at least some options on what our final products will look like rather than just all banded armor looking like default chain. If there is any crafting appearance customization you may already need to inspect someone to see just how good their gear really is. This is doubly important for gear that doesn’t have a visual appearance anyway.
This question is under the assumption that the range of colors and styles are within the range of dropped items but likely not including the visual options unique to special iconic items so there wont be an option for hot pink armor unless hot pink armor already exists as a drop and there will be no faking super rare raid drops.
I understand that but if you want to see adventure gear only than you take those hits with that is the way it is, we understand what that can mean with this option, and if you want appearance gear than slap it on and look the way you want, the toggle isn't visually affecting you in anyway what's so ever.
And as I said since all games maim core features is how they "visually present itself " is one of the more important parts of the game, denying that to a group of people would be quite damaging.
And I know many think I'm going to be quite biased but I would rather both parties have their world in a visually aspect be satisfied than one side have it fulfill and the other world be completely ruined simply because they tried to also fulfill the whole "how I want to be seen by others" aspect,
And since the toggle does fulfill that both worlds would give all players the world they want to see simply outweighs the negative that it could bring
Now again I know people are going to disagree with me, but quite frankly no matter what I will also find them selfish, and arrogant.
Because at least I fulfill both world visually and they are simply trying to take everything for themselves and give nothing in return, when they already were given a compromise of a rp server nut are still hungry for more, so yeah pretty selfish to say the least.
@Riahuf22
Not to nitpick but you didn’t answer my question.
How does crafted gear fit into the mindset of adventuring appearance only? The items will need to have some appearance given to them that the adventurers see and due to the general time it takes to make new models there will be some overlap with either other crafted items, dropped items or both.
Well the way it looks is completely up to the devs, and no matter how it looks I would accept it for what it is, now if your asking me do I want to see a bunch of pieces of gear that looks the same with different tints of color no now really, but again if those pieces of gear were meant to be ordinary like banded gear than I would also acknowledge that and accept it for what it is for as long the harder items that can be crafted or looted from high end dungeons looked completely different from each other I won be okay with that, and I also know that once you have a ton of items in the game it hard to make most look completely different from each other, and at least me I would also be okay with that.
And not to change the topic but quite frankly i could see also wanting the chance of changing the way their spells look when they cadt it, I mean it's an extension of themselves right, so my fire bolt can look like a frost bolt for as long it does what a fire bolt is suppose to do right? Or my rain of fire look like a blizzard maybe my poison bolt look like a curse spell. It following the same line of thought correct,
Chabging the way you appear without actually wearing that piece of gear
Changing the way the spells look without actually casting that spell.
Sounds pretty similar I could see this being the next topic.
Rogue said:I am all for appearance gear. I don't quite understand the attitude people have towards the life cycle in game. Acting like people of the fantasy time wouldn't progress their own designs, memes, and draw dicks on walls. It's historical truth.
Played old school EQ for years, when I moved to Agnarr, I rather enjoyed customizing equipment and armor. Now a days, not having it just seems like watching people stuck in their own ways stay that way until they drive off a cliff. "HOW did you not see the cliff?" "I saw it, but that's where the road went..."
Nothing is immersive in these games. Outside of a few select communities on RP servers, if a game takes off, no one has any respect for your immersion. So, immersion as an argument doesn't really exist in my eyes.
Either way, I don't care. If you put in appearance items, I will most definitely use them and customize frequently. Looking good without being forced into ugly gear because "stats" or wearing that shiny glow sword because "epic" would be great. If you don't, well, at least the peanut gallery will be happy.
I certainly AM a middle roader on this topic but comments such as these push me towards no appearance gear in game (even knowing that some WILL be in). This ultimately summates what happens when its allowed. People who say out right they dont understand the otherside, but have the nerve to call it the peanut gallery anyways. Hello YOUR the one who openly states they dont understand... YOUR the peanut gallery. Atleast make a case... Calling people names and saying you dont understand them as if theres nothing to understand is indicative that you shouldnt be posting. Your certainly not helping the case for your side. Theres a certain type of entitled mentality rising up in the world and it seems to manifest in our little worlds as "everybody wins gear trophys that looks like better than it is". Seems the real challenge of todays MMOs is to ostracize and remove this behaviour from the entire community, before it poisons the well.
P.S. I never saw anyone draw a dick on a wall in a game until after WoW released.
Riahuf22 said:And not to change the topic but quite frankly i could see also wanting the chance of changing the way their spells look when they cadt it, I mean it's an extension of themselves right, so my fire bolt can look like a frost bolt for as long it does what a fire bolt is suppose to do right? Or my rain of fire look like a blizzard maybe my poison bolt look like a curse spell. It following the same line of thought correct,
Chabging the way you appear without actually wearing that piece of gear
Changing the way the spells look without actually casting that spell.
Sounds pretty similar I could see this being the next topic.
I don’t think that is really a fair comparison. Slot and base item types would consistent with appearance slots i.e. you would only be able to swap one chain bracer model with a different chain bracer model, not cloth or plate.
A really appearance adjustment to your spells would be more like making your fireball shaped like a fiery phoenix rather than a fiery basketball while in flight rather than changing the effect to a different base spell type.
Now there is also some room to discuss morphing your base fireball spell into a cold ball spell with cold mechanics at which point it would also be reasonable to change the red/orange spell effect to a blue/white effect. Whether or not options like that appear in game will be greatly dependent on final class design and combat system.