disposalist said:Yeah understood and I don't disagree with your rationale, but I'm really not sure there are more players that really need to know at a glance than care about what they look like.
I am sure, though, that a toggle to switch appearance off make it 100% great for one side and ruins it to some extent up to 100% for the other.
Maybe seperate servers is the only way.
i think splitting servers(further subcategorizing) because of appearence is overkill >.> i can understand if it affected gameplay. im okay with rp being always on(i agree with a toggle affecting rp gameplay), but i think normal and pvp servers should be toggle.
rp pvp is kind of an odd sheep lol, but probably toggle is the better option since rp pvpers will lean more on the pvp side, if not they'd play on just an rp server.
so streamline of what i'm saying:
pvp, normal, rppvp = toggle appeareance.
rp = toggle always on.
disposalist said:stellarmind said:disposalist said:Maybe seperate servers is the only way.
rp = toggle always on.
Yeah that's what I meant. RP server would be the 'seperate' server where the toggle could be always on. Would make sense.
Fine with this, as i have no intention of playing on a rp server, and it does allow someone to go to have this option open to them if they decide to do this for people.
Riahuf22 said:disposalist said:stellarmind said:disposalist said:Maybe seperate servers is the only way.
rp = toggle always on.
Yeah that's what I meant. RP server would be the 'seperate' server where the toggle could be always on. Would make sense.
Fine with this, as i have no intention of playing on a rp server, and it does allow someone to go to have this option open to them if they decide to do this for people.
Well, look at that: there *is* a compromise that suits us both and we didn't have to win a debate, reach an agreement or even come to an understanding for it to work. That's quite something.
Just curious: Why have you no intention of playing on an RP server?
I'm simply just not a roleplayer, nothing about roleplaying specifically, i just don't think i could try to use the grammar of a dwarf or to constantly do it even if i could at all times, i know not all people do this on rp servers but if i were on one i would like to pull it off, but since i know me more than anyone else, i'll simply not join one and save myself from such expectations.
Trasak said:Yeah, chalk that up as a post that went over like a lead balloon. I was reaching for example that could show actual hurt from a business perspective other than “it makes me feel ikky if someone can change my clothes without my permission”. Unfortunately, that example touches on a part of gaming culture that most of us, myself included, actually despise.
You may have been using an extreme example but I basically replaced "brand" with "reputation" and figured that the majority of your post would apply to many gamers. (Sorry in advance for the upcoming wall of text ... it is not directed at you.) To put things in context ... of how this problem is being solved ...
Let's consider "naming guidelines" in various MMO's. Imagine for a moment if a company allowed you to name your character whatever you wanted, no matter how awful. In that example, the egregious/offensive names would be chainmail bikinis, santa hats, angel wings, etc. What is the best way to solve this issue? Should the game allow players to use whatever name they want and give others the option to /toggle off the names that they don't like? Or should the game just disallow egregious/offensive names in the first place (not design stupid-looking items that don't belong in a high-fantasy world?)
The biggest issue I have with this thread is that the same misconceptions have been touted as "truth" on nearly every page. People are conflating "appearance slots" with "cosmetic gear" that is typically purchased in a cash shop. With the way the question was asked in the OP, it suggested an either/or proposition. Should players be able to change their appearance or wear stuff that shows off their accomplishments? Considering the target market for this game, it's quite obvious that most folks would immediately choose the latter, and be happy to also tell you why "cosmetic gear" has ruined modern MMO's. VR has been very consistent in saying that Pantheon will not have a cash shop ... that regardless of how the appearance toggle works, all gear must be earned in-game. Suggesting that we have an either/or choice, at least in the context of Pantheon, is a false premise.
At this point ... I would like to see some clarification from VR on how they plan on implementing this toggle. I have always thought the toggle was backward. If you think about any game out there that sells skins (understanding that Pantheon would not be doing that) -- Just imagine for a moment if those games gave players a toggle where they could disable the skins they see on others. The reason I bring this up is that billions of dollars are spent on cosmetic skins in online video games. Billions! That number would reduce dramatically if people had the option to simply "disable" skin effects on other players because they just didn't feel like seeing them. Skins are popular because they help players stand out and feel different from every other player who plays the same character (or class in MMO context.) They help create a mood ... a theme, they add personality, flavor, and context.
When it comes to MMO's like Pantheon ... where you have a persistent world, where players can actually earn a reputation in their community, where "appearance" is something you work for rather than something you buy -- the value of that appearance does not go down. I would argue that it increases substantially! That is exactly why so many people are turned off by cash shops where you can buy a skin and slap it on your character. That stuff belongs in MOBA's and other session-based games, not in a persistent open-world MMO. What does belong here, though, is the idea of giving players a sense of agency with how their character appears in the world. Visual representation is even more meaningful in an MMO without a cash-shop because when you see that rubicite breastplate ... you know right away that the player acquired it through in-game action rather than having their credit card processed.
As I mentioned on a previous page ... we are counting on VR to get a lot of things right. They have confirmed multiple times that we will not have a cash shop, and that regardless of how the appearance toggle works, items that affect character appearance must be earned in-game. As long as we accept those two things as truth, and apply a little common sense (Pantheon does not seem to be the kind of game that will design santa hats / angel wings / cartoon-head slippers, inflatable donuts, as part of the core experience) -- what is the concern? What is it that players are so worried about seeing? Is it really a game-breaking thing that someone can place an appropriate fantasy-themed item they earned into an appearance slot? Seriously!?
Okay ... maybe it is. Obviously, it is, for some. I think it's ridiculous. Appearance slots actually do a lot of positive things for the overall health of the game. They help the economy, they help keep content relevant, they provide a quality-of-life feature that solves the old issue of players looking like clowns in the name of efficiency. They increase the chance of a player seeing someone that looks really interesting which leads to social interactions (asking questions about what they are wearing, where they got it, how hard it was to acquire) -- and also serve as a catalyst to motivate that other player to get some of those same pieces. They allow players to better control how their appearance is attached to their reputation ... which is important! I spent years and years of gaming where I had my "adventure set" and my "AFK-in-town set" -- the adventure set usually looked pretty meh while the AFK set always looked awesome.
As long as appearance slots are limited to adventuring gear only -- meaning no crafting gear, no harvesting gear, no roleplaying gear, no racial gear, no formal gear, no festive gear, at all, ever -- and also use race/class/armor-weapon type restrictions (dwarves cannot wear skar-only stuff, warriors cannot wear paladin only stuff, mages cannot wear plate, hammers cannot appear as swords, etc) I just don't see what the issue is. I do, however, see issues with allowing others to "disable" our ability to manage our appearance. If we go back to one of the earlier points I made ... where players spend billions of dollars on cosmetics ... and accept that a nice chunk of that would be gone if other players could "disable" those cosmetics ... and then correlate that with what would happen here, it isn't good. There are tangible benefits to game/server/economy health as it relates to players having a vested interest in acquiring gear, specifically for its appearance. The more people who stop pursuing that ... because they feel it isn't worth the trouble (because 25/50/75% of other players have cosmetics disabled) -- the less those benefits can be realized. Objectively speaking (as it relates to content relevance and minimizing item value deflation), it would have a negative impact on the game.
This topic eerily reminds me of progeny. A lot of folks don't want to feel "forced" to participate in progeny. They would rather see the feature scrapped completely, or turned into some ridiculous cosmetic-only achievement, than to embrace it for what it is and try to fully realize the potential of what that feature can bring to a game like Pantheon. I think people just need to think about the big picture more. The way another character looks would never cause me to quit playing a fun MMO, especially if there weren't super obvious/outlandish cash-shop trash items in existence, at all. Guess what can make an MMO less fun, though? Ghost zones. Item value deflation. Lack of diversity. Lack of agency. Feeling forced to look like a clown in the name of efficiency and calling that a meaningful choice.
In the end ... I'm going to go back to what I suggested a few pages ago. Instead of creating an on/off toggle, allow players to use their perception skill to investigate others and temporarily bypass any appearance gear they might be wearing. If someone feels absolutely compelled to see what I'm wearing then I'm okay with them temporarily disabling my appearance slots on their screen. That would be a better compromise, in my eyes. If the toggle is universally applied then it sadly creates a situation where a few can ruin it for the many. Maybe it's possible to create some awful looking combination of gear and players try to intentionally troll others by equipping that stuff in their appearance slots. If that causes another player to disable appearance slots for everybody, that sucks. I think that encourages trollish behavior because there are definitely a lot of people who do care about how their character looks. Why empower a few trolls to ruin the fun for the many who enjoy responsibly? I'm not sure if the toggle could be applied on an individual player basis but I would imagine that would be much more intense on resources.
Riahuf22 said:I'm simply just not a roleplayer, nothing about roleplaying specifically, i just don't think i could try to use the grammar of a dwarf or to constantly do it even if i could at all times, i know not all people do this on rp servers but if i were on one i would like to pull it off, but since i know me more than anyone else, i'll simply not join one and save myself from such expectations.
It's not really like that on role-playing servers.
In my experience it simply attracts a more 'serious' and 'mature' crowd that avoid stuff that breaks immersion rather than stand around actually role-playing.
There are rules like not giving spoilers or talking excessively about RL stuff (especially politics, religeon, etc) in chat and definitely using /ooc to discuss out-of-character stuff (so people can switch it off if they want some peace from the real world).
There are of course hardcore RPers and they can be entertaining to watch or tangencially join in for a little, but even on RP servers there's not a lot. You do of course get people who *like* to do some in-character chat even in a group they know, but it's just a tendency and not a constant in my experience.
For me it's just about mixing with people who are more serious than average about the lore and whatnot, but most people aren't weird or nerdy about it and certainly aren't elitist if you don't want to be a hardcore RPer.
You won't get away with calling your character "Legolas McBigNob" or "Terminator Robot" but no one is going to expect any role-playing to be honest.
Try it! You might like it ;^)
Tying the "cosmetics are always on" thing to RP servers would work, sure. But it also has consequences. If that leads to a situation where players purposely play on an RP server, specifically because of the "cosmetics are always on" feature, rather than the true essence of roleplaying ... it waters down the "core experience" that the server is supposed to offer. I do understand how "cosmetics always on" makes more sense on an RP server, for sure. I don't agree, though, that an RP server makes more sense for someone who always wants cosmetics turned on, if that makes sense. In the end, that compromise would probably work. I prefer it more than the toggle ... but it does create other issues. I could see the RP community getting quite annoyed if they had a ton of players showing up there who had zero interest in RP but chose that server anyway just because of how cosmetics are handled.
Well according to Disposalist, people don't RP all the time on them servers anyway, some do but most seem not to, at least by reading it, so i would tihnk that would be fine. Of course there will be some people that could cuase problems on those servers, but I'm sure if they cuased probalems on RP servers they wouldn't be any better off on a normal server.
This has turned out to be a pretty awesome thread.
What I got from this so far is legit issues from the PvP game play perspective where cosmetics can be a hinderence, or rather, how important it is to be able to asses an opponent/player from looking at their stuff- even with an inspect command toggled off. The random factor being the non-vis stuff like jewelry or hidden clickies.
Likewise from an RP perspective where cosmetics are important because.... RP! :) and then from a streamer "branding" perspective which I find sad where the streamer has to be identified in game to the point where any violation is legally binding. Samuel L Jackson getting a purple lightsabre in Star Wars so he could see where he was in the big battle scenes, a one-off request not lightly given by Lucas, was the fun bit but if Samuel L Jackson had the power to sue Lucas if he didn't have a purple lightsabre going forward- takes the heart out of the franchise and makes it assholeish.
Inbetween the two I like the idea of there being enough cool stuff in game so there are plenty of looks just from drops. If VR hired a economist, I am sure there are people on the art team that are practically fashion consultants already? if they have a team that can design a tree with knots with full design docs in a day how many outfits can be created? like so many M:tG cards and from those hundreds... accessories/color/weapon combos- THAT MATCH- or are seamlessly(pun intended) interchangeable? so that feared rainbow harlequin just doesnt exist.
Im just saying a Ratkin looted furry jerkin should look just as bad-ass on a leather wearing Monk Archai, as it does on a Human ranger- but with a different cut because of the race. Archai showing alot more chest maybe.
oneADseven said:...
Comparing MOBA/FPS games with cash shops to an MMO without a cosmetic shop does not work out, they are very different beasts in almost every way.
I don't care if someone has earned a rubicite breastplate at some point in their gameplay, I care what they are wearing right now while we are playing. If another player/group rolls up on mine I'd like to know what I am dealing with, not find out the guy who looks like he is in full bronze armor actually is fully raid geared. If I am in a group I'd like to know without having to ask or trying to inspect every person what gear they are using and if they are rolling honestly for new loot/upgrades or not.
Beside that, one persons clown is anothers realistic ideal. I don't think it's fair to say people who like the random assortment of gear are wrong to like that sort of mercenary/medieval look. In fact I think it exposes more players more often to a wider range of gear than if everyone were clamoring over the generally accepted "coolest" or "prettiest" gear. I'd argue it (appearance gear) creates less gear diversity and visible combinations than it creates.
Riahuf22 said:Well according to Disposalist, people don't RP all the time on them servers anyway, some do but most seem not to, at least by reading it, so i would tihnk that would be fine. Of course there will be some people that could cuase problems on those servers, but I'm sure if they cuased probalems on RP servers they wouldn't be any better off on a normal server.
I think the subtle appearance slots that VR are likely to produce wouldn't attract much of a 'weird' crowd to RP servers.
As 1AD7 said, it's not ideal, but it's a compromise that would probably be fine if there are a lot of people that insist on a toggle on normal servers.
VR might need to do some kind of a more detailed survey on these kind of things eventually.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:...
Comparing MOBA/FPS games with cash shops to an MMO without a cosmetic shop does not work out, they are very different beasts in almost every way.
I don't care if someone has earned a rubicite breastplate at some point in their gameplay, I care what they are wearing right now while we are playing. If another player/group rolls up on mine I'd like to know what I am dealing with, not find out the guy who looks like he is in full bronze armor actually is fully raid geared. If I am in a group I'd like to know without having to ask or trying to inspect every person what gear they are using and if they are rolling honestly for new loot/upgrades or not.
Beside that, one persons clown is anothers realistic ideal. I don't think it's fair to say people who like the random assortment of gear are wrong to like that sort of mercenary/medieval look. In fact I think it exposes more players more often to a wider range of gear than if everyone were clamoring over the generally accepted "coolest" or "prettiest" gear. I'd argue it creates less gear diversity and visible combinations than it creates.
Yeah, good point Iksar. That would look quite odd to see full bronze armor looking like something else and vice versa.
You seemed to miss some of the important context in that message, Iksar. I understand how they are very different. The similarity I was highlighting is how important our character appearance is, regardless of the game being played or how appearance enhancements are earned. I can compare a small ant with a planet even though they are two very different things -- the context of the comparison is based on relative size but the contrast between the two also helps deliver the point. I understand your perspective and I disagree with it. Especially this:
Iksar said:I don't care if someone has earned a rubicite breastplate at some point in their gameplay, I care what they are wearing right now while we are playing. If another player/group rolls up on mine I'd like to know what I am dealing with, not find out the guy who looks like he is in full bronze armor actually is fully raid geared. If I am in a group I'd like to know without having to ask or trying to inspect every person what gear they are using and if they are rolling honestly for new loot/upgrades or not.
That mentality ... to me, is very similar to what we see in a lot of modern games where players are more of a commodity than a precious resource. Players don't care about what others may have achieved during some point in their journey. They only care about what they can contribute to the group right now. They don't want to inspect another player and put various pieces together to have an idea of what they are made of ... they want that information conveyed instantly with an i-level number. They don't want to assess a death and try to determine what went wrong ... they want a DPS meter that spells out, exactly, who is worth their weight. You make valid points here (even though I think they are very self-serving) and my response to those is... okay, instead of you having the ability to permanently disable the appearance that I want to maintain, it's something you can only do temporarily, through the investigate skill from perception. If you're genuinely worried about people trying to scam need rolls for loot, why not just use the loot policy that you have always advocated for? Want/Pass?
Iksar said:Beside that, one persons clown is anothers realistic ideal. I don't think it's fair to say people who like the random assortment of gear are wrong to like that sort of mercenary/medieval look. In fact I think it exposes more players more often to a wider range of gear than if everyone were clamoring over the generally accepted "coolest" or "prettiest" gear. I'd argue it creates less gear diversity and visible combinations than it creates.
I never said anybody is wrong for liking something different. If someone wants to go for that mercenary/patchwork look, they can still do that with appearance slots. Players can go for whatever look they want.
oneADseven said:You seemed to miss some of the important context in that message, Iksar. I understand how they are very different. The similarity I was highlighting is how important our character appearance is, regardless of the game being played or how appearance enhancements are earned. I can compare a small ant with a planet even though they are two very different things -- the context of the comparison is based on relative size but the contrast between the two also helps deliver the point. I understand your perspective and I disagree with it. Especially this:
That mentality ... to me, is very similar to what we see in a lot of modern games where players are more of a commodity than a precious resource. Players don't care about what others may have achieved during some point in their journey. They only care about what they can contribute to the group right now. They don't want to inspect another player and put various pieces together to have an idea of what they are made of ... they want that information conveyed instantly with an i-level number. They don't want to assess a death and try to determine what went wrong ... they want a DPS meter that spells out, exactly, who is worth their weight. You make valid points here (even though I think they are very self-serving) and my response to those is... okay, instead of you having the ability to permanently disable the appearance that I want to maintain, it's something you can only do temporarily, through the investigate skill from perception. If you're genuinely worried about people trying to scam need rolls for loot, why not just use the loot policy that you have always advocated for? Want/Pass?
No I got that but you can't compare. Often the ONLY way to get a fresh/different look in those kinds of games is to pay for a complete skin, the only way to change things up even a little for your favorite characters. The entire monetary designs of the games are based on people paying for cosmetics to show off and hopefully trick/encourage others to open their wallets too. Apparently kids these days even bully one another about having a "default" appearance (not sure what if anything that says about how healthy cosmetics and pushing appearances are). If those games offered players the means to make their character look like whatever skin they wanted but only for themselves while everyone else saw the default model, then those are stats I would love to see.
That's a stretch, I certainly don't desire damage meters and especially don't want item levels. Games of old did not have those things, yet did allow all this visual information to flow to players that now many seek to obscure. I simply value that visual information and consider it important just like being able to con a player or otherwise quickly assess their level. As for the loot, I am a proponent of want/pass but I am not so foolish to believe the gaming community at large will take it up after so many years of conditioning with NBG, soulbound, class specific loot or even truly understand the merit of it over need/greed in this type of game.
@iksar and @187
want/pass – I dig it. In a game where everything is trade-able there are too many ways to hide/conceal what you really have in order to win a greed driven need roll. Easier just to assume all rolls are greed roles and move on. Save gifting good items for your consistent group/caravan/guild/clan.
Needing to know a character is up to snuff to be able to handle content is fair. A quick visual inspection might tell you a few bits of info if the pieces are iconic but you would still need to add up the pieces to know how strong the character really is. They might have a really nice breastplate and sword but the rest is 15-20 levels behind. What might be easier would just be an inspect button that shows the aggregate stats of the character maybe in bins to keep some mystery i.e. rank G is 10-13 strength up to rank SSS is 40-50 strength (no idea the final pantheon stat scale). You could still had a paper doll on the side if you want to inspect the actual pieces, though do you really need to?
If there is some form of Transmog I favor a system where you sacrifice two items to make a new item with the appearance of one stats of the other that becomes soulbound. Almost no-one will down grade a nice item with crappy stats other than on accident usually it will be putting good stats on lower level gear and doing so will still show up on the inspect stats. A player will need to have earned both pieces (as much as any character can really claim to earn anything in a game where everything is trade-able) so displaying an image you haven't earned is out. This will also reinforce the fact there there will be no silly cosmetic gear as everything already drops somewhere in order to mask another piece of gear.
Tool tips of items on the paper doll could say:
Appearance: Rusted Iron Platemaile
Base item: Mithril Breastplate of the Silent Night
Item Enhancements: Strength Rank G, Dex Rank C, Shadow Resist Rank S
If we can some how leverage an appearance alteration system as another item sink it would be good for the game long term. Especially if you can also do things like sacrifice 10 items with Rank C or better Dexterity to add Rank C dexterity to another item. That will in turn feed back to want/pass though everything will be more need than greed but also evenly.
Iksar said:No I got that but you can't compare. Often the ONLY way to get a fresh/different look in those kinds of games is to pay for a complete skin, the only way to change things up even a little for your favorite characters. The entire monetary designs of the games are based on people paying for cosmetics to show off and hopefully trick/encourage others to open their wallets too.
I can compare, and did compare. As someone who has spent over $1k on cosmetic skins in MOBA's, I can say with confidence that I wouldn't have spent a single dime on any of those games if other players had access to a toggle command that disabled my skin on their screen. (Unless, of course, there was a way to ensure that I would only be queued up with other players who had cosmetics turned on.) The entire purpose of buying a skin is to change things up and show off your cosmetics, as you said. The point of the comparison was to say that just like with MOBA's ... if my efforts to "change things up and show off my cosmetics" can be disabled by others, the idea of changing things up and showing off my cosmetics loses its appeal. That, in turn, would have an objectively bad impact on the game ... as it relates to the economy, content relevance, horizontal progression, etc.
Iksar said:If those games offered players the means to make their character look like whatever skin they wanted but only for themselves while everyone else saw the default model, then those are stats I would love to see.
League of Legends just so happened to allow players to do this! Guess what the moral of that story is? The vast majority of players didn't do it ... mostly because the "flair" had zero impact on anybody but yourself, but also because it involved downloading 3'rd party programs. One of the most popular custom skin communities was going semi-strong for almost 3 years before Riot finally closed the door on them and banned custom skin usage. Their community had thousands of players ... which is a drop in the bucket compared to the tens of millions who have purchased skins through the store. The general idea behind it just never gained much traction because, in the context of a shared session, you weren't "changing things up" in the eyes of other players. Maybe I'm wrong on that? Who knows. But speaking from my own personal experience ... I can tell you that I had zero desire to mess around with custom skins. I remember there being some pretty cool ones that I thought were interesting ... but it wasn't worth the effort, even when it was perfectly okay to do it, if those skins weren't going to have a real impression in the games I played.
Beefcake said:Sorry, but you don't get to decide how my character looks.
Unfortunately, according to what VR have said, they do. The toggle appears to be their favoured approach and a lot of folks are saying "yeah, that sounds a fair compromise". It is not. I hope VR are reading this thread.
(Beware! Strong opinionated statement presented as some kind of fact is imminent!)
The toggle issue comes down to this: -
The desire to control knowing what someone is wearing weighed against the desire to control knowing how someone sees you.
So an argument is inevitable?
Some will not feel the desire to control knowing what someone is wearing.
Some will not feel the desire to control knowing how someone sees you.
Where people feel differently, even if they understand, they will disagree.
(Beware! Another strong opinion coming up!)
But, it doesn't matter how you feel, the important thing about the toggle idea is this: -
The toggle 100% satisfies one group and up to 100% *dis*satifies the other (depending on how strong your feelings on appearance and how many players use the toggle).
The definition of "compromise" is a settlement by mutual concession. Expedient acceptance of standard lower than desirable.
One side getting 100% what they want and the other getting between 0.01% (never 0% unless no one uses the toggle!) and 99.9% (never 100% unless everyone uses appearance slots) is not a compromise.
Some other suggested compromises (including mine) that aren't really: -
An /inspect function:
Not convenient enough. This 100% works for one side and less than 100% for the other.
A /con that gives a 'power' rating from gear:
Not detailed enough. A power rating isn't all some want from knowing others' gear.
A lore-based, craft-based appearance changer:
For some it's not about the strict 'realism' of the situation. They want iconic items to have an iconic look.
Anything that has some seeing one thing and some seeing another:
For some anything that adds immersive weirdness and divides the community is unacceptable.
The only one I can see working and that is fair: -
Role-playing servers don't have the toggle.
I personally believe that those who value RP and likely to be a very similar set of people to those that value appearance, but even this has concerns over pushing people into RP servers that aren't suited.
One last resort?
No appearance system.
Don't waste the effort if it won't work for those wanting it in the first place.
One final thought: Bear in mind that some people have feelings so strong that there is no compromise they are willing to accept (again, bearing in mind that the definition of compromise is you must be willing to accept less than 100% satisfaction).
Does anyone have any other ideas?
I think logically three things affect this disagreement.
- Branding
- Safety
- Equality.
Well, VR owns all characters, items, etc in their game so branding is a non-issue.
Safety-wise maybe some parents won't like the costumes in MMOs. Looking at you Asia. I don't see it as an issue in Pantheon.
Is the toggle discrimination? Is everyone treated fairly? What do American judges say about uniforms and free expression?
Some of the art of creating a compromise is not so much “What people want” but rather “Why people want what they want”. It is easy to get hung up on specific wording of an idea. Breaking down a single feature into maybe 3 or 4 parts that can then be modified to make everyone much closer to 99% happy.
Why people want appearance changes and have them controlled by the player owner:
1) Want: People want to be able to express themselves and have the opportunity to deliberately look unique-ish or deliberately look like a member of a group.
2) Want: Control of their own appearance in game.
3) Want: A sub game form of horizontal progression
The whys of people wanting to either control other appearance or have no appearance gear.
1) Want: To be able to recognize someone’s accomplishments by looking at their gear.
2) Want: To avoid outlandish or garish costumes that can be both a system drain and an immersion breaking eye sore.
3) Want: Control of their entire environment.
Only Want #2 of the for cosmetic gear crowd and Want #3 of the against crowd are irreconcilable as they refer to who has personal agency of an avatar’s appearance. This can be compromised by having different servers where the personal agency is with the Avatar owner and others where it is with the avatar viewer but that splits the community and it’s a non mechanical ruleset that will compete with mechanical rule sets for unique servers.
General Compromises:
1) Color layer modifications: When an item is made the designer needs to make color choices when mapping the mesh. Just like there are many shades to “white” wall paint small choices can have an over all effect on how pieces look together. If each piece of gear had color ranges for highlights, main, and shadowing then there could be a great deal of minor modifications that could be made while keeping the item easily recognizable. Its possible that the drops could be randomized in appearance such that finding exactly what you want could be a game itself. In theory this would allow for a fair amount of customization without making a piece unrecognizable.
2) Item modifications, transmog vs Costume cosmetics: Splitting appearance changes into three categories might go a long way to alleviating some of the worries.
3) Community feedback on quality control:
I have not read the entire thread, but I'm sure every stone has been turned by now. Therefore, I will only state my primary concerns, in priotized order:
1. Everybody must see the same, always. A piece of gear on a character is as much a part of the shared virtual world as anything else in the environment. (An exception would be the appearance of yourself on the screen, but I guess few would find any pleasure in dressing up if nobody else could see it). I want to be able to chat meaningfully about what I see on people, and what they see on me.
2. The gear you see should be what you wear. When I venture into a terryfying dungeon I want my tank's looks to reflect her durability, not her fashion skills. I also want to sense the accomplisments of a player by glancing at her character, just as I want her to be able to tell from mine.
I fully appeciate the negative sides of this, and I'm as vain as (almost) anybody. In Vanguard I spent several levels collecting a complete, matching outfit that I thought looked so cool that I kept wearing it much longer than I should have from an effiency-perspective, and I hated how I looked when I couldn't justify that anymore and began to put on more powerful, but not matching pieces. Any clever ideas to remedy this and all the other appearance issues mentioned are most welcome, but please don't try to solve differences in opinions with individualized view options. They do more harm than good to the overall game experience.