Trasak said:Riahuf22 said:
Riahuf if anything you being able to selectively turn specific players appearance gear back on is worse than a toggle for everything being of or on. You are personally, directly in control of how I look. Any time you stream or post screen shots I will look like how you want me to look rather than how I want to look.
- I say, so what? but....
That is honestly unacceptable as it violates my own personal in game brand. If I were to stream in game as well I would have an identifiable look that I would want to be recognizable by. If I happened to get a mechanical upgrade that was incongruous visually with the rest of my gear it would damage my personal brand. Cosmetic slots would allow me to maintain a degree of control of my personal brand though the life of my character. If you were then to see me in game and decide to disable my desired appearance you would be damaging my personal brand (there is actually some precedence for players owning the visual rights to their ingame image and the ULA usually stipulates that the company can choose to use it at their discretion but that usually does not extend to other players using or modifying it).
This is obviously an extreme case from the perspective of a player actually running a business through playing a game but equally obviously there are many people out there doing exactly that.
Image is very important, and I could see a case for disabling cosmetic gear all together but long term the appearance of a character should only be modified by either the player or the data owning company. Giving the rights to modify the appearance of a character to a third party even if it is only from the perspective of that 3rd party is a very slippery slope that likely could have actual grounds for legal challenge in some states as it falls into the perpetually grey area of Intellectual Property.
Yes Trasak, and that is the asshole point right there, I have underlined it. You have well identified this asshole point. the intent to run a business rather than playing a game.
It is extreme and far from what I feel is the intent of the game but exemplary of the potential motivation of some. I judge that motivation as being bad. I would feign to avoid them. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do to prevent them from infiltrating except like the amish perhaps ostracize them. Who saw the recent episode of Silicon valley? where the game designer used open mic to spy on the user to trigger the use of key words to target advertising? Making a Domino's pizza marquis appear over the tavern just because the player mentioned lunch and pizza. Didnt one game offer a pizza delivery service on line at on-point on its road to cheesy-ness and overall badness or....assholishness?
The argument is made for damaging the personal brand and even citing legal precendent, but no argument is made for the offence of having that brand thrust upon one that does not want to see it- otherwise Don't allow the atheists to ***** at exhuberant evagelists wether they be christian or muslim and with the same breath praise the anime porn publically broadcast on billboards in Japan but keep it out of your kids schools...right?
Who didn't read Abbie Hoffmans "Steal this book" when it came out? or are you from an area that is that far behind the times and because of that, therefore can be judged in a populist manner as unfit to make a decision regarding this because you have not had the same experience in the same passage of time and at the same age ... as all of us? (or all of them) So please, leave the room and take what is given and be happy along with acknowledging the right of the player to not see it.
But before I get too socio-comminust where you accept what is given you and be happy with it: Pantheon, where the game plays you! Perhaps the only way the rights to an image can be locked in, in a capitalist environment, where it cannot be modified by any third party; where all the players will be able to be exposed to Miley Cyrus' crotch or Katie Perry's pasties or Fortnite's darling Twitch streamer Ninja's typical headband and spiky hair so remeniscent of purchasable NFL fan gear which doesnt look bad on middle aged fans either, is to charge a good and hefty sum to do so. If there is a cash shop to be had and there will not be.
Otherwise the appearance and look of any assets in game are the sole discretion and design of VR. What is on thier palette (or loot table, or cosmetic dalliances), is what is available.
Gear is just gear. It is what it is. Choices have consequences. If one wants to wear something else, then take it off and put it on.
(That’s not directed at anyone) :)
/hidehelm (or /hidecloak). A feature that let's you override what your actual gear looks like purely for cosmetic reasons.
Appearance slots. A feature that let's you override what your actual gear looks like purely for cosmetic reasons.
Hmm... Are these pretty much the same concept or are they different?... Let me think... Tricky...
Should one of these need a toggle so players can see what's real and the other not? Hmm?... So confusing...
Trasak said:Riahuf22 said:But I don't care if you turn on your cosmetic toggle and see me in a cosmetic gear (1), when ill be traveling in my adventure mode, so why are you so determined to have me see you (2) in a way i dont want to. your going for an ultimate win in a way that will make many people unhappy over a feature that shouldn't be such a big deal, and within a months it wouldn't be anyway.
(2) You are seeing me. Full stop. Not an avatar you control. Maybe you could ask for an ignore button that also made characters disappear from the world or have all characters in cosmetic gear not appear in game for you but you have no right to change me. Knowing anyone has the right to change my appearance is where the hurt comes from.
So your saying that i can can not control an avatar in a game that is suppose to fulfill my fantasy and everytihng i want to see in it. But you can control a Real life person on what they can see regardless if they want to see it or not. ok we are on the same page now.
@Trasak Lol. Making extreme examples and mixing that with sarcasm and hyperbole is not helping, I think. Even to make a point that appears to not be being understood. Intellectual Property? Oh dear hehe. Light that blue touch-paper!
Those that are already freaking out about banana costumes and wanting the freedom to change how others look are just going to freak out further and not get the point at all.
Syrif said:Gear is just gear. It is what it is. Choices have consequences. If one wants to wear something else, then take it off and put it on.
(That’s not directed at anyone) :)
See I can actually respect that. If you want things to simply look like they are *shrug* fine. There's no arguing with that if it's what you want.
The whole craziness starts when an appearance system is suggested but that it's whole purpose should be crippled by a reality toggle.
Of course, a purely 'real gear' system means no /hidehelm or /hidecloak... You should just take the helmet or cloak off.
Probably should have to have huge bulging backpacks showing too... Those should be very visible to be anything like a realistic gear-view.
Any instant use stuff like potions would have to be visible on your belts or something...
Riahuf22 said:So your saying that i can can not control an avatar in a game that is suppose to fulfill my fantasy and everytihng i want to see in it. But you can control a Real life person on want can see regardless of what if they want to see it or not. ok we are on the same page now.
To me that is difference between a multiplayer game an a single player game. The appearance of another players character is just as much out of your control as which ability they choose to use in combat. I do not believe one player should have any method of changing the appearance of another players character even if it is just for that specific player. If you do not like cosmetic gear then play on a server without them enabled. If you do not like others having an influence on your in game experience then play a single player game.
I like the idea of apperance options that are thematically appropriate that do not negatively effect my mechanical progression. It is not critical to me that they exist though. What I fundamentally object to is the ability for one player to alter another players appearance (without their approval, if you are into that then more power to you).
I still say the idea of a surcoat slot is a good way to offer in game appearance control for those who want it without violating the setting. If I were a small game company I would make a simple base model for each slot of cloth, leather, chain and plate. There may be some color, grit and luminosity difference between the different drops but it would be all the same base 3d model. I would instead put more effort into make a large variation of surcoats that can be equipped to personalize your character in a thematically appropriate ways without effecting the game mechanics. Oversized weapons are a pet peeve of mine right up there with chain maile bikini armor so I would hope that developers showed restraint when making weapons as they would not be covered by the surcoat.
disposalist said:Syrif said:Gear is just gear. It is what it is. Choices have consequences. If one wants to wear something else, then take it off and put it on.
(That’s not directed at anyone) :)
See I can actually respect that. If you want things to simply look like they are *shrug* fine. There's no arguing with that if it's what you want.
The whole craziness starts when an appearance system is suggested but that it's whole purpose should be crippled by a reality toggle.
Of course, a purely 'real gear' system means no /hidehelm or /hidecloak... You should just take the helmet or cloak off.
Probably should have to have huge bulging backpacks showing too... Those should be very visible to be anything like a realistic gear-view.
Any instant use stuff like potions would have to be visible on your belts or something...
Craziness? Having an appearance system is fine, and should be available to any and all that desire to avail themselves of it. But what about those that prefer to see things as they actually exist, are they just **** outta luck. Where is the equity in that?
Forget it. Waste of time discussing this any further.
Trasak said:Riahuf22 said:So your saying that i can can not control an avatar in a game that is suppose to fulfill my fantasy and everytihng i want to see in it. But you can control a Real life person on want can see regardless of what if they want to see it or not. ok we are on the same page now.
To me that is difference between a multiplayer game an a single player game. The appearance of another players character is just as much out of your control as which ability they choose to use in combat. I do not believe one player should have any method of changing the appearance of another players character even if it is just for that specific player. If you do not like cosmetic gear then play on a server without them enabled. If you do not like others having an influence on your in game experience then play a single player game.
I like the idea of apperance options that are thematically appropriate that do not negatively effect my mechanical progression. It is not critical to me that they exist though. What I fundamentally object to is the ability for one player to alter another players appearance (without their approval, if you are into that then more power to you).
I still say the idea of a surcoat slot is a good way to offer in game appearance control for those who want it without violating the setting. If I were a small game company I would make a simple base model for each slot of cloth, leather, chain and plate. There may be some color, grit and luminosity difference between the different drops but it would be all the same base 3d model. I would instead put more effort into make a large variation of surcoats that can be equipped to personalize your character in a thematically appropriate ways without effecting the game mechanics. Oversized weapons are a pet peeve of mine right up there with chain maile bikini armor so I would hope that developers showed restraint when making weapons as they would not be covered by the surcoat.
It's simple thn you like to see all these sppearances, than turn on the toggle, i'll have mine off and have me enojy my ex[perience its simple. stop trying to say what i wan tis wrong or anything of the sort becuase its not, im respecting the fact you want to enojy cosmetic gear and have it on, i think my opinion should be respected as much as your is. It is that simple so instead of trying to say that what i want is wrong, it isnt much like yours isn't wrong so im not fihgting that PoV, i just want my PoV to exsist as well.
disposalist said:@Trasak Lol. Making extreme examples and mixing that with sarcasm and hyperbole is not helping, I think. Even to make a point that appears to not be being understood. Intellectual Property? Oh dear hehe. Light that blue touch-paper!
Those that are already freaking out about banana costumes and wanting the freedom to change how others look are just going to freak out further and not get the point at all.
Yeah, chalk that up as a post that went over like a lead balloon. I was reaching for example that could show actual hurt from a business perspective other than “it makes me feel ikky if someone can change my clothes without my permission”. Unfortunately, that example touches on a part of gaming culture that most of us, myself included, actually despise.
Sadly the IP issue is a real thing under derivative art copyrights. It is a headache that will continue to become more prevalent as time goes forward. It also ties into the concept of being able to change someone elses Facebook page but only for you. If the Pantheon eHarmony system moves forward I think it will be likely that we all have our own internal (and possibly external) facebook like page for our different characters as well as the option to have it tied to your account. That page would likely have an image of your avatar on it, cosmetic gear and all.
Roleplay servers? Forced cosmetics. Regular & PvP servers? Player toggle.
They can make it easy to tell who is viewing what with something as simple as EQs player name colors, purple player names have cosmetics toggled on while blue player names see adventuring gear. None of this "how will I know what people are seeing or what item they might be asking me about?"
Lets just keep going round and round on this bad boy though, can probably squeeze a few more pages out before we lock it.
Riahuf22 said:It's simple thn you like to see all these sppearances, than turn on the toggle, i'll have mine off and have me enojy my ex[perience its simple. stop trying to say what i wan tis wrong... blah blah blah
And around and around we go!
You feel you must be able to see what others are actually wearing at a glance and /inspect is not good enough. Fine.
But if you truly cannot see that a lot of people care what *others see* and appearance slots are so you can decide what *others see* and a toggle that disables appearance slots in what *others see* makes it pointless and weird then there really is no point discussing it further.
Iksar said:Roleplay servers? Forced cosmetics. Regular & PvP servers? Player toggle.
They can make it easy to tell who is viewing what with something as simple as EQs player name colors, purple player names have cosmetics toggled on while blue player names see adventuring gear. None of this "how will I know what people are seeing or what item they might be asking me about?"
Lets just keep going round and round on this bad boy though, can probably squeeze a few more pages out before we lock it.
Thank goodness, Iksar your a savior! This could help alot, I'm just hoping VR is listening, and taking some of this info and hearing everyone equally :).
disposalist said:Riahuf22 said:It's simple thn you like to see all these sppearances, than turn on the toggle, i'll have mine off and have me enojy my ex[perience its simple. stop trying to say what i wan tis wrong... blah blah blah
And around and around we go!
You feel you must be able to see what others are actually wearing at a glance and /inspect is not good enough. Blah, Blah, Blah!!!!!
And around and around we go!
Iksar said:Roleplay servers? Forced cosmetics. Regular & PvP servers? Player toggle.
They can make it easy to tell who is viewing what with something as simple as EQs player name colors, purple player names have cosmetics toggled on while blue player names see adventuring gear. None of this "how will I know what people are seeing or what item they might be asking me about?"
Lets just keep going round and round on this bad boy though, can probably squeeze a few more pages out before we lock it.
The different servers is fine, but knowing whether people see appearance slots or not is only mitigating some of the confusion. It still leaves half (or more or less who knows) of players seeing your gear, so setting up appearance slots is, what, 50% pointless? 75%? 25% And if you care what others see, which is pretty much the whole point, then you still have to make sure you 'real' gear looks good.
There are few compromises that work for both. A seperate server does seem one way. You'd think appearance slot items being sensible (earned and appriopriate to class and type) and an /inspect function would be enough for those that don't want to see weird appearance gear and must know what others are really wearing, but apparently that's not enough.
There is a fundamental issue here. Some people don't care what they look like to others apart from to maybe show off what they have obtained. They clearly do not understand or do not value the reasons or feelings of those that *do* care what they look like to others.
disposalist said:The different servers is fine, but knowing whether people see appearance slots or not is only mitigating some of the confusion. It still leaves half (or more or less who knows) of players seeing your gear, so setting up appearance slots is, what, 50% pointless? 75%? 25% And if you care what others see, which is pretty much the whole point, then you still have to make sure you 'real' gear looks good.
There are few compromises that work for both. A seperate server does seem one way. You'd think appearance slot items being sensible (earned and appriopriate to class and type) and an /inspect function would be enough for those that don't want to see weird appearance gear and must know what others are really wearing, but apparently that's not enough.
There is a fundamental issue here. Some people don't care what they look like to others apart from to maybe show off what they have obtained. They clearly do not understand or do not value the reasons or feelings of those that *do* care what they look like to others.
between all on or all off, i think i'd go with all on now. i've changed my mind. i want to look like a ragged wanderer and smash every other pvper in the face so that when i kill them i can say, 'gg scrub you got beat by a nobody.'
i belib in the freedom of expression! and a toggle is nothing more than censorship@!
I think controlling what Real Life people see regardless if they want to see it or not is a problem in itself, but yet you ignore it, just becuase you want to look good in a game. At least some of us are trying to give the power to the person that deserves it, the one behind the computer, have them decide. It isn't a decision you should have to have nor should it ever be that way.
disposalist said:The different servers is fine, but knowing whether people see appearance slots or not is only mitigating some of the confusion. It still leaves half (or more or less who knows) of players seeing your gear, so setting up appearance slots is, what, 50% pointless? 75%? 25% And if you care what others see, which is pretty much the whole point, then you still have to make sure you 'real' gear looks good.
There are few compromises that work for both. A seperate server does seem one way. You'd think appearance slot items being sensible (earned and appriopriate to class and type) and an /inspect function would be enough for those that don't want to see weird appearance gear and must know what others are really wearing, but apparently that's not enough.
There is a fundamental issue here. Some people don't care what they look like to others apart from to maybe show off what they have obtained. They clearly do not understand or do not value the reasons or feelings of those that *do* care what they look like to others.
Trying to appeal/show off to those that don't care that everyone is dressed up in a mixed assortment of armors is odd, it isn't impressive or appealing to them. I'd bet the majority of players would play with cosmetics toggled on (especially if it's on by default) because even if they don't care what others think they probably still want to look appealing to themselves.
Having to /inspect (assuming it can't be blocked like in EQ) every person and every item just to have an idea what they actually are packing is a VERY different and far more tedious endeavor than being able to glance at a group of players and have a good idea of exactly where each player is in progression or what items each is bringing to the table. An experienced player could run through the EC tunnel in EQ and know more or less what every person was wearing while running by, it would take hours to get that kind of information if you had to individually inspect each person.
Some people value that information and how quick it can be obtained, especially if often meeting or grouping with pubs/new people. Not to mention when players end up engaging in pseudo PvP fighting over spawns with MDD, it is important to be able to assess other players/groups quickly.
Iksar said:disposalist said:The different servers is fine, but knowing whether people see appearance slots or not is only mitigating some of the confusion. It still leaves half (or more or less who knows) of players seeing your gear, so setting up appearance slots is, what, 50% pointless? 75%? 25% And if you care what others see, which is pretty much the whole point, then you still have to make sure you 'real' gear looks good.
There are few compromises that work for both. A seperate server does seem one way. You'd think appearance slot items being sensible (earned and appriopriate to class and type) and an /inspect function would be enough for those that don't want to see weird appearance gear and must know what others are really wearing, but apparently that's not enough.
There is a fundamental issue here. Some people don't care what they look like to others apart from to maybe show off what they have obtained. They clearly do not understand or do not value the reasons or feelings of those that *do* care what they look like to others.
Trying to appeal/show off to those that don't care that everyone is dressed up in a mixed assortment of armors is odd, it isn't impressive or appealing to them. I'd bet the majority of players would play with cosmetics toggled on (especially if it's on by default) because even if they don't care what others think they probably still want to look appealing to themselves.
Having to /inspect (assuming it can't be blocked like in EQ) every person and every item just to have an idea what they actually are packing is a VERY different and far more tedious endeavor than being able to glance at a group of players and have a good idea of exactly where each player is in progression or what items each is bringing to the table. An experienced player could run through the EC tunnel in EQ and know more or less what every person was wearing while running by, it would take hours to get that kind of information if you had to individually inspect each person.
Some people value that information and how quick it can be obtained, especially if often meeting or grouping with pubs/new people. Not to mention when players end up engaging in pseudo PvP fighting over spawns with MDD, it is important to be able to assess other players/groups quickly.
Yeah understood and I don't disagree with your rationale, but I'm really not sure there are more players that really need to know at a glance than care about what they look like.
I am sure, though, that a toggle to switch appearance off make it 100% great for one side and ruins it to some extent up to 100% for the other.
Maybe seperate servers is the only way.
Manouk said:Who didn't read Abbie Hoffmans "Steal this book" when it came out?
*raises hand* I was like -10 when that book came out. I have read Stranger in a Strange Land and A Brave New World but I try to avoid propaganda literature and it was never required for a class. I stopped reading Sword of Truth series when it started feeling like I was at a white nationalist rally (who moonlite as BDSM instructors). Pieres Anthony also got dropped cause "ewww" for almost the opposite reason (free love . . . with anything that moves?).
The point of my post was to try and show a tangible example of someone who would want to control their image.
Ulitmately though its a strong personal feeling. While my personal feeling is not up for debate (its a feeling not a fact) how it is applied in a game setting is up to VR to decide. I feel that the appearance of ones own avatar should be soley under their control. There are lots of reasons I feel this way but its how I balance my personal beliefs and experiences that pushes Avatar appearance into the freedom of speech/expression catagory and there for should be protected from censorship. I also acknowledge that a game avatars appearance is relatively inconsequential compared with actual freedom of speech or other truly important liberties.
My first suggestion to have servers with different rules is the best way to make everyone happy as people will consent to those rules when they join the server, with the understanding that we could also petition VR to remove any objectionable appearance options.
disposalist said:Yeah understood and I don't disagree with your rationale, but I'm really not sure there are more players that really need to know at a glance than care about what they look like.
I am sure, though, that a toggle to switch appearance off make it 100% great for one side and ruins it to some extent up to 100% for the other.
Maybe seperate servers is the only way.
If we are perfectly honest there are more than two sides there. I'd bet there are plenty within the appearance side that would be perfectly happy just being able to see themselves however they'd like without caring if everyone sees them that way, especially if they could easily tell who could and couldn't without having to wonder.
Riahuf22 said:I think controlling what Real Life people see regardless if they want to see it or not is a problem in itself, but yet you ignore it, just becuase you want to look good in a game. At least some of us are trying to give the power to the person that deserves it, the one behind the computer, have them decide. It isn't a decision you should have to have nor should it ever be that way.
Not ignoring it. Mentioned it several times that I understand and respect the opinion that stuff should simply look like what it is. Said it only a couple of posts ago. Would be fine with it if that ends up in game.
That does not mean the toggle is a good solution or compromise if appearance slots are to be in game though. It is not. For all the reasons given multiple times in different ways.
*You* feel that a third party should have power over *my* appearance in a multi-player, shared-experience game and then you attempt to say that your feelings and opinons on the matter are somehow "to give the power to the person that deserves it" like your opinions and feelings are "the truth" of the matter.
I can just as equally and validly say that having the power over how I look "isn't a decision you should have to have nor should it ever be that way".
I'm not. I'm saying that *if* you want that ability then it makes appearance slots worthless to me and has confusing side-effects and should possibly be on a different server.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
I vote for players being know for accomplishments by displaying the proper graphic for the gear.
Some sort of dressing room where you hold down a few keys and right click from an inspection/inventory/trade window is cool, and builds anticipation to acquire fatter loot.
edit:
"while we grind let's talk about...really good gear that looks silly, and not so good gear that looks awesome" is a timeless conversation.
Iksar said:disposalist said:Yeah understood and I don't disagree with your rationale, but I'm really not sure there are more players that really need to know at a glance than care about what they look like.
I am sure, though, that a toggle to switch appearance off make it 100% great for one side and ruins it to some extent up to 100% for the other.
Maybe seperate servers is the only way.
If we are perfectly honest there are more than two sides there. I'd bet there are plenty within the appearance side that would be perfectly happy just being able to see themselves however they'd like without caring if everyone sees them that way, especially if they could easily tell who could and couldn't without having to wonder.
True. And there are plenty that don't like others knowing *at all* what they wear. There were a load in EQ that would go anon and disable /inspect and not for PvP purposes. Because there were no appearances slots or anything similar in EQ you had hardly any choice to be truly secretive though.
They are *very* unlikely to get what they want if they come and argue thier case in this thread, though hehe.
And as I keep saying I'm not arguing one way of the other is objectively 'right' - I would even be fine with no appearance slots, though I'd prefer something like a subtle LOTRO wardrobe system.
What I *am* arguing about is the toggle. People don't seem to get that *if* you care about what you look like to others (and that is not a weird or small niche of player) then the toggle mucks that up. Even if you aren't it will cause immersive issues.