Pantheon was mentioned in a recent PCGAMER article about old school MMO mechanics.
"Wonz tells me he's a believer in a potential MMORPG renaissance. There is at least one MMO in production, called Pantheon, which is trying to evoke the spirit of what r/mmorpg believes has gone missing. ("We focus on these poignant elements of design and aim to provide our players with environments conducive to building reputations, friendships and alliances—as well as rivalries and notoriety," reads the statement of purpose on the website.) Perhaps its success or failure will be a sign: Whether the industry has changed, or we have."
https://www.pcgamer.com/for-mmo-diehards-theres-only-one-conversation-is-the-genre-dead-or-dying/
Well the industry definitely changed. Not really a smart statement by whoever that is.
FTP, monetization has essentially killed pre-2K game design.
Game design 101 for the last 2 decades has essentially morphed into FTP, G2W, P2W farming games designed to work on players OCD triggers like collecting and grinding. As well as playing on peoples thinking that RNG is actually investing time towards something. When it's just throwing away money on gambling.
This is good to see. r/MMORPG tends to be pretty harsh on Pantheon. But I think even most people that talk crap about it are just frustrated because they too want a renaissance in the genre. But they just don't believe it to be true yet. The amount riding on the potential success of Pantheon can't be understated imo.
Bazgrim said:The amount riding on the potential success of Pantheon can't be understated imo.
Not really. Pantheon will not reinvigorate the entire genre, not by a long shot, because the market is splintered. More MMO developers are realizing, have realized actually, that a niche game that attracts a very specific audience is more stable in the long term than a game that tries to attract, and keep, everyone. Crowfall is a niche game, as is Camelot Unchained, as is EVE Online, etc. Regardless of how much of a marketshare Pantheon captures, for those that will never see any fault in the game inspite of their obviousness, it will be successful enough for them. Whether that quantity of players keep the game financially viable is another question.
Will Pantheon be successful? Insofar as it makes enough to keep the servers running and expansions coming...yes. Is it a groundbreaking game? Hardly. Is it evolutionary or revolutionary? Barely evolutionary, definitely not revolutionary. Will I still play it? Absolutely because it speaks enough to me, so far, to continue supporting it by purchasing multiple accounts and planning on playing for many year.
In fairness, to someone who isn't familiar with how much things have improved here over the last few years Pantheon is the Harold Stassen of MMOs. Always in development, always saying good things will happen, never really advancing towards an actual release. And there is some truth to this - VR will surely acknowledge that there have been many delays and false steps and things have gone far more slowly than they hoped and expected 5 years ago or 3 years ago.
Today we see that staff has grown, that noticable progress has been made in many aspects of the game, and many of us are optimistic. But someone not looking quite so closely sees we are in pre-alpha not even alpha, we do not have a projected time period for alpha much less beta or release, and the dread term "vaporware" comes to mind. Surely even we optimists recognize that more MMOs in development fail than become big successes. We look at Pantheon's strengths and goals of becoming a solid game with a somewhat limited core playerbase, not a WoW-killer and think that this will be one of the exceptions. It is more than understandable that people less involved will be less optimistic.
Historical background. Harold Stassen ran for United States President - many times. Not as a third-party candidate - seeking a major party nomination. Originally he was a serious candidate but the last times he ran he had no chance of winning and was just considered a joke. People even printed up "Stop Stassen" buttons and wore tham at Republican conventions. Thus my reference is to something whose name is often seen and that may take itself seriously but is not taken seriously by others. Needless to say I do not think we *are* the Harold Stassen of MMOs but it is fair to say some perceive us as such - the game has been in development for a long time with at least one complete do-over a while back.
Vandraad said:Bazgrim said:The amount riding on the potential success of Pantheon can't be understated imo.
Not really. Pantheon will not reinvigorate the entire genre, not by a long shot, because the market is splintered. More MMO developers are realizing, have realized actually, that a niche game that attracts a very specific audience is more stable in the long term than a game that tries to attract, and keep, everyone. Crowfall is a niche game, as is Camelot Unchained, as is EVE Online, etc. Regardless of how much of a marketshare Pantheon captures, for those that will never see any fault in the game inspite of their obviousness it will be successful enough for them. Whether that quantity of players keep the game financial viable is another question.
Will Pantheon be successful? Insofar as it makes enough to keep the servers running and expansions coming...yes. Is it a groundbreaking game? Hardly. Is it evolutionary or revolutionary? Barely evolutionary, definitely not revolutionary. Will I still play it? Absolutely because it speak enough to me, so far, to continue supporting it by purchasing multiple accounts and planning on playing for many year.
yea i agree too. if i compared mmos to bars/lounges/clubs, pantheon would be a old school bar under construction, ff14 is a lounge apparently on it's way to being a club, wow is a club but everyone is tired of going to the same club so it's on the decline.
i got tired of going to the big night clubs and fancy lounges. at some point, the owners of the club/lounges lost site of what brought people to the place and end up chasing the sex, drugs and rocknroll.
i can't help but feel that vr wasn't about that life so it resonates. i'm just hoping world events don't go to complete poop slugging where i can't enjoy a little bit of luxury with games.
pcgamer has also changed. they no longer have the ad revenue due to a substantial loss of viewership. most old magazines underestimated the impact the internet would have on them. they've devolved into thugs holding up independent game publishers for their money and muscle the big boys. ea is basically the mafia, activision is the triads and bethesda (so sad) are the yakuza.
dorotea said:In fairness, to someone who isn't familiar with how much things have improved here over the last few years Pantheon is the Harold Stassen of MMOs. Always in development, always saying good things will happen, never really advancing towards an actual release. And there is some truth to this - VR will surely acknowledge that there have been many delays and false steps and things have gone far more slowly than they hoped and expected 5 years ago or 3 years ago.
Today we see that staff has grown, that noticable progress has been made in many aspects of the game, and many of us are optimistic. But someone not looking quite so closely sees we are in pre-alpha not even alpha, we do not have a projected time period for alpha much less beta or release, and the dread term "vaporware" comes to mind. Surely even we optimists recognize that more MMOs in development fail than become big successes. We look at Pantheon's strengths and goals of becoming a solid game with a somewhat limited core playerbase, not a WoW-killer and think that this will be one of the exceptions. It is more than understandable that people less involved will be less optimistic.
Historical background. Harold Stassen ran for United States President - many times. Not as a third-party candidate - seeking a major party nomination. Originally he was a serious candidate but the last times he ran he had no chance of winning and was just considered a joke. People even printed up "Stop Stassen" buttons and wore tham at Republican conventions. Thus my reference is to something whose name is often seen and that may take itself seriously but is not taken seriously by others. Needless to say I do not think we *are* the Harold Stassen of MMOs but it is fair to say some perceive us as such - the game has been in development for a long time with at least one complete do-over a while back.
this is interesting: sony was part of making eq. i wouldn't be surprised if they were causing behind the scene problems. i could see chris rowan probably developed some good relationships during his tenure. honestly, chris rowan is the one person i'd like to just sit down with at a zaxbys or raising canes and just talk bs with XD
Caine said:I can't wait to play WoW classic - cause I never played WoW.
So It will be like a brand new MMO for me :)
frustrating yet fun. it was something special until the activision merged with blizzard. ah the good times and the bad times. i bid you sweet and bitter adventures fellow mmoer :D
Nice to see Pantheon getting some publicity, but a weird article. The final paragraph is bizarre.
"The era of the MMO is over, but their influence is still everywhere. It's a convoluted future for a genre that's only getting more confusing and hard to define. At the very least, the denizens of r/mmorpg know the feeling they want. They were there. They saw it with their own eyes. Until they can get it back, they'll be commiserating as they fashion a worthy tomb.
Huh? The genre isn't dead or dying. It makes a catchy provocative headline, I suppose, but the genre is... Split? Diluted? Evolving? Devolving? Etc. Sure there's nothing much being produced that floats my boat for long, but that doesn't mean it's 'over' in some way.
It's in a bit of a decline, but that's hardly surprising given the large amount of bland, homogenised, easy-to-consume, forgetable stuff that has been made in the name of software producers attempting to grab a part of the mass audience Blizzard proved was there. Even Everquest and other old-school MMORPGs moved toward being WoW-esque, because they thought Blizzard must be doing it right. They are popular, yeah? So it *must* be the right way to go!
Here's the thing... The people that loved those original MMORPGs haven't gone. The industry slowly changed under people like me and started catering to someone else, but there's a lot of us left and our tastes haven't changed.
The reason WoW Classic is coming along (and Rift tried it and EQ keeps doing it) is they know we are here and we have wallets and the recent stuff (including *their* recent stuff) isn't what we want.
But they are missing the mark, in my opinion. I will try WoW Classic for nostalgia's sake, but Pantheon is the mother lode I'm really waiting for. A game with an old school core, but modern sophistications (like better graphics and sound (obviously)) and worthy improvements in things like NPC AI and community tools will be a hit.
In some ways it's gutsy of Visionary Realms to make Pantheon, but really, it's common (business) sense. There's a huge audience sucking down modern MMOs. Do you want to try stealing some of that pie? Produce something like everyone else and compete with monsters like Blizzard? Maybe, but why go for that pie when there's a very large audience that is starving. Make them a pie to their tastes and you will corner that market all over again just like Everquest did.
You might even get a lot of those modern MMO consumers to realise how good the old-school way was/is. You *may* start a renaissance, but you don't have to to be a big success.
There's a simlar thing just happened this year with Battlefield (a franchise in the multiplayer online shooter genre). Games like Fortnite and PUBG are incredibly popular now, so for the latest version of Battlefield (5) they wasted time developing a Battle Royale mode and they changed to a Live Service model, etc. etc. They also threw in features from different games modes popular over the years.
The upshot? Those that have loved the Battlefield franchise for 17 years are leaving it. Before, every version was a welcome upgrade and update from the previous. I loved every one in turn. The latest one is the first to be a step backward, making it disappointing and pointless.
I predict the genre undergoes a decline similar to the MMORPG one. Other shooters will attempt to grab a piece of the Fortnite audience (and crowbar in as many other popular features as possible) and, in doing so, betray and lose the audience that loved what intrinsically made their original franchise/game great.
It's not an unusual story in any industry, I guess. Why bother keeping your existing customers happy when you can grab more customers by changing things to appeal to as many as possible, right?
I'm so glad Visionary Realms has the vision to do things differently.
I don't look at Pantheon as a savior of the genre, but I do hope for it to be a catalyst. Something that proves that you don't have to be a big studio with a massive publisher behind you to make a high quality product with lots of depth to it. Something that encourages other studios, even the big ones, to take a few more risks, and to think about retention and longevity instead of raw subscriber count. To actually have a coherent vision, and stick to it. These are things that I (as a consumer) don't see happening enough in the industry, so these are the things I hope will change.
Something I realized the other day that's a difference between older and newer MMOs, is that in the older games, they were set up so that you as a player could achieve some fame and notoriety. You could develop a reputation for yourself as a top tailor, or healer, or raid leader. Because excellence took time and effort, it was possible for players to differentiate themselves from each other. And once you did that, it acted as a powerful incentive to keep playing. You were your guild's tank, or their primary caster dps. You were needed, and you could be proud of that.
I compare that to more recent games where accomplishments are generally trivially easy. Where you can level up fast, where you can look up online what equipment to wear and what rotation to use, and where numbers matter more than skill or attitude, and where you're unlikely to run something with the same players twice. In these games, the emphasis isn't on your role in the community or on your server. It's just on you completing things.
That's what I'm hoping Pantheon will bring back - for itself, and for the industry. The idea that these worlds should be ones where players contribute something meaningful, and where they matter to each other.
Speaking of the genre.. I like it more old school. My buddy, who turned me on to EQ, in 1999, has yet to find another MMO to play, that he likes. You can debate all the dead horse topics, but I won't.
The most convenience I had was printing maps from EQatlas. I roleplayed that out as having a physical map, that I could have bought from a vendor. Then use /loc. It was a luxury!
The only way to recapture the MMORPG of old, is to limit outside websites as tools. Live in the world and problem solve organically using only what the game world provides. Then not worry about the players who "must" find the easiest way to do everything in the game.
Finally, measure your success by a different philosophy of gameplay. It would be cool to have a server of players who did this, but it is the "honor system" most likely. Perhaps a guild that practiced this philosophy.
Nephele said:Something I realized the other day that's a difference between older and newer MMOs, is that in the older games, they were set up so that you as a player could achieve some fame and notoriety. You could develop a reputation for yourself as a top tailor, or healer, or raid leader. Because excellence took time and effort, it was possible for players to differentiate themselves from each other. And once you did that, it acted as a powerful incentive to keep playing. You were your guild's tank, or their primary caster dps. You were needed, and you could be proud of that.
Dude, this right here! Because of that time and effort, we didnt have as many players who had an alt to fill every combat role or fulfill all of our crafting needs. It certainly made the differentiation between players much higher as we were forced to specialize. I never really considered it from this perspective, so thanks for posting your realization!
I think there is a lot riding on Pantheon. For people like me anyways. I've been bouncing around MMO's for the last 5 years looking for something that even comes close to resembling the two games I fell in love with and played until they basically went belly up. This to me is the last ditch effort, if Brad has things his way, and develops the game he wants to develop, without being rushed to release by corporations and it doesn't survive I will probably give up on MMO's entirely and just hang it up so to speak. I kind of feel this way, that if Brad McQuaid can't make it work with his vision then nobody will. He to me is the essence of the games I grew to know and love.
I don't see Pantheon resurrecting old school gaming. I think the players that enjoy this type of MMO will play his game and some new blood will come in but mostly it will be former EQ and Vanguard players. All the players that grew up playing EQ know of P99 and other emulators. It's no secret anymore. And yet their numbers still remain somewhat bleak.
I think Pantheon will survive, and even thrive to an extent that it will have multiple expansions and be played for years to come. But it isn't going to go all WoW on us and captivate entire generations of gamers and change their views.
And really that's all I'm hoping for, the type of community that plays the game because they love that game and not the ones who play it because everyone else is playing it too. I prefer a smaller community with great people. I just hope there is enough to sustain a model that Visionary Realms deems fit to keep funding and programming for years to come. I plan to make a new home here as far as gaming is concerned and it might very well be my last.
Moloka said:I don't see Pantheon resurrecting old school gaming. I think the players that enjoy this type of MMO will play his game and some new blood will come in but mostly it will be former EQ and Vanguard players. All the players that grew up playing EQ know of P99 and other emulators. It's no secret anymore. And yet their numbers still remain somewhat bleak.
I think Pantheon will survive, and even thrive to an extent that it will have multiple expansions and be played for years to come. But it isn't going to go all WoW on us and captivate entire generations of gamers and change their views.
I agree with the first part of your point. I don't think Pantheon will resurrect old school gaming per se, but as someone else pointed out, I believe it will be a catalyst for future change in the genre. Instead of chasing Blizzard's carrot, companies will chase their own in whatever particular niche they are going for.
I have to totally disagree with the second part though. I don't see the numbers being bleak whatsoever. Spread out is probably more accurate, but there is a very real, sizable demographic of people longing for a game like Pantheon. P99 Blue launched almost 10 years ago and when I logged in the other day it had almost 1500 players on it. I think that's remarkable for an emulator, especially one that old. It's doing so well they are launching the Green server this October. Daybreak keeps spinning up Progression servers left and right because of the demand. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it. Blizzard is coming out with WoW Classic this month after they've sworn for years it would never happen. Then there are all the people spread out amongst all the other MMO's/games who are just searching for something to fill the void.
So it can be hard to try and quantify exactly how many people are out there looking for that old school experience because they are spread out to so many places. However, I believe the market is much larger than companies have thought to this point and like was mentioned before, after Pantheon releases it will be a catalyst for change in the genre.
Mandalorian2K said:I agree with the first part of your point. I don't think Pantheon will resurrect old school gaming per se, but as someone else pointed out, I believe it will be a catalyst for future change in the genre. Instead of chasing Blizzard's carrot, companies will chase their own in whatever particular niche they are going for.
I have to totally disagree with the second part though. I don't see the numbers being bleak whatsoever. Spread out is probably more accurate, but there is a very real, sizable demographic of people longing for a game like Pantheon. P99 Blue launched almost 10 years ago and when I logged in the other day it had almost 1500 players on it. I think that's remarkable for an emulator, especially one that old. It's doing so well they are launching the Green server this October. Daybreak keeps spinning up Progression servers left and right because of the demand. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it. Blizzard is coming out with WoW Classic this month after they've sworn for years it would never happen. Then there are all the people spread out amongst all the other MMO's/games who are just searching for something to fill the void.
So it can be hard to try and quantify exactly how many people are out there looking for that old school experience because they are spread out to so many places. However, I believe the market is much larger than companies have thought to this point and like was mentioned before, after Pantheon releases it will be a catalyst for change in the genre.
P99 and P2002 were what I was referring too mostly. You are right about Daybreak creating these servers. But I think mostly it's a lot of the same players who like to keep re-rolling and getting out in front of everyone. You know the whole clean slate type of thing. That's always intriguing and has gotten me into some of them as well. But for the most part I've played on p99 I've never seen it over 2k players. Most of the player base in Daybreak moves to new servers and the old ones are usually low population and dead servers.
It is hard to tell how many there are in total and I have no idea what would constitute a successful amount of subs to make a game viable but I know it isn't hard for Daybreak to keep popping these new servers out they have plenty of space for them lol
P99 is such a toxic environment anymore, I'd imagine that a new server release will be a big hit from the beginning then everyone will realize that the same hardcore players will be at the top blocking everyone else from all the good kills like it was before and they will stop playing.
I have shared this thread across all of our official social media as part of my CM content to get more feedback on this topic, as per below:
"Hot Topic - Is the genre dying or already dead? @pcgamer did a piece on this and gave us a mention https://www.pcgamer.com/for-mmo-diehards-theres-only-one-conversation-is-the-genre-dead-or-dying/ and we wanted to hear your thoughts, so is it dying or already dead in your opinion? Please explain your answer #MMORPG#CommunityMatters"
Please keep the thread on topic and respectful :)
I do think the MMO genre is on life support at the moment, and can be seen pretty clearly in the gaming industry's sharp turn toward gacha type games and loot crate gambling mechanics. Most persistent online games that come out these days are thinly veiled Skinner boxes with no real depth. Some of them have very pretty art assets, and occasionally one will include an interesting take on gameplay mechanics from the MMO genre, but none of them seem built to last anymore. Everyone wanted to be the WoW killer and that was the downfall of all of them. WoW itself is coasting on inertia at this point, but I actually think that's a good thing.
It opens up opportunities to re-enter the market with both new ideas and "back to the basics" type games and diversify the market more without always being under the shadow of the behemoth. I don't think we'll ever see a classic MMO be hugely successful to the extent games like UO, Everquest, and WoW were, but I do think games can be successful if they have an actual vision, stick to it, and commit to longer term ideals than simply boosting profits in the next quarter.
There is certainly demand for a game like Pantheon to come along. I don't think it's going to attract millions upon millions of players, but I do think there is every bit of potential for it to be successful under realistic expectations of a small (comparatively) and dedicated playerbase.
Kilsin said:I have shared this thread across all of our official social media as part of my CM content to get more feedback on this topic, as per below:
"Hot Topic - Is the genre dying or already dead? @pcgamer did a piece on this and gave us a mention https://www.pcgamer.com/for-mmo-diehards-theres-only-one-conversation-is-the-genre-dead-or-dying/ and we wanted to hear your thoughts, so is it dying or already dead in your opinion? Please explain your answer #MMORPG#CommunityMatters"
Please keep the thread on topic and respectful :)
I don't think it is dying so much as the choices of online gaming have expanded and drown out the original forms of social RPGMMO. (FPS, Online card games, Battle royal, etc) Games like Destiny FPSMMO's where they try to simulate what a RPGMMO user to be, but can't, it not an open world that has freedom.
Also, as the industry tried to evolve the RPGMMO, new features were added meant to enhance the experience, but in doing so they "threw out the baby with the bathwater". New generation online players, who did not play the early RPGMMO, don't know what they are missing, and therefore don't supply a demand for this type of gameplay. But that does not mean they don't want it, they just have not been exposed to it. Which means (by my logic) the "old school" playerbase can grow, but don't expect expect the mindless online masses to enjoy this type of experience.
The people who loved playing in a virtual world like EQ are still there, waiting.. Figuring things out for yourself is fun; the physics, story, factions, learning to survive in the world through bonds with other players, eating and drinking, travel, living in a big big world. The freedom to go anywhere and attack anything. interact and trade with players who are in front of you make the world more real. The idea is to escape into a separate world and leave behind reminders of the real world. so I don't want a social media buttons in game. I don't want
/pizza. I want a virtual world all onto itself, complete escape and freedom from outside forces.
No and NO and NOOO! reason why i say this, because many of the games out there for the last 10 plus years really are not up to par with what games like EQ delivered.
The generation of MMORPG are not dead, they just need a solid game like EQ was. Sure you can add new mechanics and flashy graphics but over all we still love the game play.
Is D&D dead? heck no, just not as big as it once was.
The ones that say it is dead, usually are ok with the trashy steam games. Fortnite type games are what kids like, not the older generations.
Do you want young kids playing Pantheon? Not for me i dont.
Vandraad said:Bazgrim said:The amount riding on the potential success of Pantheon can't be understated imo.
More MMO developers are realizing, have realized actually, that a niche game that attracts a very specific audience is more stable in the long term than a game that tries to attract, and keep, everyone. Crowfall is a niche game, as is Camelot Unchained, as is EVE Online, etc. Regardless of how much of a marketshare Pantheon captures, for those that will never see any fault in the game inspite of their obviousness, it will be successful enough for them. Whether that quantity of players keep the game financially viable is another question.
That's exactly what I mean. If Pantheon is commercially successful, it is a big piece of the puzzle to show more companies that providing high quality games for a targeted audience is the way to go. At this point, it doesn't have to be a blockbuster hit just to prove a point to the world that MMO's are still viable and can still be very enjoyable if done right. That will encourage a more positive paradigm than we've seen in a long time. More copying of whatever is most successful is not what the genre needs.