Bazgrim said:More copying of whatever is most successful is not what the genre needs.
Speaking of copying, when is a developer of high fantasy style MMOs going to ever grow the balls to NOT put in the same boring races we see in every damn MMO? Dwarves, Elves..Humans. FFS, put in some creative thought and give us all new races/species for once. That way you can stop the ever present "but dwarves in this game or that book was like this so these should be just like that too" that shows up. Heck its been all over these forums for several of the races.
I don't find anything wrong with existing races. Not against new races either, accept maybe Manbearpig and humanioid rats.
I would love to see unique classes or Prestige Classes. Such as a Fractal Caster, who uses chaos mathematics to unlock conjure forces of the Universe. Who writes their equations(spells) directly upon the Ether using Holographic Ether tablet.
I would agree that the Classic MMO is dead. Maybe we should call them First Generation MMOs.
First Generation MMOs focused on the technical challenges of bringing players from all over the world to the same game space (no small feat in the mid to late 90s). The driving goal was to move the pen and paper RPG gaming experience into the digital realm where players could adventure on demand without someone being stuck as Dungeon Master (I have spent my share of time on the backside of the DM screen when I really wanted to be a player).
First generation MMOs and their design were heavily constrained by the limits of the hardware and software available to the mainstream public at the time. They had to deal with things like “can this even render on a consumers PC” not “Will this drop the FPS below 60 frames in 4k max resolution and settings on the current $1000 card”. They had to deal with data storage so players needed to be restrict on how many items they could have. They had a limit on how large the zones could be based on file size. Scripting was relatively primitive in that all player interactions needed to be hard coded and any variation on the target input would fail to trigger the script.
Overall each of the First Generation MMOs (UO, EQ1, DAoC, SWG, and even Runequest) brought innovations while concurring the basic challenges inherent in creating an MMO world. Not all had the same level of player experience but many had feature (intended or accidental) that we remember fondly but would not put up with in a new MMO. Most of the above MMOs collapsed because they ran into a hard limitation on how far the original programing and hardware could evolve. (Everquest continuing to run in a limited capacity is sort of a freak of nature and is nowhere close to the original design)
I would even argue that the world of the 2nd Generation MMOs is currently Dieing.
After the First Generation of MMOs pioneered the genera the original publishers wanted to iterate on their learnings and new publishers saw the possibilities of their IP in the new game space. Thus EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, a silly number of Eastern Market MMOs I can’t keep track of, Wildstar, DDO, SWKOTOR, Warhammer Online, culminating with ESO was born. This new generation no longer had to handle the same technological limitations so they were able to throw new and fundamentally advanced graphics, more exciting and interactive combat, and larger worlds with ever taller towers of content to climb.
The design focus shifted from the wonder of adventuring to the excitement of the experience. It may seem subtle change of focus but it has driven a lot of the issues that have caused the genera to feel stale. Too much of a good thing is often a bad thing. The increased focus on the excitement of the experience drastically upped the pace of interaction with the world which in turn drives an increased rate of consumption of content. To keep the excitement factor going ever increasing rewards must be provided and down time must be minimized to the point it is actually fairly easy to get mentally fatigued with a game over time.
Effectively all the MMOs that are about rushing to end game and constantly challenging progression content are the same game, or at least the same play experience. Each game may have its own IP both in world lore and skills sets but ultimately they are very similar. Ultimately the excitement of the content race fades and you realize you are just a hamster on a wheel going round and round. This in a nut shell is the current MMO landscape, and its days are numbered.
We are currently seeing the rise of the third generation of MMOs, The Niche Itch. Many people have specific goals they are wanting out of their gaming experience and will deal with lesser quality secondary features in order to scratch their itch.
The PVP nuts have found their fix in the Battle Royal games, which sadly have become massively profitable and so the money focused publishers are zeroing in on this style. Camelot Unchained appears to be heading in the direction of a PVP game with real depth and player buy in, only time will tell if the substance of an MMO can catch the interest of the console kiddies that feed the BR cash cows.
The Sandboxers are looking towards the games that promise massive free form exploration and unlimited choices. The fact that No Man’s Sky even exists after its horrible launch is a testament to how desperately sandboxers are looking for their holy grail. Star Citizen, Life is Feudal and the player to player interactive portions of Elite Dangerous have all promised a world of choice surround by an utter failure of execution. Small countries could be bought with the funding dumped into Star Citizen, Life is Feudal has a terrible interface and grinding experience and Elite just cannot seem to tie a giant universe together with a world where players can mutually exist.
The Throwbacks are the third major Niche. While the advances of the Second Generation of MMOs ramped up the excitement it killed off the feeling of achievement. Pantheon and WoW Classic are both examples of 3rd Gen Throwback titles. The intent and nitch of each of these is to return to a level playing field where success is hard earned and achievements are long felt. With these slower rewards come slower game pacing which in turn begs for the gaps of time to be filled. In between the gaps of excitement community happens and the more group focused the content is and the less that can be soloed the more vital community is to success. It remains to be seen how well the Throwback Nitch will do but if costs can be controlled I think there is plenty of space to keep the right gamers interested for the long haul.
The real question though is where will the MMO space go in the future? It may seem premature to speak of the 3rd Gen MMOs already in the past tense as many of them are not even officially released but sadly they are not bringing anything new to the gaming experience. They are just trying to iterate on successfully models to make a product that consumers want, and ultimately that is just good business.
What new style of massively multiplayer gaming experience can we hope to see in the future? To that we don’t really need to look to far out into industry to see real possibilities. Companies like Amazon and Google are neck deep in machine learning and predictive add selection. Those same companies and many others are pushing the boundary of AI to both horrible and fascinating results though we are long way from Data from Star Trek TNG. The Virtual Reality space is being expanded in both the gaming and production spaces though the technology is also still suffering from massive growing pains and hardware limitations. Finally there are even Brainwave reading studies through advanced medical and department of defense companies that are pushing the boundaries of what could be considered possible human input methods, and in the case of Battelle’s NeuroLife new outputs from machine to humans.
While not all of these technologies are remotely ready for gaming application some of them are. A game world that can learn to interpret player voice commands or dialectic typing through machine learning could result in NPC interactions that feel more fluid and those same dialects could be applied to the NPCs (How many ranks do you have in Appalachion?) Those same NPCs could look at what type of quests you have completed and how long it took you to finish it relative to the difficultly to know what type of quests you enjoy and will generate a user specific quest. Advancements in machine learning can also teach procedurally generated content to be better and better to the point that the difference between hand crafted zones and on demand temporary mini zones could be indistinguishable. Even the automated car industry could be sources of data to drive NPC life cycles to make them virtually indistinguishable from living players.
It is no leap of logic to see how great VR could be for the action style Gaming or simulated Education environment. It will be hard to pair slow paced combat with VR reactions but not every application is fit for every technology. Until the Brainwave reading companies map the human mind enough to know with very little training what the player wants to do many of the VR player input control devices are going to be very clunky and cumbersome. Figuring out how to stimulate the brain in turn to mimic the 5 senses without external devices such as goggles, feedback suits, smell towers, speakers and some awkward mouth pieces would almost constitute the next step in Human societal evolution not to mention our own little personal SAO hell.
I believe we will continue to see evolutions in what gaming experiences are available and some of those will be in the Massively Multiplayer segment, some will still be RPGs, and some will be simulation sandboxes. Combining the three into one will always be a monumental task that can become a cash cow for the ages or lead to chapter 11 bankruptcy for even the most cash heavy companies. Here is hoping Pantheon succeeds in its Niche, less so to see the game exist then to see the people who have poured their hearts into the creation of the game find fulfillment in their task.
We have a few posts here arguing that MMOs too often copy what has been successful - one example being the endless varients of elves, dwarves etc. This is, of course, both self-evidently true and inevitable. Why would a new MMO ignore things players have proven that they like and copy things they have proven that they dislike?
That Pantheon will be a failure at worst and useless at best if it simply copies current MMOs is a given - at least in this community.
My view has always been - contrary to that of some purists that want essentially no "quality of life" features - that the goal for Pantheon should be twofold.
Firstly it should have enough "old school" features that it is a major change from current MMOs. Without this - why even bother? Giving examples would be counterproductive since we have so many differing opinions on what "old school" means. But we want a game that is significantly different from any major current MMO and that is the spiritual successor to Vanguard and EQ in important respects not just a bit. Very few of us would argue against this point.
Secondly, and more controversially, to the extent it can do so without sacrificing compliance with the first goal, Pantheon should have features from "modern" MMOs that players have proven that they like. The goal is *not* to have as small a player base as possible. The aim is to have as *large* a player base as possible without sacrificing goal one. If adding five "quality of life" features drives away a thousand purists but attracts a hundred thousand more flexible players we have won. As long as those five features do not undercut the "spiritual successor" objective too much.
So on the quote from Bazgrim that we do not need more copying of what has been successful - let me take the liberty of changing one letter and I fully agree. We do not need *mere* copying of what has been successful. We need a truly difficult thing to accomplish - just the right mix of copying things that have proven popular combined with copying enough old school elements whether popular or not that Pantheon is indeed a worthy successor to EQ and Vanguard.
Races has been discussed in this thread. We want some of the standard races for a duality of reasons. One - they were in EQ and Vanguard and make veterans of those games more comfortable. And those veterans are our base of support. Two - the wider world is used to them - give new players trying us out something they are comfortable with.
But the lifeblood of any MMO is also change and surprise and not being *too* much the same as previous games. Not even too much the same as EQ and Vanguard. So we need some new races as well. Ideally some that aren't too close to what other games have had. We do not need panda-people or bull-people a great deal. Or at all. We need a mix of old and familiar with new and different to give the players a nice mix.
Vandraad said:Bazgrim said:More copying of whatever is most successful is not what the genre needs.
Speaking of copying, when is a developer of high fantasy style MMOs going to ever grow the balls to NOT put in the same boring races we see in every damn MMO? Dwarves, Elves..Humans. FFS, put in some creative thought and give us all new races/species for once. That way you can stop the ever present "but dwarves in this game or that book was like this so these should be just like that too" that shows up. Heck its been all over these forums for several of the races.
Do you not think the Archai and Skar are unique enough? Or Pantheon's take on ethereal Gnomes and Dwarves made out of ice?
This is the way i see how mmo have gone:
So they have come from a grind/social/adventure/experience to what we have now as a Gring/nonsocial/30min quick/two weeks im bored.. (my version as i will explain)
It seems that as the years moved on ... prices raised (this is me being a Realist sadly) and free time become less and less, which pushes the gaming side into making things faster or easier to experience the game. Years ago people had time.. could support themselves or their family (generally speaking) with a single 40hr job (*per adult) were now.. unless you have that amazing job, people are having to work more.. which takes over free time because most of us wont give up family time if we have a choice. (family is important). This is just a very very very minor part of how things have changed. They degree of people being called casual or hardcore really should be a thing of the past... just because one person has the time doesnt make them worse.. (not going to give examples, should be obvious). Personally i think the "First Gen" mmo's are still much wanted, but realisticly, most just dont have the time in todays age. Making a game that can really help with this (using the caravan system is a fantastic start ) can make jumping in easier and not feel like your losing something. Ultimatly, really comes down to that personal choice like everything in life. and there will always be those that will be slower due to RL contraints, and those that will beat everything in 1 week (not really) and complain that they have nothing to do. Some are endgamers, others are the Journey, and most of a form of both. the way it is. I think Classic WoW (OMG I SAID IT) is actually going to do good as in a way people who play it will see and even possibly bring in new generations to it, and by proxy when they get to the end of that, Pantheon will be the Fresh feel that they are warmed up to. Yes i know the games are different but the difficulty will be simular IMO. Anyways im rambling and dont have a clue!!!! the Dark Myr (kinda elf like but love the twist) are fresh for me .. and Haflings for the first time (for me) actually feel like they should (and Look too thus far)
Keep up Ya'll's Progress guys, doing great and Looking Good during every step!!!
I disagree with saying that prices are higher to game then back in 1999, (most nickle and dime you to death the amounts are far greater then any sub . ( mighty cheap even now ) . I work just has hard now as I did in 1999 . I have just as much time as I did back then . (I'd say more ).
I personally feel the biggest issue is society and instant gradification , PTW, BTW .. Ect .. Paying a subscription does alleviate some of those things . everyone is equal , everyone can achieve the same things .. It is what you put into it .. by that I don't mean CASH . Time , Effort , learning your class and abilities . no one is better unless they put the effort into it .
paying even a $24.99 sub is cheap form of intertainment . if they still are thinking $ 14.99 or $19.99 then they should think again . ( They are selling themselves short ) .
I paid those prices years ago .
Mom always said you pay for what you get .
Totally agree with most of that. Its not more expesive to game, its more expensive to live. Prices on common living stuff goes up and wages dont.. i personally had to work 2 different jobs for a few years just to meet rent.. this could also be on where one lives.. just the way it is. I still live bare bones just to get by having one job.. helps that i live with a roomate so rent between us is easier. but i Digress, Totally agree on the effert one puts into a game. =P
Venickt said:Totally agree with most of that. Its not more expesive to game, its more expensive to live. Prices on common living stuff goes up and wages dont.. i personally had to work 2 different jobs for a few years just to meet rent.. this could also be on where one lives.. just the way it is. I still live bare bones just to get by having one job.. helps that i live with a roomate so rent between us is easier. but i Digress, Totally agree on the effert one puts into a game. =P
You too are correct , wages have not increased :( . I feel your pain :(
That is why paying a sub is the way to make it better for even you . ( no nickles and dimes going out for every single thing in a game ) . You can play as much as your able to or how little you want to .
We will all be better off in the long run ..
As for the actual story .. EQ to this day still holds over 1000 subs on tlp server alone . TLP hmm makes one wonder why ?
First off The reason Eq is still going on 20 years later is because it was harder it did take longer .. Yes people maxed pretty fast even then ( that was not the norm ) . Even those who maxed had so many things to do to see to expierence . ( thats what kept them still playing to this day 20 years later ) .
Maybe its true people don't have the time to game . ( my guess its not the time but the instant gratifcation ) . I'm certain they are still playing something , somewhere on some device ! lol
Shea said:Venickt said:Totally agree with most of that. Its not more expesive to game, its more expensive to live. Prices on common living stuff goes up and wages dont.. i personally had to work 2 different jobs for a few years just to meet rent.. this could also be on where one lives.. just the way it is. I still live bare bones just to get by having one job.. helps that i live with a roomate so rent between us is easier. but i Digress, Totally agree on the effert one puts into a game. =P
You too are correct , wages have not increased :( . I feel your pain :(
That is why paying a sub is the way to make it better for even you . ( no nickles and dimes going out for every single thing in a game ) . You can play as much as your able to or how little you want to .
We will all be better off in the long run ..
As for the actual story .. EQ to this day still holds over 1000 subs on tlp server alone . TLP hmm makes one wonder why ?
First off The reason Eq is still going on 20 years later is because it was harder it did take longer .. Yes people maxed pretty fast even then ( that was not the norm ) . Even those who maxed had so many things to do to see to expierence . ( thats what kept them still playing to this day 20 years later ) .
Maybe its true people don't have the time to game . ( my guess its not the time but the instant gratifcation ) . I'm certain they are still playing something , somewhere on some device ! lol
It seems to be a generational thing also, as much as I hate to stereotype things like that. But I see those that were kids during early EQ being the ones claiming "no time for gaming now because they have life's, family's, jobs, etc"
When the reality of it is I was 40 when EQ came out, I had a full time job including tons of overtime, three preteen kids, and a wife that didn't play that needed attention as well. And I still got talked into starting/ leading a guild, doing my epic, logging in for at least an hour or so a day to check on the guild. The one thing I didn't do was think I needed to compete with everyone else on the server. rush to max and think I HAD to have BIS in everything.
My guess is with you
"its not the time but the instant gratifcation"
Bazgrim said:Vandraad said:Bazgrim said:The amount riding on the potential success of Pantheon can't be understated imo.
More MMO developers are realizing, have realized actually, that a niche game that attracts a very specific audience is more stable in the long term than a game that tries to attract, and keep, everyone. Crowfall is a niche game, as is Camelot Unchained, as is EVE Online, etc. Regardless of how much of a marketshare Pantheon captures, for those that will never see any fault in the game inspite of their obviousness, it will be successful enough for them. Whether that quantity of players keep the game financially viable is another question.
That's exactly what I mean. If Pantheon is commercially successful, it is a big piece of the puzzle to show more companies that providing high quality games for a targeted audience is the way to go. At this point, it doesn't have to be a blockbuster hit just to prove a point to the world that MMO's are still viable and can still be very enjoyable if done right. That will encourage a more positive paradigm than we've seen in a long time. More copying of whatever is most successful is not what the genre needs.
It's a 'funny' realisation, but for us old-timers (not giving away my age, but I could retire soon) when we were younger and the games industry was still catering to, what I would consider, a 'growing hobbiest scene' *all* games were for a 'targeted' audience. A niche, simply because there weren't that many home computer (or console) gamers out there.
We were geeks and weirdos and, mostly, actually liked it that way.
You'd go to a forum and be pretty much guaranteed a group of like-minded individuals all wanting to discuss your shared hobby (not how forums often feel these days!).
It seems obvious to me that 'things' (not just computer games) can be successful aimed at a particular audience. As long as that audience is a 'certain size', then it's best to do that, if you want to ensure success.
Unfortunately, 'big business' now seems to think that a 'target audience' should be 'everyone'. Market share and profit is the guiding light. The bigger the better no matter what. Even in a franchise that is hugely successful (totally dominating a particular audience) they appear to need to expand to a 'mass' audience even if it requires changing the product such that the original audience is upset.
I'm actually seeing just that (in am in the forums) in the Battlefield franchise currently. Previously excelling in the 'shooter' genre because it had coop, squad, team elements and combined arms that the others didn't. That was what made is different and best for it's fans. It's latest version downplays the combined arms, makes 'solo' tactics more succesful and threw in a Battle Royale mode because, hey, Fortnite has a huge audience, right?! Ugh. Add in a Live Service model and many Franchise fans are in mourning.
To get back to the OP: The MMORPG genre is not 'dead' or 'dying' but I think it has seen developers attempt to target the mass audience. It is, in fact, a lack of targeting. They have abandoned a lot of what defined the genre in an attempt to bring in those that were turned off by it. They added lots of stuff to the detriment of the genre that those people might like.
I blame a lot on Blizzard, because they took their classic product which was wildly successful and not too far from an old school MMORPG at its inception (I played it a lot) and slowly changed it into something else, but because it retained a large player base, all other MMORPG producers thought "That must be what the fans want then!".
Maybe some did. Maybe some were ok with it. More likely a 'new' set of fans slowly bought into the 'new' style genre. A lot of old players stuck with it because they were invested. Many, like me, moved on to disappointment after disappointment, because all the others were attempting to a greater or lesser degree to follow the 'successful' WoW pattern.
WoW is going back to classic. There's a reason. We *can* return to what we might call 'old-school' genre ideals and truths. This is turning into a huge post...
Challenge: It must actually be difficult and you must accept regular death and failure with consequences. It's an 'old-school' thing that nothing worth having is easy and adversity builds character and bonds with other.
Cooperation: Partly from the difficulty, but partly by design and from inter-player synergy actually being fun, you must need other players. It's an old-school thing that if something is fun, it's more fun with others.
Immersion: I must be able to suspend my disbelief and be transported to another world. Old-school means avoiding pop-culture references and neon pink chainmail bikinis.
Open World: You must be able to have an adventure. I love well written lore and stories but players mustn't be pushed around on rails to experience it. Old-school role-playing always involved freedom.
Progression: You must feel you are making meaningful progress. Leveling up must be a great feeling! It was fundamental to old-school RPGs to feel you were developing as a character.
Persistence: You must feel like you're in a real, living world. Old-school RPGs were a whole world (or worlds!) (or felt like they were) and that world was effected by you and had effect on you. It should feel like a home you are truly part of.
I could go on, but that's probably the important stuff. I think VR is making all the right noises that Pantheon should address and excel all these concerns. To me that means that, yes, it *is* bringing back 'old-school' MMORPGs. Will that inspire the genre? Maybe. I hope so. No harm in competition.
The thing is, the genre is wider than it was and the point is, can the 'old-school' survive *alongside* the themepark? The answer is: Of course! It can thrive. Companies like VR just need to be wise enough to realise that you don't have to target 'everyone' to be a success.
I hope EA realise that they can bring Battlefield back to it's franchise 'old-school' roots, too...
I also hope MacDonalds bring back the MacRib...
To respond to the instant gratification points.
In the same way some people like 'easy listening' music when they get home from work: they don't want to be 'challenged' by something, they want to be entertained and soothed. But that's not *all* they like. That doesn't define them. I suppose it may well be easy to say "those damned millenials only like trash reality TV. That's why that's all there seems to be on TV nowadays", but we know it's not true.
I have a list of great critically acclaimed series and films I am keen to watch but sometimes all I want is to half-watch episodes of Modern Family or something easy to consume while I wind down and chat.
The problem with the genre at the moment is, there is no choice for those that *want* to be challenged and to be absorbed and to band together over. MMORPGs are easy and frivolous and can be mostly soloed.
I desperately want the choice back. I might well play WoW Classic *and* Pantheon when they are both around, depending on my mood. I really would love the choice.
Shea said:I disagree with saying that prices are higher to game then back in 1999, (most nickle and dime you to death the amounts are far greater then any sub . ( mighty cheap even now ) . I work just has hard now as I did in 1999 . I have just as much time as I did back then . (I'd say more ).
I personally feel the biggest issue is society and instant gradification , PTW, BTW .. Ect .. Paying a subscription does alleviate some of those things . everyone is equal , everyone can achieve the same things .. It is what you put into it .. by that I don't mean CASH . Time , Effort , learning your class and abilities . no one is better unless they put the effort into it .
paying even a $24.99 sub is cheap form of intertainment . if they still are thinking $ 14.99 or $19.99 then they should think again . ( They are selling themselves short ) .
I paid those prices years ago .
Mom always said you pay for what you get .
now that i'm reading it, i disagree with your disagreement? eh w.e prices were higher in 1999 if you factor inflation. a sub was 15 dollars then. with 1 dollar you could by a gallon of gas. a sub now is 15 dollars and gas is now 3 dollars a gallon.
i like the bit you pay for what you get but my daddy was telling me that XD i have to constantly tell myself not to be cheap with tools or things that will make me money.
Vandraad said:Taking into account the average rate of inflation of 2.1%, the $14.99 in 1999 would, today, be $23.00. That is what VR should be charging for a monthly subscription.
watch our government pass a law where we are taxed digital services too. that would be 25 dollars XD where i'm from. then they'll say mmos are a detrimental to society just like alcohol or cigarettes and tax us an additional 20% for mental health and well being >.> total cost would be 30 dollars.
Bazgrim said:Vandraad said:Bazgrim said:More copying of whatever is most successful is not what the genre needs.
Speaking of copying, when is a developer of high fantasy style MMOs going to ever grow the balls to NOT put in the same boring races we see in every damn MMO? Dwarves, Elves..Humans. FFS, put in some creative thought and give us all new races/species for once. That way you can stop the ever present "but dwarves in this game or that book was like this so these should be just like that too" that shows up. Heck its been all over these forums for several of the races.
Do you not think the Archai and Skar are unique enough? Or Pantheon's take on ethereal Gnomes and Dwarves made out of ice?
Human, Elves, Halfings, Dwarves, Ogres. A couple look different but are still pretty much the same. Dwarves are short, living underground. Ogres are big, brutish and warlike. Humans are the generic race. Halfings are still the small, agile, playful race. Just once I want the races to be all new.
Vandraad said:Taking into account the average rate of inflation of 2.1%, the $14.99 in 1999 would, today, be $23.00. That is what VR should be charging for a monthly subscription.
I would disagree with that. Economies of scale and other factors played heavily into the 1999 price. Simply increasing the price by inflation would assume all other factors are equal which is clearly not the case.
Caine said:Who owns the rights to Vanguard? (don't say Day Break, I am lifetime banning them) is Vanguard dead dead dead, or could it ever be rebooted?
It is in fact DayBreak that owns the rights. There is however an emulator going on and they are reconstructing the game. They have a lot done so far, it's playable to an extent. You can't log in and do every quest that was available in the game yet, but there is enough meat there to get you to 20-30. They don't have a lot of man power working on it so it's extremely slow.
Vanguard got such a bad rap when it launched, and rightfully so. I have always felt that if they took the game the way it was when it shut down and renamed it, repackaged it in stores, and relaunched it they would have themselves a market. I miss that game more than I do EQ honestly. In the end it was polished pretty good. Believe it or not SoE did a lot of good for that game up to the end. It had the best graphics, best combat system, crafting system, harvesting system, raiding was very challenging, classes were very balanced.
That being said and getting back to topic, I don't the the MMO industry is dead. I just think it's very very hard to create something so big with such small resources that it takes to make a decent profit. You can't have a star studded team like Curt Schilling did with 38 Studios, you will go bankrupt before you hit Alpha. And you can't have a really small team because there is just too much work to do for a few people.
I think some of the problem is too that the MMORPG market is so divided. Even on these forums amongst old school players there is such a disagreement about what the game should have. Some want it easier, faster paced. Some want it more challenging and more like EQ. Some want neat features, and others want it simple. I can't imagine all the things going through the minds of the developers. Do I do this or am I going to lose half my player base, should I do that and make 10% angry and hopefully gain 20% more players. VR has done well sticking to their guns and making their game I think. But it has to be hard not to listen to the masses when they preach.
Sometimes if you get the right players to play the others will follow. There is a lot of people out there who want to play the game everyone else is playing. I felt like WoW captured that the best unfortunately. Everyone started playing it because the people they used to game with in EQ were playing WoW. You get a large number of people playing and it just balloons from there because of that. I have a list of e-mails and facebook friends that play MMO's probably 40-50 people. I will be telling them about Pantheon and trying to get them engaged in it.
And lastly one factor that matters as well is the resources needed to play the game. WoW didn't require near the computer that Vanguard did. Even people with limited funds could play WoW, they couldn't play Vanguard without a $4,000 machine at the time it launched.
Vandraad said:Human, Elves, Halfings, Dwarves, Ogres. A couple look different but are still pretty much the same. Dwarves are short, living underground. Ogres are big, brutish and warlike. Humans are the generic race. Halfings are still the small, agile, playful race. Just once I want the races to be all new.
Ogres aren't really a "classic RPG race" honestly.
That leaves us with elves, halflings, dwarves and humans.
Nagasakee said:Is "Nitch" supposed to represent "niche"?
And the McRib is the tastiest fake, poisoned meat ever created, leave it be :)
*sigh* Yes, yes it was. My writing disability manifests as a form of phonetic spelling which is unfortunately paired with an Ohioan accent/mispronunciation. So if the word sounds phonetically the same read out loud as what I hear in my head then I almost always miss it.
If you spotted that though thanks for reading.
MMOs are a complicated issue because it never just one thing. When technology evovled into better computers servers, networks and interfaces, innovation took us down some paths of many possible paths. Sandbox virtual worlds focused social gameplay did not get a second or third pass by innovation. Bungie is in the news right now because their teams are getting tired and can not sustain the content creation pace.
Worlds looked better, characters looked better, but gameplay never got any better, only faster, and for the most part less meaningful.
Sandbox virtual worlds focused social gameplay needs innovation when the core gameplay and pace is not changed. This would mitigate the demand for constant content creation. Players are also content.
Maybe that's why Pantheon is being deveoloped and designed very methodically. Hopefully they are carefully innovating in new ways that breath life into the world, all the while keeping the slower social pace that many love from the old school MMOs.