Syrif said:@Darch I imagine Dark Myr can’t play a Paladin probably because it does not fit with that race, the lore, and quests that VR are currently creating. I‘d imagine it’s quite a bit of work and design.
"Unique" quest design would actually make the most sense to me (because it would actually take work). Racial lore can be contested by using class descriptions (as some of us have been pointing out), and that very reasoning has led to race/class matrix changes in the past because it simply made sense. I was only a tester for Sony, but I would imagine that moving the location of an NPC or having duplicated quest context on a different NPC would take a couple of hours of actual work if started before the game goes into production. They are likely designing generic quests for humans and will then later make small changes to apply the same quests in other regions. The perception quest "origins" will likely be slightly different by region, but they will likely share a majority of the chains in dungeons or out in the wild (independent of a character's starting area).
oneADseven said:At the expense of players being able to achieve distinctiveness amongst themselves. It's a game rail, plain and simple. Some schools require children to wear identical uniforms. Many occupations do the same. Open-World MMORPG's are supposed to cultivate self-expression rather than dictate dress code.
If Pantheon is similar to other mmorpg’s that Brad & Team have developed, then you will see an abundance of gear to choose from. :) I don’t see dress code being a problem in Pantheon - I wouldn’t worry about it.
oneADseven said:stellarmind said:is a design choice by the creator to achieve distinctiveness between the races.
At the expense of players being able to achieve distinctiveness amongst themselves. It's a game rail, plain and simple. Some schools require children to wear identical uniforms. Many occupations do the same. Open-World MMORPG's are supposed to cultivate self-expression rather than dictate dress code.
i agree, but it's vr's world not ours. to be clear, i'm not for or against all/all. if the lore was different which supports a free for all society without predertermined factors, you can sell me on the all/all. the way the lore currently is, cultures and physicalogical differences are estbalished. sorry for spelling i'm eating some fat juicy ribs. (edit- what i'm saying is if you can sell me the story, you can sell me the design)
personally i'd prefer my mmo experience for me to feel like i'm just a pleb and the real special ppl that change the world are npcs. i've said this before, but i don't want every swinging... cucumber to be dragonborn, master of the 9th realm, ruler of the 13 seas, saviour of the heavens. it just cheapens the feeling. i'd rather be a loser and know that i am so that when i do something really amazing, i know it.
oneADseven said:stellarmind said:is a design choice by the creator to achieve distinctiveness between the races.
At the expense of players being able to achieve distinctiveness amongst themselves. It's a game rail, plain and simple. Some schools require children to wear identical uniforms. Many occupations do the same. Open-World MMORPG's are supposed to cultivate self-expression rather than dictate dress code.
that is not correct and could be argued otherwise
an elf could be a ranger and it differs from the ogres in that, maybe an ogre could be DL and they would be deferred from the elves in that
which could not happen with all / all (I assume you are trying to argue in favor of all / all)
Elki said:oneADseven said:stellarmind said:is a design choice by the creator to achieve distinctiveness between the races.
At the expense of players being able to achieve distinctiveness amongst themselves. It's a game rail, plain and simple. Some schools require children to wear identical uniforms. Many occupations do the same. Open-World MMORPG's are supposed to cultivate self-expression rather than dictate dress code.
that is not correct and could be argued otherwise
an elf could be a ranger and it differs from the ogres in that, maybe an ogre could be DL and they would be deferred from the elves in that
which could not happen with all / all (I assume you are trying to argue in favor of all / all)
187 is a believer in true open world mmo experience and i'd agree if the lore supported it for pantheon O.o
stellarmind said:187 is a believer in true open world mmo experience and i'd agree if the lore supported it for pantheon O.o
This isn't entirely accurate. One of the main challenges of building an open-world MMO is balancing the freedom of players against the consequences of their potential actions. There are several topics where I am very much "Pro Game > World" -- I evaluate each restriction/freedom on their own merits and how they stack up against the established game tenets. I'm disappointed that VR was willing to pull the trigger on a restriction that governs race/class choice while the destructive consequences of other "freedoms" have been preserved. A few examples:
Multi-boxing
Zerging
Intentional Training
Multi-boxing is antithetical to the majority of game tenets but players are free to engage in that sort of thing if they desire. The allowance of zerging would be antithetical to the majority of game tenets but there hasn't been any firm commitment that this behavior would be restricted. Intentional training is a well-known source of griefing in open world games but they are purposely choosing to allow it. Of those three topics, I'm personally okay with their decision to build a world that doesn't artificially restrict training. As long as they have official rules in place, and a GM team that will be equipped to punish players for bad behavior, I think it's reasonable to choose freedom over restriction. I'm not a fan of NPC's that "reset" and ignore players on their way back. That sort of mechanic has been exploited to death and I'd rather not see it in Pantheon.
In a nutshell ... I think these restrictions on race/class are a rather egregious over-reaction to the potential "harm" that they could actually cause. In the end, all of that stuff is subjective anyway, and there is no form of consistency. A lack of consistency in the logic that governs these restrictions does more harm than good when it comes to my immersion. Skar couldn't possibly embody the traits of being a Paladin but they can go off on a rampage against undead in a way that would make most paladins jealous. Skar couldn't possibly embody the traits of being a Paladin but they can become best friends with one, marry one, and be willing to die for one.
If we're going to use lore to restrict something as harmless as self-expression (as it relates to roleplaying a character identity) then I sure as hell hope that the Pantheon of Terminus restricts players from the temptations of zerging. If we're going to use lore to preserve the tradition of racial essentialism in fantasy then I sure as hell hope that we also use it to preserve other things that are arguably (certainly?) much more important ... like risk vs reward, cooperative play, player interdependence, meaningful accomplishments, challenging content, etc.
There are plenty of players who would enjoy the game "more" if they were free to play whatever race/class they choose. Too bad for them. There are plenty of players who would enjoy the game "more" if they are free to zerg and multi-box. They are salivating at the chops until further notice. When I reflect on what all of that means for the "big picture" it seems like a lot of players with good intentions are having their ability to "enjoy responsibly" artificially restricted ... while players with bad intentions (this is subjective ... but let's consider the tenets as sacred) are jumping for joy.
oneADseven said:stellarmind said:187 is a believer in true open world mmo experience and i'd agree if the lore supported it for pantheon O.o
This isn't entirely accurate. One of the main challenges of building an open-world MMO is balancing the freedom of players against the consequences of their potential actions. There are several topics where I am very much "Pro Game > World" -- I evaluate each restriction/freedom on their own merits and how they stack up against the established game tenets. I'm disappointed that VR was willing to pull the trigger on a restriction that governs race/class choice while the destructive consequences of other "freedoms" have been preserved. A few examples:
Multi-boxing
Zerging
Intentional Training
Multi-boxing is antithetical to the majority of game tenets but players are free to engage in that sort of thing if they desire. The allowance of zerging would be antithetical to the majority of game tenets but there hasn't been any firm commitment that this behavior would be restricted. Intentional training is a well-known source of griefing in open world games but they are purposely choosing to allow it. Of those three topics, I'm personally okay with their decision to build a world that doesn't artificially restrict training. As long as they have official rules in place, and a GM team that will be equipped to punish players for bad behavior, I think it's reasonable to choose freedom over restriction. I'm not a fan of NPC's that "reset" and ignore players on their way back. That sort of mechanic has been exploited to death and I'd rather not see it in Pantheon.
In a nutshell ... I think these restrictions on race/class are a rather egregious over-reaction to the potential "harm" that they could actually cause. In the end, all of that stuff is subjective anyway, and there is no form of consistency. A lack of consistency in the logic that governs these restrictions does more harm than good when it comes to my immersion. Skar couldn't possibly embody the traits of being a Paladin but they can go off on a rampage against undead in a way that would make most paladins jealous. Skar couldn't possibly embody the traits of being a Paladin but they can become best friends with one, marry one, and be willing to die for one.
If we're going to use lore to restrict something as harmless as self-expression (as it relates to roleplaying a character identity) then I sure as hell hope that the Pantheon of Terminus restricts players from the temptations of zerging. If we're going to use lore to preserve the tradition of racial essentialism in fantasy then I sure as hell hope that we also use it to preserve other things that are arguably (certainly?) much more important ... like risk vs reward, cooperative play, player interdependence, meaningful accomplishments, challenging content, etc.
There are plenty of players who would enjoy the game "more" if they were free to play whatever race/class they choose. Too bad for them. There are plenty of players who would enjoy the game "more" if they are free to zerg and multi-box. They are salivating at the chops until further notice. When I reflect on what all of that means for the "big picture" it seems like a lot of players with good intentions are having their ability to "enjoy responsibly" artificially restricted ... while players with bad intentions (this is subjective ... but let's consider the tenets as sacred) are jumping for joy.
all you have to do is play on a pvp server 187 and your 3 points will dissappear into the ether XD
187 - I don’t think racial capabilities, traits, and differences have much to do with “freedom.” The different races are what they are. Ogres are incapable of the arcane and Skar can grow claws. It’s just how it is. The variations come from racial differences and lore. Just my two copper pieces :)
(As for multi-boxing, zerging, and training; I think it‘s fair to say that’s pretty far off topic).
Syrif said:187 - I don’t think racial capabilities, traits, and differences have much to do with “freedom.” The different races are what they are. Ogres are incapable of the arcane and Skar can grow claws. It’s just how it is. The variations come from racial differences. Just my two copper pieces :)
How does this even remotely make sense? Ogres were on Terminus 600 years before Halflings. Druids were gifted Hirode from Masae, the Halfling Ward. According to lore, 5/6 races didn't have Hirode until the halflings arrived. So the Halfling Ward gifted all druids Hirode, but the halflings, in particular, had to learn how to be druids from the previously landed races, right? It's not like they brought this "druidism" with them from their home planet if all existing druids used the same spells as halflings before they even got there, right? Gnomes are simply what they are ... but they summon the exact same arcamentals as Dark Myr, Elf, and Human. Every race is different, but somehow the 7 races that allow rogues all have access to the same unstable mixtures, pressurized flasks, sleeping powder, and flash bombs? Every race is different but whenever their classes overlap they share the same "passive traits." All races are super unique and different but Archai/Dark Myr/Elf/Halfling/Human/Ogre all have some sort of inherent "Storm Warden" trait that makes them more powerful when a storm is nearby.
This could go on and on and on and on and on to show you how ridiculous it is to suggest that races "are simply what they are." If we're going to be realistic about this then the final version of lore at launch should include a story that suggests that each "new arrival" learned how to be whatever classes they have available from the previous races that landed before them. Either that ... or we should truly believe that Gnomes were summoning the same Undine/Zephyr/Fury/Titan pets on Stormona that the existing races were using on Terminus before the Gnomes landed there. Interesting things to think about ... who knows?
Syrif said:(As for multi-boxing, zerging, and training; I think it‘s fair to say that’s pretty far off topic).
Context is important.
So the newsletter gave you prefect examples of why they can't be certain classes, and than you flip it on its head and say it's possible because you want it to be possible.......didn't we just get done with this whole situation and have kilsin come in again to reclarify it isnt going to change until more testing and hopefully it doesn't even change than. and not even 8 messages later you ignoring the lore yet again? Look we get it you want a all/all or less restrictive game, the thing is the devs don't and honestly I'm glad they are putting their foot down and saying no to it, it need to remain, just as you said ton of people were supporting pantheon well before the matrix came out so why would they leave if they don't change it especially sense it's been that way for what 2 years or more now.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:So the Halfling Ward gifted all druids Hirode, but the halflings, in particular, had to learn how to be druids from the previously landed races, right? It's not like they brought this "druidism" with them from their home planet if all existing druids used the same spells as halflings before they even got there, right?
Syrif said:
So your saying pantheon needs to be more restrictive? Cool we have something we start agreeing on now.
This post was edited by Cealtric at July 1, 2019 3:29 PM PDT
oneADseven said:stellarmind said:187 is a believer in true open world mmo experience and i'd agree if the lore supported it for pantheon O.o
This isn't entirely accurate. One of the main challenges of building an open-world MMO is balancing the freedom of players against the consequences of their potential actions. There are several topics where I am very much "Pro Game > World" -- I evaluate each restriction/freedom on their own merits and how they stack up against the established game tenets. I'm disappointed that VR was willing to pull the trigger on a restriction that governs race/class choice while the destructive consequences of other "freedoms" have been preserved. A few examples:
Multi-boxing
Zerging
Intentional Training
Multi-boxing is antithetical to the majority of game tenets but players are free to engage in that sort of thing if they desire. The allowance of zerging would be antithetical to the majority of game tenets but there hasn't been any firm commitment that this behavior would be restricted. Intentional training is a well-known source of griefing in open world games but they are purposely choosing to allow it. Of those three topics, I'm personally okay with their decision to build a world that doesn't artificially restrict training. As long as they have official rules in place, and a GM team that will be equipped to punish players for bad behavior, I think it's reasonable to choose freedom over restriction. I'm not a fan of NPC's that "reset" and ignore players on their way back. That sort of mechanic has been exploited to death and I'd rather not see it in Pantheon.
In a nutshell ... I think these restrictions on race/class are a rather egregious over-reaction to the potential "harm" that they could actually cause. In the end, all of that stuff is subjective anyway, and there is no form of consistency. A lack of consistency in the logic that governs these restrictions does more harm than good when it comes to my immersion. Skar couldn't possibly embody the traits of being a Paladin but they can go off on a rampage against undead in a way that would make most paladins jealous. Skar couldn't possibly embody the traits of being a Paladin but they can become best friends with one, marry one, and be willing to die for one.
If we're going to use lore to restrict something as harmless as self-expression (as it relates to roleplaying a character identity) then I sure as hell hope that the Pantheon of Terminus restricts players from the temptations of zerging. If we're going to use lore to preserve the tradition of racial essentialism in fantasy then I sure as hell hope that we also use it to preserve other things that are arguably (certainly?) much more important ... like risk vs reward, cooperative play, player interdependence, meaningful accomplishments, challenging content, etc.
There are plenty of players who would enjoy the game "more" if they were free to play whatever race/class they choose. Too bad for them. There are plenty of players who would enjoy the game "more" if they are free to zerg and multi-box. They are salivating at the chops until further notice. When I reflect on what all of that means for the "big picture" it seems like a lot of players with good intentions are having their ability to "enjoy responsibly" artificially restricted ... while players with bad intentions (this is subjective ... but let's consider the tenets as sacred) are jumping for joy.
then what is your point
criticize the positions of VR in questions that really do not matter
because in the questions that really matter to him (multi boxing zerging intentional training) they have not been attended to as much as you wanted ?
I'm saying that these restrictions were based on a "lore and practicality" based approach to determine whether or not things "make sense." A lot of this stuff doesn't make sense at all. According to human lore they can be all classes. Did the humans teach halflings how to be druids or is it the other way around? I'm not aware of any lore that suggests that the various races taught each other how to become "new classes" or harness their "passive traits." The existing lore has been used to justify the matrix countless times on this thread but there seems to be a huge missing link that reels it all in together.
The lore isn't in place to direct the way we play our character, but it does prevent us from going to certain cities and outpost at the beginning and things like this, your trying to prevent interactions between players and twisting lore to do it which one doesn't even sound like a good argument and you even know it, your just saying it because you're upset that it probably just isn't going to happen and again I hope it stays that way.
oneADseven said:I'm saying that these restrictions were based on a "lore and practicality" based approach to determine whether or not things "make sense." A lot of this stuff doesn't make sense at all. According to human lore they can be all classes. Did the humans teach halflings how to be druids or is it the other way around? I'm not aware of any lore that suggests that the various races taught each other how to become "new classes" or harness their "passive traits." The existing lore has been used to justify the matrix countless times on this thread but there seems to be a huge missing link that reels it all in together.
There's an awful lot we don't know yet, and I'd guess a lot we won't know until we can actually play. I've really enjoyed reading the lore and stories up to this point and am very much looking forward to more. Until then, though, I'm just going to trust it will all tie together and we'll all go 'Oh, NOW it makes sense!'
oneADseven said:I'm saying that these restrictions were based on a "lore and practicality" based approach to determine whether or not things "make sense." A lot of this stuff doesn't make sense at all. According to human lore they can be all classes. Did the humans teach halflings how to be druids or is it the other way around? I'm not aware of any lore that suggests that the various races taught each other how to become "new classes" or harness their "passive traits." The existing lore has been used to justify the matrix countless times on this thread but there seems to be a huge missing link that reels it all in together.
So again your saying it needs to be more rwtrictions than, because obviously if it doesn't state it than I guess no one should be druids but halflings if that's your argument, but obviously the devs wanted more than just one race to have the ability to be druids so they made it gaooen, your just getting worked up because the devs aren't folding on this subject and your trying to use everything that has nothing to do with it and trying to justify what you want to hapoen.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:187 - I don’t think racial capabilities, traits, and differences have much to do with “freedom.” The different races are what they are. Ogres are incapable of the arcane and Skar can grow claws. It’s just how it is. The variations come from racial differences and lore. Just my two copper pieces :)
How does this even remotely make sense? Ogres were on Terminus 600 years before Halflings. Druids were gifted Hirode from Masae, the Halfling Ward. According to lore, 5/6 races didn't have Hirode until the halflings arrived. So the Halfling Ward gifted all druids Hirode, but the halflings, in particular, had to learn how to be druids from the previously landed races, right? It's not like they brought this "druidism" with them from their home planet if all existing druids used the same spells as halflings before they even got there, right? Gnomes are simply what they are ... but they summon the exact same arcamentals as Dark Myr, Elf, and Human. Every race is different, but somehow the 7 races that allow rogues all have access to the same unstable mixtures, pressurized flasks, sleeping powder, and flash bombs? Every race is different but whenever their classes overlap they share the same "passive traits." All races are super unique and different but Archai/Dark Myr/Elf/Halfling/Human/Ogre all have some sort of inherent "Storm Warden" trait that makes them more powerful when a storm is nearby.
This could go on and on and on and on and on to show you how ridiculous it is to suggest that races "are simply what they are." If we're going to be realistic about this then the final version of lore at launch should include a story that suggests that each "new arrival" learned how to be whatever classes they have available from the previous races that landed before them. Either that ... or we should truly believe that Gnomes were summoning the same Undine/Zephyr/Fury/Titan pets on Stormona that the existing races were using on Terminus before the Gnomes landed there. Interesting things to think about ... who knows?
Syrif said:(As for multi-boxing, zerging, and training; I think it‘s fair to say that’s pretty far off topic).
Context is important.
Hmm I think you are looking too far into it honestly - a bit much. I imagine anything that VR is developing can potentially be ‘demanded for changes’ and ‘picked at piece by piece,’ but at the end of the day VR has said the variations come from lore & the races being different from each other. It makes sense. Anyway I’ll leave my thoughts at that, peace 1ad7.
@Syrif I think we both might want to leave this topic it seems like it's about to get locked down anyway, with people sending out misinformation and using scenarios that doesn't even involve the lore for the races or about the matrix in general so might be better safe than sorry.
oneADseven said:I'm saying that these restrictions were based on a "lore and practicality" based approach to determine whether or not things "make sense." A lot of this stuff doesn't make sense at all. According to human lore they can be all classes. Did the humans teach halflings how to be druids or is it the other way around? I'm not aware of any lore that suggests that the various races taught each other how to become "new classes" or harness their "passive traits." The existing lore has been used to justify the matrix countless times on this thread but there seems to be a huge missing link that reels it all in together.
is that we only know a small part of the lore but the creators that if they know it they say that it makes sense and supports it
that's why we use the argument that the lore supports it because that's what the devs told us.
Now I am going to expect maybe neither the humans to teach the healflings to be druids nor the halflings to the humans it is possible that it was Hirode who taught to be druids to his followers and the races that follow Hirode can be druids and the others not
Syrif said:oneADseven said:At the expense of players being able to achieve distinctiveness amongst themselves. It's a game rail, plain and simple. Some schools require children to wear identical uniforms. Many occupations do the same. Open-World MMORPG's are supposed to cultivate self-expression rather than dictate dress code.
If Pantheon is similar to other mmorpg’s that Brad & Team have developed, then you will see an abundance of gear to choose from. :) I don’t see dress code being a problem in Pantheon - I wouldn’t worry about it.
Isn't forcing someone to be one of two races essentially a "dress code"? Like requiring the choice of either dress coat or sports jacket, but you have to wear a coat if you want to participate in that event. If you don't like wearing dress coats, you either have to suck it up because you really want to attend that event, or you forego the event either way eventually becoming resentful/bitter... ESPECIALLY when you see that some people don't have to wear a coat. Analogy aside, I will be very surprised if max level characters of the same class wont be wearing a lot of the same gear which will likely look the same depending on the race equiping it. So there's a 50% chance that a max level paladin will likely look like a every other max level paladin you see (either tall and boring or short fat). Very distinctive.
oneADseven said:How does this even remotely make sense? Ogres were on Terminus 600 years before Halflings. Druids were gifted Hirode from Masae, the Halfling Ward. According to lore, 5/6 races didn't have Hirode until the halflings arrived. So the Halfling Ward gifted all druids Hirode, but the halflings, in particular, had to learn how to be druids from the previously landed races, right? It's not like they brought this "druidism" with them from their home planet if all existing druids used the same spells as halflings before they even got there, right? Gnomes are simply what they are ... but they summon the exact same arcamentals as Dark Myr, Elf, and Human. Every race is different, but somehow the 7 races that allow rogues all have access to the same unstable mixtures, pressurized flasks, sleeping powder, and flash bombs? Every race is different but whenever their classes overlap they share the same "passive traits." All races are super unique and different but Archai/Dark Myr/Elf/Halfling/Human/Ogre all have some sort of inherent "Storm Warden" trait that makes them more powerful when a storm is nearby.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There is nothing unreasonable in assuming that the various races would have developed some of the same skills, spells, knowledge, etc independently of each other. It's also quite reasonable IMO to assume that some aspects of a class could have been unique to a particular race in isolation, but after arriving on Terminus, they would have mixed their knowledge and culture with the other races. A good real-life historical example is how horses were not native to North America, but after Europeans brought them here the Native Americans adopted their use to the point where they are commonly viewed as an integral part of that culture. Similarly, hot chili peppers are native to South America, but they have become culturally associated with SE Asian cuisine.
All we really know is that each race that can play a class will have access to all of the listed spells for that class at this point in time. That doesn't meant that each race has always had access to all of these spells and abilities, nor does it mean that there won't be additional spells that might be race-specific. For example, priests in WoW get a unique spell based on their race. Something like that in Pantheon would be pretty cool IMO.
zoltar said:I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There is nothing unreasonable in assuming that the various races would have developed some of the same skills, spells, knowledge, etc independently of each other.
Sure ... if we're talking about things like shield block, shield slam, and angering blow. Malison's Lucid Nightmare, though? That sounds like a pretty specialized ability, even outside of the name. How about the 6 gates that monks need to open with chakra? There has to be some sort of consistency with how all of the classes follow the same steps and procedures. Surely the Skar didn't learn how to open the gates of Joy, Peace, and Balance all on their own, right? As far as we know ... Archai/Dark Myr/Human/Skar monks all have the same abilities. The first 3 all landed on Terminus together between 458-459 IH. Did all three races have monks at the time? During that timeframe, were Skar Monks a thing on D'Shoth? If so, did they have any concept of chakra? (Seems highly unlikely.) If you look at the original post I responded to with this message ... I was challenging the idea of "Races are what they are" when it comes to justifying the restrictions. I don't think that it "makes sense" that they are when all classes share the exact same abilities (as far as we know) regardless of race.
To be fair ... the abilities being discussed here weren't revealed until approximately 15 months after the race/class matrix was made public. It would have been impossible to factor these things in at the time unless they were already documented. Either way ... I think it's highly unreasonable that every class "trains/prepares/specializes" in uniform fashion regardless of race. It's unreasonable that they would have developed these skill sets and spells the exact same way completely independent of each other, especially while some races were on different planets during the process.
zoltar said:It's also quite reasonable IMO to assume that some aspects of a class could have been unique to a particular race in isolation, but after arriving on Terminus, they would have mixed their knowledge and culture with the other races. A good real-life historical example is how horses were not native to North America, but after Europeans brought them here the Native Americans adopted their use to the point where they are commonly viewed as an integral part of that culture. Similarly, hot chili peppers are native to South America, but they have become culturally associated with SE Asian cuisine.
I agree with this and it's the exact argument that I used to justify why Archai Clerics/Paladins could/should be a thing. They spent a bunch of time with Dwarves in the Frozen Sanctum and seeing that the Archai are known as a "liberated" race, surely it would make sense that some of them would have taken an interest in learning how to destroy the same undead (particularly Haethus-Krevgejl, the fallen Archai deity that joined the Ravaging Lord) that they were fighting against with the dwarves, right? The Revenant had a huge presence during the Age of Chaos and there was a massive war between the Sacred Six and the Ravaging Lord during the year of 485. Wouldn't this be a great time to share culture and teach each other how to specialize vs undead (paladin/cleric) seeing that their survival was dependent on beating them? Dark Myr are a vengeful and prideful race but none of their clerics decided to lay down their tome in favor of sword and shield? Paladin/Cleric are two of the most exclusive classes even though one of the most important battles in the history of Terminus was waged against The Revenant while Dwarves/Elves/Ogres/Archai/Dark Myr/Humans fought together as the Sacred Six.
oneADseven said:Sure ... if we're talking about things like shield block, shield slam, and angering blow. Malison's Lucid Nightmare, though? That sounds like a pretty specialized ability, even outside of the name. How about the 6 gates that monks need to open with chakra? There has to be some sort of consistency with how all of the classes follow the same steps and procedures. Surely the Skar didn't learn how to open the gates of Joy, Peace, and Balance all on their own, right? ...
I don't see why they couldn't have done so or at least have been taught by other races on their home planet. Also, they could have learned these techniques before they were cursed by the 9 god.
I agree with this and it's the exact argument that I used to justify why Archai Paladins could/should be a thing. They spent a bunch of time with Dwarves in the Frozen Sanctum and seeing that the Archai are known as a "liberated" race, surely it would make sense that some of them would have taken an interest in learning how to destroy the same undead (particularly Haethus-Krevgejl, the fallen Archai deity that joined the Ravaging Lord) that they were fighting against with the dwarves, right? The Revenant had a huge presence during the Age of Chaos and there was a massive war between the Sacred Six and the Ravaging Lord during the year of 485. Wouldn't this be a great time to share culture and teach each other how to specialize vs undead (paladin/cleric) seeing that their survival was dependent on beating them? Dark Myr are a vengeful and prideful race but none of their clerics decided to lay down their tome in favor of sword and shield? Paladin/Cleric are two of the most exclusive classes even though one of the most important battles in the history of Terminus was waged against The Revenant while Dwarves/Elves/Ogres/Archai/Dark Myr/Humans fought together as the Sacred Six.
Yea, except that to be a cleric (and paladin) requires a specific type of relationship/history between the race and the gods of their pantheon. Check this out from the Cleric description:
It is the Frail Age of Terminus. After the Deicide War, communion with the Celestials is nearly unheard of. Thus, the Cleric can scarcely rely on their Pantheon directly. Instead, they must bind themselves to the ancient tomes of their Order; the fading vestiges of light from when the Celestials had drawn near.
So it doesn't seem like it's as easy as just waking up one day and saying to yourself "you know, these Revenant really suck. Maybe we should become clerics/paladins.". If you didn't already have a clerical order established to maintain these ancient tomes and relics, you wouldn't have the means to draw forth the celestial power.
Fair enough. In any event ... I totally imagined characters waking up one day and saying to themselves ... "you know, music and morale is really awesome. Maybe we should become bards." It will be interesting to see whether other classes end up having that same sort of symbiotic relationship with their selected deities. This reminds me of a post from Istuulamae from a few years ago:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3585/deities-and-alliances
Istuulamae said:LeonSanborn -
We will be releasing that information at some point. Right now we are focusing on how picking a deity will impact char creation, class, etc. (HEAVY CAVEAT: we are also discussing *if* it will impact those things. So please hold off on any "Pantheon Dev sez deity selection will give your class a special bonus and that will adversely affect balancing" threads, if you can)
In short, we want it to matter what deity you select, for obvious reasons. But there's a nuance in Pantheon that may differ from other games: each race has anywhere from 1-?00 deities, or things functioning in a deity-esque role. So you aren't picking from global, universal gods. You're picking from your racial roster, which is likely exclusive to your race. Now, there may still be some crossover between "like" deities, and that's the part we're working through now. So if you pick a God of Death for the Ogres, shouldn't that breed some familiarity with the followers of a similar god among the Dark Myr? We think so.
When we've got those details worked out, I'm sure we'll have releases that help you acclimate and understand the Gods -- or similar beings -- of each race. We want you to know who you're serving, as much as you can.
Apologies on the lore not having a fuller explanation inherently in it. I will work on a post that sheds some light on that, or may just ammend the currently posted stuff.
Thanks!
stellarmind said:woke up, did the ritual, got my news, got my coffee and now i'm reading protf forums. life is good and it's great to see a respectful clash of ideas.
@187 with RP in mind, it's great that you want any class any race. that's why humans are perfect for you XD let's take a step into the dark myr society for a moment. in any military, you don't choose your occupation. you are tested for certain proficiencies then they put you where you can best serve the community/organization. you can look at spartans, blue collar jobs, white collar jobs, and even nature (orcas, dogs, monkeys, etc). speaking from personal military experience, everyone had this fantasy of being a grunt. i wanted to be a grunt, but ended up in aviation because of my proficiencies. if i was a military organization or culture designed to wage war, i'm going to put this guy in aviation because he's going to be my efficient at messing around with machines of war (it's not like many people can even work on these machines. well now or days the machines almost fix themselves)
if the purpose is to create a world, then there are natural laws that have to be followed. this is the way races, culture, and societies have always operated. they have certain bounds and restrictions. you can even look at the forums. we can't just say whatever we want to say. we aren't allowed to use profanity, make racial, religous or political references.
@nephele i'd totally get dark myr paladins if leviathans were raising the dead. lore wise though, it wouldn't be farfetched to say that the dark myr themselves would raise their own to help fight off the leviathans. they can play necromancers.
@zuljan the whole deal with the dread myr is very interesting. nythir and syronai are basically like the daddy and mommy for the dark myr. you could say the dread myr were daddys boy so they were really hard on just staying in the water. the mommy genetically modifies them to have a lung and some legs for survival of the race because she knows they can't stay in the water forever. dread myr are like, why u disrespect dad you thot, we don't want lung and legs! and so they killed her to prevent her from modifying them any further to respect the dads sacrifice. dark myr is tragic. you can justify the actions of the dread myr. it's really how civil wars break out. i just think they are in a state of indifference.
kind of like this thread. you see if we operated without distinctiveness or restrictions, WE WOULD NOT HAVE STORIES LIKE THIS.
* Stellar drops the mike and walks away.