An interesting thing I would like to point out is that the more skilled/hardcore players are even less reliant on managing their hotbars perfectly which means that this aspect of challenge is even more boring and unfulfilling for that type of player. We have seen a variety of wipes on stream but when it comes time to reattempt those encounters, what changes? There isn't any time spent conversing about how the team could change up their hotbars ... it usually comes down to how/when they are using the abilities on them. It comes down to getting the positioning right, the communication right, the timing right. In other words, the need to plan is already being realized ... it just isn't being facilitated through the LAS. For me personally, I am far more interested in challenge being presented in how/when abilities are being used rather than determining what abilities are going to be used in the first place. The more abilities that I'm responsible for nailing the how/when for, the better. Here are some examples:
1) (Bad) -- When do I put my AoE mezz on my hotbar? (Does the upcoming encounter have multiple mezzable NPC's that cannot be split apart? Seems like a simple enough decision.)
2) (Good) -- When do I use my AoE mezz? (Do I use it on the pull and mezz 2 of the three mobs, or save it for when a wave of 4-5 adds spawn?)
3) (Bad) -- When do I buff my allies? (Without a concentration mechanic, it always makes sense to apply as many buffs as you have available, and then remove them from your bar and replace them with something else that would be more efficient during combat.)
4) (Good) -- Which buffs do I give? (With a concentration mechanic, players would need to decide whether they want to give their team some extra HP, magic resist, or resource recovery.)
If we look at those previous quotes from Aradune, he suggested that managing buffs should be "extremely important." There should be some sort of tact/strategy that goes into that process and you don't really get that if long-duration buffs continue to persist after they are removed from the LAS. This is a critical fault in the EQ style of combat. If you can apply buffs while circumventing the need to allocate slots for them on the LAS, what meaningful decision is there to be made? Players apply all of their buffs, swap them out for something else, wait for full resources, and then pull. If they fail, they put those buffs back on their bar and rinse/repeat. The only meaningful buff decisions that I can see with the current system are for those that can only be cast on a single target (can still circumvent the LAS) and those that offer temporary benefits. I am highly interested in the temporary buffs. These type of buffs generally have a shorter duration and longer recast so it's important to use them efficiently. Damage reduction spells, increased healing spells, damage modifiers, resource modifiers, etc. The more of those things that we are responsible for at any given point in time, the more likely we are to make a mistake. This is something that should be an active/reactive component of gameplay rather than proactive, and the more of that we have, the better. I'm fine with having a super important planning phase but that base already appears to be covered 10 times over.
Nubi said:There are currently ten meaningful abilities. It seems people keep considering auto-attacks as meaningful choices.
auto attack can't be meaningful choice because it's automatic! get it? it's not a choice because it's automatic?????
now if basic attack (meaning an ability) is what they mean to build resource, then it can be interpeted as a meaningful choice have a bigger pool for another ability.
To respond to OneADseven,
Absoultely those items are skill related. I am not however talking about threat management or CC, or healing, or tanking. I am trying to keep this topic strictly to the topic of doing damage. I assume every class won't be a buffer/CCer?
With that said, I'll sort of re-state my main concern. The aspect of DOING DAMAGE does not look challenging in it's current state and will not allow for enough challenge to both keep players engaged and be able to set themsevles apart from other players who are either significantly better or worse at thinking switfly and tactically. If someone who is nearly brand new to the game goes into the fight with the same abilities as someone else (lets say google helped them out) and they are able to do very similar DPS to someone who has been mastering the game for a long time and is very skillful then I think something is off with the class design or game design.
Nubi said:
To respond to OneADseven,
Absoultely those items are skill related. I am not however talking about threat management or CC, or healing, or tanking. I am trying to keep this topic strictly to the topic of doing damage. I assume every class won't be a buffer/CCer?
With that said, I'll sort of re-state my main concern. The aspect of DOING DAMAGE does not look challenging in it's current state and will not allow for enough challenge to both keep players engaged and be able to set themsevles apart from other players who are either significantly better or worse at thinking switfly and tactically. If someone who is nearly brand new to the game goes into the fight with the same abilities as someone else (lets say google helped them out) and they are able to do very similar DPS to someone who has been mastering the game for a long time and is very skillful then I think something is off with the class design or game design.
One consideration to make is the fact that a person who has rolled DPS and wants to go out there and do their characters maximum dps is going to have to re learn how and when to turn up the dps to maximum with each group they join, as each and every tank they play with will be better or worse at holding agro than the last. The skill of DPS is precision timing of unloading heavy damage, if you go all out from the moment the pull commences (as it is in most games these days) in Pantheon you will draw agro and then your dead or if not dead you just wasted the healers mana and now we have extended downtimes, if you are too conservative you wont draw agro but you wont be participating to your fullest, stiking up the balance is critical for a good DPS and the goal posts of perfect balance will keep shifting as you group with different people. Knowing when to unload so as not to have to be saved is one of the most important skills to aquired as a dps.
Pantheon DPS is not going to be all about maxing parses... its going to be about fitting in to the ability level of the group you have joined and pushing the limits within that individual groups capacity
Hokanu said:One consideration to make is the fact that a person who has rolled DPS and wants to go out there and do their characters maximum dps is going to have to re learn how and when to turn up the dps to maximum with each group they join, as each and every tank they play with will be better or worse at holding agro than the last. The skill of DPS is precision timing of unloading heavy damage, if you go all out from the moment the pull commences (as it is in most games these days) in Pantheon you will draw agro and then your dead or if not dead you just wasted the healers mana and now we have extended downtimes, if you are too conservative you wont draw agro but you wont be participating to your fullest, stiking up the balance is critical for a good DPS and the goal posts of perfect balance will keep shifting as you group with different people. Knowing when to unload so as not to have to be saved is one of the most important skills to aquired as a dps.
Pantheon DPS is not going to be all about maxing parses... its going to be about fitting in to the ability level of the group you have joined and pushing the limits within that individual groups capacity
EQ didn't have threat drop abilities per say. Rogues and Monks had a way but it wasn't designed around dropping threat. As you said knowing how much damage you CAN do is a skill that will take practice. IMO the hallmark of a good game is easy to learn hard to master. You can take any MMO out currently and I can google the optimal DPS rotation. There isn't much skill in that either, just APM. The skill comes from knowing the fight mechanics and all the other little things that occur. I despise ability bloat. I don't want 20+ abilities on my hotbars.
@Nubi
I do agree with your sentiment that the concern is considerably more prolific for the DPS archetype than others, but at the end of the day, it seems like all classes will be responsible for contributing some form of DPS. As a long-time tank main I can say with confidence that having more responsibilities does equate to "challenge." As a warrior, I want to be responsible for maintaining aggro, protecting my allies, using my kit to help my team synergize to the best of their ability, timing important buffs that can help with my own survival, interrupting NPC abilities, leveraging the CC abilities I have, cleansing CC from myself, and doing damage. If I'm limited to 12 abilities at any given point in time then my responsibilities will dwindle.
When I think about maintaining aggro in Pantheon, I don't want it to be as simple as "Use taunt whenever the NPC targets another player." I have at least 4 abilities that are directly focused around threat management and I would like to see combat be difficult/demanding enough where I need to leverage all of those abilities on a consistent basis. I do not want threat management to be a braindead activity. Doing damage should absolutely have an impact on threat management so the skill you are referencing with DPS classes is something that I'd like to see translate to tanks as well. We shouldn't have to rely on damage as our main source of threat management but it should definitely be a factor.
Unfortunately, the LAS very much seems like an "on-rails" type of experience to me. If the enemy has nasty CC then I'll probably want to slot in Breaker's Roar. The issue I have with this is that I would know that ahead of time, forever, after I figure it out the first time. Is that supposed to be satisfying? The realization that an enemy is going to use a certain ability, and since I have an ability that can counter it, I am overcoming a challenge by slotting it onto my hotbar? Knowledge is half the battle ... and since I know what an enemy does, and properly manage my hotbar before the fight even starts, I'm already half-way to victory? What the hell is that? If knowing how to prepare a hotbar is supposed to actually be considered challenging ... in 2019, where this kind of information will be more accessible than ever, I will be extremely disappointed.
There are dozens of ways to emphasize "meaningful preparation" in an MMO that doesn't require an LAS. There are far fewer ways to emphasize "execution" in real-time and they are completely dependent on our ability to perform actions. We have movement keys, auto-attack, timing, and ability/spell usage. When I think of risk/reward ... it should be balanced around what takes place during combat just as much as what happens before it starts. If risk/reward is balanced around building the ideal hotbar setup, with the potential of making insurmountable mistakes (not having an interrupt on your bar during a fight where interrupting a specific attack is considered a win condition) ... yikes. That isn't going to resonate with what I thought was a big part of the target demographic. Here is a quote from Brad:
"We are absolutely convinced that a large group of younger players will end up loving the game, assuming we can reach them, show them something that seems fun and interesting, provide answers to their questions no matter how simple or sophisticated. These people love Dark Souls, Call of Duty, the better MOBAs, the survival games -- they crave both challenge and risk and reward, but they also crave experiencing these things together with other real people. There's just something that's part of human nature where if you experience something exciting, dangerous, tension-filled, etc. and you experience that with other actual people, those events have a greater impact and create much deeper and longer lasting memories."
Managing hotbars is not exciting, dangerous, or tension-filled. It isn't challenging, and it's not even close to what I would classify as risk/reward. If you want those sensations to be enjoyed then you need to demand high levels of execution. Again, there is nothing wrong with emphasizing the planning phase. I think they both compliment each other. In League of Legends, for example, (The most played game in the world) there is an emphasis on both planning and execution. Before a round starts you need to draft a team composition. Depending on the champions your teammates pick, you may want to "flex" to fill a void. If your team doesn't have a tank then you should probably play one if possible. If your entire team does magic damage then you should probably play a champion that does physical damage. You need to think about your team composition and what the enemy team composition looks like, and then choose your rune page. The rune page is going to have a big impact on how you play your champion during the match and it cannot be changed after the session begins. Before the round starts, you're essentially "locked in" to a variety of tactical decisions.
At the same time, execution always trumps planning. You could have the worst team composition imaginable, and a horrible rune page, but if you are a highly skilled player, you can still shine and prevail victorious. I get that MOBA's and MMO's aren't the exact same thing but my point is that if we're talking about tension, danger and excitement ... that is something that speaks more to "action" than "planning." I'm not saying that I want twitchy arcade-style MMO combat and that is why I have repeatedly referenced FFXI on this thread. Having access to more abilities does not automatically translate to "more actions per minute." If resource management is going to be a thing in this game then players should be incentivized to use utilize their resources efficiently. There should be "windows of opportunity" where using the right ability at the right time makes a positive difference and where making a mistake puts you behind. The more potential there are for "active mistakes" the better.
That is what sets skilled players apart from those who win half the battle by looking up a guide on google or youtube. Limiting the amount of abilities that we have access to, at any given point in time, makes the game easier from an execution perspective. There is a reason that a League of Legends video on youtube can generate millions of views where high levels of skill are demonstrated but only a fraction of a percent of players would be able to actuate what is being observed. If an average player plays a "meta-champion" with an exceptionally high win-rate, and with what is considered an "over-powered build" -- they would still get crushed by a highly skilled player who plays a "random champion" with an off-meta goofy build. I'll take execution over emulation all day every day. There is certainly a balance that needs to be struck between execution and planning and my stance on this thread is very much an attempt to say that an emphasis on the former appears to be lacking.
That was a great post. I think you pointed out a bunch of really great items to think about.
You mentioned it being 2019 with information at our fingertips. I personally don't look forward to alt-tabbing to get an optimal hotbar set up every boss that our group faces. The downtime for each person in the group to do this would be incredible. And don't think for a second that a VERY large portion of people won't be doing this. Especially with the higher death penalties when compared to other MMOs. People will take every advantage they can get-- even if that advantage is tedious, time consuming and incredibly unfun!
I hope the devs keep this in mind as this is NOT something that is even possible to do during testing because the wealth of information of a game that has been out for a bit isn't there yet.
I also really like the point you made about much fewer ways to create challenging dynamic combat and how they are all based on what inputs we provide. There really are so many different ways that preperation can come into effect that don't have to limit our ability arsenal. So many of those are already in place (climate, resistances, consumables, group composition etc).
Really what I don't want to see is a bunch of pointless extra abilities that aren't actually any different from each other. I don't need Left Kick, Right Kick, Up Kick, Down Kick. Just give me Kick. There's no functional difference, it's just more pointless button mashing. Make the dynamics of the encounter the challenge, not how many different buttons I can click in the right combination.
Nubi said:It does look like most people are okay with what they have planned. Which is good, I especially agree with Iskar with moving away from the builders spender, however I still don't really see how you make doing damage CHALLENGING without said tight rotations-- At least enough to allow people to set themselves apart from others with less skill. For me this is very important and what drives me to want to succeed, play and get better.
I imagine that a skillful DPS-dealer could exploit small windows of vulnerability of the mob.
E.g., immediately after the mob has performed a wild swing at the tank and missed, a low kick has a fair chance to cause critical damage. Or maybe a certain spell causing dizzyness landed by another group member, would make a kick to the head very powerful.
Basically, the idea is that you cannot train a certain rotation for maximum damage. You have to observe and then quickly decide which ability to use.
Ezrael said: Nubi can you count? Look at the screenshot. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 - = that’s 12 abilities, ignoring melee and ranged auto-attack. If you count those as well you reach 14.
Some of these posts grasp at designing a system that is presumed to control the 'challenge' of this game and they do so without many data. This is a reponse of being worried or concerned, if you prefer. In short, things like numbers are right out. ;)
Nubi said:That was a great post. I think you pointed out a bunch of really great items to think about.
You mentioned it being 2019 with information at our fingertips. I personally don't look forward to alt-tabbing to get an optimal hotbar set up every boss that our group faces. The downtime for each person in the group to do this would be incredible. And don't think for a second that a VERY large portion of people won't be doing this. Especially with the higher death penalties when compared to other MMOs. People will take every advantage they can get-- even if that advantage is tedious, time consuming and incredibly unfun!
I hope the devs keep this in mind as this is NOT something that is even possible to do during testing because the wealth of information of a game that has been out for a bit isn't there yet.
I also really like the point you made about much fewer ways to create challenging dynamic combat and how they are all based on what inputs we provide. There really are so many different ways that preperation can come into effect that don't have to limit our ability arsenal. So many of those are already in place (climate, resistances, consumables, group composition etc).
Couple things. I will admit I don't know how often we'll face "bosses" but if its anything like EQ it wont be as often as current MMO's. In current MMO's you have about 3 bosses per dungeon instance. In EQ there was normally 2-3 boss camps per dungeon but there would be 8 or so camps. You're most likely going to know which boss you're camping so at worst you'll need to look up which abilities one boss is weak to. As far as down time... what is it 5 minutes for an entire group to swap out abilities? I think it would be less... but really even 5 minutes isn't a large amount of down time for what this game is aiming for.
I assume buff classes will already be switching out buff spells with longer durations so spell swapping wont be unheard of.
Here is some data:
"We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group."
I'll believe it when I see it. If there is any semblance of truth to the above then combat should be much different in Pantheon than it was in EQ. The definition of insanity is to continue doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. In this context, we are not only expecting a different result, we're talking about taking things from one extreme to the next. (Instead of multi-boxing being notoriously easy, it should be extremely difficult if not impossible.) Challenge and difficulty go hand in hand. Has the above philosophy been abandoned? If not, how does VR plan on accomplishing it? An answer would be very much appreciated, no matter how simple or sophisticated it may be. Player Interdependence is arguably the single most important game-defining feature that I can think of for Pantheon. If multi-boxing is allowed to run rampant, the core philosophy and spirit of the game will be compromised. For what? Nostalgia? I'm not a new or younger player but I am very much interested in the experience that has been alluded to; one that is filled with excitement, danger, and tension, and where actual people are considered the magical ingredient.
Sure, I'd like an answer too.
The quote you've provided is a statement that declares something they wanted but I don't see it as a datum. The only data I've seen on this topic are in the gameplay videos. I understand the confusion between 'is this a slower game or a game too busy for multiboxing' but this thread also involves immersion, gameplay in and out of combat, 'choice' and more.
So for many of these topics we don't have the data and it's just so soon to be concerned with it. Again because 1) they've said it'll be complex and 2) they've shown us simple. So what can we expect at this point? Probably best to ask them for an answer as you just did.
Multi-boxing is approved, as it's not condemned. /follow is, if not already in game, planned to be in game. /assist, if not already in game, is planned to be in game. /loc has been said to either be in the game, or will be shortly. A client side logfile is confirmed. Group chat is confirmed. Global chat channels are confirmed. /tells are confirmed. Pets are in the game.
As such, the path to powerlevelling accounts for sale (or, victory, in a PL guild) is: Put everyone on /follow to the group leader. Pull a creature to camp (with a max level char, typically, to avoid all the nasty intended social aggro issues). Have every person in the group /target nearest or /assist the group leader or puller, /pet attack, and press 1,2,3 (or whatever keys in whatever sequence) to blow up the single target in the smallest amount of time possible. Rinse, repeat.
I'm oversimplifying, but not by much. This is -only- based on what has been demonstrated so far, to date, in all the public videos, and the public design goals, to date. It is a sad reality, but scripts can play some MMO's better than players.
As has been mentioned so far, the players so far? They don't swap abilities encounter-to-encounter, at least not in the videos I've watched. Nor has anyone ever been 'caught' needing an ability that hasn't been on their hotbar. But of course, there have been group wipes, too, so maybe that's what they should have been doing, although there's been no dev commentary to that effect, either. Applying status effects and exploiting them has real potential, but there's been no demonstration or mention that a system of that type is what is going to make multi-boxing difficult if not impossible, or even that using such a system will be seen as required from an efficiency perspective, it being so incredibly effective.
vjek said:I'm oversimplifying, but not by much. This is -only- based on what has been demonstrated so far, to date, in all the public videos, and the public design goals, to date. It is a sad reality, but scripts can play some MMO's better than players.
This is where my mind was at a minute ago... and maybe that's the danger of showing the game in such an early stage of development. That we can only see the simple beginnings. What we've seen might look contrary to what they have planned.
mmm I dunno. If they had better, I think they would show it, or at least talk about it. I mean.. I get what you're saying, but they simply haven't said that they intend to make it better, or vastly different, than what has been show so far.
It's not like they've said... " just wait until PA5, we will have Combat 2.0 and it's going to eliminate the possibility of multiboxing through the _______ mechanic. " If they had? Right there with you.
They've been showing combat videos since 2016. How long are the simple beginnings going to be? 4 years? 5 years? At some point, if it's not going to be this, they will need to tell us. :)
Nubi said:
To respond to OneADseven,
Absoultely those items are skill related. I am not however talking about threat management or CC, or healing, or tanking. I am trying to keep this topic strictly to the topic of doing damage. I assume every class won't be a buffer/CCer?
With that said, I'll sort of re-state my main concern. The aspect of DOING DAMAGE does not look challenging in it's current state and will not allow for enough challenge to both keep players engaged and be able to set themsevles apart from other players who are either significantly better or worse at thinking switfly and tactically. If someone who is nearly brand new to the game goes into the fight with the same abilities as someone else (lets say google helped them out) and they are able to do very similar DPS to someone who has been mastering the game for a long time and is very skillful then I think something is off with the class design or game design.
from a dps point of view, i think what they are going to aim for is to be situationally aware of the enviroment. let's just say a wizard is trying to optimize dps. it's raining so he'll use water based spells, however, the mobs are plant based. so does he use a fire spell which does reduce damage in the rain? no he'll use arcane because that's what he has equipped on his bar as a backup, although the optimal choice would have been lightning based spells.
if i had to guess this is what they would be aiming for, but we have yet to see a working concept of this.
my take is that if they have a limited action bar for one class, they need to do it for all of the classes. that would definitely affect tanks, healers and cc players since the playstyle dictates an active reactive gameplay.
Updating the FAQ is always helpful. It's years out of date. Many videos have information that supercedes statements in the FAQ.
Evidently, though, editing the FAQ is too time consuming? I don't know. If it were me, I would keep it up to date, and simply point everyone to it in the name of efficiency, but that's just me.
Iterating through failure, to me, is the opposite of situational choices. It's also the antithesis of dynamic combat. If you (can only) win by having the right 12 abilities on the LAS hotbar, then.. you should have those 12, right?
If not, you're just guaranteeing failure. Or intentionally planning to fail, to some degree, however small.
On the other hand, if you can succeed, despite that, by reacting appropriately to dynamic combat with everything at your disposal, that could be awesome, too! But that's not what's being sold here, so far.
Either LAS is seen as a good thing, and consequently dynamic content is gone (or less),
OR
The advertised/described mechanic so far is guaranteed to create never ending frustration for all paying customers, by creating situations that cannot be reacted to because ... wait for it.. the LAS mechanic prevents it.
Ezrael said: What’s emerging from the recent discussion by a few people here is that you guys don’t actually play video games, discover and figure things out yourselves. You just alt tab to go online and read a guide that tells you exactly what to do? How can your first thought regarding the challenge of a new boss and not being sure which 12 abilities you should select is that you think you should alt tab to an online guide? Why are you even interesting in this game? The whole premise behind what it is trying to bring back and the different situational choices it is trying to create. It seems like you want 90 available abilities and a UI that tells you what to do and when to do it. Then you just want current WoW BFA with add-ons...
haha right? i mean if i'm limited to 12 bars that's exactly what i'm going to do since i don't want to die (if death results in some pretty penalities) OR if they are going to allow addons it's going to be a REQUIREMENT to have this ADDON to even be accepted into groups. cancerous addons >.> sure has taking a lot of the thinking out of the game. some ppl just can't see a red circle and need some addon to tell them NOT TO STAND IN THE RED CIRCLE.
i'm interest in this game because of brad uwudune mcquaid. plus i want to support vr. i did alot of background research and i think they'll push out a good product.
90 available abilities? extreme but i'd compromise at 24 but a solid 36 is preferable. if i'm playing an enchanter, my ability to act/react will dictate how good of a player i am. same goes for healing and tanking.
ui that tells me what to do? no.
besides we all are just looking for a game to call home that we can enjoy for a long time. if you are on these forums, we all definitely play video games that were much harder and challenging.
it'd be a dumb move to completely go old school. take the aspects of modern day gaming that work well, maintain the old school models that work also work well, remove aspects that were needlessly tedious and merge the two.
work together not against each other!
oneADseven said:...
I just see it as two different ways to handle combat, one isn't necessarily better or worse than the other and they are challenging in different ways.
One is akin to packing up a backpack with essentials for a wilderness hike and the other is more akin to wandering around with a bag of holding with everything one could ever need. The former might lose their footing and fall into a ravine only to find themselves in a very challenging position having decided this hike would more likely require binoculars and not a grappling hook. They can get out of the ravine but it will be more difficult to pull off, and yes they might die. At any part of the journey they might find themselves in a tough spot because they weren't prepared for what was encountered, not because they didn't think of the dangers but because they couldn't bring all the possible tools due to limitations. They had to make choices.
The latter doesn't ever have to worry about any of that nor does he have to work with any companions to assess who should bring what. The companions they travel with changes very little about how they go about their business, yet for the former it changes everything about thier grouping experience and what each person decides to pack in their backpacks because optimization and full preparedness requires teamwork/communication not just about when to use the tools but what tools to bring.
With all abilities available all the time groups will have 300+ abilities available at all times in any given encounter instead of 72. No tradeoffs would need to be made, 6 people with every stun/slow/heal/shield/damage/etc ability possible to overwhelm any given fight. To me it seems less of a challenge when everyone has access to all their abilities: something needs an interrupt then you have 6 people capable, an add or two shows up and you have 6 people worth of CC ready to go, things start going south and you have 6 people with every "oh ****" ability ready to go.
(Also, my god I would not envy healers with all abilities available all the time. Half their screen would be hotbars with every heal and every version/down-rank of each.)