Iksar said: I know I've said it somewhere before but my basic feeling on this is that we really need to get away from the builder/spender active ability paradigm. If DPS classes in particular are set up as builders and spenders then it will boil down to fairly basic optimal rotations for any given fight, very predictable and mindless in short time. ...
But.. aren't pretty much all the current class designs set up as builders/spenders?
Cleric:
Celestial Power - Clerics gain Celestial Power as a percentage of the effective healing they perform on themselves and their allies. Also, certain abilities increase a Cleric’s Celestial Power by a certain amount when used. Other abilities have a Celestial Power cost in order to be performed.
Paladin:
Wrath, Recckoning Points - In combat, Paladins will gain Wrath as they take damage from enemies. Paladins will also gain an amount of Wrath based on their Constitution every time their group slays an enemy. Also, certain abilities will increase a Paladin’s Wrath by a certain amount when used. Other abilities will have a Wrath cost in order to be performed.
In addition to Wrath, Paladins will be able to generate up to 3 Reckoning Points represented in the UI by a row of 3 suns, filling one at a time as Reckoning Points are accumulated during combat. Paladins will then be able to use these Reckoning points to perform heroic feats during battle.
Warrior:
Battle Points - Warriors can accumulate up to five Battle Points represented in the UI by a row of five shields, filling one at a time as Battle Points are accumulated during combat. Warriors will then be able to use these Battle Points to perform heroic feats during battle.
Dire Lord:
Essence - In combat, Dire Lords will constantly generate Essence as a percentage of the damage they deal. They will also gain Essence based on the damage they take. As Essence is accumulated, it is represented by an Essence Vial integrated into the character portrait.
In addition, certain abilities will increase a Dire Lord’s Essence by a certain amount when used. Other abilities will have an Essence cost in order to be performed.
Ranger:
Momentum
In combat, Rangers will constantly generate Momentum as a percentage of the damage they deal. In addition, certain melee and range abilities will increase a Ranger's Momentum by a certain amount when used. Other abilities will have a Momentum cost in order to be performed.
The more Momentum a Ranger has, the faster their melee and ranged attack speed becomes, up to a 20% increase when Momentum is full. When a Ranger chooses to spend Momentum, their melee and ranged attack speed will slow in proportion until the Ranger builds their momentum up again.
Monk:
Chakra - In combat, Monks will constantly generate Chakra as a percentage of the damage they deal. In addition, certain abilities will increase a Monk's Chakra by a certain amount when used.
As a Monk increases their pool of Chakra (represented by a resource bar that fills left to right, 0 to 100), they will open consecutive Chakra gates along the way (represented by segments within the bar) until all 6 gates are open. Some of the Monk's abilities will have a Chakra cost in order to be performed. Others will require a certain Chakra gate to be open and when used will expend all of the Chakra it has taken to open that Chakra gate.
Shaman:
Vision - Vision
Shamans gain Vision as a percentage of the effective healing they perform on themselves and their allies. The more Vision a Shaman accumulates, the faster their spell-casting speed becomes, up to a total of X%. This is represented in the UI by a closed eye in the character portrait. As a Shaman’s Vision increases, the eye will progressively open until full
And of course, all mana users build/regen mana, then spend it. Rogue is about the only thing that doesn't have something special, and they have Stamina, which recharges (currently, very quickly), and then they spend it to use abilities.
Tekzan said:I'm not concerned with too few abilities. The way I see it, few active abilities makes you have to think ahead and plan. It removes some of the facerolling, button smashing out of the equation. Looking back at games I've played and games I currently play, few is better. It gives me the chance to account for gear, passive abilities, and racials. Having 7 to 10 active abilities is much more comfortable to learn than having 24 or more icons spread across my screen.
Stuff like accounting for gear, passive abilities and racials are all things that are done pre-battle. Not on the fly decisions that you have to make.
Removing buttons does reduce facerolling however I don't belive that equates to planning. The only time planning really matters, unless RNG is involved, is for longer cooldowns and using them at an optimal time. And the more longer cooldowns that you have, the fewer buttons there are that you're actually pressing inbetween. Then it ends up being a mindless press 5-6 buttons over and over again while you wait for that optimal time to use your longer cooldowns.
Honestly it's the line of thought that few buttons means you are required to plan more really scares me, as this is just not true. It does take away the requirement of needing a tight rotation and getting everything down to the millisecond. It does remove a bunch of the min-maxing. But the only real way to have increased planning and gravity of decisions is to either have an extremely slow to replenish resource or long cooldowns. If done through just the former it creates long periods of time just sitting there doing nothing, if done through cooldowns it would require more ability slots (imo).
The only way (that I know of) other than cooldown managment or unrealistic resource replenishment to actually increase the challenge of doing damage in a traditional MMO is to add RNG or Proc based mechanics and make them extremely impactful.
Keep in mind I am NOT refering to the challenge of spell choice, character gearing, or what spells you should use to maximize damage based on said character. I think that pantheon has that sort of challenge in spades. Plenty of it. What I am talking about is the challenge of in combat decision making. How, other than the occasional RNG class mechanic does Pantheon plan to make doing damage something that is hard to master?
Edit:
@Vjek, I think what he was refering to when mentioning builders and spenders was the hope that not all resocoures generated at a fixed, guarenteed amount by pressing abilities. If it is fixed and guarenteed then you can (in advance) calculate the most optimal button sequence and will require no actual skill or strategy in the middle of the fight to maximize your damage.
As far as I am aware, the only two primary ways to increase the skill of DPS other than making ultra tight rotations is to have variable scenarios where depending on how the fight goes and how RNG favors or doesn't favor you, there are many, many different rotations that will be optimal. All based on changing variables.
Edit2: I would also like to note that this topic is strictly regarding DPS. I believe that there is enough inherant variability in healing and tanking in general that regardless of what abilities are given will allow for a variable, challenging experience that will allow people to set themselves apart from others.
"If you have more than one hotbar that defeats the purpose"
I'm not suggesting we go with infiinit abilities like a lot of MMO's simply that 10 abilities is too few. I'd even be significantly happier with 12.
Also having more than one ability bar doesn't detract from choices mattering in combat, only out.
Edit: I want to emphasize that I want what pantheon is trying to deliver on (a less spammy yet challenging combat where choices matter). It's just that from what I've seen so far from a DPS's perspective the challenge part of it just doesn't seem to be there. Also please keep in mind I am excluding threat managment and CC for the purposes of this discussion.
Slower is fine, as long as the proper RNG/Proc Mechanics or some other mechanic that allows for challenging combat. I'm all for slower game pace. I don't however want easier. If something is easy I can't stay invested in it. I know not everyone likes a challenge...But I know that lots of people do.
And adding 2-4 more abilities is not the same as other MMO's that you have 40+ abilities and 60+ keybinds. My original post wasn't even asking for more keybinds. Just simply saying that I don't see a way to keep things challenging enough for DPS to be able to set themselves apart from others with how many keybinds are currently available.
There may be plans to add an RNG or proc based system to DPS in which case we may not need more keybinds to have that in game challenge. Otherwise I think the current number of 10 is too few.
Just to throw it out there:
What if those buttons on your hotbar were dynamic and changed depending on the context of what you had targeted in the UI?
Simple concept:
Target a friendly player (or yourself)
- Hotbar dynamically changes to show your "defensive loadout" of buffs, heals, and targeted support abilities
Target an enemy
- Hotbar dynamically changes to show your "offensive loadout" of attacks, debuffs, and so on.
Target nothing
- Hotbar dynamically changes to show your "utility loadout" of various abilities
But, you could take it further.
Advanced concepts:
Targeted enemy is afflicted by a condition (e.g. stunned)
- A section of your hotbar dynamically updates to include abilities that gain a bonus from being used on stunned targets
You just used your "starter" for combo actions
- A section of your hotbar dynamically updates to include abilities that can "chain" off your last attack
Targeted player is afflicted by a condition (e.g. poisoned)
- A section of your hotbar dynamically updates to include abilities that can counteract that condition (cure poison)
You could still include limits with a dynamic hotbar where players might still have to memorize abilities before use, but making the UI more intelligent here might allow for interesting things like allowing players to access their full suite of utility abilities alongside a "loadout" of memorized offensive or defensive abilities, and not needing 3-4 different hotbars on their screen to do all that. It would also enable the idea of combos, triggers, or abilities that change based on combat states, without requiring additional hotbar space to allow players to use those things.
Just a thought.
Tigersin said:We want their game, the slower game, the game with the hotbar , but we want it different , more abilities in combat, like other mmos. What?
Haven't seen anyone asking for that, myself. Not in this thread, nor in any other. But answering only for myself, no.
I want what they've demonstrated: A limited action set, in combat.
Out of combat? I see no reason to limit anything. Cast from 10 hotbars, or your spellbook, or whatever. What does it matter, out of combat? At that point, any limitation is just adding tedium & frustration to no purpose.
I am a big proponent of dynamic/situational/bonus/group-only/contextually appropriate abilities/spells/effects/buttons. What I don't want to see, though, is a Chronicles of Spellborn / Shroud of the Avatar abomination of -random- hotkey locations for random spells/abilities. That really really needs to die the death it deserves.
I don't know, Nephele. Right now, I don't like it. A large part of me agrees with the Choice matters philosophy that kreed is arguing and regardless of what matters in or out of combat, we're asking for things that don't require us to make the tough choice of what to have on our bar. I'm still a favor of the 12 at one time and worrying about choosing the right abilities. I'll be playing with people who pick choices to compliment so, when I think of this game as playing with others, I don't see 12 being a problem... at all.
Fair enough tigersin :) I, too, agree with the principle of requiring players to choose and prepare. However, I also see the other side of this too. There's a lot of really interesting gameplay concepts you can introduce if you allow the UI to have more than 12 potential inputs without making it completely free-form selection. Situational abilities, combos, chaining, ability families and synergy and so on. That's why I proposed the idea of a dynamic hotbar or having portions of the hotbar be dynamic - it would accomplish two things, I think:
1) It changes the paradigm from "pick the 12 abilities that you think will be most important and that's all you get" to "pick the loadout of primary abilities, chain abilities, and situational abilities that you want presented to you based on what's happening in combat". It can still be set up so that players have to choose, but they won't have to sacrifice precious hotbar space to load those one or two highly situational abilities, or that combo chain that they might want to bring.
2) It solves the problem of having to give players a separate bar for out-of-combat abilities to relieve the tedium of having to constantly swap stuff in and out and makes for a cleaner UI overall.
Having more than 12 options available doesn't necessarily make combat spammy. FFXI had some of the slowest and most tactical combat of any MMO I have ever played and there was no need for a hard limit of how many abilities you could have memorized. The difference between that game and something like ... EQ2, was that there weren't a ton of fluff abilities. Warriors don't need 7 different "strike" attacks. Every ability should serve a purpose ... the strategy should come from managing resources and cooldowns. Ironically, I view "hotbar management" as playing the UI rather than playing the game. Dragging and dropping abilities on my bar in between combat doesn't sound fun at all. The idea that my character needs to memorize/forget abilities on a consistent basis is pretty immersion breaking, in my opinion.
Nephele said:Fair enough tigersin :) I, too, agree with the principle of requiring players to choose and prepare. However, I also see the other side of this too. There's a lot of really interesting gameplay concepts you can introduce if you allow the UI to have more than 12 potential inputs without making it completely free-form selection. Situational abilities, combos, chaining, ability families and synergy and so on. That's why I proposed the idea of a dynamic hotbar or having portions of the hotbar be dynamic - it would accomplish two things, I think:
1) It changes the paradigm from "pick the 12 abilities that you think will be most important and that's all you get" to "pick the loadout of primary abilities, chain abilities, and situational abilities that you want presented to you based on what's happening in combat". It can still be set up so that players have to choose, but they won't have to sacrifice precious hotbar space to load those one or two highly situational abilities, or that combo chain that they might want to bring.
2) It solves the problem of having to give players a separate bar for out-of-combat abilities to relieve the tedium of having to constantly swap stuff in and out and makes for a cleaner UI overall.
I had concern about the Dynamic Hotbar, but I think you make some great points Nephele. If it is developed well It could really open up a lot of fun game play. I don’t want to be constantly swapping out spells/abilities and I also don’t want tons of buttons/bars littering my UI.
I’m jumping on Team Dynamic!
Also, what really separates a good player from a great player is knowledge, attention to detail and alertness.
This has been discussed quite a lot before, but...
...I never had a problem with having several hotbars. As long as you don't end up with half the screen covered with them and other windows, then 24 or even more abilities is fine.
The whole concept of having to choose available abilities to prepare for particular encounters or regions or whatever doesn't really strike me as being a big plus and is often a negative.
In previous games where it's been a thing, I've simply ended up being frustrated because I've had to drop skills I really might like to use at any time, nevermind for a particular situation. I've had to drop lesser used skills in favour of the more generally useful. It greatly reduces the tactical possibilities of the moment and the challenge of knowing all my skills and which to use when in favour of an annoying choice of which fun possibilities to make unavailable at any particular time.
Also, though I know lore can be used to justify anything, it doesn't really feel like it makes sense for anything but a book-reading wizard to have to 'memorise' some stuff and 'forget' others. Does a warrior forget how to taunt a monster so he can remember how to stun with his shield? Does a cleric really lose the option to pray for a magical shield because he thinks he might need to pray for poison to be cured?
Also, the whole slotting and unslotting mostly feels like playing the UI than the game itself.
I do trust that VR will come up with a good compromise, though.
For me, it has always come down to finding a balance of proactive / reactive gameplay. Let's consider this excerpt from the FAQ:
10.4 Will multi-boxing be allowed in Pantheon?
Our reaction to multi-boxing is to try something first before we even entertain the idea of artificially restricting it. We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group.
I don't see how a limited hotbar would help realize that goal. I would argue that it actually contradicts it. The above excerpt focuses on "reactive" gameplay. If the goal is "to make combat so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial ..." -- a limited hotbar does more bad than good. While it's been stated that Pantheon won't focus on having "twitchy" combat, it does appear that players will have to navigate a steady amount of APM (Actions Per Minute) as per the design philosophy. By expanding the amount of abilities that players can use at any given time, it opens up more depth and breadth to the choices that players can make.
Whatever the desired APM ends up being, combat will be more spammy if the amount of available actions are condensed into fewer ability choices. Simple mathematics prove that you can't really have your cake and eat it too, in this scenario. I would prefer a system where every class has at least 12 "situational abilities" that have longer cooldowns, which need to be managed dynamically. If the game emphasizes preparation too much, that would make it predictable. I would rather see dynamic combat where players have to adapt to what is happening in real-time. If I have an emergency ability with a 10 minute recast, I should always have access to it. If you can consistently "predict" emergencies then that would be a sad state of affairs, in my opinion.
When I think about that quoted excerpt, and then look at the class reveal for the warrior ... I like to imagine a combat system where all of those abilities could be leveraged at any given point in time. I'd like to see NPC's throw the kitchen sink at us players and it doesn't seem possible if our ability pool is purposely gimped. When I think about the phrase "the timing of many abilities crucial" -- I'd like to see encounters where I need to time all of my abilities in order to be successful, even if that means not using that which is available in order to conserve precious resources. Reducing the number of abilities that I'm responsible for at any given point in time only serves to dumb down the potential scope of dynamic combat.
I had plenty to say on a related topic some months ago: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9899/should-spells-buffs-persist-after-removed-from-bar
"It all comes down to priorities. I explained, in detail, how there are multiple goals that have been shared for Pantheon that are on a crash collision course with each other because of the LAS, and the LAS only. (Meaningful preparation vs intense/difficult combat) -- I think the preparation phase of combat is extremely important and it's definitely something I am excited about with this game. That said, I know it's possible to have a very meaningful preparation phase outside of the confines of an LAS system. There are plenty of significant variables that can be played with when it comes to preparing for combat and the LAS just doesn't feel like something that has been "missing" from my previous MMO experiences. I played Wildstar to max level and don't remember their strictly enforced LAS being much of a factor at all. I spent plenty of time strategizing in previous games and even more time testing out the theories of those strategy sessions. When it comes to challenging content there are several factors that we can look at but I think there is a quote that really sums up my thoughts. "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
Knowledge and wisdom should both be important when it comes to overcoming challenges, but so to should execution. It helps that execution isn't something you can look up online, and in this day and age, that is more of a rule than an exception, especially if we're talking about a game with a meaningful death penalty. The combat system described in the multi-boxing excerpt sounds like something that should focus on execution more than knowledge and wisdom. While planning for the battle ahead is indeed tactical, it isn't intense. In order to achieve the ideal combat system, as it was described, we're really going to need to see an evolution to EQ style combat. We're talking about taking something from one end of the spectrum (EQ had a notorious reputation for being one of the easiest MMO's to multi-box) and putting it on the totally opposite side (making boxing extremely difficult, if not impossible) -- this is going to require consistent doses of tense moments where timing and critical decision making are the difference between victory and defeat. The combat system, as it has been described, is going to be intense, broad in scope, and highly active. In order for that to be true, we need to set the stage properly.
By limiting the maximum size of a hotbar, you're also limiting the breadth of the actions that players can make. That runs directly counter to goals related to the combat system that is described in the FAQ. While it's possible that the desired APM (Actions Per Minute) could be funneled into the LAS, we have to stop and think about what that means. When I try to do that, all I can see is a very muddy picture. The idea that 12 abilities are the maximum amount of actions that I can be responsible for, at any given moment, in an extended and intense fight, feels very limiting. That means there are less abilities that I can counter with, and less abilities that require critical timing. For me, that translates into less difficult combat, and more difficult preparation. I don't think this is necessary when there are already 4 major "Pantheon Differentiators" that will be elevating the preparation phase: Situational Gear, The Living Codex, Dispositions, and the Climate System. It's possible that the Perception feature could also tie into meaningful preparation.
Considering everything I know about Pantheon, this is not an area that I am worried about at all. I fully expect the preparation phase of combat to be an integral part of finding success in this game and that I will be "counting down" engages for all challenging encounters. Combat, on the other hand, seems different. The idea that Pantheon is going to be difficult to multi-box is more of a sad joke than something people are actually taking seriously. I would like to see that narrative change as soon as possible and believe that removing the LAS is the best way to make it happen. I want to see the world unleashed from the same restrictions that govern player behavior and turn into something much more intense, demanding, and dangerous. (If players have their scope of abilities limited, so to must the development team while designing encounters, to compensate.) Access to more abilities (with conditional logic), more temporary buffs (with longer cooldowns), and more potential for errors that lead to consequences. That would make multi-boxing difficult, in my opinion. Well ... that and XP Chains / Skill Chains."
I'm not a fan of what I have seen thus far and hope that the LAS gets scrapped. Multi-boxing is antithetical to the overarching spirit and vision of this game.
I think making combat so incredibly complicated for the sole purpose of disincentivizing multi-boxing is a huge mistake.
If you don't want multi-boxing, prevent multi-boxing. Don't make a game that is tedious to play as a single player as the solution to not wanting multi-boxing
I guess to expand upon my point, there is a very fine line between complication and intricacy as challenge and complication and intricacy as tedium. I don't believe the majority of players of a game want the challenge to come from things simply being complicated and intricate. There is no intrinsic value to having to press a lot of buttons during combat versus having only a limited number of buttons to press. Having to press more buttons limits the playability of the game. More is almost never better in this situation.
I thought the debate here was how many abilities are available at once to be used? Which is why the discussion is centering around a 12-button hotbar vs several hotbars with dozens of buttons.
I don't really have a firm opinion over whether or not characters should have a handful of ranked abilities or dozens of separate abilities (though I do tend to prefer fewer and more focused abilities). What I don't want to see is combat being based around having 48 or more abilities on hotkeys at any given time and requiring me to know which of the thousands of possible cominations of abilities is best to use in any individual fight. That isn't challenge. That is tedium.
my typical keybinds in mmos:
erqfzxcvtgb12345
all the shift variations
control 123qezxc
alt 123qezxc
targeting is usually handled with tilde, tab f1-f12 keys (using a razer naga you can also expand keybinds with numpad with the shift alt and control variation for additional binds)
it's very important for a pvper to be able to move while casting and being adaptable without having to preplan bar setups. i prefer to have options rather than bottle necked at 12 bars.
Chanus said:I thought the debate here was how many abilities are available at once to be used? Which is why the discussion is centering around a 12-button hotbar vs several hotbars with dozens of buttons.
I don't really have a firm opinion over whether or not characters should have a handful of ranked abilities or dozens of separate abilities (though I do tend to prefer fewer and more focused abilities). What I don't want to see is combat being based around having 48 or more abilities on hotkeys at any given time and requiring me to know which of the thousands of possible cominations of abilities is best to use in any individual fight. That isn't challenge. That is tedium.
when i played a healer in classic wow it was more about being efficient with your healing and mana management. i was using zxcv for healing z being my most efficient and v being my big boy heal. instant cast healing on e or q, r was some type of buffer. f was for an aoe heal, big boy aoe heal, etc etc.
i'd just like more tools to be able to act and react quickly. more keybinds more SPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEED.
It's interesting you say that (Chanus) because "challenge" was recently defined in a newsletter:
"But with Pantheon, our philosophy of challenge puts less burden on nimble fingers and more on what we call strategic depth: designing gameplay around a longer-term curve that asks players to make decisions not based purely on reaction time, but by increasing players long-term reward or lowering their long-term risk based on a growing knowledge of the game."
Knowing the optimal combination of abilities that should be used for any individual fight is something that players can look up on a website. The desired APM can remain the exact same regardless of whether or not our hotbars are limited. Knowing the optimal ability to use at any given point in time (with all of them being available) is a matter of execution. The more possible combinations that are available, the more likelihood there is that someone can make a mistake. (This can be offset by experience ... or a growing knowledge of the game.) If the burden of challenge is placed on being "proactive" rather than "reactive" that only incentivizes players to look up a guide (which there will be plenty of, for every class, and for every boss) -- with a more expansive action set, and assuming a static level of desired APM, it's about having a nimble mind rather than nimble fingers. I just prefer challenge to be more focused on execution than planning.