Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Concern Regarding Number of Abilities

    • 54 posts
    June 2, 2019 9:16 PM PDT

    Hey all,

    Just going to post this quote that sums um my worries in a much better way than I did.

    oneADseven said:

    For me, it has always come down to finding a balance of proactive / reactive gameplay.  Let's consider this excerpt from the FAQ:

     

    10.4 Will multi-boxing be allowed in Pantheon?

    Our reaction to multi-boxing is to try something first before we even entertain the idea of artificially restricting it.  We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group.

     

    I don't see how a limited hotbar would help realize that goal.  I would argue that it actually contradicts it.   The above excerpt focuses on "reactive" gameplay.  If the goal is "to make combat so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial ..."  --  a limited hotbar does more bad than good.  While it's been stated that Pantheon won't focus on having "twitchy" combat, it does appear that players will have to navigate a steady amount of APM (Actions Per Minute) as per the design philosophy.  By expanding the amount of abilities that players can use at any given time, it opens up more depth and breadth to the choices that players can make.

    Whatever the desired APM ends up being, combat will be more spammy if the amount of available actions are condensed into fewer ability choices.  Simple mathematics prove that you can't really have your cake and eat it too, in this scenario.  I would prefer a system where every class has at least 12 "situational abilities" that have longer cooldowns, which need to be managed dynamically.  If the game emphasizes preparation too much, that would make it predictable.  I would rather see dynamic combat where players have to adapt to what is happening in real-time.  If I have an emergency ability with a 10 minute recast, I should always have access to it.  If you can consistently "predict" emergencies then that would be a sad state of affairs, in my opinion.

    When I think about that quoted excerpt, and then look at the class reveal for the warrior ... I like to imagine a combat system where all of those abilities could be leveraged at any given point in time.  I'd like to see NPC's throw the kitchen sink at us players and it doesn't seem possible if our ability pool is purposely gimped.  When I think about the phrase "the timing of many abilities crucial"  --  I'd like to see encounters where I need to time all of my abilities in order to be successful, even if that means not using that which is available in order to conserve precious resources.  Reducing the number of abilities that I'm responsible for at any given point in time only serves to dumb down the potential scope of dynamic combat.

    I had plenty to say on a related topic some months ago:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9899/should-spells-buffs-persist-after-removed-from-bar

     

    "It all comes down to priorities.  I explained, in detail, how there are multiple goals that have been shared for Pantheon that are on a crash collision course with each other because of the LAS, and the LAS only.  (Meaningful preparation vs intense/difficult combat)  --  I think the preparation phase of combat is extremely important and it's definitely something I am excited about with this game.  That said, I know it's possible to have a very meaningful preparation phase outside of the confines of an LAS system.  There are plenty of significant variables that can be played with when it comes to preparing for combat and the LAS just doesn't feel like something that has been "missing" from my previous MMO experiences.  I played Wildstar to max level and don't remember their strictly enforced LAS being much of a factor at all.  I spent plenty of time strategizing in previous games and even more time testing out the theories of those strategy sessions.  When it comes to challenging content there are several factors that we can look at but I think there is a quote that really sums up my thoughts.  "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.  Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."

    Knowledge and wisdom should both be important when it comes to overcoming challenges, but so to should execution.  It helps that execution isn't something you can look up online, and in this day and age, that is more of a rule than an exception, especially if we're talking about a game with a meaningful death penalty.  The combat system described in the multi-boxing excerpt sounds like something that should focus on execution more than knowledge and wisdom.  While planning for the battle ahead is indeed tactical, it isn't intense.  In order to achieve the ideal combat system, as it was described, we're really going to need to see an evolution to EQ style combat.  We're talking about taking something from one end of the spectrum (EQ had a notorious reputation for being one of the easiest MMO's to multi-box) and putting it on the totally opposite side (making boxing extremely difficult, if not impossible)  --  this is going to require consistent doses of tense moments where timing and critical decision making are the difference between victory and defeat.  The combat system, as it has been described, is going to be intense, broad in scope, and highly active.  In order for that to be true, we need to set the stage properly.

    By limiting the maximum size of a hotbar, you're also limiting the breadth of the actions that players can make.  That runs directly counter to goals related to the combat system that is described in the FAQ.  While it's possible that the desired APM (Actions Per Minute) could be funneled into the LAS, we have to stop and think about what that means.  When I try to do that, all I can see is a very muddy picture.  The idea that 12 abilities are the maximum amount of actions that I can be responsible for, at any given moment, in an extended and intense fight, feels very limiting.  That means there are less abilities that I can counter with, and less abilities that require critical timing.  For me, that translates into less difficult combat, and more difficult preparation.  I don't think this is necessary when there are already 4 major "Pantheon Differentiators" that will be elevating the preparation phase:  Situational Gear, The Living Codex, Dispositions, and the Climate System.  It's possible that the Perception feature could also tie into meaningful preparation.

    Considering everything I know about Pantheon, this is not an area that I am worried about at all.  I fully expect the preparation phase of combat to be an integral part of finding success in this game and that I will be "counting down" engages for all challenging encounters.  Combat, on the other hand, seems different.  The idea that Pantheon is going to be difficult to multi-box is more of a sad joke than something people are actually taking seriously.  I would like to see that narrative change as soon as possible and believe that removing the LAS is the best way to make it happen.  I want to see the world unleashed from the same restrictions that govern player behavior and turn into something much more intense, demanding, and dangerous.  (If players have their scope of abilities limited, so to must the development team while designing encounters, to compensate.)  Access to more abilities (with conditional logic), more temporary buffs (with longer cooldowns), and more potential for errors that lead to consequences.  That would make multi-boxing difficult, in my opinion.  Well ... that and XP Chains / Skill Chains."

    I'm not a fan of what I have seen thus far and hope that the LAS gets scrapped.  Multi-boxing is antithetical to the overarching spirit and vision of this game.

     

    It has been a while since I have posted but have been lurking. Something that I have been thinking a lot about recently when talking to people about Pantheon is my concern for number of abilities that can be used at any given time. Does this concern anyone else? Below I'll list a few random thoughts I have about it. 

    - I'm not too concerned from a Tank or Healer perspective, as you simply don't need as many buttons to keep things challenging.

    - When doing damage as a DPS in an encounter, with CC and threat management aside, how do you pack much skill into so few buttons? Although I really like the idea of not being so heavily 'rotation focused' so that it is less about having a tight rotation and more about having meaningful choices via limited resources, how do you actually accomplish this? There can be a little bit of skill in saving some resource for the 'hard' parts of the fight but other than that how does someone with equal gear outshine a player who doesn't have the same aptitude? 

    - I like limited buttons, I like having to choose what skills to have for any particular dungeon or encounter but is the current number the right one? I would honestly be a lot less worried if the number of abilities was capped to something like 12-14.

     

    I apologize in advance if there is another topic specifically addressing number of abilities regarding a DPS class.

    This post was a bit of a ramble but for some reason I am worried about it enough to make it. I really want pantheon to succeed and want there to be enough challenge to keep players occupied for years to come!


    This post was edited by Nubi at June 5, 2019 3:43 AM PDT
    • 520 posts
    June 2, 2019 9:51 PM PDT

    I'm totally fine with 12-14 - which is good number. I just hope they won't reduce it to like 8 with a thought of future possible expansion for other consoles.

    • 124 posts
    June 3, 2019 12:35 AM PDT

    I'm not concerned at all.

    The main switch when EQ2 came out was the ability to add more than 8? spells on my hotbar. Sure it was handy and nice, and you always had a spell or ability you could use. But at the same time, you didnt have to plan anything ahead, didn't have to learn the zones and prepare. You could just leroy in and make the best of it. That is a part i have been missing in every MMO that came after EQ. so if you ask me. Keep it to a bare minimum, forcing you to chose your spells wisely or risk having to switch it mid fight.

     


    This post was edited by decarsul at June 3, 2019 12:36 AM PDT
    • 245 posts
    June 3, 2019 5:43 AM PDT

    12 would be ideal you say? Well then you're in luck. Pantheon has always had 12 abilities available on the limited hotbar.

     


    This post was edited by Ezrael at June 3, 2019 5:45 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    June 3, 2019 7:04 AM PDT

    More is certainly better, in my experience.  I'm fine with the 12, but I hope they'll use the Vanguard feature of dynamic temporary abilities either while grouped, or encounter specific, or zone specific, or a wide choice of other options.
    Recently, I tried to go back to ESO, and I found the lack of quantity in abilities so restrictive, I un-installed it.  Same goes for quite a number of modern MMO's, in particular Neverwinter Undermountain (the most recent expansion) where they made some significant positive changes to classes, but again, are trying to be console/twitch-player/FPS friendly, and it's just silly.  It's bad enough you press 2-3 keys per encounter, and it's over in less than 5 seconds.  6 seconds per round? 3 seconds per swift action?  Nope!

    When you look at games like Divinity Original Sin 1/2, Pillars of Eternity/Deadfire, Pathfinder: Kingmaker and similar, the number of abilities is really limited by your playstyle, not the game. They have hundreds of spells, skills, potions, scrolls, abilities, charged items, enchanted items, whatever.  For me, that's a significant part of the game, and these modern MMOs that just discard all that, it seems a poor design choice.
    More (choice) is better! :)

    • 297 posts
    June 3, 2019 7:29 AM PDT

    12 at a time with the ability to save sets you can swap between (maybe with some kind of mem time delay) is ideal to me.

    The current MMO system of having pages and pages of hotkeys open at all times is just obnoxious more than anything.

    • 93 posts
    June 3, 2019 9:50 AM PDT
    This is a subject I am passionate about. I would favor more than12 active skills but I don’t want unlimited like EQ2 does. I would prefer around 16 active abilities plus another side bar with 8 more slots but those could only be used for buffs, gate, bind, ports, mount, etc. I don’t want to be swapping skills to my main bar every time I run across a mob with a different disposition or having to swap when someone in my party needs a buff refresh. I’d be ok if I could set my bar(s) once per play session and feel confident that I had everything I’d need ready to go for that play session.
    • 372 posts
    June 3, 2019 9:55 AM PDT

    Remember that you can probably buff your party and then change out those spells before the fight.  So you might be using more than 12 skills at a time.  Right?  Sounds right.  It might be right. 

    • 627 posts
    June 3, 2019 10:14 AM PDT
    Personality i Hope to see a out of combat skill bar for buffs and other utility. That way healers dont need to swap in and out all the time. Witch to me can end in tedious and repetative gameplay.

    If a healer wants to make sure to have a specific buff ready in fights then he still have the option to load it to the standart skillbar.
    • 1428 posts
    June 3, 2019 10:15 AM PDT

    i prefer more buttons in the spirit of decision making.

     

    instead of having 1 spell for cc i have 5 ranks.  the lower costing cc last for a shorter time.  the higher ranks last longer and cost more mana.

     

    i know that we can kill these mobs in 10 secs so i'll use a cheaper costing cc for the mobs.  we pulled 3 extra ones so now i need to use my higher ranks to cc since it'll take more time for us to clear.

    • 1399 posts
    June 3, 2019 10:35 AM PDT

    I'll reserve opinion on this until I get into at least Alpha if not Beta and actually get to see how it feels/plays. 

    • 1428 posts
    June 3, 2019 10:37 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    12 would be ideal you say? Well then you're in luck. Pantheon has always had 12 abilities available on the limited hotbar.

     

    if it were EA they'd have a cash shop to buy additional hotkey bars >.>

    • 2752 posts
    June 3, 2019 10:48 AM PDT

    NubileThighGaps said:

    - When doing damage as a DPS in an encounter, with CC and threat management aside, how do you pack much skill into so few buttons? Although I really like the idea of not being so heavily 'rotation focused' so that it is less about having a tight rotation and more about having meaningful choices via limited resources, how do you actually accomplish this? There can be a little bit of skill in saving some resource for the 'hard' parts of the fight but other than that how does someone with equal gear outshine a player who doesn't have the same aptitude? 

    - I like limited buttons, I like having to choose what skills to have for any particular dungeon or encounter but is the current number the right one? I would honestly be a lot less worried if the number of abilities was capped to something like 12-14.

    I know I've said it somewhere before but my basic feeling on this is that we really need to get away from the builder/spender active ability paradigm. If DPS classes in particular are set up as builders and spenders then it will boil down to fairly basic optimal rotations for any given fight, very predictable and mindless in short time. 

     

    I feel building class resources should almost entirely be decoupled from active abilities and should be passive chance or variable generation, such that you can't know "in 5 seconds I will have enough for X ability if I spend to use Y ability now." We need to make spending resources require actual forethought and potential trade offs. 

    • 1428 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:01 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    NubileThighGaps said:

    - When doing damage as a DPS in an encounter, with CC and threat management aside, how do you pack much skill into so few buttons? Although I really like the idea of not being so heavily 'rotation focused' so that it is less about having a tight rotation and more about having meaningful choices via limited resources, how do you actually accomplish this? There can be a little bit of skill in saving some resource for the 'hard' parts of the fight but other than that how does someone with equal gear outshine a player who doesn't have the same aptitude? 

    - I like limited buttons, I like having to choose what skills to have for any particular dungeon or encounter but is the current number the right one? I would honestly be a lot less worried if the number of abilities was capped to something like 12-14.

    I know I've said it somewhere before but my basic feeling on this is that we really need to get away from the builder/spender active ability paradigm. If DPS classes in particular are set up as builders and spenders then it will boil down to fairly basic optimal rotations for any given fight, very predictable and mindless in short time. 

     

    I feel building class resources should almost entirely be decoupled from active abilities and should be passive chance or variable generation, such that you can't know "in 5 seconds I will have enough for X ability if I spend to use Y ability now." We need to make spending resources require actual forethought and potential trade offs. 

     

    passive chance as in rng?  the builder and spender paradigm is fine.  if you are looking for additional playstyle then cooldown management could be another way to go.  i haven't seen a good implementation of a combo system.  for example a combo class would be a monk.  must cast punch punch then gain access to grapple (good against smaller mobs) or kick kick gain access to round house kick (good against larger mobs)  that would require forethought, but the trade off is you need to be knowledgeable about the timing and mob types.

    • 2752 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:13 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    passive chance as in rng?  the builder and spender paradigm is fine.  if you are looking for additional playstyle then cooldown management could be another way to go.  i haven't seen a good implementation of a combo system.  for example a combo class would be a monk.  must cast punch punch then gain access to grapple (good against smaller mobs) or kick kick gain access to round house kick (good against larger mobs)  that would require forethought, but the trade off is you need to be knowledgeable about the timing and mob types.

    Passive chance like: each auto attack hit on an enemy for the monk generates x resource.

     

    Cooldown management and combos don't really break up the rotation based play that becomes rather mindless. Even with the more complicated rotations (for some classes) in something like FFXIV it became rather mindless and dull.

    • 1281 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:27 AM PDT

    Knowing that I am in the minority on this, I'm not really a big fan of melee characters having a lot of buttons to click. I’d rather have fewer abilities that just get updated as you gain levels. 4 or 5 ability types per melee class is enough for me. I'd rather have new types of abilities added, than have the same type of ability given a new name because it's more powerful.

    I think activated abilities and spells are different. I know some people see them as the same.

     


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at June 3, 2019 11:29 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:28 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    stellarmind said:

    passive chance as in rng?  the builder and spender paradigm is fine.  if you are looking for additional playstyle then cooldown management could be another way to go.  i haven't seen a good implementation of a combo system.  for example a combo class would be a monk.  must cast punch punch then gain access to grapple (good against smaller mobs) or kick kick gain access to round house kick (good against larger mobs)  that would require forethought, but the trade off is you need to be knowledgeable about the timing and mob types.

    Passive chance like: each auto attack hit on an enemy for the monk generates x resource.

     

    Cooldown management and combos don't really break up the rotation based play that becomes rather mindless. Even with the more complicated rotations (for some classes) in something like FFXIV it became rather mindless and dull.

     

    that exists already for the warrior archtype XD  you can actually have your auto attack miss, dodge or parry in which case you don't build resource.  depending on how hard you hit in your range lets say 5-10 damage.  if you hit low then you generate less resource.  if you hit hard and crit you double your resource.  well in today's modern mmos you don' even notice it anymore since the numbers are super inflated and they give you way more than what you need to make thoughtful decisions.  a sad story really. 

     

    you could make it where auto attacks don't exist and you actually have to smash a button to do a basic attack to build resource.

     

    as a side note alot of mmos today are very mindless and dull which gameplay.  you could script a macro that does everything.  i think that's why the wow community is so hard on for classic.  it had personal management for your class.  the current iteration of wow (as with many current mmos) the game manages you.

    • 13 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:31 AM PDT
    I too would prefer something higher. But it's hard to say until I experience the game myself. I hope there's extra bars that you can use for items and consumables.
    • 297 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:34 AM PDT

    For what it's worth I've never really experienced a robust combat system in a video game that actually felt good and intuitive. Mashing more buttons doesn't really make combat feel better, just more tedious.

    • 1428 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:35 AM PDT

    Nelar said: I too would prefer something higher. But it's hard to say until I experience the game myself. I hope there's extra bars that you can use for items and consumables.

     

    EA: sure will give you an extra bar for 5 USD.  we are offering a special ui class specific action bar for an additional 2 USD.  if you want the chroma package it's an low low cost of 3 USD.

    this is just for one character and is not account wide and will be tax. 

    • 1428 posts
    June 3, 2019 11:46 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    For what it's worth I've never really experienced a robust combat system in a video game that actually felt good and intuitive. Mashing more buttons doesn't really make combat feel better, just more tedious.

     

    that's because most games don't factor into the current state of the mob.  they are either alive or dead.  take black desert online for example.  the current state of the mob with certain skills will either do increase damage or normal damage.

    if the target is in the floating state, air attacks do more damage but if you do a down attack then it does normal damage.

    if the target is in a down state, down attacks do more damage and floating would to normal.

     

    you see if they made it where it the penalites were put in place like doing an air attack during a down state did no damage,  people would actually think about it.  also the game is pretty dynasty warrior esqe unless you pvp with someone with equal gear you'll notice these things.  the system is there and it's not really highlighted since there isn't a downside for making the wrong decision.

    • 297 posts
    June 3, 2019 12:00 PM PDT

    stellarmind said:that's because most games don't factor into the current state of the mob.  they are either alive or dead.  take black desert online for example.  the current state of the mob with certain skills will either do increase damage or normal damage.

    if the target is in the floating state, air attacks do more damage but if you do a down attack then it does normal damage.

    if the target is in a down state, down attacks do more damage and floating would to normal.

     

    you see if they made it where it the penalites were put in place like doing an air attack during a down state did no damage,  people would actually think about it.  also the game is pretty dynasty warrior esqe unless you pvp with someone with equal gear you'll notice these things.  the system is there and it's not really highlighted since there isn't a downside for making the wrong decision.

    I think the Disposition System they've described is a good implementation of something like this. It's not too complicated but it does offer different tactical choices and opporunities for engaging with the same encounter multiple times.

    Honestly, I can't stand a complicated system where I have to both have the correct buttons for the encounter but also focus entirely on making sure I'm pressing the correct button in an ever-changing combat state where I have to pay complete attention at all times. That's just tedious and obnoxious. It works okay for, say, a section of a raid fight. If every instance of combat is like that, I would rather go fishing.

    • 1428 posts
    June 3, 2019 12:15 PM PDT

    Chanus said:

    stellarmind said:that's because most games don't factor into the current state of the mob.  they are either alive or dead.  take black desert online for example.  the current state of the mob with certain skills will either do increase damage or normal damage.

    if the target is in the floating state, air attacks do more damage but if you do a down attack then it does normal damage.

    if the target is in a down state, down attacks do more damage and floating would to normal.

     

    you see if they made it where it the penalites were put in place like doing an air attack during a down state did no damage,  people would actually think about it.  also the game is pretty dynasty warrior esqe unless you pvp with someone with equal gear you'll notice these things.  the system is there and it's not really highlighted since there isn't a downside for making the wrong decision.

    I think the Disposition System they've described is a good implementation of something like this. It's not too complicated but it does offer different tactical choices and opporunities for engaging with the same encounter multiple times.

    Honestly, I can't stand a complicated system where I have to both have the correct buttons for the encounter but also focus entirely on making sure I'm pressing the correct button in an ever-changing combat state where I have to pay complete attention at all times. That's just tedious and obnoxious. It works okay for, say, a section of a raid fight. If every instance of combat is like that, I would rather go fishing.

     

    yea i agree.  bdo is action based so it feels something between a mmo and a fighting game so it works.

    it's primarly why i stopped raiding just because the game is forcing you to dance they way they want you to dance.

    imagine of the raid bosses learned from fighting raids.  say the boss raged at 60% hp and realizes that tanks were using their defensive abilities.  the next time you'd fight the boss it would soft rage at 60% until it dropped to 55% then go back to normal and full rage at 40%.  that would be pretty wild.  adapt to the adaptors.

    • 54 posts
    June 3, 2019 12:39 PM PDT

    Thanks for all the responses, I'm glad others have thought about this a lot too.

     

    It does look like most people are okay with what they have planned. Which is good, I especially agree with Iskar with moving away from the builders spender, however I still don't really see how you make doing damage CHALLENGING without said tight rotations-- At least enough to allow people to set themselves apart from others with less skill. For me this is very important and what drives me to want to succeed, play and get better. 

    If I only have 8-10 abilities that are designed for damage, of course there will be an optimal rotation (unless a lot of RNG, proc wise is thrown into the mix--which I am a huge fan of RNG based rotations) Anyone can do an easy rotation with 95% effectivness of the best players in the world. It's when the rotations get harder, either due to split decision making or RNG that it allows people to actually be challenged and be able to set themselves apart. 

    Say I was given an 8 button rotation that doesn't have much RNG and was given a quick flowchart of optimal DPS button pressing. I could probably within an hour or so, maybe less, don nearly as much damage as someone who was PERFECT at doing damage with those abilities. I strongly hope that at least some of the classes or all will allow for a true mastery of that class. Not just mastery before combat (I.E. Which buttons to put on your bar) but mastery in combat itself. I really hope I get to group with someone one day and think to myself (wow he's doing a lot of damage even though his gear is XYZ).

     

    P.S. I don't consider auto-attack to be an ability

    • 31 posts
    June 3, 2019 1:15 PM PDT

    I'm not concerned with too few abilities. The way I see it, few active abilities makes you have to think ahead and plan. It removes some of the facerolling, button smashing out of the equation. Looking back at games I've played and games I currently play, few is better. It gives me the chance to account for gear, passive abilities, and racials. Having 7 to 10 active abilities is much more comfortable to learn than having 24 or more icons spread across my screen.