Instead of a tutorial I am of the opinion that a manual of commands, function keys, and methods of pre programming computer keys would benefit the slightly computer impaired players as well as newbes to MMOs.
Combat skills can be learned by experience and so can the dynamics of grouping
We do not need to stereotype players with a preconcieved notion of how to play based on a tutorial imprint but to let them see for themselves the impact of their playing techniques on their peers in a group and the reactions that are generated.
stellarmind said:EppE said:Valorous1 said:Ok, I made a mistake and got confused by 'tutorial'. I was thinking like should there be helpful tips for some reason, which yes i think they should have. I think there should be a tiny walkthough for each new starting character, but not a tutorial like Mines of Gloomingdeep in EQ.
Look I'm pro tutorial and I don't want the Mines of Gloomingdeep or EQ2 noob island either. I think there is room for some middle ground here.
the way you gotta sell it is like this:
look devs, how much does it cost to make a tutorial similar to noob island? 60k-100k USD? will game mechanics be something that is so complicated it will turn players away? approx. less than 1%. what is your loss value if you didn't have a tutorial? let's be generous and say we'll have 1 million players at launch. rounding up would be 10,000 players with 60 USD per copy of game = 600,000k. the tutorial would definitely have paid for itself, but your looking at: is it worth the capital?
let's say the avg gamer after 3 months of play will decide whether they want to continue or not. without testing you drop 20% player base drops out because the game is broken. that's a potential 3mil USD potential income per month.
if you invested 60k-100k USD you could hire 2-4 people to test, which will be direct contact with player rentention. this would maybe help you retain an additional 10%. that's 1.5 mil USD you'll be making a month.
in summary, taking the money and spending it towards testing would be more profitable than using it to make a tutorial.
I get where you are going with that Stellarmind but that is a really flawed model.
1) A tutorial is going to be valuable to over 10% of new players not less than 1% as only those who have played EQ would find no need for it and at max EQ capped out at 700k subscribers. I still think it would be beneficial even for some of those players as it has been a decade or more since they played EQ.
2) There will already be a significant QA team internal to VR and 100s of PA testers and 1000s of Alpha and Beta testers. 2-4 additional testers for the months of work it takes to assemble a tutorial zone and scripts would be virtually negligible.
3) Even if you do not agree with the above then consider the time it takes to make the 40th zone vs a pre character creation tutorial. It will easily take more time to make the 40th zone then a small tutorial sequence. The payout between 1 tutorial sequence and 39 zones is far superior to no tutorial and 40 zones.
4) The assumption that the 10,000 (100,000-300,000 is more accurate out of 1 million interested users in my opinion) players base game purchases as the only financial gain is also flawed as all of the subscription revenue that they generate should also be directly attributed to the tutorials effect as they would never have bought and transitioned to a paying player.
5) Monthly subscription is not going to be $30, I would be surprised if it’s even $20 when subbed a year at a time.
6) As word of mouth grows about how INCREDIBLE Pantheon is we will get many true newbies giving Pantheon a try. So any investment in a tutorial to transition Non-Eq players into Pantheon players will continue to pay dividends for years.
From a business sense an effective tutorial is an absolute no brainer. Almost as important as advertising. In fact a tutorial is really the final step of advertising.
From a game play feel I can understand the concept of “school of hard knocks” being the best teacher. I would be more on board with that concept if it were a game like Dark Souls or I think what Tanix refers to as a Rogue like game but in an MMO where getting people in and addictedly enjoying the game, reducing the obstacles (oh dear, dangerous choice of words) to go from confused newbie to engaged low level player is preferred. A tutorial is there to get new users in the right frame of reference to appreciate the game.
Trasak said:From a game play feel I can understand the concept of “school of hard knocks” being the best teacher. I would be more on board with that concept if it were a game like Dark Souls or I think what Tanix refers to as a Rogue like game but in an MMO where getting people in and addictedly enjoying the game, reducing the obstacles (oh dear, dangerous choice of words) to go from confused newbie to engaged low level player is preferred. A tutorial is there to get new users in the right frame of reference to appreciate the game.
VR and this game isn't going to survive if those of us on the forums are the only ones who play it. There is no reason to not have an inviting first step into the game. You want people to feel welcome. We don't need a bunch of elitist people standing around going "if you can't figure out the chat channel you don't deserve to play our game". Its possible to lose out on very potential loyal fans because their first experience with the game was a bad one.
I keep coming back to "how does this negatively impact your gaming experience?"
Something else to consider. When EQ came out there wasn't a lot of competition. We endured the shitty parts of it because nothing else was competiting with it. That's not the case now. I don't care how much people claim that the rewards will be worth the challenge, if it's frustrating I have other options to play as does everyone else. That's not to say I can't endure challenges and hardships, but poor game design for the sake of raising the gateway to enter will drive me and others off.
stellarmind said:everyone hates advertising. we'd all skip it if we could, just like tutorials. intergrated tooltips is all you need.
Actually lately I've been watching tutorials in games I play. Yeah I'm going to know 90% of what I'm told but what about that 10%? How long would it have taken me to figure out, if at all?
EppE said:stellarmind said:everyone hates advertising. we'd all skip it if we could, just like tutorials. intergrated tooltips is all you need.
Actually lately I've been watching tutorials in games I play. Yeah I'm going to know 90% of what I'm told but what about that 10%? How long would it have taken me to figure out, if at all?
my point exactly. why cough up money to make a tutorial when someone out there is going to make a tutorial/guide for free and you'd be giving someone an opportunity to make money.
besides it's an mmo. if i'm so much of a potato i'm going to ask trade chat cuz general chat is for trolls.
stellarmind said:everyone hates advertising. we'd all skip it if we could, just like tutorials. intergrated tooltips is all you need.
We are obviously not the target for VR's advertisement or any tutorial them might create. You may only need tool tips but thats not how everyone best takes in information. VR is very aware of the value of advertisement and the Streamers program indicates. In fact many of the people they are attempting to reach through CohhCarnage are players who never played EQ or Vanguard. Those are the people that will benefit the most from a tutorial and they will frankly need those perspective customers to keep the company running and to pay off investors.
Mod Edit: Removed quoted image that was moderated as per the guidelines.
People talk about the cost of a tutorial. But the cost will be nominal if it is the same for all classes and just needs to be developed once.
Whether it is a short guide to basic commands (valuable more for letting people figure out how things work on their own without pressure to hurry hurry hurry becasue other people are trying to talk to them, invite them to groups, invite them to guilds, etc) or a larger guide that also includes what the classes do and what roles are it cannot possibly be a huge expense to do it once. And if it encourages even 10% of the people trying the game and deciding whether to subscribe it will pay for itself very fast.
I don't consider a starter island at all the same as a tutorial. That would take more time to develop, but given the basic structure of Terminus I don't see the logic to having people of all races pop into the world in a single location.
People talk about the lack of need for a tutorial because the internet will be full of them quickly enough. I disagree entirely. Many potential subscribers will see some link to the game and come over to take a look *without* having done any research.
Just as importantly, reading about how something works or seeing a video of someone *else* playing is very far indeed from having the chance to do it yourself.
dorotea said:People talk about the cost of a tutorial. But the cost will be nominal if it is the same for all classes and just needs to be developed once.
Whether it is a short guide to basic commands (valuable more for letting people figure out how things work on their own without pressure to hurry hurry hurry becasue other people are trying to talk to them, invite them to groups, invite them to guilds, etc) or a larger guide that also includes what the classes do and what roles are it cannot possibly be a huge expense to do it once. And if it encourages even 10% of the people trying the game and deciding whether to subscribe it will pay for itself very fast.
I don't consider a starter island at all the same as a tutorial. That would take more time to develop, but given the basic structure of Terminus I don't see the logic to having people of all races pop into the world in a single location.
People talk about the lack of need for a tutorial because the internet will be full of them quickly enough. I disagree entirely. Many potential subscribers will see some link to the game and come over to take a look *without* having done any research.
Just as importantly, reading about how something works or seeing a video of someone *else* playing is very far indeed from having the chance to do it yourself.
It is certainly not a nominal cost or process in my opinion.
Though if it is that easy for you, I assume you could contract Pantheon to do it, for a "nominal" fee?
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Should Pantheon have a tutorial and if so, what would you like to see included? Please explain your answer. #MMORPG #communitymatters
Do we HAVE to build the tutorial INTO the game? Why can it not just be an OPTIONAL video link built into the game launcher.
Anyone who wants a quick tutorial can watch video on the game site or youtube. No need to spend time and resources on In Game hand holding.
It will be 2020-2022 before this game is live. I think people know how to mmo by now. if not, they could watch ANY of the 5-6 streams that have been done to know MORE than enough to get started.
don't waste time on this. make a quick youtube video and be done with it. I'd like to play the game before 2025 ....
IMHO there are only a couple of major things that need to be explained for new players which require a tortorial.
1. How to interact with NPCs should be explained. If Pantheon uses a system like most modern mmo's where its right click then left click on the highlighted text then its a short tortorial. However if Pantheon uses a system like EQ where the player had to /Hail and then say the correct word/ phrase to continue the process of obtaining the quest, then this will need to be explained. I remember playing EQ and trying to learn how that system worked, when I moved to WoW in 2004 I remember thinking how much simpler the system was. Im not opposed to the old EQ style in anyway, but players who don't have any experience with that method of quest giving will need an explaination.
2. I think that most players understand how to use WASD and the arrow keys to move but this should be explained for those few people who are completely new to the genere.
3. I think there needs to be a tutorial dedicated to: Weapon skills, magic based skills (conjuratio, abjuration... etc). Resources such as mana, stamina, health... ETC will need to be explained. Meditation will also need to be explained. Most modern MMO players that have joined the genre in the last 7 or so years have had limited expirence with these systems because most games have removed this "complication". I really miss these skills because they add an additional level of character connection, as well as more "realness" to the game.
There are a few systems that will need tutorials but these can be intergrated through a quest series. These include:
1. The Preception System will need a tutorial. How does it work, how do you level it up, what can you get from leveling it up, are there any pereception rewards such as curancy that can be spent at vendors and where are these vendors located... etc.
2. Dynamic Weather will also need a breif explanition. It would be nice for players to be able to get a breif run down of the different types of weather and their effects before encountering them in "wild". It would also probably be a good idea to give a breif rundown of the climate acclimation system. This could be done through a quest or group of quests.
There are also a couple of other things that will need to be explained about Race and Class choice and these can be done during the character creation process.
Races will need to have a description of their racial benefits including: stat bonuses, extra damage vs certain enemies, resistance bonuses, aditional weapon skill/ magic skill bonuses, as well as any other special racial abilites.
Classes will also need to have a description that incluedes: Primary role, primary armor type, avaiable weapon types, enemy types the class is good aginst (such as the cleric vs undead), their alternative resource, and their primary stats requirements.
The last thing that needs to be explained are stats and what they effect. There are 8 stats in this game Strength, Stamina, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility, Intelect, Wisidom, and Chrisma. I would also assume that Luck might also make an apperance in the game, but be tied to the perception system. Most modern MMOs don't use 8 stats and depending on the game some of these stats ( such as Stamina/Constitution and Dexterity/Agility) are often one in the same. I did some research to understand the differences before writing this, but most normal players are not going to do this. Players who don't have expirence with EQ/Vangard or DND will be at a loss.
FlushingToiletScreamingShower said: I get it, veteran gamers are not gonna be told how to play the game. But a tutorial is the best opportunity to immerse you in a new world, describe the setting and current events and give you a purpose and a reason to give a damn.
I disagree, I think the best way to immerse yourself in the world is to not be told how to play where you must enter the world, explore, experiment and learn the world yourself.
FlushingToiletScreamingShower said: I get it, veteran gamers are not gonna be told how to play the game. But a tutorial is the best opportunity to immerse you in a new world, describe the setting and current events and give you a purpose and a reason to give a damn.
Veteran gamer here and I love tutorials. Now being that I will see beta before hand I won't need a tutorial but I will do it anyway for 2 reasons. First to give VR feedback. Second because you never know what you miss in game because you didn't do the tutorial and there was something in it you didn't think about before. Like the new perception system.
Not a fan of tutorials .
This game is based on faction so most certainly no Island , otherwise why bother with factions ?
When i say not a fan , I dont mean lets not help people who have never played a MMO before .
Why not just a simple Pantheon icon (bottom left corner of screen ) click it to get all the little helpful hint and help you need .
Just spawn us into your world with nothing but a note :) , half the problem with MMORPG's tired of being lead around like the rest of the herd .
Even My four year old grandson knows W.A.S.D . or arrow keys .