EQ launched without a tutorial because back then those sort of things weren't at the forefront of thinking. It was like joining a table top d&d game with friends. Those friends tell you what to expect. Now we have new ideas and new features but they are added on a progressive scale. So you can have a basic tutorial, but when a new item such as an environmental resistance item shows up you would need a separate tutorial. Unless each class is gifted an environmental from the start and this is included in the tutorial to cover all bases than I feel like a progressive tooltip popup when new features are introduced would be the way to go. Or just go bare metal and have no tutorial and have the items describe how they work in more detail.
kreed99 said:EQ launched without a tutorial because back then those sort of things weren't at the forefront of thinking. It was like joining a table top d&d game with friends. Those friends tell you what to expect. Now we have new ideas and new features but they are added on a progressive scale. So you can have a basic tutorial, but when a new item such as an environmental resistance item shows up you would need a separate tutorial. Unless each class is gifted an environmental from the start and this is included in the tutorial to cover all bases than I feel like a progressive tooltip popup when new features are introduced would be the way to go. Or just go bare metal and have no tutorial and have the items describe how they work in more detail.
Actually it did have an offline tutorial.
Questaar said:zorkon
Since it’s just a matter of opinion I think most noobs would rather have a tutorial than read a help file. One is playing the game and one is reading a book. O by the way the food thing was supposed to be a funny exaggeration not a scientific fact.
Ill agree with that. Just stating from my stance. Then again, this entire game seems to be trying to move away from hand holding and spoon feeding so maybe Im not the only one.
Questaar said:zorkon
Since it’s just a matter of opinion I think most noobs would rather have a tutorial than read a help file. One is playing the game and one is reading a book. O by the way the food thing was supposed to be a funny exaggeration not a scientific fact.
Most noobs would rather have quick question mark npc quests and run a 15 min dungeon. If we designed the game for noobs, we would end up with yet another modern mmo for noobs. Maybe the noobs have enough games out there to choose from?
Tanix said:Questaar said:zorkon
Since it’s just a matter of opinion I think most noobs would rather have a tutorial than read a help file. One is playing the game and one is reading a book. O by the way the food thing was supposed to be a funny exaggeration not a scientific fact.
Most noobs would rather have quick question mark npc quests and run a 15 min dungeon. If we designed the game for noobs, we would end up with yet another modern mmo for noobs. Maybe the noobs have enough games out there to choose from?
But not all noobs will expect it or require it. The tutorial will be for people who would have liked EQ had they been alive or into MMORPGs while it was in its golden age but otherwise nevering having experienced that style of game play. Not having a tutorial is throwing a way a lot of possible new super fans. At most a pre character creation tutorial zone would take the same amount of developement time as a very small zone. The NPC scripting will be the most time consuming, everything else would just be reused assests even the physical zone itself.
Trasak said:But not all noobs will expect it or require it. The tutorial will be for people who would have liked EQ had they been alive or into MMORPGs while it was in its golden age but otherwise nevering having experienced that style of game play. Not having a tutorial is throwing a way a lot of possible new super fans. At most a pre character creation tutorial zone would take the same amount of developement time as a very small zone. The NPC scripting will be the most time consuming, everything else would just be reused assests even the physical zone itself.
This I agree has a lot of merit.
Racial starting zones have all but been abandoned in mainstream MMO's in exchange for some lame scripted lore that puts everybody coming in from the same ship (thinking the boring scripted intro/tutorial into Wildstar and present EQ) they think
1) they MUST have a tutorial
2) they can't make 6-8 tutorials, one for each race
So as a solution they break the game by trying to justify a BS tutorial with crappy makeshift lore. (Gloomingdeep mines)
Early EQ had the right idea, just a bad implementation.
Although I DON'T agree with "throwing a way a lot of possible new super fans." Ii belive more that if they are the type of people that will like Pantheon, they will tough it out enough to figure out they need to buy food or they need to talk to an NPC when a perception prompt pops up or to look at the message box wen they enter a cold climate and start dieing from frostbite. If not, there in the wrong place. And there WILL be those
Original EQ there was a booklet to read when the game was purchased that explained a lot. In absence of a book I wouldn't mind having a tutorial that would allow someone to get familiar with the keystrokes and interfaces and movement. Not as part of the game and not as part of character creation. It could be an offline tutorial. But I think it would be something good to have and I don't think an expensive waste of resources to provide since everything about it is already in the game in some way, shape, or fashion.
Read a few responses, not all, so maybe i'm suggesting what has already been said.
I think there should be a tutorial, but it should be skippable. I do not like tooltips in games except for when i excplicitely turn them on. Therefor i would suggest a newbie island like Everquest 2 had, BUT make it offline and the first part of the download from the game (i believe EQ1 had an offline tutorial?). That way when you are downloading the game with the patcher, you can start the tutorial if you choose to do so, while the download continues in the background. This will give both new players and players with a less than ideal connection to do something while they wait.
This will also prevent the somewhat standard popup you get whenever you load the game for the first time, with a tooltip box asking if you want them enabled, or in some games cannot kill it untill you've exitted the newbie area.
What should this tutorial learn you? Basic interaction with NPC's, doors and other interactive elements you might find in the game. It should tell you how to set up your hotbars, how to meditate, how to drink and eat if that is a thing. Maybe even how to craft stuff (tho not really in favor of that part). It should also tell you the basics of communication, how to trigger a quest. How to send a private tell, how to use the open channels and their characteristics. Like shout is red and reaches 100m, while out of character (ooc) and auction are zone wide.
Since immersion is consists largely on behaviour and communication, the use of different communication methods is probably the part that matters most in my opinion.
An example of a game that truly needed a tutorial: Wildstar. The game failed in many aspects, but one thing I noticed with this game, was the lack of skill majority of people had. Unless you had already joined an established guild, you were screwed. People jumped in the game, did the tutorial and still didn't know how to stun or CC the bosses properly.
Each Dungeon boss had 2 or 3 people that were required to use one of their CC's to stun the boss in a given timeframe. Sometimes it was okay to miss, but sometimes it was the death of your group. This caused a lot of people to fail or struggle to gear up in the beginning because their Raid questline (i forget the name) had requirements. You had to complete dungeons on certain difficulty levels and then defeat open world raid bosses. Eventually you had 1 person dedicated to doing all the CC's, but that meant they lacked in DPS... Then that makes you rely on the other DPS (who already isn't using ANY CC's to help your group) to properly DPS the boss for both you and themselves AND NOT DIE.
One thing they failed to do was make it "Optional". That's right, you were forced to spend 10-20 minutes completing a tutorial for EVERY character you made. Make it optional. Give the noobs the option, just like the veterans want the option not to do it. We're all going to be noobs to the game itself, but we're veterans to MMORPG's. I have a colorful background for types of MMO's I've played, some do not share this. Do we really want to risk not being able to meet new people because we're worried about some 10 minute hand holding? They got dropped in the game to fend for themselves regardless of a tutorial. We're all going to struggle with or without the tutorial if Pantheon is meant to be as difficult as they say.
Let's give these people a chance.
I miss the days of Buying this big box that you knew was full of stuff. It might have a map in it (cloth or paper), maybe a trinket (I remember getting things when I bought Ultima), and a big manual to reference while playing. I think a manual should be plenty, especially if it is accessible in game.
But times have changed, I understand just because I miss something doesn’t mean it has to be in the game. This game sounds like it is going to be different than any other game out right now. So, I can see having a tutorial so that people can give it a try. You open up more possibilities for gaining new long-term players. I know I have tried tutorials in games just to check out the community and how they interact.
Trasak said:Tanix said:Questaar said:zorkon
Since it’s just a matter of opinion I think most noobs would rather have a tutorial than read a help file. One is playing the game and one is reading a book. O by the way the food thing was supposed to be a funny exaggeration not a scientific fact.
Most noobs would rather have quick question mark npc quests and run a 15 min dungeon. If we designed the game for noobs, we would end up with yet another modern mmo for noobs. Maybe the noobs have enough games out there to choose from?
But not all noobs will expect it or require it. The tutorial will be for people who would have liked EQ had they been alive or into MMORPGs while it was in its golden age but otherwise nevering having experienced that style of game play. Not having a tutorial is throwing a way a lot of possible new super fans. At most a pre character creation tutorial zone would take the same amount of developement time as a very small zone. The NPC scripting will be the most time consuming, everything else would just be reused assests even the physical zone itself.
If a player can get discouraged by not having a tutorial, I think they will struggle far too much in the game anyway.
Manuals do wonders! In fact, they were an excellent means of informing players about game play for years before interactive tutorials were created for the games. Not only are they excellent forms of teaching, but they are much cheaper to create and implement, which is EXTREMELY important for a company that has limited resources.
Tanix said:If a player can get discouraged by not having a tutorial, I think they will struggle far too much in the game anyway.
I disagree. Sometimes just a little small encouragement and explanation that can get people over that initial introduction. Especially when you consider the fact that a gamer who is new to old school mmos may need their expectations shifted. When EQ was in its golden area there were maybe a total of maybe 2 million MMO players globally. Now I would estimate there are 20-30 million between all the MMOs or had in the past based on active number of users between WoW and ESO and that’s before you consider the Korean market.
Not all of those who have only experienced “modern mmos” are content with them and relish the idea of something more substantial. A good tutorial can help transition them into the right mindset and expectations. Even if 10% of Modern MMO players can make the transition to Pantheon game play that’s still 2-3 million players. If even half of them decide to subscribe to Pantheon that’s a lot of development funding for additional content.
Tanix said:Manuals do wonders! In fact, they were an excellent means of informing players about game play for years before interactive tutorials were created for the games. Not only are they excellent forms of teaching, but they are much cheaper to create and implement, which is EXTREMELY important for a company that has limited resources.
AND they can be searchable AS you need the info, Not days or possibly even weeks before you ever encounter any of the features. (I digress..This is assuming the search function works better than the one on this Web site)
They can be printed for easy access later. For some this could be the entire manual. For others key pages,
A list of commands
A list of emotes
A list of abilities and what the effect.
This,would be much more help than a tutorial, unless of course, like a tutorial, the user choose not to use it.
Zorkon said:AND they can be searchable AS you need the info, Not days or possibly even weeks before you ever encounter any of the features. (I digress..This is assuming the search function works better than the one on this Web site)
They can be printed for easy access later. For some this could be the entire manual. For others key pages,
A list of commands
A list of emotes
A list of abilities and what the effect.
This,would be much more help than a tutorial, unless of course, like a tutorial, the user choose not to use it.
There is certainly room for both a skippable pre character generation tutorial for new players and an in game reference manual accessable through a menu. The manual could even be an active one. Many of the CAD software suits have manuals that you can search but will also have basic examples and will highlight the desired function in the UI. Granted this is business productivity software and not a game but it is an idea of what can be done with a built in manual. For those who want to kill a tree maybe there could be a print function as well.
I say no to a tutorial. When a player is dropped into the world they should want to feel the need to explore and that includes their UI too. Tutorials feel to rail roadish and like somebody is holding your hand. Plus you would have to make one for every city, sounds like a lot of time and resources.
Just make a really nice help section so if anytime anybody has any questions they can look it up there.
((If we designed the game for noobs, we would end up with yet another modern mmo for noobs. Maybe the noobs have enough games out there to choose from?))
This may win the award for the most exaggerated.....well I can't really think of words to describe it that would also be polite so I won't even try. No one could *possibly* think that because a game has 15 minutes or half an hour or an hour optional tutorial helping new players get up to speed, that in and of itself turns it into WoW or EQ2 or SWTOR or .....
dorotea said:((If we designed the game for noobs, we would end up with yet another modern mmo for noobs. Maybe the noobs have enough games out there to choose from?))
This may win the award for the most exaggerated.....well I can't really think of words to describe it that would also be polite so I won't even try. No one could *possibly* think that because a game has 15 minutes or half an hour or an hour optional tutorial helping new players get up to speed, that in and of itself turns it into WoW or EQ2 or SWTOR or .....
I think either elitest or out of touch. Either way I don't see how having a tutorial somehow negatively impacts another's experience if its able to be skipped.
Ok, I made a mistake and got confused by 'tutorial'. I was thinking like should there be helpful tips for some reason, which yes i think they should have. I think there should be a tiny walkthough for each new starting character, but not a tutorial like Mines of Gloomingdeep in EQ.
a new player: by gosh i can't wait to play this game i've never played before!
tutorial npc: you have been thrusted into this world to sur-skip
try moving by-skip
there are different methods for selecting a tar-skip
this is your spellbar. you must bi-skip
a new player: they act like i never played a game before. i could just google all this or watch a youtube video.
tutorial npc: dying in panth-skip
the weather can be-skip
~a few moments later~
a new player: alright finally i get to play the game! what's this icon at on the map? w-what? why am i taking damage? WHY AM I MOVING SLOW?!
a gray screen
a new player goes to watch a youtube video
a new player: oh so i take cold damage if i don't have proper gear. they could have said that this was also a survival game. talk about false advertising.
Valorous1 said:Ok, I made a mistake and got confused by 'tutorial'. I was thinking like should there be helpful tips for some reason, which yes i think they should have. I think there should be a tiny walkthough for each new starting character, but not a tutorial like Mines of Gloomingdeep in EQ.
Look I'm pro tutorial and I don't want the Mines of Gloomingdeep or EQ2 noob island either. I think there is room for some middle ground here.
EppE said:Valorous1 said:Ok, I made a mistake and got confused by 'tutorial'. I was thinking like should there be helpful tips for some reason, which yes i think they should have. I think there should be a tiny walkthough for each new starting character, but not a tutorial like Mines of Gloomingdeep in EQ.
Look I'm pro tutorial and I don't want the Mines of Gloomingdeep or EQ2 noob island either. I think there is room for some middle ground here.
the way you gotta sell it is like this:
look devs, how much does it cost to make a tutorial similar to noob island? 60k-100k USD? will game mechanics be something that is so complicated it will turn players away? approx. less than 1%. what is your loss value if you didn't have a tutorial? let's be generous and say we'll have 1 million players at launch. rounding up would be 10,000 players with 60 USD per copy of game = 600,000k. the tutorial would definitely have paid for itself, but your looking at: is it worth the capital?
let's say the avg gamer after 3 months of play will decide whether they want to continue or not. without testing you drop 20% player base drops out because the game is broken. that's a potential 3mil USD potential income per month.
if you invested 60k-100k USD you could hire 2-4 people to test, which will be direct contact with player rentention. this would maybe help you retain an additional 10%. that's 1.5 mil USD you'll be making a month.
in summary, taking the money and spending it towards testing would be more profitable than using it to make a tutorial.