Kalok said:Well, given that their opinion is the one that counts, if they say that they're not official streams, they're not official streams. Yes, I read your post. I ws pointing out the silliness of you saying what you said given that you quotes Kilsin's post that they are not official streams. There is a rather large difference between an official VR stream, and a stream through the Streamer Program. Allowing something to happen is *NOT* the same thing as saying, "Hey.... This is official." VR has had plenty of smaller streamers that have done an official stream. Vress, Saicred, and KoopaTrooper come to mind. In addition, they have had official streans that were done by non-gamer streamers, such as Jim Lee.
You're the only one "arguing over semantics". They have stated that they are not official streams, they are not announcing them, and are leaving it up to the streamers themselves. That seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Don't mistake my comments as mere silliness or whining. The fact is, many have stated that they had no idea this stream was happening, and that's a missed opportunity. The official/unofficial part of the debate really wasn't even the focal point of my post, it was that people very active in this community weren't aware it was taking place (to be clear, I'm not one of them - I knew and watched. But I'm not arguing the point because I was negatively affected, I think its a mistake). And surely people not knowing about the stream runs contrary to the point, correct? Or am I missing the point of the streamer program? If not to market the game, then what?
My comments aren't to divide the community or criticize VR just for the sake of it - my comments are to help the development of this game on these development forums (as was pointed out). I don't feel like this style of laissez-faire marketing is the way to go. If you do, that's fine - we can just disagree.
Nikademis said:Kalok said:Well, given that their opinion is the one that counts, if they say that they're not official streams, they're not official streams. Yes, I read your post. I ws pointing out the silliness of you saying what you said given that you quotes Kilsin's post that they are not official streams. There is a rather large difference between an official VR stream, and a stream through the Streamer Program. Allowing something to happen is *NOT* the same thing as saying, "Hey.... This is official." VR has had plenty of smaller streamers that have done an official stream. Vress, Saicred, and KoopaTrooper come to mind. In addition, they have had official streans that were done by non-gamer streamers, such as Jim Lee.
You're the only one "arguing over semantics". They have stated that they are not official streams, they are not announcing them, and are leaving it up to the streamers themselves. That seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Don't mistake my comments as mere silliness or whining. The fact is, many have stated that they had no idea this stream was happening, and that's a missed opportunity. The official/unofficial part of the debate really wasn't even the focal point of my post, it was that people very active in this community weren't aware it was taking place (to be clear, I'm not one of them - I knew and watched. But I'm not arguing the point because I was negatively affected, I think its a mistake). And surely people not knowing about the stream runs contrary to the point, correct? Or am I missing the point of the streamer program? If not to market the game, then what?
My comments aren't to divide the community or criticize VR just for the sake of it - my comments are to help the development of this game on these development forums (as was pointed out). I don't feel like this style of laissez-faire marketing is the way to go. If you do, that's fine - we can just disagree.
People not knowing about it is a failure of the *STREMERS* to advertise it, *NOT* Visionary Realms. Kilsin, in the post that you quoted *ALSO* stated that it was the streamer's responsibility to advertise. The streamer program is for the streamers and for the community at large, not for Visionary Realms. Do you think that every game that Cohh streams is an official stream by that game developer? No. It's not. they are Cohh streaming what he likes to play. That's what the streamer program is. At this point in time, it is basically an exception to the NDA to allow these "professional streamers" to stream the game while the game is still under NDA.
The streamer program *ISN'T* a marketing program, and I think that's where you're getting confused. It is more of an endorsement by these particular streamers than a marketing strategy by Visionary Realms.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:
So after the stream tonight (Nov 29, 2018) I went over it again to make some notes on the questions asked and such. So here is the Summary with links to the video footage for each question or explanation the Dev’s gave.
36:20 - 37:38 - Joppa explains ‘Non-linear’ dungeon/zone style that Pantheon has that means there is no start and end to the dungeon. You more ‘inhabit’ an area of the dungeon and can move where you want. Also there can be multiple level ranges within the dungeon.
46:40 - 49:52 - Jessica asks about zone design, noticing that as they moved ‘up’ in the dungeon things got more difficult, and wondered if this was a standard thing, or if it just happens to be how it works out in this particular zone. Joppa explains that there can be some content overlap. Multiple level ranges can co-exist in close proximity.
1:00:25 - 1:02:03 - Nibori asks about Alternate Advancement points. Joppa explains progression will be mostly gear based. And acquiring Epic Abilities & Skills, Epic Items, etc… Long involved quests. Finding Masters out in the world and convince them to teach you.
1:08:53 - 1:11:27 - Jessica asks about Classes being able to customize themselves. Also mentioning Class identity within Roles. Joppa refers to a ‘soft specialization’ where you choose which abilities you have ready for a fight. You will also be able to go out into the world to find ‘special’ abilities and that will begin to differentiate players because players will have abilities that the base class will not have.
1:11:33 - 1:12:45 - Joppa talks about class skill ceiling, where players who become much better at their class mechanics and synergies, players will be able to stand out from other players.
First Goofy thanks for breaking these out for us.
Sadly though I keep feeling less and less interested in Pantheon as time goes on. The team keeps seeming to bring in all the worst aspects of EQ without learning from the mistakes or innovating hardly at all. The above links are what I feel some of the biggest EQ Sins that are being brought forward.
Basically 1&2 amount the game is going to be sitting at camps waiting for respawns, getting squashed by trains caused by high level players, and stepping around the corner to get obliterated by something way out of your league. I was really hoping for more when we heard about dispositions and the perception system. They had me excited for some real dynamic content, but what I'm seeing is just really . . . 1999.
Links 3,4 &5 basically say “Yes we are going to do the loot merry go round” and the game population will be split between the people rushing to 50, the people at 50 but not in guilds that can get epic abilities, and those in guilds who can. Without opportunity cost there is no consequence to your choice it is just a barrier between haves and have nots. If you can only learn a certain number of your possible epic abilities then the system might be salvageable.
End game progression based on getting the best gear which is still trade-able means that only the top end items will have any value after an adequate amount of time. Its the same crap that made me leave WoW as I became disinterested in just running the next set of content to get significantly more powerful than the last set of content.
Different tools for different jobs but all the same basic strength is a much better design concept for end game itemization. If you really want progression through items then do it by turning your specialized gear into a swiss army knife rather than just a single blade, don't just keep pumping the magnitude of the item power.
Sadly if crafting ends up being “grind through this massive pile of materials to get a few skill raises to then grind another recipe for a few skill points” and “oh btw other than one or two items nothing is used at end game” then I will likely wash my hands of Pantheon and write my donation off as a lesson learned.
Maybe someone will make the true successor to SWG pre new game engine. Thats a game I would live in.
I watched the stream and I must say a lack of preparation really seemed to doom the group as someone mentioned. I spent the whole time in a bit of a perpetual state of frustration lol.
I think it would add so much value (especially when everyone is new to the game) to have one person who knows a little about the tactics actually lead the group through some kills after a death or 2. This would at the very least introduce this new audience you're shooting for with some information about how the fights are going to be approached with more utility skills and less button mashing. I just feel a stream of newbies failing badly with no direction to improve is not great advertising.
Don't get me wrong though, I love the game coming off hard like it is in a stream like this but hard with an eventual resolution would be a good thing for people to see. I think showing off deeper tactical options in this game is going to enthuse new players.
Edit: btw thanks goofy for the hard work
I just want to say that was one hell of a stream. It is looking beautiful - nice work VR!
(& THANK YOU to streamers and devs)
Nice summary Goofy, good job man! :)
@everyone
As I was quoted saying, these streams are not new content or dev progress, they are just giving other people the opportunity to show off our game (the same things you have already seen many times before) to their audience who most likely haven't heard about Pantheon yet, it is a way for us to grow the community with like mind gamers. It isn't an official dev stream, the devs just act as guides so the streamers who are completely new to our world of Terminus, don't end up lost and confused and instead have a personal guide to make their streams fun and show the game off to new people.
By all means, you guys are welcome to jump in and re-watch the same content/areas with different streamers but it is not something we will be advertising or calling official, since it is not new releases or dev progress for the company and again, you guys have all seen it before, some of you multiple times.
We will always promote our official streams that show off new content, dev progress and special releases/features/systems/mechanics to you guys as we have always done, so stay tuned for one of those streams in the not too distant future. :)
Syrif said:Porygon said:As stated in the new community guidelines, this is a development board. Not a fan site. VR obviously believes that there is no significant developments in these upcoming streams and doesnt feel the need to advertise them.
Also. People that are already on the forums. Arent the players VR is trying to reach with these streams, they already have us, we've already seen multiple streams of the same thing.
If you are truly interested in everything pantheon. you should also be checking the reddit regularly, as usually the streams are announced there well before any comment is made here, this especially is the case for "non development" streams.
Not really.
Posting a sticky that points your community in the right direction for something that they are looking for doesn’t have to be ‘advertising’ I guess.
I'm honestly not even sure what you're saying "not really" to. But as Kilsin seemingly echoed my points. I guess theres nothing left to say.
Trasak said:
GoofyWarriorGuy said:So after the stream tonight (Nov 29, 2018) I went over it again to make some notes on the questions asked and such. So here is the Summary with links to the video footage for each question or explanation the Dev’s gave.
36:20 - 37:38 - Joppa explains ‘Non-linear’ dungeon/zone style that Pantheon has that means there is no start and end to the dungeon. You more ‘inhabit’ an area of the dungeon and can move where you want. Also there can be multiple level ranges within the dungeon.
46:40 - 49:52 - Jessica asks about zone design, noticing that as they moved ‘up’ in the dungeon things got more difficult, and wondered if this was a standard thing, or if it just happens to be how it works out in this particular zone. Joppa explains that there can be some content overlap. Multiple level ranges can co-exist in close proximity.
1:00:25 - 1:02:03 - Nibori asks about Alternate Advancement points. Joppa explains progression will be mostly gear based. And acquiring Epic Abilities & Skills, Epic Items, etc… Long involved quests. Finding Masters out in the world and convince them to teach you.
1:08:53 - 1:11:27 - Jessica asks about Classes being able to customize themselves. Also mentioning Class identity within Roles. Joppa refers to a ‘soft specialization’ where you choose which abilities you have ready for a fight. You will also be able to go out into the world to find ‘special’ abilities and that will begin to differentiate players because players will have abilities that the base class will not have.
1:11:33 - 1:12:45 - Joppa talks about class skill ceiling, where players who become much better at their class mechanics and synergies, players will be able to stand out from other players.
First Goofy thanks for breaking these out for us.
Sadly though I keep feeling less and less interested in Pantheon as time goes on. The team keeps seeming to bring in all the worst aspects of EQ without learning from the mistakes or innovating hardly at all. The above links are what I feel some of the biggest EQ Sins that are being brought forward.
Basically 1&2 amount the game is going to be sitting at camps waiting for respawns, getting squashed by trains caused by high level players, and stepping around the corner to get obliterated by something way out of your league. I was really hoping for more when we heard about dispositions and the perception system. They had me excited for some real dynamic content, but what I'm seeing is just really . . . 1999.
Links 3,4 &5 basically say “Yes we are going to do the loot merry go round” and the game population will be split between the people rushing to 50, the people at 50 but not in guilds that can get epic abilities, and those in guilds who can. Without opportunity cost there is no consequence to your choice it is just a barrier between haves and have nots. If you can only learn a certain number of your possible epic abilities then the system might be salvageable.
End game progression based on getting the best gear which is still trade-able means that only the top end items will have any value after an adequate amount of time. Its the same crap that made me leave WoW as I became disinterested in just running the next set of content to get significantly more powerful than the last set of content.
Different tools for different jobs but all the same basic strength is a much better design concept for end game itemization. If you really want progression through items then do it by turning your specialized gear into a swiss army knife rather than just a single blade, don't just keep pumping the magnitude of the item power.
Sadly if crafting ends up being “grind through this massive pile of materials to get a few skill raises to then grind another recipe for a few skill points” and “oh btw other than one or two items nothing is used at end game” then I will likely wash my hands of Pantheon and write my donation off as a lesson learned.
Maybe someone will make the true successor to SWG pre new game engine. Thats a game I would live in.
You cant have linear dungeons in open world. If your dungeon is start to finish a b c d e f g... you end up with a group sitting st the dungeon waiting for "a" to respawn before they can begin. Which is significantly worse than actually being at a camp waiting for respawns (which does not happen, most camps are made based upon how many mobs the group can kill before respawns. If you want to instance dungeons, you can make a much better world in regards to dungeon crawling... but we all know that isnt favored among this community.
Everquest didnt initiate AAs until Velious. Just because the initial launch doesnt have a way to further your character outside of gear (and epic spells/abilities) doesnt mean that is all that it will have forever. Sometimes it takes time to make a great game. Classic wow is amazing, but TBC is the single best game ever made (opinion). Classic didnt get it right, TBC fixed nearly everything.
You're obviously an intelligent person. And I know I'm not going to "convince" you of anything. But I seriously doubt pantheon will make the same mistakes other games have. Theres still alot of time for development and changes and they havent even started the most important stages of testing yet. Keep your head up!
Kilsin said:Nice summary Goofy, good job man! :)
@everyone
As I was quoted saying, these streams are not new content or dev progress, they are just giving other people the opportunity to show off our game (the same things you have already seen many times before) to their audience who most likely haven't heard about Pantheon yet, it is a way for us to grow the community with like mind gamers. It isn't an official dev stream, the devs just act as guides so the streamers who are completely new to our world of Terminus, don't end up lost and confused and instead have a personal guide to make their streams fun and show the game off to new people.
By all means, you guys are welcome to jump in and re-watch the same content/areas with different streamers but it is not something we will be advertising or calling official, since it is not new releases or dev progress for the company and again, you guys have all seen it before, some of you multiple times.
We will always promote our official streams that show off new content, dev progress and special releases/features/systems/mechanics to you guys as we have always done, so stay tuned for one of those streams in the not too distant future. :)
Totally down with that part of it, I just thought it might be beneficial to give the steamers a bit of combat direction as they fail in the difficulty of the game, this might show off the strategic aspect of Pantheon to the new audience.
@Porygon
I originally wrote up a larger breakdown with specific examples of the negatives of the design and design options that could fix many of the problems. I decided to delete it because it was basically 2 pages of me spouting my own opinion which boiled down to the fact I am disappointed in the design direction Pantheon appears to be going, and no one really wants to read that.
What things boil down to for me is that the world is going to be far too small and condensed. The need for camps or waiting for the front mobs to respawn is a sign that there is not enough content. If you are not going to instance the game world then it needs to be BIG to not be fighting over spawns in order to simply level (I can understand the need to compete for valueable rare spawns).
I could write tons more, and in fact did and deleted it once again, but it wont really help solve the issue. The power growth and character maturation rate by level appears to be following the EQ model as well which is the dreaded exponential growth curve. If this remains the case at launch then Pantheon will quickly become top heavy then wither and die or at least go mostly dormant between large content expansions where the power massively spikes, as all other exponential growth games do (the content consumption rate is faster than the content creation rate). Not being in pre-alpha I don't have concrete knowledge of this but seeing system patterns from small bits of detail is my super power/4 year degree and this is my analysis from incomplete data.
Its not that I disagree with you that there are a lot of good testing stages remaining to improve things, its the fact that I am beginning to feel they are on fundamentally the wrong path. The proof is in this following thought question “What would happen to the game if all named NPCs suddenly stopped spawning and never came back?”. Would love to hear your breakdown of that thought exercise as we appeared to have played a lot of the same games in the same time periods.
Why can we not switch spells while in combat? We could on EQ. Sometimes you could sit and switch a spell in EQ but you may also get agro for sitting while group is in combat.
i remember as a cleric i'd log out with raids heals and buffs only. if i got agro, with sow pots or boots i could run for a min, sit and mem Gate and run a little more and cast it.
don't take that out of the game.
Flapp said:Why can we not switch spells while in combat? We could on EQ. Sometimes you could sit and switch a spell in EQ but you may also get agro for sitting while group is in combat.
i remember as a cleric i'd log out with raids heals and buffs only. if i got agro, with sow pots or boots i could run for a min, sit and mem Gate and run a little more and cast it.
don't take that out of the game.
I would agree with this. Some of the most intense moments in EQ1 were trying to buy enough time to sit and memorize a needed spell like Gate while in the middle of combat. Make it have a long in combat memorization penalty, but it adds strategy to fighting as well as a little bit of potential forgiveness if you just forgot to put something important on your bar prior to the pull.
Kilsin said:Nice summary Goofy, good job man! :)
@everyone
As I was quoted saying, these streams are not new content or dev progress, they are just giving other people the opportunity to show off our game (the same things you have already seen many times before) to their audience who most likely haven't heard about Pantheon yet, it is a way for us to grow the community with like mind gamers. It isn't an official dev stream, the devs just act as guides so the streamers who are completely new to our world of Terminus, don't end up lost and confused and instead have a personal guide to make their streams fun and show the game off to new people.
By all means, you guys are welcome to jump in and re-watch the same content/areas with different streamers but it is not something we will be advertising or calling official, since it is not new releases or dev progress for the company and again, you guys have all seen it before, some of you multiple times.
We will always promote our official streams that show off new content, dev progress and special releases/features/systems/mechanics to you guys as we have always done, so stay tuned for one of those streams in the not too distant future. :)
Yay! I'm hoping for a proper unveiling of the Druid, Summoner, and a showcase of the new zone.
Oh and one more small detail.
First item that displays necro as a viable class.
You heard it here first.
So Sarcoth edited his stream to cut off the 17 minute pre-stream countdown, which threw off all my timestamps and links, so I had to go edit the post to correct all the timestamps and links to those timestamps. Should be all correct now, but if you see any errors just let me know.
vjek said: It's a shame Joppas explanation regarding the details of combat-related Perception was cut off. That was some new/good info there. Ah well, maybe next time.
I added in that question and answer from Nibori's PoV. Here is the Link so you don't need to go back to the original post:
Nibori Stream 23:17 - 25:11 - Since Sarcoth’s stream cut out, here is Joppa’s answer to the Perception ‘in combat’ advantage question from Nibori’s Stream, so you get to hear the whole answer.
