Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Is exploiting ok when it's just shortening a grind?

This topic has been closed.
    • 518 posts
    September 14, 2018 10:18 AM PDT

    Porygon said:....

    In everquest in sol a, there was a bar room.  The bar was too high for a gnome to jump over,  and too low for anything but a dwarf and halfling.   You could gather up 20 to 30 mobs,  get low health aggro and just jump back and forth over the bar.   The mobs would run all the way around to room to try she'd get to you while your group slowly killed them. 

    The first is absolutely an exploit that needed to be corrected and those that abused it punished.   The second is clever use of game mechanics.   If that's how the game is designed,  why is it exploiting. ...

     

    I think this is a really good response and captures the ambiguity inherent in this topic.

    I agree there are some things that are blatantly exploitive and should be punished harshly (like plat duplicating from a bug).

    On the opposite end, there are really interesting things that make the game a magical place, where players "invent" ways to go through the world.  Things like quad kiting, FD pulling, root-rotting, etc.  These are all "valid" ways to use the game mechanics but I don't think the developers ever imagined a time when they were inventing FD back around 1995 that they thought "OK so if there's a crowd of mobs a player can aggro one then run away with a small train and FD to split them"   The Dev's made FD as an escape mechanism but players adapted the mechanic into a whole new way to play the game.  Same with root and DoTs.  I don't think the Devs ever (again back in the early 90's) thought OK, so you can put a damage-over-time spell on a mob, then root it in place and just keep refreshing the spells while you sit and med until the mob  dies.  I don't think they saw that coming.  The players adapted the game mechanic into a whole new way to play the game.

    Now, somewhere in between, there are those things that are less clear-cut.   Things that aren't blatant exploits (aren't using accidental bugs) but are bypassing or giving an advantage that a Dev didn't foresee.  Such as the Crushbone belt quest.  A totally valid quest and fun to do.  Did the Dev's ever think that players would realize you could blast up to level 10 or 11 in a couple hours by just repeating this quest 4 or 5 times?  Of course not.  They didn't mean for this quest to give you a shortcut to bypass levels 5-9.  It just happened.  

    It is a very vague and imperfect topic.

     

     

     

    • 279 posts
    September 14, 2018 10:42 AM PDT

    Nephele said:Thus my question:  If you're faced with a grind in game, and there's a small exploit (like repeatedly accepting and then abandoning a quest) that will let you finish it more quickly, is that ok, since the game allows you to do it?  Or is it not ok?  And if it's not ok, what should the response be?

    Absolutely not okay. An exploit is an exploit. Those engaging in it should be punished depending on the severity of the exploit - anything from removal of currency/items/progression to a temporary ban to a permanent ban.

    • 734 posts
    September 14, 2018 10:50 AM PDT

    fazool said:

    Porygon said:....

    In everquest in sol a, there was a bar room.  The bar was too high for a gnome to jump over,  and too low for anything but a dwarf and halfling.   You could gather up 20 to 30 mobs,  get low health aggro and just jump back and forth over the bar.   The mobs would run all the way around to room to try she'd get to you while your group slowly killed them. 

    The first is absolutely an exploit that needed to be corrected and those that abused it punished.   The second is clever use of game mechanics.   If that's how the game is designed,  why is it exploiting. ...

     

    I think this is a really good response and captures the ambiguity inherent in this topic.

    I agree there are some things that are blatantly exploitive and should be punished harshly (like plat duplicating from a bug).

    On the opposite end, there are really interesting things that make the game a magical place, where players "invent" ways to go through the world.  Things like quad kiting, FD pulling, root-rotting, etc.  These are all "valid" ways to use the game mechanics but I don't think the developers ever imagined a time when they were inventing FD back around 1995 that they thought "OK so if there's a crowd of mobs a player can aggro one then run away with a small train and FD to split them"   The Dev's made FD as an escape mechanism but players adapted the mechanic into a whole new way to play the game.  Same with root and DoTs.  I don't think the Devs ever (again back in the early 90's) thought OK, so you can put a damage-over-time spell on a mob, then root it in place and just keep refreshing the spells while you sit and med until the mob  dies.  I don't think they saw that coming.  The players adapted the game mechanic into a whole new way to play the game.

    Now, somewhere in between, there are those things that are less clear-cut.   Things that aren't blatant exploits (aren't using accidental bugs) but are bypassing or giving an advantage that a Dev didn't foresee.  Such as the Crushbone belt quest.  A totally valid quest and fun to do.  Did the Dev's ever think that players would realize you could blast up to level 10 or 11 in a couple hours by just repeating this quest 4 or 5 times?  Of course not.  They didn't mean for this quest to give you a shortcut to bypass levels 5-9.  It just happened.  

    It is a very vague and imperfect topic.

     

     

     

    I understand but I don't think doing a repeatable quest to skip levels as an exploit, just doing good work in killing mobs, getting the right drops or buying them and turning them in, an exploit to me would be finding a quest like this and do something to where you successfully turn in the quest and somehow getting the items back into your inventory so you can do it again and again while getting good exp til the exp isn't good anymore and move on.  

    • 395 posts
    September 14, 2018 11:36 AM PDT

    Spluffen said:

    I don't think they should be punished. Punishing people for 'exploits' is just a (very) weak excuse for developers to use. If a so called exploit exists (I'd call it a bug and/or design flaw) then FIX it. Don't blame players when you (the developer) do a sloppy job.

    This. If the players find the flaw in sloppy code, fix the code. No need to punish the players for doing better QA testing than the development staff.

    • 445 posts
    September 14, 2018 12:00 PM PDT

    Exploiting is never OK.  That being said, there is generally a way to do something so that you WON'T get called out for exploiting.  The first time you do whatever it is I call the "What just happened" moment.  You can't help it.  These things sometimes happen.  But you don't submit a /bug report when it happens the first time.  The second moment is called "verification".  TRY to reproduce the event ONE TIME ONLY and not to any excess.  If it is repeatable, you immediately submit the /bug report explaining what happened, where it happend, etc.  Give all the info you can.  Be warned though, how you verify.  If you find a duping bug your verification process should be an attempt to reproduce with as little as possible.  If you "verify" and do so by duping 10000 x 10^63 just one time - that would be exploiting.  Let's not be silly with this.  I have actually found exploitable events with this team in EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard and using these methods I have never ever gotten in any trouble.  That being said, and as I have mentioned before, I have performed analytics on MMOs before.  Don't think for a moment that you can't be caught.  Every single event in-game is recorded and can be reviewed at any time.

    A second TOS (Terms of Service) violation related to this is repeating or instructing others on how to perform the exploit.  Allowable IFF (If and ONLY if) you are sending a private message to a representative of the company such as a Guide, GM, Dev, etc.  Doing this with ANYONE else in most cases that I have seen was grounds for an immediate Ban.  Not a suspension.  A suspension is a suspension of service.  The length of a suspension is entirely up to the company.  A BAN is just that.  No going back.  If you are telling others how to exploit in the hopes that the company won't do anything if "everyone else" is doing it, you are sadly mistaken.  IMHO, doing this should be punishable with an immediate banning.  Someone doing this is not only trying to get themselves in trouble, but every other paying customer as well.

    If you see something that you may consider an exploit but just aren't sure, I would suggest you get a message to the team in a non-public way, or try posting in the forums WITHOUT giving specific details in a public way.

    Oh, and one more thing about discussing these types of things in-game.  Just because you are sending a private message to another player does not mean that the team can't read it.  Anything you say/text/message etc. to another person through the client is recordable and can and will be used if neccessary.

    • 884 posts
    September 14, 2018 1:29 PM PDT

    Feyshtey said:

    @Porygon

    In your first example (herb garden) I'm not sure what the specifics were. Were you not able to grow the frost lotus in the herb garden if you were rank 3 and were able at rank 2? I would not consider staying at rank 2 and forgoing all the benefits of rank 3 to be an exploit. That would be a choice with definable benefits/costs. 

    it was a bug that only worked with level 2 garrisons.  You can grow any plant you want, 12 of them or so each day.   But if you had a level 2 garrison and a level 3 herb garden your frost lotus would just continually respawn. Therefore giving you unlimited herb for as long as you wanted to sit there.

    In your second example (jumping back and forth over the table to pull more mobs than the group could have otherwise hoped to survive against) is by any objective definition a pathing exploit. You are using limitations of the pathing code to do things you know with certainty were never intended for you to be able to do for a significant increase in reward while also significantly decreasing risk. 

    On the third, how did a pet survive that raid mob? I've never heard of using pets in this way. Being a necro I know that at least in the first 6 years of the game any raid boss would destroy a mage or necro pet in seconds, and then seak out the mage or necro. (Necro having the chance to feign, obviously.) If the pet were being healed the healer would be generating more threat than the pet, and would at the least be the immediate target of the boss the moment the pet were to die or be dismissed. If there was a way to avoid these intended mechanics, I'd say it's an exploit. 

    that made changes to code to prevent players from mass petting raid mobs.  Prior to the changes you could just chain summon mage pets and you would effectively be able to tank raid mobs that way.  The code made it so raid mobs would ignore pets and attack the owners.  Since the mob was above "summoning" percent the player could just stand out of range while the pet built aggro.

    No knowledge of the fourth. 

    There are things that are subjective when considering an exploit. The Circlet of Shadows (instant cast invis) is one, where it enabled a necro or SK to fiegn death, be removed from the hate list, and then stand up while instantly going invis and avoiding re-agro. When this was used with the fact that while feigned they circumvented the normal faction checks making them KOS on merchants or bankers, and could interact with those NPCs as if they were friendly, ... This is definately getting buggy, and some would say an exploit. But the devs openly acknowleged the emergent behavior, and instead of declaring it an exploit admitted that, hey, you got us. The CoS was nerfed, but the original remained in game but no longer dropped.

    When the devs are willing to say that they were out thought and there's an understanding that action wont be taken against players, you're entering into a different category. The defacto answer is that it's not an exploit because the devs have blessed the behavior. 

    This is not true at all for the pathing exploit noted above. A fix might not be easy, or even possible, given the limitations of the engine. But the cost/benefit for the players who use it is completely out of whack for game balance. Health of the game being paramount, it is understood by all that pathing exploits like that are absolutely no no's, and if caught using it you should expect punishment. 

     

    I just wanted to display various situations to show that determining what an exploit is, isnt as easy as you would think.  There's alot ot things that happen that are unintended that I dont really see as exploits.

    • 318 posts
    September 14, 2018 1:36 PM PDT

    Bugs are not exclusively caused by sloppy coding. Neither coders or QA testers should be expected to create a bug-free experience in something as complex as an MMO (even moreso on a limited budget).
    Side Note: I would love a tiered title "(Master, Expert, Novice) Bug Hunter" liberally handed out to those who make bug reports that lead to a fix of the game.

    VR should not be expected to provide an ethical justification, they should only be expected to attempt to be consistent with their application of whatever rules they have. They need only think of the end result - what creates the best game experience for those who follow the rules and those who unintentionally break the rules? You can try to improve the population of players by removing those who break the rules (bans and suspensions), try to discourage rule breaking by stating rules or punishing rule breakers to set an example, or rectify the harm done by reverting gameplay or removing items/coin.


    This post was edited by Ainadak at September 14, 2018 1:37 PM PDT
    • 161 posts
    September 14, 2018 1:43 PM PDT

    Its a game. Solving problems is the point of a game, yea? If you find the best way to solve said problem (even if it was unintended) then how is that an exploit? In fact, the word I'd use for finding efficient but unintended solutions is: Meta. If you make a game, then stand for it.

    • 678 posts
    September 14, 2018 1:49 PM PDT

    Porygon said: ... If that's how the game is designed,  why is it exploiting. ...

    This is the whole argument boiled down. ^^^

    A certain segment of players in the target demographic will see this as " Ban all the exploiters, permanently, no warnings, zero tolerance! "

    A certain segment of players in the target demographic will see this as " ♪♫♪ Exploit often, exploit early, bans are always temporary ♪♫♪ " (see, it rhymes!)

    On DBG run EQ1 servers, given the zero level of in-game customer service, the latter rules the day.  If it can be done, it will be done, as often as possible, until the developers remove it from the game.
    Personally?  I don't see how it could be any different for Pantheon.  It's not like the target demographic is going to be made up entirely of sheeple. :)

    • 161 posts
    September 14, 2018 2:01 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    (see, it rhymes!)

    wat? lol it doesn't

    • 1247 posts
    September 14, 2018 3:13 PM PDT

    Exploiting is a strike or a short ban. Advertisting the bug/exploit is a permanent ban. The 2nd policy being what many major companies do today, including Blizzard and Arena.net. Sharing the exploit with others is worse than exploiting it yourself as you are effectively spreading the disease. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at September 14, 2018 3:17 PM PDT
    • 518 posts
    September 14, 2018 3:24 PM PDT

    Keno Monster said:

    Exploiting is a strike or a short ban. Advertisting the bug/exploit is a permanent ban. The 2nd policy being what many major companies do today, including Blizzard and Arena.net. Sharing the exploit with others is worse than exploiting it yourself as you are effectively spreading the disease. 

     

    Yeah and when you live in a totalitarian state, the death penalty is given with no pause nor recourse......I reported a plat duping bug to DBG.  There was chatter about it but they hadn't been able to reproduce it to find it.  I accidentally had it happen to me when I crashed while banking.  I reported it then posted to them about it.  I have a lifetime forum ban for exploiting a bug.

     

    Another time there was a massive hammer-fall against cheaters and they went back and rolled back every person that traded with every person that traded with every person who was caught cheating.  I didn't even do a trade and I lost two levels I think.  

     

    So, I'm against the power drunk over reaction punishments (until you have facts)

    • 1247 posts
    September 14, 2018 3:28 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    The issue with rolling back characters needs to directly be related to the type and severity of the exploit.  When garrison's first came out in wow you could have an herb garden.   The herbs would grow once a day and you could collect them.   If you left your garrison at level 2 instead of level 3 and you choose to grow frost lotus (i think)... the frost lotus would respawn allowing you to have an endless supply.  

    In everquest in sol a, there was a bar room.  The bar was too high for a gnome to jump over,  and too low for anything but a dwarf and halfling.   You could gather up 20 to 30 mobs,  get low health aggro and just jump back and forth over the bar.   The mobs would run all the way around to room to try she'd get to you while your group slowly killed them. 

    The first is absolutely an exploit that needed to be corrected and those that abused it punished.   The second is clever use of game mechanics.   If that's how the game is designed,  why is it exploiting. 

     

    No, just no. This rationalization of cheating is absurd. This is no different than finding a safe spot where mobs cant path to and sitting there nuking with impunity. Exploiting pathing is not intelligently taking advantage of a game mechanic, it is cheating. Your example is no different than the mob upstairs in unrest that couldn't path down the stairs, or the pathing exploit in the basement, or the pickclaw goblin safe ledge in highpass keep, or the ice giant exploit outside permafrost before mobs would teleport. 

    There's nothing tricky about it. You are describing a black and white case of cheating. You consider exploiting a bug to become unhittable by a mob "how the game is designed". I straight up do not believe that you honestly think the devs designed the pathing issues around the bar on Sol A on purpose and intended for players to become invincible there.

    You can't be serious, or I must misunderstand.


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at September 14, 2018 3:33 PM PDT
    • 1247 posts
    September 14, 2018 3:44 PM PDT

    fazool said:

    Keno Monster said:

    Exploiting is a strike or a short ban. Advertisting the bug/exploit is a permanent ban. The 2nd policy being what many major companies do today, including Blizzard and Arena.net. Sharing the exploit with others is worse than exploiting it yourself as you are effectively spreading the disease. 

     

    Yeah and when you live in a totalitarian state, the death penalty is given with no pause nor recourse......I reported a plat duping bug to DBG.  There was chatter about it but they hadn't been able to reproduce it to find it.  I accidentally had it happen to me when I crashed while banking.  I reported it then posted to them about it.  I have a lifetime forum ban for exploiting a bug.

     

    Another time there was a massive hammer-fall against cheaters and they went back and rolled back every person that traded with every person that traded with every person who was caught cheating.  I didn't even do a trade and I lost two levels I think.  

     

    So, I'm against the power drunk over reaction punishments (until you have facts)

    Nothing you said has anything to do with my post. You're detailing the experience you had with some stupid people who handled their end of the bug issue poorly. Them banning you wrongfully has nothing to do with my post. You're making non sequitor comparisons. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at September 14, 2018 3:45 PM PDT
    • 709 posts
    September 14, 2018 5:04 PM PDT

    As opposed to punishing those that use exploits, why not reward those that report them so the devs can fix them.

    I'm not saying report the players, (I agree it's the devs mistake) report the exploit itself... if the devs find it to truly be an exploit the first person reporting it is rewarded with a free month of subscription.

    • 884 posts
    September 14, 2018 5:28 PM PDT

    Keno Monster said:

    Porygon said:

    The issue with rolling back characters needs to directly be related to the type and severity of the exploit.  When garrison's first came out in wow you could have an herb garden.   The herbs would grow once a day and you could collect them.   If you left your garrison at level 2 instead of level 3 and you choose to grow frost lotus (i think)... the frost lotus would respawn allowing you to have an endless supply.  

    In everquest in sol a, there was a bar room.  The bar was too high for a gnome to jump over,  and too low for anything but a dwarf and halfling.   You could gather up 20 to 30 mobs,  get low health aggro and just jump back and forth over the bar.   The mobs would run all the way around to room to try she'd get to you while your group slowly killed them. 

    The first is absolutely an exploit that needed to be corrected and those that abused it punished.   The second is clever use of game mechanics.   If that's how the game is designed,  why is it exploiting. 

     

    No, just no. This rationalization of cheating is absurd. This is no different than finding a safe spot where mobs cant path to and sitting there nuking with impunity. Exploiting pathing is not intelligently taking advantage of a game mechanic, it is cheating. Your example is no different than the mob upstairs in unrest that couldn't path down the stairs, or the pathing exploit in the basement, or the pickclaw goblin safe ledge in highpass keep, or the ice giant exploit outside permafrost before mobs would teleport. 

    There's nothing tricky about it. You are describing a black and white case of cheating. You consider exploiting a bug to become unhittable by a mob "how the game is designed". I straight up do not believe that you honestly think the devs designed the pathing issues around the bar on Sol A on purpose and intended for players to become invincible there.

    You can't be serious, or I must misunderstand.

    Sorry, I disagree.  If game designers wanted mobs to ignore terrain they would program them to.

    You're saying any pathing exploit is cheating, but that's not the case.  If I fear a mob and it runs into a corner is that cheating?  How do I know a mob should or should not run into a corner.  If the mobs can't jump over the bar, why can i?

    These are mechanics that can be changed.  When I think of pathing exploits I think of a mob not knowing what to do and just standing there.  How is running back and forth any different from kiting.  Is it an exploit to run in circles while a mob follows you?  Of course not.  But I'm sure the game was designed with that in mind.

    The point isnt that exploiting is ok or not.  Exploiting is bad all the time.  The point of my post is that who defines what is an exploit. Because the player base and even GMs will have different ideas of what is or is not and if people are just being ignore or banned for the same things... that's an issue.

    • 467 posts
    September 14, 2018 5:48 PM PDT

    fazool said:

    Porygon said:....

    In everquest in sol a, there was a bar room.  The bar was too high for a gnome to jump over,  and too low for anything but a dwarf and halfling.   You could gather up 20 to 30 mobs,  get low health aggro and just jump back and forth over the bar.   The mobs would run all the way around to room to try she'd get to you while your group slowly killed them. 

    The first is absolutely an exploit that needed to be corrected and those that abused it punished.   The second is clever use of game mechanics.   If that's how the game is designed,  why is it exploiting. ...

     

    I think this is a really good response and captures the ambiguity inherent in this topic.

    I agree there are some things that are blatantly exploitive and should be punished harshly (like plat duplicating from a bug).

    On the opposite end, there are really interesting things that make the game a magical place, where players "invent" ways to go through the world.  Things like quad kiting, FD pulling, root-rotting, etc.  These are all "valid" ways to use the game mechanics but I don't think the developers ever imagined a time when they were inventing FD back around 1995 that they thought "OK so if there's a crowd of mobs a player can aggro one then run away with a small train and FD to split them"   The Dev's made FD as an escape mechanism but players adapted the mechanic into a whole new way to play the game.  Same with root and DoTs.  I don't think the Devs ever (again back in the early 90's) thought OK, so you can put a damage-over-time spell on a mob, then root it in place and just keep refreshing the spells while you sit and med until the mob  dies.  I don't think they saw that coming.  The players adapted the game mechanic into a whole new way to play the game.

    Now, somewhere in between, there are those things that are less clear-cut.   Things that aren't blatant exploits (aren't using accidental bugs) but are bypassing or giving an advantage that a Dev didn't foresee.  Such as the Crushbone belt quest.  A totally valid quest and fun to do.  Did the Dev's ever think that players would realize you could blast up to level 10 or 11 in a couple hours by just repeating this quest 4 or 5 times?  Of course not.  They didn't mean for this quest to give you a shortcut to bypass levels 5-9.  It just happened.  

    It is a very vague and imperfect topic.

    Not sure what you are referencing. There was no FD in 95' and no MMO's in the early 90's.

    • Moderator
    • 8082 posts
    September 14, 2018 6:13 PM PDT

    That would most likely be considered a punishable offence.

    I don't necessarily think it is bad design either but forcing a grind onto your players who have most likely already played the older zone to death is not a good choice of how to handle it, in my opinion.

    The act of exploiting, in this instance, is punishable if caught but it would usually depend on how widely the exploit was used and how much of an advantage/profit was gained, so it would usually be judged on a case by case basis.

    • 734 posts
    September 14, 2018 6:27 PM PDT

    Looks guys if you are doing something and it isn't suppose to be happening, like mobs running g weird routes, mobs not reach to your destination, quest givers giving you your items back even though you got the reward or anything like this, it's simple report it to the gms or the devs and don't do it again and don't advertise it, it is really quite easy, people trying to say that if they are doing it so I have to do it to keep up is simply spreading the disease and not doing themselves any favors.  You can say I might be taking the high road but I can definately say that if I see someone exploiting anything I have no problem taking a video of you as proof and send it to who ever I have to get the problem fixed, and if they so happen to suspend you in the process than so be it, you knew what you were doing was wrong we aren't 5 years old and shouldn't be treated as if we are

    • 13 posts
    September 14, 2018 7:05 PM PDT

    I believe that's why they have Alphas and Betas..at least it used to be. It used to be about fixing a game before release. It used to be about making sure things were balanced as much as possilble and fair before release.

    Nowadays its about "early access" as a way to help fund a games production with players paying to get into the game before it's ever released to the general public.

    In my opinion it is 100% the responsibility of the gaming developers to identify and fix issues within the game. If players can find a way to circumvent things then they should have been anticipated and tested right out of the game during alpha and beta. If they weren't and it is having an overwhelming impact on the game than the devs should intercede but DO own some of the responsibility for it in the first place. 

    If a car company sells you a car with something defective, they own it. They issue a recall and other than the owner being inconvenienced with having the item they purchased fixed they are not punished for the bad product the company put out.

    Why we let game developers get away with anything less than that is our own fault as consumers. We allow it. If there is a company that is predatory towards customers who are using their buggy, failed-ass product and find some way to benefit from it, than its up to the company to make it right to everyone else. 

    EQs way of not taking away what was given already was a very good approach to handling customers. Vanguards way of having a half ass beta, not thoroughly testing everything and then punishing players for finding ways to not grind all content that they "didn't intend" and then banning those players was a very bad approach. 

    Beta test the hell out of it. Thats what you are supposed to do. It's not a cash grab, its your responsibility to put out the best possible product and not make excuses. 

    • 797 posts
    September 14, 2018 8:50 PM PDT

    Thanks everyone for the great posts and points you've all made.  I guess the reality is that this is one of those sort of grey areas that depends on your perspective.

    I mentioned in the original post I had a strong opinion... so here it is.  I don't think what the players in my example were doing was right.

    I am very much about respecting the games I'm playing, and the spirit in which things are implemented.  I don't believe that it's right to use an obvious loophole for my benefit.  A lot depends on the game and the situation, but I find that most of the time, if I find a tactic that makes a portion of the game dramatically easier than it would be normally, that just doesn't sit well with me at all.  So for example, if I found that there was a ledge I could sit on and shoot enemies below with impunity, and gamewide, mobs or NPCs have no counter to me doing that - then that seems like an exploit rather than an intended form of gameplay.

    Outside of combat situations it tends to be a lot more clear-cut, for me.  Repeatedly accepting and then abandoning a quest without completing it in order to gain items that are granted along the way is a clear exploit in my opinion.  The same would go for cancelling out of a trade or interaction repeatedly, or doing anything else that is really taking advantage of something that's poorly implemented.

    If I find one of these exploits in games I'm playing, I report it, and then avoid using it.  I agree that it's on the devs to close the loopholes and sometimes that takes time.  But, I don't believe it's right for me or anyone else to take advantage of something just because we don't want to put the time or effort in to do things the right way.  Not only does it feel like cheating to me, but I think it also devalues the accomplishements of players who didn't use those exploits along the way.

    As for what should happen to people who use exploits?  My personal opinion is that they should have the rewards they earned while exploiting stripped away from them.  I don't necessarily agree with suspensions or bans for a first offense though I support that for repeat offenders.  I guess I'm optimistic that people can see the error of their ways and change.

    So I guess to sum up, for me it comes down to respecting the game and people who achieve things in the game the "right" way.  I think sometimes that too many people have an attitude that it's just a game and if the game "lets" them do something, that makes it ok, and I really, violently disagree with that attitude.  That doesn't absolve the developers of the responsibility to close loopholes and fix exploits when they're found, but we players shouldn't get a free pass to abuse them either, just because they haven't been fixed yet.

    That's my personal opinion.

     

    • 445 posts
    September 14, 2018 9:36 PM PDT

    In testing there is no such thing as an exploit.  We all know that when the test phase is over the database will mostly be scrubbed clean and everything starts over.  In testing it is our jobs to test everything.  EVERYTHING.  FIND those exploits.  Share them with the testers and DevTeam.  Do your /bug reports.  But once we go live, all bets are off.  Don't exploit.  It never ends well.

    • 1247 posts
    September 14, 2018 10:39 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    Keno Monster said:

    Porygon said:

    The issue with rolling back characters needs to directly be related to the type and severity of the exploit.  When garrison's first came out in wow you could have an herb garden.   The herbs would grow once a day and you could collect them.   If you left your garrison at level 2 instead of level 3 and you choose to grow frost lotus (i think)... the frost lotus would respawn allowing you to have an endless supply.  

    In everquest in sol a, there was a bar room.  The bar was too high for a gnome to jump over,  and too low for anything but a dwarf and halfling.   You could gather up 20 to 30 mobs,  get low health aggro and just jump back and forth over the bar.   The mobs would run all the way around to room to try she'd get to you while your group slowly killed them. 

    The first is absolutely an exploit that needed to be corrected and those that abused it punished.   The second is clever use of game mechanics.   If that's how the game is designed,  why is it exploiting. 

     

    No, just no. This rationalization of cheating is absurd. This is no different than finding a safe spot where mobs cant path to and sitting there nuking with impunity. Exploiting pathing is not intelligently taking advantage of a game mechanic, it is cheating. Your example is no different than the mob upstairs in unrest that couldn't path down the stairs, or the pathing exploit in the basement, or the pickclaw goblin safe ledge in highpass keep, or the ice giant exploit outside permafrost before mobs would teleport. 

    There's nothing tricky about it. You are describing a black and white case of cheating. You consider exploiting a bug to become unhittable by a mob "how the game is designed". I straight up do not believe that you honestly think the devs designed the pathing issues around the bar on Sol A on purpose and intended for players to become invincible there.

    You can't be serious, or I must misunderstand.

    Sorry, I disagree.  If game designers wanted mobs to ignore terrain they would program them to.

    You're saying any pathing exploit is cheating, but that's not the case.  If I fear a mob and it runs into a corner is that cheating?  How do I know a mob should or should not run into a corner.  If the mobs can't jump over the bar, why can i?

    These are mechanics that can be changed.  When I think of pathing exploits I think of a mob not knowing what to do and just standing there.  How is running back and forth any different from kiting.  Is it an exploit to run in circles while a mob follows you?  Of course not.  But I'm sure the game was designed with that in mind.

    The point isnt that exploiting is ok or not.  Exploiting is bad all the time.  The point of my post is that who defines what is an exploit. Because the player base and even GMs will have different ideas of what is or is not and if people are just being ignore or banned for the same things... that's an issue.

    Keep moving them goalpoasts. Fear is an intentional game mechanic. Exploiting pathing to make it so you are IMPOSSIBLE TO BE HIT is a cheat, period, end of story. Don't spin. 

    You are equating a programming deficiency to an intentional game mechanic. Again, I can't take you seriously. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at September 14, 2018 10:54 PM PDT
    • 815 posts
    September 15, 2018 7:01 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I would like to hear everyone's thoughts about a topic I was confronted with earlier today.

    In a game I play right now, there are a few quests that require the player to collect a large-ish number of things from doing older content, in order to complete.  The developers of the game built the quests as a way to get players to go back and run older content and potentially help newer players out.  However, most people working on the quests seem to just view the activity as a painful grind.

    Today, I witnessed a group of players discussing in open chat how to speed things up by repeatedly accepting and then abandoning a subquest without completing it - all so that they could get through the grind faster.  In their minds, this was simply the most efficient way to finish the larger quest and they were recommending it to other people working on the same thing.  Not a single one of them ever even considered that what they were doing might be thought of as an exploit.  I have my own opinion about what they were doing and it's kind of a strong one.  But the whole situation really made me wonder how everyone really feels about this kind of thing.  

    You might be asking, "What does this have to do with Pantheon?"  I think it has everything to do with Pantheon, myself.  One of the things many of us have said that we want in Pantheon is a return to a more meaningful progression where we have to spend time working on things.  We don't want instant gratification where stuff is just handed to us.  That's going to mean that there will be times when leveling or quests or faction or whatever feels like a grind.  Thus my question:  If you're faced with a grind in game, and there's a small exploit (like repeatedly accepting and then abandoning a quest) that will let you finish it more quickly, is that ok, since the game allows you to do it?  Or is it not ok?  And if it's not ok, what should the response be?

    exploiting is never ok, and when it is discovered that someone is exploiting, the punishment should fit the crime.  For example, if they exploit by accident thinking that it is a game mechanic, they should get a less severe puniishment than if they know that they are actively exploiting a bug in the game.

    • 127 posts
    September 15, 2018 8:17 AM PDT

    @OP :

    I believe there is a huge difference between :

    -bug exploit = taking advantage of a glitch in the game that was not intended by the developpers,

    -game mechanism exploit = taking advantage of a feature implemented by the developpers, which is also called "emergent gameplay".

     

    The situation you describe, abandonning the quest, is a feature made by developpers, and as such, shouldn't be considered a bug exploit.

    It is a smart use of the system. It is emergent gameplay.

     

    Then, it's up to the developpers to decide if it's ok to leave it or fix/nerf it.

    But punish the players for using it ? No.