Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Is exploiting ok when it's just shortening a grind?

This topic has been closed.
    • 3852 posts
    September 15, 2018 9:37 AM PDT

    The code of conduct should prohibit exploits and warn that using them may result in sanctions up to and including removal of currency, removal of experience gained, suspensions and bans.

    The code of conduct should define exploit in some detail otherwise this wouldn't be at all fair.

    Taking advantage of an obvious bug is something most of us would call an exploit. But not all. Some people argue that a bug is not the player's fault (true), that it can be difficult to know when a ...strange ... result is a bug or something the developers intended for reasons best known to them (sometimes true), that even if it is said on the forums that something is clearly a bug not all players read the forums or should be expected to (true), and that any bug that obviously is a bug not a feature will be promptly reported by someone (almost surely true unless it is in content that only a few people have gotten to and those people are exploiting or oblivious) and once reported it is the job of the developers not the players to fix the problem (fix the bug or disable the conduct that can produce exploitive results) (true).

    Where there is no rational game-related reason that something should work a particular way, and it produces a result that gives players some significant benefit over and above what they can get by normal game play, most of us would say it is an exploit.

    Contrary to bobwinner I consider the OP's example a classic case of a bug and an exploit.

    To me emergent play is a character doing something that works as intended but that some clever or lucky player did in a way that the developers may not have intended. 

    I acknowledge freely that the difference can be subtle but the OP's example is not in the gray area - it is exploiting a bug.

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 15, 2018 9:38 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    September 15, 2018 10:17 AM PDT

    Are we so bored waiting for release that we need to get entertainment by attacking other people that pledged and that presumably want the game to succeed as much as we do?

    Porygon this comment isn't directed at you - I wouldn't call your post exactly temperate or necessarily agree with anything you just said but you were more than abundantly provoked in this case. I foresee some cleaning up of this thread in the near future. Better if we don't force VR to spend their time doing this thread after thread ((plaintive and naive murmur - can't we all just get along?))

    • 96 posts
    September 15, 2018 10:19 AM PDT

     

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can’t do."

    - Captain Jack Sparrow

     

    If VR has not found an exploit but an adventurer has and they have the opportunity to capitalize on it, so be it. It's a pirates life for me, Yo Ho!

     

    • 3852 posts
    September 15, 2018 10:34 AM PDT

    Pirate is simply a name for a criminal that chooses to practice murder and robbery on water instead of on land.

    I much prefer:

    The only rules that really matter are these: what a person should do and what a person shouldn't do.

    • 96 posts
    September 15, 2018 10:40 AM PDT

    What a person "should" do is very subjective. Anyway, I have never used/found an exploit in any game I've played, probably because i dont look for them. I'm just kidding since this thread has turned into quite the joke already.

     

    • 129 posts
    September 15, 2018 1:18 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Contrary to bobwinner I consider the OP's example a classic case of a bug and an exploit.

    You got to tell me how clicking on "abandon quest" is a bug.

    • 1714 posts
    September 15, 2018 3:13 PM PDT

    bobwinner said:

    dorotea said:

    Contrary to bobwinner I consider the OP's example a classic case of a bug and an exploit.

    You got to tell me how clicking on "abandon quest" is a bug.

    I'm assuming you get credit for the quest? The OP never actually said what was happening. 

    • 1584 posts
    September 15, 2018 3:19 PM PDT

    Gdub01 said:

    I believe that's why they have Alphas and Betas..at least it used to be. It used to be about fixing a game before release. It used to be about making sure things were balanced as much as possilble and fair before release.

    Nowadays its about "early access" as a way to help fund a games production with players paying to get into the game before it's ever released to the general public.

    In my opinion it is 100% the responsibility of the gaming developers to identify and fix issues within the game. If players can find a way to circumvent things then they should have been anticipated and tested right out of the game during alpha and beta. If they weren't and it is having an overwhelming impact on the game than the devs should intercede but DO own some of the responsibility for it in the first place. 

    If a car company sells you a car with something defective, they own it. They issue a recall and other than the owner being inconvenienced with having the item they purchased fixed they are not punished for the bad product the company put out.

    Why we let game developers get away with anything less than that is our own fault as consumers. We allow it. If there is a company that is predatory towards customers who are using their buggy, failed-ass product and find some way to benefit from it, than its up to the company to make it right to everyone else. 

    EQs way of not taking away what was given already was a very good approach to handling customers. Vanguards way of having a half ass beta, not thoroughly testing everything and then punishing players for finding ways to not grind all content that they "didn't intend" and then banning those players was a very bad approach. 

    Beta test the hell out of it. Thats what you are supposed to do. It's not a cash grab, its your responsibility to put out the best possible product and not make excuses. 

    I have respect towards a game, and when I see a flaw, exploit, or simply buggy I will let the gaming devs know about it, send a video to show them what I mean, and stay away from it,  becuase it an honest mistake, and like everyone says there is no such thing as a prefect program so to expect them to watch them all is naive.

    And as for your car dealership analogy if a car has a flaw in it, it could lead to getting your family injured or worse so yeah much worse in every way.  

    • 1584 posts
    September 15, 2018 3:35 PM PDT

    And as another thought I'm finding it difficult to believe how we want a difficult and challenging game, but when it comes to exploiting the game we want the devs to put on kid gloves and pat us on the back, when they catch us using them.  Now I understand if we are completing a repeatable quest and completing them legitly and it giving us more experience than its suppose to but we not know that it is, becuase that is in a sense an exploit but not one that we can know, but if that repeatable quest is allowing you to get your items back to complete it again report it, do the honorable thing, I know it can be hard to resist but don't you want the game to stay challenging?  

    • 945 posts
    September 15, 2018 4:33 PM PDT

    It depends on what your definition of exploiting is.  In my opinion what you described is not "exploiting" but rather just skipping game content.  Exploiting is manipulating vulnerabilities in game code in order to do things that the developers did not want to happen, like walking through walls or finding a spot in the world that you can log out in and log back in somewhere else.  What you are describing was actually a very reliable mechanic used in EQ called Multi-Questing or MQ.  One player would do all of the work (that was likely trivial to them at the time) and then allow another player to do the last part of a quest (which was typically a monetary turn in) and then receive the reward while avoiding all of the quest content.  This wasn't "exploiting" but simply circumventing content.  If a game has a mechanic that allows you to intentionally skip content then it is giving the players the option to do so.  In the OP example, if the devs did not want players to be able to skip that portion of the quest it would be quite simple to not allow that quest to be abandoned.  

    In regard to PRotF, of course "actual" exploitation should be addressed appropriately.  A large part of our jobs as Alpha testers will be to attempt to find exploits and report them to be corrected.

    • 9115 posts
    September 15, 2018 5:41 PM PDT

    Thread cleaned up, personal attacks will not be tolerated anymore. If you cannot discuss a topic without attacking another member, further action may be taken. I suggest those people take a breath and remove themselves from discussion or just not join in on them in the first place if they cannot control their urge to attack others.