Keno Monster said:1. Can't stand it. Crafting is for the birds. There's "nothing worse" than killing some mob in a fun tough encounter and having it drop crafting components or recipes.
2. Of course.
3. It's important, if only because other people love it so much. It's also good for the game to take people out of "killing things" content and divert them into crafting.
These are literally the same answers I have. I hate it. I know it will be in. And I know there will be some level of importance that will probably force me into doing it.
It really depends on the crafting system in order for me to answer this fairly. I think crafting is very important to a good many players and it would exclude some folks were it not implemented in some capacity. For me, personally, I like to dabble in it provided that it does not become too tedious. But what I consider tedious may be someone else's bread and butter. Being that Pantheon is a social game, I think it only right that crafters should also be interdependent upon eachother. However, I don't want to have to track down 10 different tradeskillers in order for me to complete one smple item in my chosen tradeskill class. On the flip side, were I able to crank out 100 items in, say, 10 minutes or less, that becomes boring and offers no challenge at all. In short, I enjoy crafting..it needs to be an important part of the game...but I don't spend the bulk of my game time being a crafter.
Kaen said:I liked crafting in the older MMOs, but not so much since WoW and beyond.
I really don't mind tedious, grindy, time-consuming, PITA crafting. In fact, I prefer it because it keeps a lot of other people from doing it. And when fewer people want to tackle the mountain that is crafting, the more valuable and rewarding (and therefore, imo, fun) it is to partake. When everyone is constantly harvesting everything, and every single person has a craft maxed out because it's so easy to keep maxed while leveling... it really loses its appeal to me. Nobody really needs you, and there's not much benefit to crafting for others because most people can either do it themselves or get it done at cost. Or just farm the materials themselves (rather easily) then have a friend do it.
It just boils down to people's playstyle and what the majority of people want. If you don't like crafting but you want easy access to one of the crafts, then you'll definitely want it to be as simple and streamlined as possible. If you play for maybe an hour or so a day, you'll probably want crafting to be something you can do rather quickly and effortlessly so that you can spend more time out and about with friends in dungeons or what not.
Another way to look at it is how good will crafted stuff be? If it's something TONS of people are doing because it's simple and quick, crafted stuff probably isn't going to be very good and therefore hardly worth the time anyway. If it's a huge PITA and requires a lot of time and effort, and fewer people are doing it, the stuff can be of a much higher quality, more potent, more desirable, etc...
Oh, another thing I HATE in more recent MMOs is every stupid thing dropping a million different crafting items so that your bank is full by the time you're level 20. It's ridiculous. My bags shouldn't be full of crafting junk after hunting for 20 minutes.
Anyhoo.... I imagine I'm in the minority here, but if Pantheon tries to make crafting appealing to everyone, it probably won't appeal to me.
+1 to that minority. Agree with everything you wrote.
Kilsin said:Crafting - How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I like crafting very much. Crafting is something that I expect is built into the foundations of the game from the bottom up. I consider crafting one of the 3 primary legs of the MMO stool. PVE, PVP, Crafting. One could argue that mercantile is a seperate 4th leg.
I expect and demand crafting to be robust, not something that feels tacked on or feels like an afterthought (Warhammer Online and SWTOR gave me that impression.) I expect it to be deep and involved and not a push button/win situation like WoW. I want my tedium and chance of failure to scale up based on the items rarity that I am attempting to craft. I expect to see some BiS gear result from crafting even if its only situation gear (Onyxia cloak comes to mind from WoW).
A successful MMO has a large variety of things to do depending on a players mood and or time availible. Reducing anything to the level of meaningless is a good way to shoot your game in the foot; you get a bored player base and one that will go shopping for something else to play. You need group, raid, and some solo content for PVE, you need some version of PVP somehow/somewhere, you need crafting, and you need a great economy and mercantile system.
Kilsin said:Crafting - How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I, myself, am not interested in being a crafter, unless brewing is going to be a thing. Like EQ did for making poisons, but you could also brew alcohol. Then I'd be on it like a fat kid on a donut. I can, however, appreciate it, and like it for others. I think it should be an integral part of the game.
Crafting -
How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs? Love crafting and do it in every MMORPG that I've played
Is crafting something you expect to be in-game? Yes, crafting seems to be in every MMO so I'd expect no different
How important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? It's not. It's like Pandora's box and better left alone. It takes dev time and money away from the primary focus of the game and never makes people happy. Crafters want to make items that are in high demand but that's a hard thing to accomplish. If crafters can make buff items then that detracts from classes. Why seek out a druid/shammy for sow, and enchanter for mana regen, or a cleric for AC/HP buffs when you can just buy them off the crafters. Give crafters the ability to make weapons/armor equivelant to group named dungeon drops then why risk the dangers of diing deep in a dungeon and the difficult CR if you can just buy a similar item from a crafter.
I thought Vanguard was on the right track when they had boats, houses, and guild halls require tons of harvested items used by all crafter classes to make. Everyone wanted those items and had nothing to do with the adventuring side, but Pantheon wont have those items at launch. Perhaps crafting never works out because no one has done it right yet and Pantheon will be the first, but by track record I would expect a large group of people are going to end up being upset with how it works out. It feels like Devs just keep beating that dead horse but like an insane person, I'll try crafting yet again and hope for a different result.
I hate it. It's always forced in some way. It seems like just a way to add tedium and content to keep people wandering around in any mmo. Weather it's holding on to tons of material for just in case or running all over the world to loot 300 X, it's just clogged inventory space. tradeskills are always limited to anything being usefull to the top teir skill, and even then, the items are not that great compaired to other content. It sucks even when you get X mat to drop off Y boss, and have to take that to a crafter with 7 other rare ingrediants, just so the crafter can charge you 2 arms and your firstborn just to hit combine for you. Some people like that though, so it's usually in games. I try to steer clear from crafting as much as possible.
I hope VR is paying attention to the sheer amount of people that want a system similar, and if possible improved, on the Vanguard crafting experience. There's 100+ responses on Facebook about this question and it seems like every other one refers to Vanguard's crafting as the measuring stick.
I love that crafting is in a game... I don't love actually doing the crafting.
I like that others can craft things for me to buy, and sometimes I will level up some crafting stuff on my own. But I personally don't usually enjoy the crafting part of games and just do it because it's something that helps my character out. I do enjoy the idea of going out adventuring to find those rare crafting componants, but I'd rather just bring them back to a friend who can use them to make the items for me :-)
If the game somehow made a really fun crafting system, or one that was so unintrusive and easy that it didn't bother me to do it, that would be great :-)
Kilsin said:Crafting - How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I think crafting truly shines for me in the realm of trade. I can invest money into my crafting and sell better things!
It is important for all games though in the realm of immersion and content. Much more fun to get a leather from a few rats, and learn how to make it into a chestpiece, rather than a free chestpiece after killing a few rats. It even natuarlly promotes your in game society by bringing together those with rat skins and those with leatherworking prowess.
I do love crafting. I don't think I've ever experienced a game where it was done perfectly, whatever that is.
I used to like making arrows for my rogue (EQ), the top end arrows hit pretty hard and added some versatlity to the class, as did poisons in EQ2.
I enjoyed other games which made it possible for crafting to influence the economy, creating a mini game in essence.
I enjoy being able to tailor my look, if only with dyes.
I did not enjoy failing with expensive components.
I did not enjoy running out of bank/bag space.
I would not enjoy a crafting system which has no end game. Nothing worse than maxing crafting only to find it is useless at max level. I could give you a list of games which this applies to :(
Blood
I enjoy crafting in most games. I really, really love harvesting for whatever reason. Can't explain it, won't even try. It's just my way of "zen-ing out" in most games. (Not just MMO's. Spent hours just running around in Dragon Age: Inquisition harvesting stuff that I'd never use. In the ill-fated EQ Next, all I did was harvest and craft. Never built anything interesting.)
I am not a fan of "one click" crafting like in Rift or SWTOR. I actually enjoyed the minor interactiveness of crafting in EQ2, where you had to use special crafting abilities to influence and sometimes counteract against events that occurred during the crafting. They used to have "levels" of quality in the beginning as well. Example: You were trying to make a recipe you learned, but it was a bit higher level than you. You could make the item, but you may not be able to make it pristine, so it would be slightly lower quality or have less bag slots or something. Still a useable item, but not your best work. Also, in the beginning of EQ2's life, crafting was quite interdependant. Crafting classes would make a crafting component others would need. Everyone relied on everyone else for little things like oils, washes, dyes. I think - maybe - provisioners were the only crafters that didn't make or require anyone elses components. They took that away fairly early on, which is a shame.
I don't recall much of SWG's crafting. I do recall the harvesting was a unique thing and you had to relocate your node harvesting machines from time to time as your resources in the area were depleted and new one's spawned.
Kilsin said:Crafting - How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I'm not big on it, but i dont dislike it eather. I consider this to be one of the parts of an MMO I'm looking to recover in Pantheon. Building a Charrictor instead of Dressing a Doll. Skills that a charrictor can learn. I will train a couple crafting skills, but these will be place fillers and not a main focus for me.
Now my wife, also will be playing Pantheon and this and more so Gathering will be extreamly important to her. It is not uncommon for her to NEED to reluctantly go out and Level a charrictor just because she cant skill up her knitting or gardening or something. If Pantheon doesent have something for Her they will lose that sub for sure. And i dont know what a faction hit like that would do for my play time eather.
So I belive it to be extreamly important for the game.
Kilsin said:Crafting - How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
This one is so simple that it can be answered with 1 line .
Crafting is one of the major systems that bring life and social interactions in an MMORPG so that I will never play one (Pantheon included) if there is no crafting .
KrasnayaSolnza said: My complaint with crafting is that in no game I’ve played has crafting had any impact on gear. The content and leveling obsoletes gear so quickly that either making or buying crafted gear irrelevant. Where crafting shines is in the consumable market people use to get an edge, like potions, enhancements etc or ammo. I have nothing against crafting but aside from consumables it is superfluous for gearing as leveling mob drops and quest rewards outstrip the value and effort of crafted gear.
It could be a valid point you're making towards the sort of gift/reward/loot one gets throughout the game. I hope the dev's pick up on this, because you actually showed a valuable weakness in most mmo's design. Instead of a mob dropping an entire chestpiece, one could just drop a piece of it or a broken one. Which if you want to wear it needs a crafter and resources to repair it and make it wearable for you. Instead of the npc gifting you boots with full stats, the questreward could in fact be (most of) the resources to aquire the boots, or give you boots without other stats than mitigation and/or runspeed, but with the aid of a crafter you could upgrade the boots so that they in fact have stats as well instead of just mitigation and runspeed.
I'm not saying this is the golden nugget, but for argument sake, let's say the entire loot and rewardsystem is set in such a manner. You'll need crafters throughout the entire game and not just the first few levels or just at max end for the elite outfits. Crafters will be influence the market heavely and be a logic step throughout the system, as there would be no other way of getting gear with (improved) stats.
One could argue that for people that just want to kill and loot, this is a dealbreaker. But that's up to the dev's to decide what style of game they are aiming for. You'll always have people that dislike certain games. Also if the craftsystem is build to make trade and commission work a smooth tool in the game, instead of going to an npc to empty their bags, they could in fact just turn to a crafter standing near an npc or craftstation or whatever and empty his bags and get stuff in return. (Better stuff, useable stuff, more expensive stuff). This in turn would put a smile on the kill/loot-player and he'll be off to the mobs, better geared and/or freshly fueled with provisions.
KrasnayaSolnza said: The content and leveling obsoletes gear so quickly that either making or buying crafted gear irrelevant.
This certainly was not the case in EQ among others .
Banded armor was in very high demand (I still remember the price - 1PP per AC) for the simple reason that one could get a decent FULL armor at once (e.g all 12 pieces) . Many people were still wearing banded in some slots from 1 to 20 + . A full fine steel set was also excellent at high level but here it was so expensive that only the wealthy players could afford it .
Wu's armor . Same like banded . In high demand for all monks and again a FULL set was possible .
Jewelry . Here some pieces never went obsolete untill level cap (especially high level full resist sets) . People wee using crafted jewelry from the lowest to the highest level all over the place . However it is to be noted that getting jewelcrafting to 300 was a very expensive and time consuming process so that the rewards were correspondingly high .
Spell crafting . Here it is simple . It was so hard and expensive to level up that only a few high level researchers existed on every server . Yet every single caster class needed those crafted spells so that the market was huge and the demand perpetual . Of course the spells could also drop but who would wait for the millionth kill to get the right spell and win the roll ?
My learning to enjoy crafting is a side effect of a previous forum topic on " has the challenge been removed form MMO's?" In that topic, the main points are around the environment being hard, dieing if there is more then one monster in your camp area or if the random high level comes through. Danger everywhere.
Danger everywhere is fun, one you get through it and get more confident. It's kind of a stressfull and annoying if you keep dieing and losing your stuff. My inquiry or investigation into crafting came from this stress. I would log in and first thought would be, ... not again..I hope I dont die.... again.
this is a streem of thought coming from a healthy tantrum (precursor to rage-quitting) provided in "frame" of game environment -> its frustrating and I dont think I can get it and I want to play and get good and I am not good! and the country is so pretty I want to be safe and look around and talk to people and tell stories and do something! that is not fighting because fighting leads to dieing and self depreciation *fumes*... crafting? pshaw the uber people dont craft, they are out succeeding!. all this junk in my bags... hey! I polished a rusty sword! hey !I can get a bit more form the merchant now. I'm talking to people asking for Mats or sharing what i discovered- in town and safe and chatting and ... playing and not dieing. Hey! I've got bags space!
then 10 levels later being able to group in a hard area with good players and havign time inbetween to chat how good that made me feel and then to offer some baked goods thati crafted alaowed a bit of improvisational RP because of the name of the food and people reacting to it and telling stories even smal ones, inbetween pulls.
I see crafting as another way to "succeed", I see it as a part of the Meta game but purely driven by emotional reasons.
Deadshade said:KrasnayaSolnza said: The content and leveling obsoletes gear so quickly that either making or buying crafted gear irrelevant.This certainly was not the case in EQ among others .
Banded armor was in very high demand (I still remember the price - 1PP per AC) for the simple reason that one could get a decent FULL armor at once (e.g all 12 pieces) . Many people were still wearing banded in some slots from 1 to 20 + . A full fine steel set was also excellent at high level but here it was so expensive that only the wealthy players could afford it .
Wu's armor . Same like banded . In high demand for all monks and again a FULL set was possible .
Jewelry . Here some pieces never went obsolete untill level cap (especially high level full resist sets) . People wee using crafted jewelry from the lowest to the highest level all over the place . However it is to be noted that getting jewelcrafting to 300 was a very expensive and time consuming process so that the rewards were correspondingly high .
Spell crafting . Here it is simple . It was so hard and expensive to level up that only a few high level researchers existed on every server . Yet every single caster class needed those crafted spells so that the market was huge and the demand perpetual . Of course the spells could also drop but who would wait for the millionth kill to get the right spell and win the roll ?
Banded is a great example. The chain classes sometimes wore banded for months. Until the temple of sol ro came out, there wasn't a clear path to upgrading each slot. I think crafting armor sets could be targeted at level ranges where there maybe intentional gaps in gear availability.