Venjenz said:Kilsin said:To Clarify:
1) There will be a real death penalty, I just can't go into specifics yet and we will tweak during testing.
2) There will be a need for corpse runs if you release from your corpse (most likely when you die, you can lay there for a limited time in case you can receive a rez, if not you respawn and have to make your way back) again, still a WIP with testing needed.
Recent discussions, feedback from devs, etc have all hinted or outright stated that there will be no permanent item loss from corpse decay and there will be no de-leveling. Take those two things away and there is no real death penalty. At max level, there is literally nothing to fear anymore. You cannot lose the gear you have, you cannot delevel, and exp loss is meaningless.
What needs stated unequivocally is whether death "penalty" includes corpse timers that if exceeded, will result in loss of everything that corpse had on it, how long those timers will be if they are going to exist, and whether exp loss can de-level a character. Those are the core elements of a legit death penalty, and those elements need to be explained.
I agree with ya Venjenz, and feel the generic answer we go doesn't clear anything up really... it's just the vague open ended answer they are prepared to use at this time. But I think we need to understand that and I'm going to give them the benifit of the doubt that they know how many of us fell about how trivial "just exp.loss" is as a death penalty.
Item loss is out
De-level is likely/possibly out.
But that's not to say they don't have something else up there sleeve that they aren't ready to release yet! It wouldn't be the first time this team has pulled a rabbi out of a hat. We just have to wait and see.
So my opinion on this thread hasn't changed a bit, it still "looks" to me like the Devs have stepped out on that slippery Wow hand holding slope and are sliding fast. But that all could be a marketing ploy as well...maybe they don't want to scare anybody off before they get a chance to try it.
I don't know at this point, but I'm not discouraged or what was it Gurt called me "disappointed" I'm in it for the long haul.
But it sure does talk like a Duck, well just need to wait and see how it walks!
bigdogchris said:I really do not believe (nor want) teleporters between continents will be necessary if there are player based ports and boats.
IF developers add them anyways, I hope the teleporters are only between continents and not between cities.
Agreed. Gotta admit, confirmation that portals will be in cities kinda bummed me out.
I may have misread but i did not see confirmation of city to city teleportation rather just continent to continent.
Perhaps it could be something as challenging as running through ToV to get into PoM In everquest 1. (In case you are unaware ToV is a raid zone with lots of scary mobs so it’s not an easy feat).
At least, that’s my hopes.
eldrun said:I may have misread but i did not see confirmation of city to city teleportation rather just continent to continent.
Perhaps it could be something as challenging as running through ToV to get into PoM In everquest 1. (In case you are unaware ToV is a raid zone with lots of scary mobs so it’s not an easy feat).
At least, that’s my hopes.
Yea, y'know what? I misread like an idiot. He did indeed say "continents" and not cities.
Additionally, when I first read it, I assumed he meant portals as in, EQ Luclin portals. However, he could easily just mean "portals" as in portal LOCATIONS for druid and wizard teleporting spells.
So, I feel better now.
I agree with the general sentiment from the OP.
But a few things I would disagree with:
1) level of "polish" in WoW. WoW may have seemed polished but it was overly cartoony and that was a distraction to immersion, for me.
2) WoW set the bar high. I think they lowered the bar. They dumbed down the entire MMORPG genre. It attracted a huge number of players so everyone thought it was a success, which is why WE are genre-orphans.
3) WoW was very empty. The opposite of the original Vanguard vision "if you can see it you can go there". WoW had lots of empty scenery and was very linear, just pretending to be open world.
If anyone has ever been to Disney World you know what I am talking about - everything is perfect and every little detail is attended to , even in places you aren't supposed to look (for example go around BEHIND the Tower of Terror and it's still in character). Now, go to Harry Potter world at Universal. It's all fake empty store fronts. I love HP world but it's all empty and just window dressing - no substance.
philo said:Thanks Kils, I believe it was mentioned a year or 2 back that they were, but I am bad at digging up old info. Are the pink swirly areas on the atlas the portals?
If you mean the two on this Atlas: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/lore/atlas_of_terminus/
No, they are POI's/Areas. :)
Tralyan said:bigdogchris said:I really do not believe (nor want) teleporters between continents will be necessary if there are player based ports and boats.
IF developers add them anyways, I hope the teleporters are only between continents and not between cities.
Agreed. Gotta admit, confirmation that portals will be in cities kinda bummed me out.
Yep, I want to play a wizard and port people who forgot to bind near where they are fighting. They are exping in CoM and all the sudden they die and it says You have entered Greater Faydark and realize they are bound in Gfay with no easy way back. It would be so cool to see a shout "anyone able to port me to EJ for CR?" and be there to say Yes. Now I'm just imagining PoK books from Gfay to FoB and the person doesn't need to rely on his community at all.
Sato said:Tralyan said:bigdogchris said:I really do not believe (nor want) teleporters between continents will be necessary if there are player based ports and boats.
IF developers add them anyways, I hope the teleporters are only between continents and not between cities.
Agreed. Gotta admit, confirmation that portals will be in cities kinda bummed me out.
Yep, I want to play a wizard and port people who forgot to bind near where they are fighting. They are exping in CoM and all the sudden they die and it says You have entered Greater Faydark and realize they are bound in Gfay with no easy way back. It would be so cool to see a shout "anyone able to port me to EJ for CR?" and be there to say Yes. Now I'm just imagining PoK books from Gfay to FoB and the person doesn't need to rely on his community at all.
Read the whole thread, this doesn’t seem like the case.
Sato said:Tralyan said:bigdogchris said:I really do not believe (nor want) teleporters between continents will be necessary if there are player based ports and boats.
IF developers add them anyways, I hope the teleporters are only between continents and not between cities.
Agreed. Gotta admit, confirmation that portals will be in cities kinda bummed me out.
Yep, I want to play a wizard and port people who forgot to bind near where they are fighting. They are exping in CoM and all the sudden they die and it says You have entered Greater Faydark and realize they are bound in Gfay with no easy way back. It would be so cool to see a shout "anyone able to port me to EJ for CR?" and be there to say Yes. Now I'm just imagining PoK books from Gfay to FoB and the person doesn't need to rely on his community at all.
Yeah that's great for the 1 time in 20 there is a wizard/druid there who has time and is willing to help. For the other times when you spend 10 minutes unsucessfully begging local wizards/druids for a port then spend 20 minutes begging your group not to replace you while you run to the boat, then get on the boat and your group replaces you anyway and then 10 minutes later you get back to the dungeon and spend 20 minutes trying to find another group, etc, etc.
Whilst I don't want portals *in* cities I also don't want something as fundamental as travel to be limited by 2 classes out of 12 and the chance that they will be around and willing and have time to help. And usually expect payment for it.
Yep, I want to play a wizard and port people who forgot to bind near where they are fighting. They are exping in CoM and all the sudden they die and it says You have entered Greater Faydark and realize they are bound in Gfay with no easy way back. It would be so cool to see a shout "anyone able to port me to EJ for CR?" and be there to say Yes. Now I'm just imagining PoK books from Gfay to FoB and the person doesn't need to rely on his community at all.
Read the whole thread, this doesn’t seem like the case.
I made it my case, because it's still in Pre Alpha and nothing is finalized. I am just offering up my opinion that I would like wizards and druids to save someone 30 minutes, not 3.
manofyesterday said:True, blizzard didn't invent the MMORPG genre. My first MMORPG was EverQuest.
However, I wouldn't call WoW a copy of EverQuest any more than I would call Mortal Kombat a copy of Street Fighter. I do agree with the overall sentinment that WoW is an MMORPG on training wheels and was created in such a way to appeal to a much wider audience. Unfortunately, many developers and their customers have grown acustomed to this type of MMORPG.
2004 PC games article Q&A with the developers stipulated that the game was heavily influenced by Meridian 59 and most notably, Everquest. They saw a market with Everquest that could be tapped with their player base. It paid off.
disposalist said:Sato said:Tralyan said:bigdogchris said:I really do not believe (nor want) teleporters between continents will be necessary if there are player based ports and boats.
IF developers add them anyways, I hope the teleporters are only between continents and not between cities.
Agreed. Gotta admit, confirmation that portals will be in cities kinda bummed me out.
Yep, I want to play a wizard and port people who forgot to bind near where they are fighting. They are exping in CoM and all the sudden they die and it says You have entered Greater Faydark and realize they are bound in Gfay with no easy way back. It would be so cool to see a shout "anyone able to port me to EJ for CR?" and be there to say Yes. Now I'm just imagining PoK books from Gfay to FoB and the person doesn't need to rely on his community at all.
Yeah that's great for the 1 time in 20 there is a wizard/druid there who has time and is willing to help. For the other times when you spend 10 minutes unsucessfully begging local wizards/druids for a port then spend 20 minutes begging your group not to replace you while you run to the boat, then get on the boat and your group replaces you anyway and then 10 minutes later you get back to the dungeon and spend 20 minutes trying to find another group, etc, etc.
Whilst I don't want portals *in* cities I also don't want something as fundamental as travel to be limited by 2 classes out of 12 and the chance that they will be around and willing and have time to help. And usually expect payment for it.
Except if you run healerless, they said every healer will have the ability to rez. It shouldn't be hard obtaining a rez and even if your healer died, another group can drop him a rez.
I don't think "naked corpse run scare of group kick" will be as much as it was in EQ.
MauvaisOeil said:disposalist said:Sato said:Tralyan said:bigdogchris said:I really do not believe (nor want) teleporters between continents will be necessary if there are player based ports and boats.
IF developers add them anyways, I hope the teleporters are only between continents and not between cities.
Agreed. Gotta admit, confirmation that portals will be in cities kinda bummed me out.
Yep, I want to play a wizard and port people who forgot to bind near where they are fighting. They are exping in CoM and all the sudden they die and it says You have entered Greater Faydark and realize they are bound in Gfay with no easy way back. It would be so cool to see a shout "anyone able to port me to EJ for CR?" and be there to say Yes. Now I'm just imagining PoK books from Gfay to FoB and the person doesn't need to rely on his community at all.
Yeah that's great for the 1 time in 20 there is a wizard/druid there who has time and is willing to help. For the other times when you spend 10 minutes unsucessfully begging local wizards/druids for a port then spend 20 minutes begging your group not to replace you while you run to the boat, then get on the boat and your group replaces you anyway and then 10 minutes later you get back to the dungeon and spend 20 minutes trying to find another group, etc, etc.
Whilst I don't want portals *in* cities I also don't want something as fundamental as travel to be limited by 2 classes out of 12 and the chance that they will be around and willing and have time to help. And usually expect payment for it.
Except if you run healerless, they said every healer will have the ability to rez. It shouldn't be hard obtaining a rez and even if your healer died, another group can drop him a rez.
I don't think "naked corpse run scare of group kick" will be as much as it was in EQ.
It does sound like rezzing in Pantheon will be slightly more available than in EQ. As I just said in a different thread, though, instant travel is different to rezzes. A rez happens after you've had the fun of the content but failed. A port is more often before you've even had the fun and you're stuck. In the above example, it may be alleviated by availability of rezzes, but it's still an additional time when class-restricted porting might be a pain. If a rez is available you won't even be looking for a wizard/druid.
I've been on my soapbox about class-gated teleporting lately. I'll get off, I think. I've more than made my point hehe.
disposalist said:Sato said:Tralyan said:bigdogchris said:I really do not believe (nor want) teleporters between continents will be necessary if there are player based ports and boats.
IF developers add them anyways, I hope the teleporters are only between continents and not between cities.
Agreed. Gotta admit, confirmation that portals will be in cities kinda bummed me out.
Yep, I want to play a wizard and port people who forgot to bind near where they are fighting. They are exping in CoM and all the sudden they die and it says You have entered Greater Faydark and realize they are bound in Gfay with no easy way back. It would be so cool to see a shout "anyone able to port me to EJ for CR?" and be there to say Yes. Now I'm just imagining PoK books from Gfay to FoB and the person doesn't need to rely on his community at all.
Yeah that's great for the 1 time in 20 there is a wizard/druid there who has time and is willing to help. For the other times when you spend 10 minutes unsucessfully begging local wizards/druids for a port then spend 20 minutes begging your group not to replace you while you run to the boat, then get on the boat and your group replaces you anyway and then 10 minutes later you get back to the dungeon and spend 20 minutes trying to find another group, etc, etc.
Whilst I don't want portals *in* cities I also don't want something as fundamental as travel to be limited by 2 classes out of 12 and the chance that they will be around and willing and have time to help. And usually expect payment for it.
That goes with making friends with the apropriate classes, do we want every class to rez, mez,teleport, etc.? My reputation as a wizard in EQ1 and Vanguard was cemented as I always helped and made time alloted to just that purpose and my reward was alway not having to look for a group. I was always welcomed in raids,small groups and even other guilds would invite me to their raids to teleport the to the Plain of hate for example, and they would pay for the reagents and let me keep a few. It was a lot of work and coud not loot roll for not being in their guild, however when my guild or I would need some help there were never a shortage of genuine grateful people willing to help.
This is what forges a comunity, the interdependency of one another, make the right friends and you will never lack. I do feel there should be no teleporting to cities, I did not like it in Vanguard at all, and the lag... I like teleporting in eq having to be prepared to land and fight, never knowing. I met many friends in those portals. I only hope Brad realizes that and makes the class interdependency a positive social experience that made the original EQ so great. Once peole could travel on their own in eq, that was the point it killed the server social backbone of the casual players. Large raiding guilds in numbers are not enough to sustain a game for long financially. You need those small groups of casuals. You can always be in the most powerfull guild and know some helpfull friend that while you play in non raiding time that you can count on a rez, or a teleport or a corpse pull jus as they could use an uber raider in their group to get through a tough spot.
Yaladan said:That goes with making friends with the apropriate classes, do we want every class to rez, mez,teleport, etc.? My reputation as a wizard in EQ1 and Vanguard was cemented as I always helped and made time alloted to just that purpose and my reward was alway not having to look for a group. I was always welcomed in raids,small groups and even other guilds would invite me to their raids to teleport the to the Plain of hate for example, and they would pay for the reagents and let me keep a few. It was a lot of work and coud not loot roll for not being in their guild, however when my guild or I would need some help there were never a shortage of genuine grateful people willing to help.
This is what forges a comunity, the interdependency of one another, make the right friends and you will never lack. I do feel there should be no teleporting to cities, I did not like it in Vanguard at all, and the lag... I like teleporting in eq having to be prepared to land and fight, never knowing. I met many friends in those portals. I only hope Brad realizes that and makes the class interdependency a positive social experience that made the original EQ so great. Once peole could travel on their own in eq, that was the point it killed the server social backbone of the casual players. Large raiding guilds in numbers are not enough to sustain a game for long financially. You need those small groups of casuals. You can always be in the most powerfull guild and know some helpfull friend that while you play in non raiding time that you can count on a rez, or a teleport or a corpse pull jus as they could use an uber raider in their group to get through a tough spot.
Your post gave me an idea : Since vital roles (Tank/heal/control) are usually self rewarding and looked after, shouldn't the DPS class have non combat toolks like teleports and such that would help them raising a positive reputation ? Like not giving ports to druids to make Wizards the sole "That guy helped me CR with a port", the Rogue's stealth/lockpick/traps "That guy dragged my corpse to safety and opened the way for me", the ranger "That guy died for me to loot my corpse" (that one was a joke).
I mean, as a tank if you take the lead (and you often do) and do you job well, you group has usually a high opinion of you. The healer has a direct impact of everyone's good time and can use rezzes to help/recover xp/corpse run, but DPS are often the last wheel no one really pay attention at, and especially if they are numerous in a group.
Shouldn't then, every DPS have a specific way to help others and help them forge a good reputation ? Ranger could have camouflage/group invisibility, Summonner could (and/or will probably have) sommoner full gear for CR ease and/or summoning players to them, monks could have something more direct that FD, Necromancers too, etc ..
And the idea beeing also : Not giving thoses toolks to already mandatory roles because that would only be a cherry on top of the cake.
The big thing that people relied on you for, as a ranger, was tracking. There were quests and drops that, without a ranger, were a complete and utter nightmare, while the ranger would find your mob for you in minutes. People sure remember that kind of thing.
Quite often you would get a tell from someone in your zone to please check your tracking for this or that, and I enjoyed that.
Raine said:The big thing that people relied on you for, as a ranger, was tracking. There were quests and drops that, without a ranger, were a complete and utter nightmare, while the ranger would find your mob for you in minutes. People sure remember that kind of thing.
Quite often you would get a tell from someone in your zone to please check your tracking for this or that, and I enjoyed that.
That's right, I completely forgot about tracking, which was and will be a signature action of the modern ranger. Thanks.
MauvaisOeil said:Yaladan said:That goes with making friends with the apropriate classes, do we want every class to rez, mez,teleport, etc.? My reputation as a wizard in EQ1 and Vanguard was cemented as I always helped and made time alloted to just that purpose and my reward was alway not having to look for a group. I was always welcomed in raids,small groups and even other guilds would invite me to their raids to teleport the to the Plain of hate for example, and they would pay for the reagents and let me keep a few. It was a lot of work and coud not loot roll for not being in their guild, however when my guild or I would need some help there were never a shortage of genuine grateful people willing to help.
This is what forges a comunity, the interdependency of one another, make the right friends and you will never lack. I do feel there should be no teleporting to cities, I did not like it in Vanguard at all, and the lag... I like teleporting in eq having to be prepared to land and fight, never knowing. I met many friends in those portals. I only hope Brad realizes that and makes the class interdependency a positive social experience that made the original EQ so great. Once peole could travel on their own in eq, that was the point it killed the server social backbone of the casual players. Large raiding guilds in numbers are not enough to sustain a game for long financially. You need those small groups of casuals. You can always be in the most powerfull guild and know some helpfull friend that while you play in non raiding time that you can count on a rez, or a teleport or a corpse pull jus as they could use an uber raider in their group to get through a tough spot.
Your post gave me an idea : Since vital roles (Tank/heal/control) are usually self rewarding and looked after, shouldn't the DPS class have non combat toolks like teleports and such that would help them raising a positive reputation ? Like not giving ports to druids to make Wizards the sole "That guy helped me CR with a port", the Rogue's stealth/lockpick/traps "That guy dragged my corpse to safety and opened the way for me", the ranger "That guy died for me to loot my corpse" (that one was a joke).
I mean, as a tank if you take the lead (and you often do) and do you job well, you group has usually a high opinion of you. The healer has a direct impact of everyone's good time and can use rezzes to help/recover xp/corpse run, but DPS are often the last wheel no one really pay attention at, and especially if they are numerous in a group.
Shouldn't then, every DPS have a specific way to help others and help them forge a good reputation ? Ranger could have camouflage/group invisibility, Summonner could (and/or will probably have) sommoner full gear for CR ease and/or summoning players to them, monks could have something more direct that FD, Necromancers too, etc ..
And the idea beeing also : Not giving thoses toolks to already mandatory roles because that would only be a cherry on top of the cake.
For sure MauvaisOeil, I see you understand my point, its early still and I am inpatiently waiting for the whole tree of abilities, skills and spells to be released to us, so far I smell a lot of Vanguard in this game, not that its a bad thing, the boat crafting was cool, the everyone can teleport to a city wasnt for me however, i like the travel in EQ where getting to a new area was really and adventure.