Hey all,
I'm excited to be able to share with you all a very fun and informative conversation I recently had with VR's Senior Game Designer, Corey "Ceythos" LeFever. We of course talked about Pantheon's crafting system quite a bit, but we touched on a few other things as well. There's some brand new info about the game in here, so check it out! I'd love to hear what you think!
That was an awesome interview!!! I'd love to see more of these with all the developers at some point. It feels like we are really getting to know some of our favorite people!
Loved the part about possibly having the opportunity to choose how to complete some quests, thats so much more interesting than what mmos are offering today. This is just too cool I'm very excited!
Baz! Great interview- Looking forward to more!
Great stuff, thanks Baz and thanks Corey.
Very interesting, especially the single profession - swap profession thing. I don't see any problem with having multiople characters to explore multiple professions (and classes and races) *as long as* there are things like shared banks for your characters...
Also interesting was the stated aim to make maxxing of crafting levels take as long as maxxing of adventuring levels. In most game crafting is something you can throw cash at and really speed up. I wonder how they intend to stop someone simply buying crafting resources and using those to level up 'unnaturally' fast.
I would really like to have heard something about the mechanics of the crafting UI. Corey implies they want crafting to be as fulfilling as adventuring, but rarely is actual crafting anything like as interesting and challenging as the mechanics and dynamics of group combat.
I like the idea of a blacksmith being good at salvaging armor and, so, may wish to buy broken or old gear from adventurers.
Also, I heard a dog's ear flapping! A very familiar sound to me, is that dog-having-a-shake-ear-flap! Does Corey have a dog? ;^)
EDIT: Haha! I posted that before the video ended and there's the after-titles dog intro! Nice to see Arthos! (was it, Arthos? Arthus? Arfus?).
Solid questions. Would have liked for you to inquire more about the status of the crafting mini-game. Specifically, if there are past games they are greatly planning on borrowing the concept from (Vanguard for example, specifically complications, limited action points, upgradeable tools, etc...). And, of course, have they started any work on the implementation of that mini-game yet. Or, is it still completely in the theoretical design stage.
I did like the broad strokes of the information that was discussed. There was some additional information revealed, so that's always nice. I hope you can do this again.
I wonder if allowing all types of harvesting on each character will in a way counteract the scarcity of nodes after a while into the games life. Sure it may not be an issue in the early days but as characters become more advanced and older I feel it will not be uncommon to be able to harvest almost any type of node.
Nice interview, in Ceythos i trust. Vanguard all-star.
Thanks Baz and Ceythos. You are both quite busy and setting up a good interview and editing the stream is not simple so I appreciate the effort the two of you put in to bring us ear candy.
Bouncing off Ceythos mentioning that there is some push back on specializing into half of one base crafting class. What if crafting was broken down into Apprentice, Journeyman, Master and Grand Master. All characters can learn Apprentice level skills but these are mostly just basic feeder materials without special unique effects reserved for higher levels of skill. This will allow players to try the basic functionality of each class can provide the components materials for the Journeyman tier.
You can pick two Journeyman skills. These skills would be say Stone Mason and Blacksmith. Someone with both would be able to make their own molds for casting ingots or non enchanted weapon casting blanks and possibly special flux, likewise the journeyman level stone cutting tools and settings can be made from the blacksmith side.
The master level is when you choose to specialize in one sub tiers of your two Journeyman skills. This opens up the magical and complex recipes that only a master has access too. Like wise the top versions of their skills will also require molds made by a Master Sculptor.
Finally you can reach grand master in your specialization which opens up even more powerful tiers and represents the end game of crafting.
To advance from Apprentice →> Journeyman requires a minor breakthrough event after reaching required points of experience. Likewise Journeyman →> Master requires a much more significant breakthrough event which may be easy for someone already a Master but would be very difficult from the Journeyman side.
Just to throw ideas out that may kind of split the middle on valuing specialization but not totally preventing people from experimenting with different crafting.
Trasak
So, one character per crafting profession. Check. Just like EQ2. Disappointing, but expected given previous details. I don't see how it's going to turn out any differently than EQ2, but sure, let's try something that's failed before. :)
Please, just avoid the punitive " 1% is intended " mess of Silius' (Salim Grant) so called crafting system from Vanguard. ( really, a social experience in how sadistic a crafting loop can be ) Just avoid that, and I'm sure the crafters will love it.
Vanguard crafting is the game that killed crafting for me, forever. I leveled 3 adventure characters to max and still couldn't max out crafting once in VG, even with all the "right" gear. Thousands of combines per level? Yeah, no thanks. Never again.
Nice interview! Went great with my morning coffee. If you could put out one of those per day that'd be greeeeaaatt. ;)
Loved hearing more about crafting and what to expect. Multiple ways to complete quests is awesome! I wonder how common that will be but extra choices are always welcome! Very cool.
Something I noticed during the interview that was new to me was right was around the 32:58 mark, Corey mentioned "inspiration points." Anyone know what he meant by that? Is it something specific? Perhaps tied to the perception system. Spendable points to progress in a particular sphere? Or just a term he was using that's basically synonymous with a point of interest.
vjek said:So, one character per crafting profession. Check. Just like EQ2. Disappointing, but expected given previous details. I don't see how it's going to turn out any differently than EQ2, but sure, let's try something that's failed before. :)
Please, just avoid the punitive " 1% is intended " mess of Silius' (Salim Grant) so called crafting system from Vanguard. ( really, a social experience in how sadistic a crafting loop can be ) Just avoid that, and I'm sure the crafters will love it.
Vanguard crafting is the game that killed crafting for me, forever. I leveled 3 adventure characters to max and still couldn't max out crafting once in VG, even with all the "right" gear. Thousands of combines per level? Yeah, no thanks. Never again.
Vanguard crafting, the best crafting system I have ever seen in a video game...killed crafting for you?! Because you could not max out crafting. What about everything else about it? I didn't bother with EQ2 but the idea of one character per crafting profession is certainly a mixed bag with distinct pros and cons. As for Vanguard's crafting is it a failed system because not everyone can hit max, or because 99% of people can't hit max (using the Silius quote)? Just curious where you draw the line.
Ziegfried said: ... What about everything else about it? ...
VG crafting was, for me and my guild, punitive from start to finish. Every aspect. You need gear you can't get to complete combines you need to level up. From the word "Go" you had two choices; Exploit early (which most of the max levels I knew did) or suffer the tedium of grinding green combines for weeks on end.
Random events you need to counter? Great. Guaranteed, repeated failure even when you counter everything? Nope. That's just... mean. It was purely sadistic, and made WORSE by directly communicating with Silius about it, to experience first hand him treat paying customers like pieces of dung. Straight up, he had such contempt for the players, it was absurd that he had the job he did. It makes me shake my head with wonder thinking back on it.
I like the idea and concept of crafting gear. That was great. The implmentation of "you need orange or yellow gear to complete a blue combine, but you can't complete even a blue combine without yellow or orange gear, and you can't get the good gear unless you're completing HARDER than blue combines" was the worst design I've ever seen. It was the worst form of poisoned carrot and cattle-prod stick. Everything you tried was punished.
Sure, at max level, everything was peachy, but the journey? I'd rather pull my own fingernails off. Never. Never again.
If Pantheon really is about the Journey? They will avoid making the Journey as punitive as VG crafting was. But only if they want players to, you know, actually get entertained while crafting. Be something they enjoy. Be fun.
Malsirian said:Nice interview! Went great with my morning coffee. If you could put out one of those per day that'd be greeeeaaatt. ;)
Maybe you just need to drink less coffee, Mal. :-)
Really awesome interview guys. February has been a winner month so far, between this interview and what was probably the best Pantheon newsletter ever.
vjek said:Ziegfried said: ... What about everything else about it? ...VG crafting was, for me and my guild, punitive from start to finish. Every aspect. You need gear you can't get to complete combines you need to level up. From the word "Go" you had two choices; Exploit early (which most of the max levels I knew did) or suffer the tedium of grinding green combines for weeks on end.
Random events you need to counter? Great. Guaranteed, repeated failure even when you counter everything? Nope. That's just... mean. It was purely sadistic, and made WORSE by directly communicating with Silius about it, to experience first hand him treat paying customers like pieces of dung. Straight up, he had such contempt for the players, it was absurd that he had the job he did. It makes me shake my head with wonder thinking back on it.
I like the idea and concept of crafting gear. That was great. The implmentation of "you need orange or yellow gear to complete a blue combine, but you can't complete even a blue combine without yellow or orange gear, and you can't get the good gear unless you're completing HARDER than blue combines" was the worst design I've ever seen. It was the worst form of poisoned carrot and cattle-prod stick. Everything you tried was punished.
Sure, at max level, everything was peachy, but the journey? I'd rather pull my own fingernails off. Never. Never again.If Pantheon really is about the Journey? They will avoid making the Journey as punitive as VG crafting was. But only if they want players to, you know, actually get entertained while crafting. Be something they enjoy. Be fun.
I enjoyed Vanguard crafting. It's been years since I played, and I do remember it being involved, but I certainly don't recall it with the enmity that you do.
vjek said:Ziegfried said: ... What about everything else about it? ...VG crafting was, for me and my guild, punitive from start to finish. Every aspect. You need gear you can't get to complete combines you need to level up. From the word "Go" you had two choices; Exploit early (which most of the max levels I knew did) or suffer the tedium of grinding green combines for weeks on end.
Random events you need to counter? Great. Guaranteed, repeated failure even when you counter everything? Nope. That's just... mean. It was purely sadistic, and made WORSE by directly communicating with Silius about it, to experience first hand him treat paying customers like pieces of dung. Straight up, he had such contempt for the players, it was absurd that he had the job he did. It makes me shake my head with wonder thinking back on it.
I like the idea and concept of crafting gear. That was great. The implmentation of "you need orange or yellow gear to complete a blue combine, but you can't complete even a blue combine without yellow or orange gear, and you can't get the good gear unless you're completing HARDER than blue combines" was the worst design I've ever seen. It was the worst form of poisoned carrot and cattle-prod stick. Everything you tried was punished.
Sure, at max level, everything was peachy, but the journey? I'd rather pull my own fingernails off. Never. Never again.If Pantheon really is about the Journey? They will avoid making the Journey as punitive as VG crafting was. But only if they want players to, you know, actually get entertained while crafting. Be something they enjoy. Be fun.
I enjoyed the crafting in both VG and EQ2 immensely. It was fun and engaging. Could you get frustrated at times, sure, but that happens with anything. I much preferred it over say original EQ or WoW crafting. As much as I adore EQ overall as a game, I disliked the crafting. I never understood how a recipe to me was trivial as a craftsman, but you still failed a fair amount of the time comparitively speaking. WoW crafting is a snooze fest. Have all the components to make 500 of an item, just click a button and walk away. BORING! I'd much rather get a crafting system that was enaging and has depth over sticking everything in a box and hit combine. I'm with the others on this, not sure why all the disdain on your part, but to each their own I guess.
Great interview Baz and thanks Corey for taking the time to do it!!
Celandor said:Maybe you just need to drink less coffee, Mal. :-)
Uh - that aint' happening lol =)
Xbachs said:You know what? I'm pissed. This is absolutely not cool. I mean seriously, Corey has a totally badass PRF shirt and I'm sitting here wearing a stupid polo. Where is my badass PRF shirt? So mad...
You probably shouldn't look too closely at Bazgrim's then. =)
As far as crafting systems go, I think overall, Vanguard's was pretty highly regarded. I know I loved it!
One thing I'd like to see added to crafting is the ability to make the same item out of different types and qualities of materials. You could have different types of animal skins and different types of ores, all with ruined, low, medium, high, etc quality to them. All of the ore can make the same sword, or all of the skins make the same backpack, but depending on the type and quality the outcome is different.
I think this is important for situations where you want to make something but you don't have the exact right components. Say there is a certain type of sword. Obviously using a rare, high quality metal like Mithril would be awesome, but for now you have to use low quality bronze. Or say you want to make a backpack that is optimally made with a high quality grizzly bear skin, but right now you only have a ruined fox pelt. I can stilll make the item, it's just not as good. Then as I gain better materials, I can salvage the materials and try to re-build using the better materials.
LOL, what? I always imagined Bazgrim was an old dude. I guess I got that from him playing dwarves, maybe. Anyway, thanks Bazgrim, and thanks Ceythos, for the new information. Let's have a Joppa interview next, please.
EDIT: Also, nice to see that confirmation from Ceythos that Colored Mana is not dead. Sounds like it's going to be implemented the way it was described in that 3/2016 stream, though, rather than the whole Colored Mana Specialization thing.
Vanguard crafting mini-game was awesome. Best to date. All the sub-combines and tedium involved in leveling crafting in VG was pretty rough. Not sure that was needed. I hope Pantheon starts it's crafting development with the Vanguard mini-game and just drastically improves it in terms of more challenge and strategy. I think the overall crafting matrix from VG was ok, but too tedious, I hope Pantheon goes in a different direction there. Sub-combines suck, lets not make us do a bazillion of them to make a backpack. The leveling up process via writs was fine in EQ2 and VG, that didn't bother me, but that mini-game has to be fun and it can't be repetitive or non-challenging.
Vaad said:Mathir, to some degree there is going to be tedium, at what point do you think it would be OK for repetition and when wouldnt it?
Fine with tedium and grinding crafting writs to level. To an extent. But, in terms of leveling, I'm not sure there is another way around it. The way EQ2 and Vanguard did leveling in crafting, I'm fine with. What killed me in those games was the subcombines when making things like backpacks or spell scrolls in EQ2 (where you had to do a ton of steps to get the right quality ink, paper, etc...). I'm even fine with doing all that for a powerful item because it makes sense that it needs subcomponents and you have to learn how to do it. My issue is that there was no option to mass produce trivial items. Sure, the mini-game due to skill level and gear allowed you to zip through trivial component crafting, but I'd rather have a more challenging option of the mini game to mass produce component parts than to keep doing subcombines for hours on end just to make fifty backpacks, especially with a minigame that no longer requires strategy or presents risk due to skill level. That's just tedium at that point. Especially if I have to do a hundred sub combines to create twenty backpacks. Need to be able to mass produce those buckles and iron bits. If the ability to mass produce takes a long time to unlock, I'm fine with that. As long as I can get to it eventually. If the ability to mass produce makes all created items bind on pickup so I can't sell the subcomponents, I'm fine with that, as long as I can still sell the main final product. I loved VG crafting, it was a fun soloable activity that was challenging at times. I loved VG diplomacy for the same reason. The only time I didn't like VG crafting was when I was trying to outfit my 100 man guild with backpacks and other items, it just became way too tedious due to the bazillion and trivial subcombines that seemed to do nothing but take up massive amounts of time.
Haseno said:Just finished watching. Was a good and sincere interview. He mentioned only having one crafting profession for each character. I don't mind this, depending on how deep and expansive each crafting profession is.
That means I am gonna have A LOT of alts...then. :) No matter I plan to spend some years playing Pantheon. :)