Edit: People seem to be getting hung up on the word "epic" - so it might be worthwhile to point out, that the below doesn't have to replace the concept of class-defining "epic" quests. I'm rearranging this post to put the "why" behind the idea up front, and maybe that will help avoid further confusion.
Some of us were talking about Epic/Legendary weapons and some of the pitfalls with the way other games have handled those in the VIP Discord, and we wanted to throw this idea out there for folks to discuss :)
This concept came up because we were talking about having your "epic" be something you worked on for the life of your character, not just a long quest at high levels. However, we didn't want a system where you only ever had one weapon for the entire life of your character and never needed another.
What if....
As a young adventurer, you obtain a "Soulstone" - this could come from a low-level quest, or just be given to you at character creation, or something.
- Soulstones can be attached to weapons, shields, or chest armor pieces. You only ever get one Soulstone, so you have to choose where it goes.
- When you attach a Soulstone to an item, the items stats are overwritten and are now determined by the Soulstone. Soulstone items are more powerful than other items at the same level.
- While attached, Soulstones gain experience and level up alongside you as you progress (assuming you have their equipment piece equipped)
- Each time a Soulstone levels up, you have the ability to choose how it will become stronger in some way. This can range from adjusting stats (more critical hit, more parry/block chance) to actually giving the Soulstone effects - like a poison proc or a stun proc at "milestone" levels.
- The level of the Soulstone is capped by the equipment piece that it's attached to. So for example, that starter sword you got might cap the Soulstone at level 5.
- To lift that cap, you need to obtain a new equipment piece to put the Soulstone in. Higher level/quality equipment has a higher cap for your Soulstone. So, if your Soulstone has capped out in the shield you currently have, transferring it to a higher level shield would allow it to start growing in power again.
- To move a Soulstone to a new item, you have to go through a process that destroys the old item. You might also need to collect special materials to be able to transfer the Soulstone into the new item. However, this also means that you can transfer the Soulstone to a different type of item. For example, maybe it was in your sword before, but you want to put it in your bow this time around. Either way, you lose the old item, and the Soulstone ends up transferred to a new one where it can grow in power again.
- At high levels, your Soulstone might give the equipment piece a unique glow effect depending on the choices you've made as you've leveled that Soulstone up - something to visually distinguish that this is a very powerful piece of equipment.
- As an incentive for progeny, perhaps Soulstones for progeny characters get an additional small bonus of some kind.
So by doing it this way, you get to evolve/customize your "epic" over time, rather than it being just a one-and-done kind of thing. You get to choose what kind of epic you want - whether that's an armor, shield, or weapon piece. And, getting upgrades for that item slot is still a really important part of gameplay. The quest component can still be there as part of the requirements to transfer the Soulstone - so for example, if you wanted to transfer your Soulstone into that raid drop you just got, which would maximize its potential, you might still have to go collect a bunch of things in order to get the alchemical concoction you needed to actually DO the transfer. Likewise, since players only get one Soulstone and have to choose where to use it, raid drops (and crafted items) still matter for more than just advancing your Soulstone item. If you've used it on your armor, you still want those weapon drops to use as-is.
Thoughts? If I missed anything from the Discord discussion we had, I'm sure that the others will jump in and add it. Just to be clear, this is a purely player-sourced idea that we all thought was worth exploring, no devs spilled any beans or anything like that :)
I'm a huge fan of class specific epic-type items, and class specific loot in general. If the Soulstone was flavored for your class, I wouldn't mind that, but at the same time we'd still be missing out on the super unique weapon graphics with class flavorings.
I liked the way Vanguard did epics. They were augmentations that were slotted into the best weapons that you could find, and the weapons would take on the appearance of the epic as well as the stats bonuses and class specific effects. One thing that I think Vanguard could have done better was to allow you to toggle the appearance of your epics instead of requiring you to be stuck with it for life.
I think the Soulstone feature is a great idea in addition to more classical epics, but I wouldn't want to see it as an outright replacement. Class specific epics are just too cool.
Sounds like a neat idea in general but not for an epic.
Nothing about this sounds epic to me. There is no challenge, there is no struggle, you just play and it happens.
You cant make the Soulstone hard to get because then it won't be able to grow over the course of your characters developement. It by design has to be easily attainable at a low level right?
In the long run if everyone has it then it seems kind of pointless to me. Player A has a tricked out chest piece but player B put his on his sword to trick that out. Might add some variation to your characte allowing you to specialize some but regular gear can do that too along with buffs.
Oh and I assume when you say Epic it is in the same vein as the old EQ1 Epics. Something like this would not hold a candle to what those weapons were. An Epic needs to be really difficult to aquire. I mean it's called an Epic for a reason right?
Some more toughts about our discord talk on this
- At high levels, your Soulstone might give the equipment piece a unique glow effect depending on the choices you've made as you've leveled that Soulstone up - something to visually distinguish that this is a very powerful piece of equipment.
If there could be a way for the stone to mirror our "aligment" we get by our choice's in the journey of our char ex. You take all "bad" choice's to get a realy evil lookin shield on your Dire Lord like (with nice stats) and if you are grey you may get a a green knife as you chosen every poison upgrade there is.
And it may give Progency some boost to and make a linage connection to our Char's we create I hope Vr sees this as we thjink this could be a nice ide to avoid a ½ year of intence raid to maybe get all at once, the thing about this is that a middle raider maybe gets he's/her's epic when next exp is coomin and it goes out of date . Hardcore players will get it faster and possibly more potent on the newe thought and still the avarage have something to look farward to and guild may get major part of guild to "tier 2 " stone and then go for gettin guildies to "tier 3 " kinda
Is this concept we like think and come with your thought's
Sabot said:Sounds like a neat idea in general but not for an epic.
Nothing about this sounds epic to me. There is no challenge, there is no struggle, you just play and it happens.
You cant make the Soulstone hard to get because then it won't be able to grow over the course of your characters developement. It by design has to be easily attainable at a low level right?
In the long run if everyone has it then it seems kind of pointless to me. Player A has a tricked out chest piece but player B put his on his sword to trick that out. Might add some variation to your characte allowing you to specialize some but regular gear can do that too along with buffs.
Oh and I assume when you say Epic it is in the same vein as the old EQ1 Epics. Something like this would not hold a candle to what those weapons were. An Epic needs to be really difficult to aquire. I mean it's called an Epic for a reason right?
It started as Legendary but could ev be an Epic depends on what VR has in mind for gear tier's this is an ide to give every one some thing to be proud of and form b y them self and should need a groupe/raid to aguire and the chat we kinda thought that you can get a better "item" in an raid wich inturn could raise the stat compered to a leeser groupe boss item .Could an ide about 1 server only item satisfy your feeling about hard/unique item to be an Epic so only 1 gets it wich is epic and what we talk about "only" legendary ?
I hoped this ide could make more player's dream of some endgame i did not suggest this should be an "Ultimate Item" as i play this kind of game for friends and experience and ofcourse like nice gear but dont realy need the best , but i think there should be some unique stuff that realy good players can get and show of like the 1 server stuff , shuch a player could have one soul legendary AND an Epic maybe ??
My question after reading this idea is how will it be Epic if everyone get's it right from the start? Would that not turn it into something everyone can get and therefor nothing truly special?
Also how will it fit with the idea that things that are tough to get will be easily recognised by other players?
I will not be able to see a weapon (or armor) has a Soulstone equiped, unless it is at high levels where it might emit a special glove.
I do kinda like the idea but perhaps not for Epics, perhaps it could work for a class/race/alignment specific ring, earring, shawl, pet? :)
-sorte.
Liav said:I'm a huge fan of class specific epic-type items, and class specific loot in general. If the Soulstone was flavored for your class, I wouldn't mind that, but at the same time we'd still be missing out on the super unique weapon graphics with class flavorings.
I liked the way Vanguard did epics. They were augmentations that were slotted into the best weaons that you could find, and the weapons would take on the appearance of the epic as well as the stats bonuses and class specific effects. One thing that I think Vanguard could have done better was to allow you to toggle the appearance of your epics instead of requiring you to be stuck with it for life.
I think the Soulstone feature is a great idea in addition to more classical epics, but I wouldn't want to see it as an outright replacement. Class specific epics are just too cool.
To take this sort of a different direction rather than "slotting it into a new weapon". How about an upgrade to your Epic Weapon? One of the things I hated about EQ was how quickly the specs of the Epic Weapons were overshadowed by dropped weapons.
So, let's say you get your initial Epic Weapon at level 30 (just to pick a random level). At some point, maybe level 40, there is a new Epic quest that would upgrade your Epic weapon. Maybe something similar at level 50, 60, etc. This allows the Epic Weapon to remain a unique and class defining weapon, but allows it to keep up with dropped weapons. In addition, this adds new quests to the questing system.
One thing I would definitely like to see with regards to the Epic Weapons quests is that in addition to various group-based battles, that there be steps in the quest that utilize class defining skills. I am going to use a Rogue as an example because that is the class that I am the most familiar with. So, maybe as one step, you have to sneak into a keep or castle and steal something. Maybe another step, you have to break into a home utilizing your lockpick skills and do something. Maybe you just have to sneak in and observe something to progress the quest along. Perhaps an assassination. Keep in mind that I don't necessarily want these sorts of things to replace group-based battles for items/progression of the Eqic Quests, but as an enhancement to them because, at the end of the day, you ARE going for a class defining weapon.
One more thing that was discussed was that it's kinda sad that when you've worked so hard on your epic that, for some, by the time they finally get theirs, the epic is no longer the best weapon.
Overall, I like the idea of a soulstone, but if everyone gets one, it needs to be different somehow.
Also everytime this soulstone hits a set level (5,10,15, etc) perhaps a class specific (or not class specific) mini Soul Quest could be done to advance the Stone. I'd assume not everyone would level at the same rate (time invested and # of fights) and not every fight (mob type/level) would level the stone at the same rate. So in effect, there typically should not be much of a bottleneck doing these mini sould quests, especially if they were class and/or race specific (perhaps same type of quest in different starting cities)
Additionally, this soul stone could also be tied in with the perception system. For those who are not into fighting, the soulstone could also be used to give an advantage in/on some crafting or havesting tool and is levelled up through harvesting and crafting.
Overall, it should not be easy yet attainable with some effort. It won't be for everyone but definitely worth it for those who take the effort to do it.
Durp said:One more thing that was discussed was that it's kinda sad that when you've worked so hard on your epic that, for some, by the time they finally get theirs, the epic is no longer the best weapon.
Overall, I like the idea of a soulstone, but if everyone gets one, it needs to be different somehow.
Also everytime this soulstone hits a set level (5,10,15, etc) perhaps a class specific (or not class specific) mini Soul Quest could be done to advance the Stone. I'd assume not everyone would level at the same rate (time invested and # of fights) and not every fight (mob type/level) would level the stone at the same rate. So in effect, there typically should not be much of a bottleneck doing these mini sould quests, especially if they were class and/or race specific (perhaps same type of quest in different starting cities)
Additionally, this soul stone could also be tied in with the perception system. For those who are not into fighting, the soulstone could also be used to give an advantage in/on some crafting or havesting tool and is levelled up through harvesting and crafting.
Overall, it should not be easy yet attainable with some effort. It won't be for everyone but definitely worth it for those who take the effort to do it.
More of this please great input Durp like where you going with this :)
Durp said:One more thing that was discussed was that it's kinda sad that when you've worked so hard on your epic that, for some, by the time they finally get theirs, the epic is no longer the best weapon.
Overall, I like the idea of a soulstone, but if everyone gets one, it needs to be different somehow.
Also everytime this soulstone hits a set level (5,10,15, etc) perhaps a class specific (or not class specific) mini Soul Quest could be done to advance the Stone. I'd assume not everyone would level at the same rate (time invested and # of fights) and not every fight (mob type/level) would level the stone at the same rate. So in effect, there typically should not be much of a bottleneck doing these mini sould quests, especially if they were class and/or race specific (perhaps same type of quest in different starting cities)
Additionally, this soul stone could also be tied in with the perception system. For those who are not into fighting, the soulstone could also be used to give an advantage in/on some crafting or havesting tool and is levelled up through harvesting and crafting.
Overall, it should not be easy yet attainable with some effort. It won't be for everyone but definitely worth it for those who take the effort to do it.
Yeah. Not a fan of the whole "Soul Stone" idea, at least not for Epic Weapons. The poing of the Epic Weapon has, at least with EQ, been as a "class defining" weapon. If you can get a "stone" and apply it to whatever you want (item-wise), that defeats the whole purpose of a "class defining" object. As an example, let's say that there is this cool chainmail chest piece that you like and apply your Soul Stone to it. That chest piece will be worn by others too (minus the Soul Stone), maybe even other classes.
Or maybe we jusat need to come up with new terms to describe these things.
I like the way Eq did Epics, with an Epicly long and hard quest line, that Eventually resulted with your epic weapon, Epics Actually FELT epic back then, you saw someone with their epic and drooled and you knew how much work they put into getting that..
But in modern games, Epics are not epic at all everyone and their brother has epics up the wazoo, people Delete and Vendor Epics.
Bring back the EPIC part of Epic Weapons / Armour.
Great Idea, but it just doesn't ring of "Epic" to me.
Epic is not something that just happens. At least not the "Epic" kind of quests we used to labor through to attain a very special item.
Epic = great struggle to me and greater reward because of enduring that struggle.
Liav said:I'm a huge fan of class specific epic-type items, and class specific loot in general. If the Soulstone was flavored for your class, I wouldn't mind that, but at the same time we'd still be missing out on the super unique weapon graphics with class flavorings.
I liked the way Vanguard did epics. They were augmentations that were slotted into the best weapons that you could find, and the weapons would take on the appearance of the epic as well as the stats bonuses and class specific effects. One thing that I think Vanguard could have done better was to allow you to toggle the appearance of your epics instead of requiring you to be stuck with it for life.
I think the Soulstone feature is a great idea in addition to more classical epics, but I wouldn't want to see it as an outright replacement. Class specific epics are just too cool.
Class specific quests for class specific items were one of the best ideas in EQ1 and you are correct that Vanguard's approach was quite good as well. What I disliked about the EQ1 approach was that you had no choice, really, about what weapon type you got for an epic. Personally I loved the Shaman Epic 1.0, The Spear of Fate far more than I liked the Epic 2.0 Blesed Spiritstaff of the Heyokah. Visually the spear was just far more interesting that the stunted club that had a lion head on it.
What I would prefer is being able to choose, very early on, that my epic weapon would be a spear or a stave and over time 'build it up', increasing its stats and altering its appearance.
Vandraad said:Liav said:I'm a huge fan of class specific epic-type items, and class specific loot in general. If the Soulstone was flavored for your class, I wouldn't mind that, but at the same time we'd still be missing out on the super unique weapon graphics with class flavorings.
I liked the way Vanguard did epics. They were augmentations that were slotted into the best weapons that you could find, and the weapons would take on the appearance of the epic as well as the stats bonuses and class specific effects. One thing that I think Vanguard could have done better was to allow you to toggle the appearance of your epics instead of requiring you to be stuck with it for life.
I think the Soulstone feature is a great idea in addition to more classical epics, but I wouldn't want to see it as an outright replacement. Class specific epics are just too cool.
Class specific quests for class specific items were one of the best ideas in EQ1 and you are correct that Vanguard's approach was quite good as well. What I disliked about the EQ1 approach was that you had no choice, really, about what weapon type you got for an epic. Personally I loved the Shaman Epic 1.0, The Spear of Fate far more than I liked the Epic 2.0 Blesed Spiritstaff of the Heyokah. Visually the spear was just far more interesting that the stunted club that had a lion head on it.
What I would prefer is being able to choose, very early on, that my epic weapon would be a spear or a stave and over time 'build it up', increasing its stats and altering its appearance.
I also loved the Eq epic quest lines, and i loved my Epic weapon 1.0, i loved the stats on the 2.0 but wasnt a fan of the visuals on some of them. Maybe We could have Epic Style quests ala Eq1, but have an option when upgrading to either Keep the visual of the Epic 1.0 and just upgrade the stats Etc Or just upgrade everything visual and all.
Or as you say Let us choose if we want a club, spear Etc Before you make our final pick. Bring up a box with the different visuals and let us select the visual that we like.
So for example a Rogue has completed his epic quest line and is about to hand it in for his or her Epic weapon, they had the items in and a selection box pops up, with 3 selections in, a Dagger, a made and a short sword all the stats are the same, so you choose which visual you like and Bam you have you new shiny Epic with the visual that you like.
Awesome discussion guys, this is kinda what we were hoping for by posting it here :)
I get why everyone likes class-specific epic quests. I liked them too. But I also get people wanting choices in weapon appearance and not wanting it to be a level-cap-only thing which is where the soulstone idea came from.
I could see doing both side by side (you have soulstone stuff, and you have epics) but if that were the case I'd like to see you be able to put your soulstone in your epic if you wanted to. You wouldn't have to, but it would be a great thing for when the level cap went up and that old epic was no longer the thing you wanted to be carrying around.
Thoughts?
Nephele said:Awesome discussion guys, this is kinda what we were hoping for by posting it here :)
I get why everyone likes class-specific epic quests. I liked them too. But I also get people wanting choices in weapon appearance and not wanting it to be a level-cap-only thing which is where the soulstone idea came from.
I could see doing both side by side (you have soulstone stuff, and you have epics) but if that were the case I'd like to see you be able to put your soulstone in your epic if you wanted to. You wouldn't have to, but it would be a great thing for when the level cap went up and that old epic was no longer the thing you wanted to be carrying around.
Thoughts?
That was shy I specifically talked about upgrade Quests for Epic Weapons.
Great idea Naphele, with the added context provided by Durp.
Each mini-soul quest would be tailored to the required level, the first ones being easier than the later ones. The entire journey since you start your character is the epic quest, tailored to what pleases you. Just need to avoid of those mini-soul quests falling into the same trap of becoming cumbersome (see below).
Just to shed some light on the reasons this was brought up in VIP chat, while EQ1 epic weapons had that "wow" factor, the truth of the matter was that you had no choice into the type of epic weapon you wanted (as a ranger I would have liked an epic bow) nor were you guaranteed any type of success, for many nights the zone you wanted was already taken over by another guild and/or you had 5 other guildmates waiting in line ahead of you and/or some drops were so rare that months of endless raiding nights came and went. And once you finally got your epic, it was just stored in the bank cause some named-mob drop from the next expansion, which you got with a single group, simply outshown it.
As much as I LOVED my EQ epic weapon quest... I hope they don't do epic weapons. Don't get me wrong, I want some form of an epic quest - or even mulitple epic quests or quest lines (coldain rings for example for old EQ players)... but epic weapons, to me, amount to shutting the slot down to new drops once you attain your epic.
The way I preceived this thread at first, it gave me more the idea of a developing animal guide.
But the following posts made it sound like a good addition for growth of the epic.
Then with Epic, there should be a challenge aspect equally as for those who originally acquired it. If and how much levels increase, you could up the challenge and increase the base stats. Then a 'soulstone' for the player to keep working on to keep the epic from getting dusty would give an extra play.
Then an epic should not be a domain for the raiders only, maybe a longer road. It would be nice for everyone to acquire, yet difficult or nasty tedious.
i love epic quests.
This is a part in game you will remember for different reasons.
Soulstones are not really epic (maybe if you have to do several quests during leveling only with these quests the soulstone could be more powerful)
but i am not sure if a soulstone is a very good solution.
Think at situational gear (climatic) or that lvl 20 gear from a quest isn't useless because you will need it at lvl 50.
just some thoughts
Wandidar said:As much as I LOVED my EQ epic weapon quest... I hope they don't do epic weapons. Don't get me wrong, I want some form of an epic quest - or even mulitple epic quests or quest lines (coldain rings for example for old EQ players)... but epic weapons, to me, amount to shutting the slot down to new drops once you attain your epic.
If it's done as Vanguard did it, this wouldn't be the case.
Liav said:Wandidar said:As much as I LOVED my EQ epic weapon quest... I hope they don't do epic weapons. Don't get me wrong, I want some form of an epic quest - or even mulitple epic quests or quest lines (coldain rings for example for old EQ players)... but epic weapons, to me, amount to shutting the slot down to new drops once you attain your epic.
If it's done as Vanguard did it, this wouldn't be the case.
Nor would it if there were "add-on" Epic Quests to upgrade your Epic Weapon.
Kalok said:Liav said:Wandidar said:As much as I LOVED my EQ epic weapon quest... I hope they don't do epic weapons. Don't get me wrong, I want some form of an epic quest - or even mulitple epic quests or quest lines (coldain rings for example for old EQ players)... but epic weapons, to me, amount to shutting the slot down to new drops once you attain your epic.
If it's done as Vanguard did it, this wouldn't be the case.
Nor would it if there were "add-on" Epic Quests to upgrade your Epic Weapon.
I definitely agree, but there's two potential downsides to consider:
1) You'll still have that slot permanently locked down by non-drops, whereas with Vanguard's system you can still upgrade both of your weapons and just move the augmentation to the new weapon. In addition, if given the ability to toggle the appearance of the epic augmentation, this gives you more flexibility as far as weapon appearances go.
2) Epic quests are a massive development burden. The sheer level of detail that goes into epic quests requires a ton of time investment from several different teams. Quest writers, designing new mechanics, adding new mobs, adding triggered events, creating the actual art for the upgrade (assuming the appearance changes), etc. It is very burdensome.
I like your solution, I just think Vanguard's way of doing things is more flexible and practical.
Liav said:Kalok said:Liav said:Wandidar said:As much as I LOVED my EQ epic weapon quest... I hope they don't do epic weapons. Don't get me wrong, I want some form of an epic quest - or even mulitple epic quests or quest lines (coldain rings for example for old EQ players)... but epic weapons, to me, amount to shutting the slot down to new drops once you attain your epic.
If it's done as Vanguard did it, this wouldn't be the case.
I definitely agree, but there's two potential downsides to consider:
1) You'll still have that slot permanently locked down by non-drops, whereas with Vanguard's system you can still upgrade both of your weapons and just move the augmentation to the new weapon. In addition, if given the ability to toggle the appearance of the epic augmentation, this gives you more flexibility as far as weapon appearances go.
2) Epic quests are a massive development burden. The sheer level of detail that goes into epic quests requires a ton of time investment from several different teams. Quest writers, designing new mechanics, adding new mobs, adding triggered events, creating the actual art for the upgrade (assuming the appearance changes), etc. It is very burdensome.
I like your solution, I just think Vanguard's way of doing things is more flexible and practical.
I agree that the quest lines take alot of effort, but isn't that the case for ANY suifficienmtly detailed quest? I don't see it as much of an additional burden on VR as you do. We have no idea how difficult, or easy, it is for VR to script and create quests. However, isn't the point that Lore evolves in the world being a living world?
With that being said, being able tro "merge" your Epic Weapon with another weapon and pass along certain abilities makes it no longer an Epic Weapon. It makes it, a_weapon01 with your Epic's abilities. No different than any other weapon that someone else might loot plus a few additional abilities, much like the reason that I am against using "Soul Stones" for Epic Weapons.