Rubezahl said:In an open world there will have to be some leash, though I hope it is a long one. However, I will also say that it is not realistic to think a mob would run 2 miles away from the door he is guarding to chase someone who threw a rock at him, especially after losing sight of you a mile ago.... His job is to guard the door, and that should be high up on his list of priorities. That said, there is also something realistic about seeing a group of people running for their lives as a griffon and host of other wild animals chase them to zone.
I don't want to remove the feature completely, but would like to see it make some more sense from an immersion point of view. Perhaps there is a certain amount of agro that you have to generate and that determines how far he follows you. Hit him a couple times with the sword and he is gonna run you down. But if you just happen to run by he is more interested in just running you off... I dunno... this has never been a feature that really made or broke the game for me. I will say that it is a feature that when it was removed ... like when I started playing EQ2... I felt it removed a ton of danger from traveling through a zone :p Now you just see people tromp straight through a camp because they aren't scared of pulling them.
This is my opinion on the subject of "trains" as well. I think the aspect of trains in EQ, in that they weren't just that one person or group's problem, actually added something to the game. Did they get abused sometimes? Yes. Were they absolutely ridiculous in some zones at times? Yes. But more often than not they led to a lot of fun, unexpected situations. I got to know lots of players at zonelines in EQ because we were all working to derail the train (or running from it) together.
So, I think the right answer is to have them, but as Rubezahl said, have them make sense from a lore/immersion perspective. However, I'd also be in favor of variable leashes depending on how angry the mobs are at you. If I just shouted at the orc and called his mother a dirty goblin, he'll probably chase me for a little bit before he gives up and goes back to drinking with his buddies. On the other hand, if I just killed his chieftain and stole his tribe's treasure.... he and his friends are probably ALL out for my blood now.
I would remind folks that these forums have a primary purpose...
... to act as a discussion focal point for issues and mechanics in, or considered for, Pantheon.
While I understand people advocating for a given mechanic, it does seem to me that offering a coherent discussion about the merits, or lack therof, of this mechanic is a better way to ensure the DEVs take your case seriously. Indeed, the whole point of these threads is to distill the best ideas about these mechanics from the POV of the many varied, and extensive, gaming backgrounds represented by the supporter base.
Consider reading: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3748/leashing-or-deal-with-it/view/page/1
This is what I intend to do:
OPTION 1: Leashing [E.g. in EQ2 and WoW]
Overview:
Leashing is the mechanic by which mobs act as if they were wearing a leash. This means there is a 'max' distance they can move from their 'anchor' (usually spawn point) before being forced to return to their ancho-point. This may entail an aggro-wipe. It may also entail a 'reset' to the mob (hp/mp as well as aggro reset to initial status). Often the mob is 'immune' to engagement while retreating to their anchor point.
Upsides:
a) Mob placement can be fine tuned within a zone
b) Higher density of mobs can be placed within a zone, with reliable interactions to others
Downsides:
There are a few downsides to leashing mobs.
a) Kiting can be impossible, unless great care is taken to keep the mob within bounds
b) Evading the mob is easy as long as you can get to their max range
OPTION 2: Zone-wide unleashed [current thinking by VR]
Overview:
This is the current thinking of VR. It follows the method employed by EQ1 (and is unlike EQ2 in that respect). It implies that, once a mob is aggroed, it will follow you forever (or until you encounter a zone boundary). Should you zone-out, the mob will have you wiped from the top of it's aggro list, leaving whoever is in 2nd place (or anyone within aggro range) to be the focus of the mobs interest. Spells that include 'memblur' (wiping the mobs memory) or feign-death can also achieve this effect.
Upsides:
a) Players cannot easily evade mobs or ignore content by running through
b) Players can kite, or try other methods to create emergent techniques
Downsides:
a) Mobs can interact with other non-ally faction mobs
b) Trains are possible (whether intentional or otherwise)
c) Potential for griefing (perticularly at zone boundaries)
OPTION 3: Behaviour (and/or Disposition) modified aggro [Offered as my suggestion]
Overview:
This is a suggestion for an 'intelligent semi-leashing' mechanic. Here the mobs follow the priciples of 'leashed aggro' but the result is somewhat modified. Instead of there being a (fixed) length leash we define stats for (i) aggro_dropoff_rate, and (ii) STA(mina) for mobs. Mobs then react in slightly different ways dependent on their type (animal, cunning, human intelligence etc)
Upsides:
a) While mobs have a leash, it has variable range up to zone-wide making choice of target important
b) Evasion of mobs is possible if you outthink them
c) Training/griefing is harder in some circumstances (mob types)
Downsides:
a) Players need to consider mob type if retreat is to be intended
b) faction/racial based training is still possible
c) Feign-death may be adversely impacted dependent on mob intelligence
Conclusions:
I am not keen on leashes (without a rationale) and hate 'warp-back-to-spawn' mechanics. They feel like lazy prgramming. My preferred solution is (potentially) Option 3. It allows some of the upsides of leashed mobs, without (m)any of the downsides. I am not convinced, yet, that it would remove the opportunity for training - but perhaps others may spot ways to fiz this (assuming you think this is even needed. There is an argument that player reputation will keep lesser incidents to a minimum while the more egregious ones can be dealt with by VR CS staff).
Since I have suggested it: I include a few examples of it in use.
Examples: You tag a mob / run past it ....
(i) Bear:
Since it has [AI mode 'defending_nest'], [aggro_dropoff_rate = HIGH]. Though [STA = High] will still only chase a short distance (until 'effective' aggro = 0 based on dropoff rate.)
(ii) Undead Guard:
Since it has [AI mode 'Undead_defender'], [aggro_dropoff_rate = MED to HIGH]. It has [STA = Massive] but will only chase a moderate distance since it is 'defending' a crypt.
(iii) Undead Wanderer:
It has [AI mode 'Undead_wanderer'] so [aggro_dropoff_rate = V.LOW]. It has [STA = Massive] and so will chase you until it runs out of aggro or STA, whichever comes first. Most likely it will lose 'track' of you (out of direct sight WILL reduce aggro temporarily.
(iv) King of Trolls:
Since you killed his son, [AI Mode switches to 'Bloody Revenge Mode'] with [Aggro_Dropoff_rate = V.Low.Indeed]. It has [STA = V.High] so will chase you (with his guards) for a fair disctance until his STA gets low. Others attacking him, may peel off some Guards, but probably not him unless engaged in combat.
When his STA is depleted, he will spawn 1-3 messengers to go run back to camp (while he walks back to regain STA) at which poiint they will spawn a set of 'hunters/trackers' to go take up the chase on the PC in question (and could possibly cross 1 zone boundary, say). At that point he will receive an entry into the 'Troll_Bounty_List' with a monetary value attached.
Every time the player comes in contact with Trolls (or their allied mercenaries) there is a chance (based on size of the Bounty placed) that some 'Bounty_Collectors' will spawn (which may be loyal Trolls or Mercenaries). IF players could determine a way to view the 'Troll_Bounty_List' (would need high Troll faction) they could also try to collect the bounty via PvP (or some kind).
Summary:
Either way... animals would tend to have an 'effective leash' dependent on their [AI_Mode] (Hungry Lion might have V.Low [aggro_dropoff _rate] while one defending its lair would have V.High) and the 'ability' to chase you a certain distance based on their STAmina.
This would take into account that, while Pantheon is to use zones, they WILL be much larger than EQ ones were.
Evoras, debates which smells worse .... Trolls or Gnomes!
Thank you for trying to bring this thread back on topic and in line with development guidelines, Evoras, it is very much appreciated, my friend.
This thread has been cleaned up and has run its course, it is a duplicate also, we have many threads on Trains, Training, How to punish people who Train etc. so I will suggest that you search for one of them and join in if you have something constructive and mature to add to the topic, otherwise, please just walk away.
We do not tolerate personal attacks or arguments on these development forums, they are a tool for us to help build the game, not a place to call each other out and argue opinions, it just wastes everyone's time, yours writing them, everyone else reading it and mine removing it, so please be respectful of these forums in future and avoid any drama.
Feel free to join my CM thread on this exact topic: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3748/leashing-or-deal-with-it/
For future disputes, please take them to PM's and be mature and respectful about it or risk action being taken against your account.