Demostorm said:BeaverBiscuit said:Liav said:Well, I didn't play the other 3 MMOs in existence where trains were a thing, I guess. I'll concede that.
I'm still extremely skeptical that community enforcement will be enough to deter people from doing these things. Enforcement on VR's part will be essential, but that can be a daunting task. What do you do when an entire guild trains a zone? Do you single out an individual player and suspend them as a martyr? Do you go after the entire guild, which will certainly affect people who weren't responsible?
Your average guild is going to be pretty self-sufficient. You're not dependent on the other thousand(s) of players on your server to succeed. A lot of the incentive to behave just isn't there. I guess we'll see either way, but I don't see it being remotely easy for VR to keep people from exploiting it excessively.
I don't blame you for not trusting VR on a few things they promise. I for one don't trust them at all on their supposed amazing strategems for removing multiboxxing/PL/trade problems.
If they did do it the way brad says he will, though, with a close community, than it won't just be your guild you depend on, like in most mmos.
They are not going to remove multi boxing. .they said they will allow it.. it will just be extremly difficult to do.. You are thinking of botting, which they will not allow.
And in so doing, they will remove multiboxxing problems. This is a theory I have stated I don't trust. My apologies for not being clearer with my example I used to diffuse any perceived claims that Liav is alone in being skeptical of some things VR proposes.
I thank you for trying to educate me, though! It's always good to keep everyone up to date=)
Perhaps, perhaps, I have been swayed a little bit in favor of training. EQ TLPs are just truly terrible in a lot of ways and it's difficult for me to shake myself out of seeing things through that lens.
I look forward to seeing it as well as hearing what VR plans to do against serial abusers of it.
I truly hope they do have trains. I want a game that is unpredictable, where mobs are not just marching on a defined path but can come from any direction, in any quantity, at any time. Some that may chase you for a while, some that will case you to the ends of the earth, some that will scatter and run from you, some that will summon you, root you, snare you. And anything more that they can think of.
Yes I expect some will abuse it... so be it, play a monk if that bothers you or your worried about it, then you can just FD when they train you.
IF VR could find other ways to stop people abusing it I would be open to it (maybe FD should only temporary wipe agro?) But do not KILL the world for everybody because a few butt heads don't play nice.
Honestly, with players being able to so easily record gameplay nowadays, we can easily catch people in the act and be able to show undeniable proof to the powers that be. Training is the last thing I am worried about in Pantheon. I think there should be a tiered approach ... warn people, suspend them (3 days), suspend them longer (7 days), suspend them longer (30 days, no refund either so basically $15), then possibly ban them. If someone exhibits good behavior for 6 months they can go backwards one interval on where they stand on the punishment scale. This is all on top of community enforcement which could be a pain in the ass itself if the majority of the game is community driven. The difficult part is "discretion." You don't want to punish people for accidental trains so accusations should definitely be investigated, and there should be undeniable proof that a player is guilty of griefing before handing out suspensions. Maybe the GM's are going to be like referees in the NFL looking through the replay booth (among other things such as chat logs, report history, etc) to make their decisions.
An idea to mitigate the abuse of it might be to have mobs have a short period of being confused when they "lose" the one they are chasing (be it via FD or gating or Fade or zoning). They could even say things like "what happen to him/her" or "where'd it go?" with animation to go along with it. The period would be short, 5 or 10 seconds at most. Whatever tests out as giving people some time to leave the area if they are paying attention but not so long as to remove all risk. They then turn around and head back at a normal pace and anyone in their agro range is free game.
JimDavis said:I'm just wondering with an open world design and no zoning, will there be massive npc agro trains?
Rember the days of EQ and camping close to zone-in just in case you created a train or was run over by one...:)
I remember always keeping an eye on chat in hopes a warning of TRAIN to zone would be given before the delivery of the packages.
I remember bards would gather every npc in a zone and kite them til they all died.
I remember zoning in and dying to an freshly delivered train of mobs.
I remember guild runs for raid quest drops where we trained npcs back to the raid for an AOE party to increase the chances of getting quests drops.
So I must ask, will we have mob agro trains in any form or fashion in Pantheon?
i did not read any of the post including OP , but yes
All my favorite zones in Everquest were the ones with high train risks. Like Castle Mistmoore and Karnor's Castle. I absolutley loved them. It could change what you were focusing on in an instant. From Exp. grinding/Dungeon crawling to Stand and fight in the face of chaos/Run like crazy to the zone. Sometimes you died right away, sometimes you managed to kill some before dying and sometimes you survived! Which was epic :)
In later games I remember seeing a mob walk by and trying to pull it and nothing would agro it. Hitting it, kicking it, even insulting it's mother, nothing. It had been following someone and was now on it's was back.
What a bore leashed mobs are.
-sorte.
In EQ1, mobs wouldn't chase you forever if you were fast enough. For example, if you go into Frontier Mountains, agro a mob, and run all the way to the south end of the zone (with Spirit of Wolf on), the mob will eventually give up chasing you and go back to its normal pathing. But it didn't lose agro on you, so if you got close enough to it again it would give chase again. And this is where it becomes fun, because if you did lose it and still had agro, it would pass agro on to anything it passed while it was roaming around. And they would pass agro on to anything they passed while roaming along. Eventually if you stayed long enough on the south side of the map random mobs would start charging you out of nowhere as they got close enough to decide to engage. Or if you decided to go back to the north side after a while you'd end up getting attacked by gangs of mobs.
Just wanted to bring this up as something else that can happen in EQ related to trains.
I can tell thaat we're getting closer to launch. The people who want this to be an easy-mode game just like all of the modern ones are starting to come out of the woodwork.
Trains were a part of the unpredictibility of the game. Trains were AWESOME. People who griefed with trains quickly developed a reputation and were shunned. Those of us who are sick of the modern genere of MMOs don't want a "safe" and "predictable" game. We want a scary world where we have no idea what is coming next. That's what EQ was. Especially early-on before everything that was everything had been figured out. We're hoping that it is what Pantheon will be. If it turns out to just be a "prettier WoW", there are going to be alot of disappointed people.
kelenin said:In EQ1, mobs wouldn't chase you forever if you were fast enough. For example, if you go into Frontier Mountains, agro a mob, and run all the way to the south end of the zone (with Spirit of Wolf on), the mob will eventually give up chasing you and go back to its normal pathing. But it didn't lose agro on you, so if you got close enough to it again it would give chase again. And this is where it becomes fun, because if you did lose it and still had agro, it would pass agro on to anything it passed while it was roaming around. And they would pass agro on to anything they passed while roaming along. Eventually if you stayed long enough on the south side of the map random mobs would start charging you out of nowhere as they got close enough to decide to engage. Or if you decided to go back to the north side after a while you'd end up getting attacked by gangs of mobs.
Just wanted to bring this up as something else that can happen in EQ related to trains.
I loved this mechanic. Just when you thoiught you were "safe", boom, pout of nowhere you'd get attacked from the mob that you still had aggro to.
Liav said:Kalok said:I can tell thaat we're getting closer to launch. The people who want this to be an easy-mode game just like all of the modern ones are starting to come out of the woodwork.
Those of us who are sick of the modern genere of MMOs don't want a "safe" and "predictable" game. If it turns out to just be a "prettier WoW", there are going to be alot of disappointed people.
I can tell that we're getting closer to launch. The people who think they were hardcore in 1999 are starting to come out of the woodwork.
Those of us who are sick of hearing about how 1999 EQ is literally the only decent MMO in existence don't want a "safe" and "predictable" game, either (I would recommend look up the definition of "strawman"). If it turns out to just be a "prettier EQ", there are going to be a lot of disappointed people.
**** flinging is fun, let's do it again some time senpai.
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So Liav, what your refering to is like the claim that the only reason people like a mechanic is becouse it was in EQ? Or that people claim EQ was "literally the only decent MMO in existence"
And i for one generally ignore your ranting for easy mode becouse it's "not nice" to call you out on it, and I'm not real good at staying pc when I call somebody out and generally get myself in trouble... but sometimes i just gotta do it. Not all of us want well behaved mobs all lined up in a row waiting fo us to decide whitch one dies first and then waiting there turn.
You CONSTANTLY advocate for easy mode and well to be honest, eather you or I are going to be very disappointed with Pantheon. I think you backed the wrong game for you Dude... you should try World of Warcraft, it has everything your looking for and has already launched.
Zorkon said:Liav said:Kalok said:I can tell thaat we're getting closer to launch. The people who want this to be an easy-mode game just like all of the modern ones are starting to come out of the woodwork.
Those of us who are sick of the modern genere of MMOs don't want a "safe" and "predictable" game. If it turns out to just be a "prettier WoW", there are going to be alot of disappointed people.
I can tell that we're getting closer to launch. The people who think they were hardcore in 1999 are starting to come out of the woodwork.
Those of us who are sick of hearing about how 1999 EQ is literally the only decent MMO in existence don't want a "safe" and "predictable" game, either (I would recommend look up the definition of "strawman"). If it turns out to just be a "prettier EQ", there are going to be a lot of disappointed people.
**** flinging is fun, let's do it again some time senpai.
noun: strawman
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So Liav, what your refering to is like the claim that the only reason people like a mechanic is becouse it was in EQ? Or that people claim EQ was "literally the only decent MMO in existence"
And i for one generally ignore your ranting for easy mode becouse it's "not nice" to call you out on it, and I'm not real good at staying pc when I call somebody out and generally get myself in trouble... but sometimes i just gotta do it. Not all of us want well behaved mobs all lined up in a row waiting fo us to decide whitch one dies first and then waiting there turn.
You CONSTANTLY advocate for easy mode and well to be honest, eather you or I are going to be very disappointed with Pantheon. I think you backed the wrong game for you Dude... you should try World of Warcraft, it has everything your looking for and has already launched.
I'm with yuou on this. He seems to want this to be WoW with prettier graphics. While I don't think that this is going to be 1999 EQ with prettier graphics, I think it's going to be a hell of alot closer to that than the WoW-esque world that he wants it to be.
As others have said, the short answer is yes. But there's already been tons of discussion on this here:
and here:
I suggest you join those conversations if you're interested :)
I just cant stand the Leashing mechanic of todays games it feels too restricted and artificial. I liked the EQ way more. But i could life with a more realistic aggro system like if you manage to hide somwhere from the train they wont see you. As long as noone saw your hiding location. Or smells you or heard you or senses you :) .
Some of the assertions I have seen toward Liav are extremely off-base. He has almost 2,000 posts on here and if there has been one thing I have consistently seen out of him, it's the desire for a challenging game that rewards good players. Having reservations over a training mechanic (or anything that can be used as a tool to grief others, or fall under "degenerate gameplay") hardly classifies as someone wanting "easy mode." The single most annoying thing I have seen on this forum is when a disagreement over an EQ mechanic pops up, the EQ zealotry fanatics jump out the woodwork and tell the "outsiders" they are backing the wrong game.
If you want something from any game outside of EQ, you want WoW. If you didn't like something about EQ, it's because you aren't hardcore enough. It's like calling the NFL "soft" for actually making an effort to preserve player health and prevent future concussion induced diseases. "Back in my day, you could piledrive a QB right on their head. These new-age punks think they know what's it like to be tough ... hell, I used to walk to school ... 5 miles ... UP HILL BOTH WAYS, barefoot! That's how you put some hair on your chest ... school busses for kids ... what is the world coming to? Bunch of entitled instant gratification brats, I tell ya!"
In an open world there will have to be some leash, though I hope it is a long one. However, I will also say that it is not realistic to think a mob would run 2 miles away from the door he is guarding to chase someone who threw a rock at him, especially after losing sight of you a mile ago.... His job is to guard the door, and that should be high up on his list of priorities. That said, there is also something realistic about seeing a group of people running for their lives as a griffon and host of other wild animals chase them to zone.
I don't want to remove the feature completely, but would like to see it make some more sense from an immersion point of view. Perhaps there is a certain amount of agro that you have to generate and that determines how far he follows you. Hit him a couple times with the sword and he is gonna run you down. But if you just happen to run by he is more interested in just running you off... I dunno... this has never been a feature that really made or broke the game for me. I will say that it is a feature that when it was removed ... like when I started playing EQ2... I felt it removed a ton of danger from traveling through a zone :p Now you just see people tromp straight through a camp because they aren't scared of pulling them.
oneADseven said:Some of the assertions I have seen toward Liav are extremely off-base. He has almost 2,000 posts on here and if there has been one thing I have consistently seen out of him, it's the desire for a challenging game that rewards good players. Having reservations over a training mechanic (or anything that can be used as a tool to grief others, or fall under "degenerate gameplay") hardly classifies as someone wanting "easy mode." The single most annoying thing I have seen on this forum is when a disagreement over an EQ mechanic pops up, the EQ zealotry fanatics jump out the woodwork and tell the "outsiders" they are backing the wrong game.
If you want something from any game outside of EQ, you want WoW. If you didn't like something about EQ, it's because you aren't hardcore enough. It's like calling the NFL "soft" for actually making an effort to preserve player health and prevent future concussion induced diseases. "Back in my day, you could piledrive a QB right on their head. These new-age punks think they know what's it like to be tough ... hell, I used to walk to school ... 5 miles ... UP HILL BOTH WAYS, barefoot! That's how you put some hair on your chest ... school busses for kids ... what is the world coming to? Bunch of entitled instant gratification brats, I tell ya!"
The QUANTITY of one's posts doesn't mean that the QUALITY is there. Every post that I have seen him make, including on threads that I have started or commented on, he wants a game that is like WoW with prettier graphics. He wants everything "easy mode". He hates all of the mechanics of EQ; from the trains to the meaningful death to the meaaningful travel and more. Any time someome mentions anything that has to do with the way that things were in EQ, he gets all up in arms about how it all sucked and he is hoping that it is not reproduced in Pantheon. He, literally, has nothing good to say about EQ and yet raves about the features that all of the "easy mode" games like WoW have.
Contrary to his believe there are a LARGE contingent of people that don't want to be spoon-fed their MMOs. That's EXACTLY why we are looking forward to Pantheon; because the modern generation of MMOs suck. Period. While we do not expect them to re-create a "prettier" version of EQ, we are all hoping that Pantheon is MUCH closer to it than not in terms of mechanics and game-play. If it's not, I don't believe that it will fare as well as we are all hoping that it does, because there will be nothing to differentiate it from the rest of the crowded space of MMOs that already exist.
Rubezahl said:In an open world there will have to be some leash, though I hope it is a long one. However, I will also say that it is not realistic to think a mob would run 2 miles away from the door he is guarding to chase someone who threw a rock at him, especially after losing sight of you a mile ago.... His job is to guard the door, and that should be high up on his list of priorities. That said, there is also something realistic about seeing a group of people running for their lives as a griffon and host of other wild animals chase them to zone.
I don't want to remove the feature completely, but would like to see it make some more sense from an immersion point of view. Perhaps there is a certain amount of agro that you have to generate and that determines how far he follows you. Hit him a couple times with the sword and he is gonna run you down. But if you just happen to run by he is more interested in just running you off... I dunno... this has never been a feature that really made or broke the game for me. I will say that it is a feature that when it was removed ... like when I started playing EQ2... I felt it removed a ton of danger from traveling through a zone :p Now you just see people tromp straight through a camp because they aren't scared of pulling them.
I am not so sure that the world is actually "open" per-se. What makes me believe that is the loading screens. As an example, in the "technical" stream, the presenter accidentally zones when they are all ported into the cave by accidentally heading the wrong direction. Of course, that could very wwell change by the time the game goes live.
oneADseven said:Some of the assertions I have seen toward Liav are extremely off-base. He has almost 2,000 posts on here and if there has been one thing I have consistently seen out of him, it's the desire for a challenging game that rewards good players. Having reservations over a training mechanic (or anything that can be used as a tool to grief others, or fall under "degenerate gameplay") hardly classifies as someone wanting "easy mode." The single most annoying thing I have seen on this forum is when a disagreement over an EQ mechanic pops up, the EQ zealotry fanatics jump out the woodwork and tell the "outsiders" they are backing the wrong game.
If you want something from any game outside of EQ, you want WoW. If you didn't like something about EQ, it's because you aren't hardcore enough. It's like calling the NFL "soft" for actually making an effort to preserve player health and prevent future concussion induced diseases. "Back in my day, you could piledrive a QB right on their head. These new-age punks think they know what's it like to be tough ... hell, I used to walk to school ... 5 miles ... UP HILL BOTH WAYS, barefoot! That's how you put some hair on your chest ... school busses for kids ... what is the world coming to? Bunch of entitled instant gratification brats, I tell ya!"
Yeah, I think anyone that goes into this game thinking that if it does (or does not) have X feature they are not going to like it... is going to be disappointed at some point and quit. It's a new game. I think it is great that they are focusing on the core tenants that made massively multiplayer games exciting for me. But it is going to have new features, new rulesets, and new generations. As much as I loved EQ, I do not want to play an EQ with better graphics. I want to play this new game that they are making. The core values are there, but the mechanics and the way they apply are going to be a new experience. I think people often forget one of the big reasons that EQ was so popular. Everyone was playing because it was pretty much the only show in town. Ultima was isometric and DAoC was pvp oriented. Anyone that wanted 3D party based pve style D&D... was playing EQ. Now with all the features and IP's... it is hard for the consumer to stay focused on one product for long. People say WoW is successful because of the easy button they created... but I disagree. WoW is successful because they expanded their game into so many markets that there is something for literally everyone to enjoy doing. This combined with the fact that you can run it on a computer from 2004 pretty much on max settings means that it is available to pretty much anyone. Sure, the easy button helps you to progress your character and develop a bit of connection to your main... but... Boy, this conversation has traveled a bit... I typed this all while running away from a train. Choo! Choo!
Kalok said:oneADseven said:Some of the assertions I have seen toward Liav are extremely off-base. He has almost 2,000 posts on here and if there has been one thing I have consistently seen out of him, it's the desire for a challenging game that rewards good players. Having reservations over a training mechanic (or anything that can be used as a tool to grief others, or fall under "degenerate gameplay") hardly classifies as someone wanting "easy mode." The single most annoying thing I have seen on this forum is when a disagreement over an EQ mechanic pops up, the EQ zealotry fanatics jump out the woodwork and tell the "outsiders" they are backing the wrong game.
If you want something from any game outside of EQ, you want WoW. If you didn't like something about EQ, it's because you aren't hardcore enough. It's like calling the NFL "soft" for actually making an effort to preserve player health and prevent future concussion induced diseases. "Back in my day, you could piledrive a QB right on their head. These new-age punks think they know what's it like to be tough ... hell, I used to walk to school ... 5 miles ... UP HILL BOTH WAYS, barefoot! That's how you put some hair on your chest ... school busses for kids ... what is the world coming to? Bunch of entitled instant gratification brats, I tell ya!"
The QUANTITY of one's posts doesn't mean that the QUALITY is there. Every post that I have seen him make, including on threads that I have started or commented on, he wants a game that is like WoW with prettier graphics. He wants everything "easy mode". He hates all of the mechanics of EQ; from the trains to the meaningful death to the meaaningful travel and more. Any time someome mentions anything that has to do with the way that things were in EQ, he gets all up in arms about how it all sucked and he is hoping that it is not reproduced in Pantheon. He, literally, has nothing good to say about EQ and yet raves about the features that all of the "easy mode" games like WoW have.
Contrary to his believe there are a LARGE contingent of people that don't want to be spoon-fed their MMOs. That's EXACTLY why we are looking forward to Pantheon; because the modern generation of MMOs suck. Period. While we do not expect them to re-create a "prettier" version of EQ, we are all hoping that Pantheon is MUCH closer to it than not in terms of mechanics and game-play. If it's not, I don't believe that it will fare as well as we are all hoping that it does, because there will be nothing to differentiate it from the rest of the crowded space of MMOs that already exist.
I understand that "quantity" doesen't mean quality. I wasn't talking about quality. If you read the post there is a connection there ... I was pointing out that he has a high quantity of posts, and that there has been consistency with wanting a challenging game. I think it's really funny that you mention how he rants about all things EQ and promotes all things WoW. I'm almost positive that he is, and has been playing EQ for a long time. It's also my understanding that he has never played WoW. Could you please provide examples where he opposed meaningful death or travel? I have had semi-regular conversations with Liav since he upgraded to VIP and it seems like me and you are talking about two very different people.
The only reason I even chimed in here is because I have seen the same thing happen to me. I have shared input/feedback that would run contradictive to something specific in EQ and then out of nowhere people are sending me PM's telling me that my ideals are for EZ-Mode WoW games and that I don't belong in this community. I have had people tell me that "XP Chains are just a form of hand-holding" which is 100% incorrect. It just seems like when someone shares a perspective from any game outside of EQ, it's thrown into the fire for critical dissemination. I guess my point is this ... not everything needs to be one extreme or the other. Someone can like a WoW mechanic without being a WoW fanboi. Someone can dislike an EQ mechanic without being a WoW fanboi.
Nobody should be telling anybody that Pantheon isn't a game for them. Let people draw their own conclusions. If someone has nearly 2k posts, I think it's fair to say that they have done their homework. Unless that person is literally an insane masochist that enjoys spending some of their free time to talk about a game they would hate, how would it even make sense? No person in this community should ever say, with any kind of authority, that another person doesen't belong here ... especially when it boils down to their gaming idealogy. The community doesen't need to be fractured into "for or against anything EQ-related" factions. Pantheon is a new game ... those who were around for EQ should feel at home because it will be a spiritual successor in many ways ... but there is no need to install security measures to try and scare away "intruders."
Never in any of my posts have I ever said that I want Pantheon to be an easy game. I've nitpicked a few specific mechanics, and I have strongly suggested that Pantheon should have greater mechanical complexity than EQ, especially as far as fight mechanics go.
If you're interpreting my posts as wanting this to be an easy game, you're just wrong. There's no ambiguity about it, you're simply seeing what you want to see. The fact that I don't agree with your extremely narrow view of what Pantheon should be does not mean that I want this to be an "easy" game. What's more important is I actually changed my mind in this thread, yet you're conveniently ignoring the fact that I'm actually on board with training now, although I'm still a little skeptical about its abusability.
If you still think I want this to be an "easy" game, you're just disturbingly off base. If you can't separate fact from fiction, you'd do well to not criticize posts on the basis of quality.
I'm all for trains it defintely adds another dimension to traveling, than the mob leashing back after a bit mechanic. However, I do feel that you need some safe areas to run to, like guard camps, in open zones, especially if there isn't going to be traditional zone lines to lose aggro. Mobs following you indefitely could be a bit much.