I'm just wondering with an open world design and no zoning, will there be massive npc agro trains?
Rember the days of EQ and camping close to zone-in just in case you created a train or was run over by one...:)
I remember always keeping an eye on chat in hopes a warning of TRAIN to zone would be given before the delivery of the packages.
I remember bards would gather every npc in a zone and kite them til they all died.
I remember zoning in and dying to an freshly delivered train of mobs.
I remember guild runs for raid quest drops where we trained npcs back to the raid for an AOE party to increase the chances of getting quests drops.
So I must ask, will we have mob agro trains in any form or fashion in Pantheon?
I agree with DragonFist on this one, and would like to add that it breaks routine on top of making things hard; while efficient, camping is too repetitive and players get too comfortable after repeating the same process for several hours. Trains are entirely unpredictable, they punish getting comfortable while surrounded by enemies, and they're great reminders that you aren't just playing in a bubble, you're playing an MMO with other groups not too far away from you.
I personally think the pros outweigh the cons, but I haven't played enough EQ to experience all of its cons, either.
Perhaps mobs should stop chasing after some minutes of not hitting its target, so that a single bard can't pull all the npcs in a zone? It should also be noted that the zones in Pantheon are going to be much larger.
Trains just plain make sense. You run away, mobs follow you. Run past more, they follow you too. I think in Pantheon some may follow you forever (to the zone line) while others may not. AND - on their way back, if you are in their path home.... they should attack you too, instead of ignoring that you exist.
While it is true that this is a mechanic that can be used to grief - that wasn't the norm. The great vast majority of trains I experienced had people spamming train to zone messages, and people who trained other people on purpose made negative names for themselves and found it harder to get groups, etc...
There were some pretty wicked trains in FFXI as well if I recall correctly. Personally I think trains belong in an MMO. I agree that they can be exploited and used as a tool for griefing but as long as people are investigated and punished accordingly for abusing the mechanic, I prefer to have them in the game. Removing them is just one of those things that feels like an ultra rail ... reputation is important, let the community police what they can and have GM's deal with the rest. Oh, and if someone reports a player for griefing and that player ultimately ends up getting punished for it, let the reporting player know that "A player you recently reported was investigated, and it has been confirmed that they were guilty of griefing/cheating/hacking, etc. Thanks for the assist!" It doesen't give away any personal information or tell you what the punishment was but it's always really nice to see that problematic players are being dealt with.
What game other than EQ had the same mechanic? You say "the genre" but even DAoC mobs would leash, and that was 2001.
Oh wait, I forgot, 1999 EQ where tank and spank/auto attack was applicable to 99% of content was when the genre was "challenging".
Edit: FFXI apparently.
Exploitable mechanics are the lifeblood of a self policing community.
A self policing community is, imo, a big part of a tight nit community.
I'm not saying put in as many exploitable mechanics in the game as you can. I am saying if a mechanic is immersive, realistic, fun, challenging etc. (like trains 'can' be) then trains might at least be safely considered despite the downside of being exploitable.
Well, I didn't play the other 3 MMOs in existence where trains were a thing, I guess. I'll concede that.
I'm still extremely skeptical that community enforcement will be enough to deter people from doing these things. Enforcement on VR's part will be essential, but that can be a daunting task. What do you do when an entire guild trains a zone? Do you single out an individual player and suspend them as a martyr? Do you go after the entire guild, which will certainly affect people who weren't responsible?
Your average guild is going to be pretty self-sufficient. You're not dependent on the other thousand(s) of players on your server to succeed. A lot of the incentive to behave just isn't there. I guess we'll see either way, but I don't see it being remotely easy for VR to keep people from exploiting it excessively.
JimDavis said: ... So I must ask, will we have mob agro trains in any form or fashion in Pantheon?
If the videos to date are any indication, yes. They've demonstrated trains several times, including a train wiping the group.
As has been mentioned in this thread and hundreds of others, there are vastly superior ways to add challenge to the game, but this is a mechanic they seem intent on keeping from the bad ol' days.
Oh, and yes, Monks FD'ing to drop 1, 10 or more mobs on your group has also been shown to be possible. So if you're looking to make some trains for yourself and wiping out other groups but not dying, playing a Monk is currently ideal for that.
Liav said:Well, I didn't play the other 3 MMOs in existence where trains were a thing, I guess. I'll concede that.
I'm still extremely skeptical that community enforcement will be enough to deter people from doing these things. Enforcement on VR's part will be essential, but that can be a daunting task. What do you do when an entire guild trains a zone? Do you single out an individual player and suspend them as a martyr? Do you go after the entire guild, which will certainly affect people who weren't responsible?
Your average guild is going to be pretty self-sufficient. You're not dependent on the other thousand(s) of players on your server to succeed. A lot of the incentive to behave just isn't there. I guess we'll see either way, but I don't see it being remotely easy for VR to keep people from exploiting it excessively.
I don't blame you for not trusting VR on a few things they promise. I for one don't trust them at all on their supposed amazing strategems for removing multiboxxing/PL/trade problems.
If they did do it the way brad says he will, though, with a close community, than it won't just be your guild you depend on, like in most mmos.
The only rule for MMO's these days is (EQ1 TLP included): If it can be done, it will be done. Typically, as often as possible.
If training is in the game, everyone who can use it will use. This very moment, in EQ1, if a large guild wants a camp or the entire zone, they train everyone in the entire zone until everyone leaves. It's standard operating procedure.
You can't ban players for playing the game the way it's intended. Training is intended.
vjek said:The only rule for MMO's these days is (EQ1 TLP included): If it can be done, it will be done. Typically, as often as possible.
If training is in the game, everyone who can use it will use. This very moment, in EQ1, if a large guild wants a camp or the entire zone, they train everyone in the entire zone until everyone leaves. It's standard operating procedure.
You can't ban players for playing the game the way it's intended. Training is intended.
EQ1 has long since lost any and all sense of community, even on the progression servers.
I believe one of the goals of Pantheon is to bring that community feeling back from the grave.
You can definitely ban people for using mechanics in an unintended way, especially if they do it repeatedly after being warned. People can plea their case all they want but VR makes the rules and if they say intentional training isn't allowed (pretty sure I have seen exactly that, quoted) then it isn't allowed. My understanding is that it will be okay on PVP servers but not on PVE servers. Hopefully monks get some sort of balance check on PVP servers to prevent total exploitation of the mechanic.
EQ TLP is basically the distilled essence of EQ's worst aspects, a bunch of people willing to take advantage of those aspects, and a side dish of a critical lack of customer service to actually address issues when they come up. As a result, it's basically the wild west.
Pantheon could very well be just like that without enforcement on the part of the team. Even so, I'm not going to start going ham saying that it's impossible for VR to do it. For now I'll just trust them.
BeaverBiscuit said:Liav said:Well, I didn't play the other 3 MMOs in existence where trains were a thing, I guess. I'll concede that.
I'm still extremely skeptical that community enforcement will be enough to deter people from doing these things. Enforcement on VR's part will be essential, but that can be a daunting task. What do you do when an entire guild trains a zone? Do you single out an individual player and suspend them as a martyr? Do you go after the entire guild, which will certainly affect people who weren't responsible?
Your average guild is going to be pretty self-sufficient. You're not dependent on the other thousand(s) of players on your server to succeed. A lot of the incentive to behave just isn't there. I guess we'll see either way, but I don't see it being remotely easy for VR to keep people from exploiting it excessively.
I don't blame you for not trusting VR on a few things they promise. I for one don't trust them at all on their supposed amazing strategems for removing multiboxxing/PL/trade problems.
If they did do it the way brad says he will, though, with a close community, than it won't just be your guild you depend on, like in most mmos.
They are not going to remove multi boxing. .they said they will allow it.. it will just be extremly difficult to do.. You are thinking of botting, which they will not allow.
I'm just not interested in games in which mobs chase a guy for a while and then, not only give up but run at max speed right back to their spawn points ignoring any and all players along the way, to the point of being unattackable by other players in some cases.
It is just one factor amongst many that have made most games bland at best. The basic premise, for me, is that trying to remove all negative aspects of game play results in a world in which nothing is really all that important and has very little risk as a world. Most games today, I can move around, even in areas well above my level and as long as I don't go and bonk some world boss on the head or step into a carefully placed group of mobs, I can explore without risk. Even more so if the area has players hunting in it. It has its benefits. But it feels like a game board with spawn points.
Walking along in a zone and having a train run past you in a game where they can agro others means that you have to act -- on the fly. Run, defend yourself, jump in and help the guy they're chasing, whatever it is. But it has life. One has to stay on one's toes.
But I do understand that not everyone likes it. There's a reason that other games have abandoned it as a mechanic. I think that in hindsight, it was a mistake. Just like leaning towards almost all solo content was a mistake. Something that I would have supported back in the day. But playing games that addressed these issues has dissuaded me from that view.