Maybe not, but additional info could be helpfull.. like a Quest you are working on, tradeskills (in game things) and even playtime windows could add to faster group forming.
Then using VOIP can also be a distraction, as mentioned with "please add a push to talk option, I don't want to hear headbanging", or the girl with the voice of an angel that talks like a fish wife (had that once open her mouth just when I was pulling; almost died, lol)
There will be multiple systems -- too early to break them down. The matchmaking I thought was important enough to bring up now. Rewarding people for mentoring also worth mentioning now. Of course there will be an LFG tool, and much more than that -- a Looking for Friends tool, or, really, set of tools. A suite a completely optional tools and mechanics that help people find real friends, help them group with those friends, help *keep* those friends together in a group, etc. The Caravan System ties into this -- offline travel within reason will be important.
I think the key points, not in any particular order and limited to those occurring to my tired brain right now, are:
1. Lots of systems and tools, totally optional, there to be used by people who are interested in finding other people also interested, bringing them together, and in a way that really matters and that lasts (e.g. not about the session, or that particular evening, but about forging true relationships).
2. Taking a proactive stance unlike EQ which just threw you to the wolves so to speak. But also most certainly not some of the more 'modern' systems that just bring people together to do an instance and then, afterwards, those people spread about by the wind, no reason to speak during the instance, nor afterwards... no reason to really even talk much if at all. Total, even blatant disregard for shared experiences and how incredibly powerful and memorable, due to the way our brains are wired, they truly are.
3. Using positive reinforcement to reward players who go out of their way to help in the onboarding.
4. The recognition that many players, especially the younger ones who have become accustomed to logging in and being able to do anything themselves and not needing each other, will need help.
5. The commitment on our part that if we are making a game where most of the content is being built around grouping that we facilitate finding the group, keeping the group together, and making the group turn into relationships that last, that lead to a community, to shared experiences, etc.
6. The reliance on the community to assist with all of this -- we're all in this *together*. The dev team, the post-launch expansion and live teams, the forum moderators, *and* the community taking part and armed with the ability to further this onboarding imperative.
7. Probably the biggest challenge, and certainly what will be the most controversial: how we can have a hard core challenging game, sans handholding after the first few levels, an open world and sandbox over a theme park golden path style while at the same time providing many ways to both *find* a group, *keep* the group together (that session, and then beyond that, days later), and helping that group re-form... helping the group keep going if a key group member has to log out. On the surface and perhaps even at times when digging deeper I do know some in our community will find our efforts at odds with our commitments and the style of game we are all creating. So be it though. It is what it is. We will stick together and work through it.
I fully expect some passionate discussions. I'm sure we will see the Alarmist Disposition creep into RL. I also fully expect to try some of these ideas and find that they need some real re-work and sometimes even a total 'yank it from the game' as we head into alpha and beta and ideas sounding great on paper just not panning out in the actual game. Yet another reason why a long solid pre-alpha/alpha/beta test is so essential to Pantheon's success.
As the days go by and more information is made available about these various systems I would just ask that people keep calm, keep the faith they have in us, and both be patient and willing to think (and be, and play) outside of the box. Again, some of this stuff, especially on the surface, is going to appear, at least initially, as inconsistent, even incompatible.... both incompatible in terms of gameplay and experiencing the game pre-launch but also incompatible, at least on the surface, with some of our tenets, the FAQ, etc. But, as I always try to put out there: we've no interest in creating an emulator, or simply bringing back the past. Yes, Pantheon has the same spirit and feel as many of the classics -- we've already achieved that, verified it, and are proud of it. But it's also so much more -- so much more at launch, and then holy crap! we have some crazy cool stuff that is integral to the Grand Vision, that we've been waiting years even decades to get into an MMO like this. The Pantheon opportunity is arguably a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And I can speak for myself certainly, and also confidently for the majority of the team, if not all of them: we are in this for the long haul. This is *not* fire and forget. So many ideas and dreams we have can't even start without a solid launch and enough players from all different walks of life having a great time and supporting this company with monthly subs. The launch of an MMO is like a baby being born -- beautiful, exciting, engrossing... but still a foundation upon which to then build SO much more. For a variety of reasons not right to go into details right now, none of us have been able to stay on an MMO from inception, through development, then launch, and then for years of expansions, DLCs, revamping, retooling, keeping fresh. Even a game I am *so* proud of and always will be, that is still around, that has remained commercially successful for almost 19 years now -- even that game was not built by a team that stuck together -- while it launched with a solid vision and that vision remained consistent for a couple of expansions, eventually everyone was replaced. And those that replaced did not come on board thinking 'hey, let's hold together that original Vision, see it through, build upon it.' More accurately it was looked at as an opportunity to come in and replace the original Vision with however they saw what the game should have been, and where it should have gone forward. And this didn't happen just once, but several times -- teams replaced and therefore visions replaced. I cast no blame here, nor disrespect, and simply speak the truth with no other motive than that people have an accurate understanding of history and of the impact, significant impact, that such changes can and do have real and long-term ramifications.
The opportunity we have here with Pantheon, having both Vision and Grand Vision, the long-term commitments being made as we slowly but surely teambuild, are arguably unique in the history of not only MMOs but in computer/video gaming as a whole. This is something we take very seriously and even the idea, random thought, or brain fart of squandering such an opportunity absolutely unthinkable.
And if that post didn't scare you sufficiently, just stay tuned, LoL :) I really do love you guys, the fantastic community we have, combined with having the time to do it right, reach the goals and dreams we outlined months ago, and the *freedom* we have to try to really move this genre forward even if that truly involves thinking outside of the box and trying out some really wild and crazy stuff. Start-ups are hard, indies are faced with truly unique challenges, but I’ll take it all any day vs how it used to be!
Of all the things I expected to read at nearly 4am, that was close to the bottom of the list.
I think having fundamental game mechanics that require extensive cooperation will encourage people to socialize enough on their own, but streamlining the experience with some features wouldn't be a bad idea. All of these systems sound interesting and cool in theory, so it will be nice to see how they evolve over the course of testing, or if they end up being necessary at all.
Personally, I love this idea.. People can pick and choose what they what to tell people. I would love to find other couples to play with since my husband and I almost always game together. I would also be looking for people who are night owls and love real life crafts and hobbies in game too! I would seek explorer types. I want to have experiences in game that aren't all centered on getting to end game stuff as fast as possible. I like chatting with friendlies and helping people when I can. I have actually made and kept friends I have met throughout the years in games. Some people seem to think that online friends aren't really friends but they can be, it's a matter of finding people you click with and can stand lol.
This is a marvelous idea, and I wouldn't be suprised if we see other mmo's copying it later on down the road. Brad always seems to be the trailbrazer.
See you guys on P'Harmony! =)
I love that you are concentrating so much on the social side of things. I don't mind waiting for a group to become available as long as I can chat to people I enjoy talking to while I wait. As they say, friends make everything better.
I like the idea of those new systems you mentioned Brad. As much as I loved EQ back when I played it one thing I really didn't like was sitting in a zone waiting for a space to open up in one of the groups but if there is a looking for friend system you could use that time to chat to new people and make some new friends so the time spent waiting is put to good use.
I hope the out of game community (places like forums etc) is going to be as awesome as it sounds like it is going to be in-game.
Gamerchick said:Personally, I love this idea.. People can pick and choose what they what to tell people. I would love to find other couples to play with since my husband and I almost always game together. I would also be looking for people who are night owls and love real life crafts and hobbies in game too! I would seek explorer types. I want to have experiences in game that aren't all centered on getting to end game stuff as fast as possible. I like chatting with friendlies and helping people when I can. I have actually made and kept friends I have met throughout the years in games. Some people seem to think that online friends aren't really friends but they can be, it's a matter of finding people you click with and can stand lol.
This is a marvelous idea, and I wouldn't be suprised if we see other mmo's copying it later on down the road. Brad always seems to be the trailbrazer.
See you guys on P'Harmony! =)
Woot! Guys, we have at least one person on board :)
*happy dance*
I think the match-maker idea is brilliant. It's not going to be for everybody but I do believe that plenty of people will take part. What stood out to me the most:
"4. The recognition that many players, especially the younger ones who have become accustomed to logging in and being able to do anything themselves and not needing each other, will need help.
5. The commitment on our part that if we are making a game where most of the content is being built around grouping that we facilitate finding the group, keeping the group together, and making the group turn into relationships that last, that lead to a community, to shared experiences, etc."
Many of us appreciate the oldschool hardcore MMO's, but maybe we possess more patience than your average gamer? For every 1 player who was able to stick it out and deal with extended delays for getting groups or finding friends, how many lost interest and moved on? The experience of group-oriented gameplay feels extremely rewarding when you actually get to participate, but not so much if you can't find people to group with. We need to bring people in at the beginning and help set the expectation for them that Pantheon will be a group-driven game. But unlike the old days, Pantheon is actually being developed with a "community centric" mindset as one of the core building blocks. Rather than throwing folks to the wolves to figure things out, they are urged from the get-go to get involved with the community, whether it's sharing their own information or seeking out other like-minded players. This is a great example of how VR is committed to evolving the genre.
I am not opposed to the idea of a matching system at all, I am just conflicted in thinking if it will be a solid return on investment of resources if it isn't extremely intuitive. I hope to be pleasantly surprised! It will need to be easier than a group size of people just converging on the camp and grouping up that way.
Also, if quests are a significant enough element, knowing where the group is in relation to your progression is vital info to include.
I always found lfg at a zoneline pretty useless, but once I wandered out in the zone to find a camp, you could find a new spot or start a convo with the group and either join them or get a tell saying we got room now a lil bit later... I guess this system would just let you do that with multiple groups faster...assuming the leader keeps up with managing the interface.
I'm all for tools that help people find one another so long as (as brad stated) the line between that and auto-grouping isnt crossed.
I have some concerns about mechanics that "keep groups together" nullifying the value of large worlds with meaningful travel. But I'll reserve judgements till I hear more about anything being proposed.
Logically, I think we can break potential tools down into categories:
1) Looking for group - this is for people who are looking for help with some group content on an immediate basis. Information shared here would likely be pretty succinct - class/level/dungeon I'm looking for/etc.
2) Looking for guild/community/"pHarmony"- this would be a tool to help players find other players and/or guilds that have common interests, whether it's for the purpose of forming/joining a guild, or just looking for people to add to friends list. Since this is geared towards long-term relationships, there's a lot more information that someone might put in their "profile" here, and then the system matches them to other players/guilds based on aspects of that profile.
3) Travel systems/Caravans - this are systems to allow players to keep playing together over a period of multiple play sessions in the absence of fast travel abilities.
4) Social support - these are game aspects that aren't directly related to completing content but that allow players to come together and socialize with each other. Emotes, interactive furniture, housing (which we know won't be in at launch), places to congregate/compete, minigames, and so on. Even something like an alcohol tolerance skill falls into this category.
Personally, I am on the fence on the caravan concept - It's one of those that sounds good on paper (it sounded good in Vanguard too) but it requires people to pre-plan their play sessions and that's not something that everyone does super well, so I'm not sold on how much use it will actually get. From a practical perspective, I think very limited travel-to-group systems like "summons" would probably achieve the goal of keeping groups together from one play session to the next better. However, it's worth giving it a shot and seeing how it goes during alpha/beta.
I also think that one area that needs huge focus, and that probably isn't talked about enough, is social support. If the only thing people ever do together in game is combat, then guilds and communities will form solely on the basis of combat. While that's certainly not a problem for achievement-oriented players who thrive on taking on bigger and bigger challenges, there are a lot of other players who thrive on different aspects of the game. It is hugely important that the game offer both space and features to allow these players to easily do what they love - whether that's players being able to go fight each other in an arena for fun, or an NPC tavern where roleplayers can hang out and have a drink after the raid, or even just big open event areas where crazy guilds like mine can organize community events like races and costume contests and so on. And that's not counting all the little things that add to immersion and enable social gameplay at a small scale - even something as small as being able to do a /hello and have your character wave at someone, or the ability to sit in a chair or lie down on a bed. I hope that by launch we'll be able to get lots of this stuff into the game, because while at first everyone will be busy fighting in the world of Terminus, eventually someone will want to feel like they're really living there :)
Warben said:
I always found lfg at a zoneline pretty useless, but once I wandered out in the zone to find a camp, you could find a new spot or start a convo with the group and either join them or get a tell saying we got room now a lil bit later...
As am I in what was said in past few replies
Warben just noted something I would often do, even if it was just for fun, go next to a group to socialize and help them out. I wouldn't get any XP, but the experience is\was well worth it.
Even if you do not get to group yet, they sure would have a positive vibe about what you did for them and makes you feel good too.
edit: oh, and if that isn't enough, consider that you can also better yourself by observing that group. Learn from their mistakes (rezz them after a wipe, lol), and be a better groupmember for it when you do get to join.
Maybe I have just grown grumpy in my old age. :) But one thing I hope grouping tools help solve is the random invite.
You know, you're doing your thing, or waiting on some friends and doing a little crafting, harvesting or even a little light soloing, when all of a sudden you get a group invite. No message attached, no one around within sight, just an invite to a group. I find it annoying. :)
Hopefully, a good set of tools will help those neding more use the tools and not just send our random invites to every person they see on the /who all list.
Aradune said:7. Probably the biggest challenge, and certainly what will be the most controversial: how we can have a hard core challenging game, sans handholding after the first few levels, an open world and sandbox over a theme park golden path style while at the same time providing many ways to both *find* a group, *keep* the group together (that session, and then beyond that, days later), and helping that group re-form... helping the group keep going if a key group member has to log out. On the surface and perhaps even at times when digging deeper I do know some in our community will find our efforts at odds with our commitments and the style of game we are all creating. So be it though. It is what it is. We will stick together and work through it.
As long as you guys hold firm to the idea of making this game truly challenging across all levels & keep things tuned so camping a spot isn't just setting up in a spot and going into auto-pilot; basically keep the hard mode Joppa was talking about in May and I think you will have an amazing success on your hands. The more people really need full groups and the more rewarding it is still to be in a group that works well together (helping promote keeping that team together in the long run), the more likely people are to use those networking tools.
Hopefully you guys extend some of these social tools to guilds as well. Plenty of times you can join a larger guild and not have any solid means to get to know all the other players or what they are all about, so some kind of in-game profile page would be very helpful there too.
Fulton said:Maybe I have just grown grumpy in my old age. :) But one thing I hope grouping tools help solve is the random invite.
You know, you're doing your thing, or waiting on some friends and doing a little crafting, harvesting or even a little light soloing, when all of a sudden you get a group invite. No message attached, no one around within sight, just an invite to a group. I find it annoying. :)
Hopefully, a good set of tools will help those neding more use the tools and not just send our random invites to every person they see on the /who all list.
Perhaps the simple solution is requiring someone to flag as LFG before they can receive invites? Same thing for guild.
I like the idea of having ways to find people to group with, especially that may best suit your style of play and schedule. I think we can all agree that would enhance the game to some degree.
The only thing I don't care for is merging that goal with travel. I did not have a problem staying with or reforming groups in EQ. It required communication and planning, two aspects which were crucial in all other areas of the game. It was part of the challenge. Accommodations were not necessary, and don't seem to fit the parameters of the rest of the game's philosophy.
Fulton said:Maybe I have just grown grumpy in my old age. :) But one thing I hope grouping tools help solve is the random invite.
You know, you're doing your thing, or waiting on some friends and doing a little crafting, harvesting or even a little light soloing, when all of a sudden you get a group invite. No message attached, no one around within sight, just an invite to a group. I find it annoying. :)
Hopefully, a good set of tools will help those neding more use the tools and not just send our random invites to every person they see on the /who all list.
Bah Fulton you grumpy old man ! those person are just desperate and want action going ASAP !!. I would often, after asking what they wanted to run just join such group to help out given that I was not busy with something else. It sometimes end up being ..... interesting quickly !
Count me in. I was on board after reading the Original article. Brad posting even More info just makes it even better.
I would also love if you (brad/pantheon/etc) also threw in optional social connections such as Facebook, Twitter, instagram etc.
I liked being able to post my screen shots in WoW directly to my twitter account from within the game.
I am definately looking forward to testing this. Whatever info we need and whatever community we create is in the hands of the community, and that is exciting. Sometimes you need to put yourselfout there and erase some anonimity to make real connections.That is what keeps me logging in for months on end after I have nothing left to do.
Nephele said:I also think that one area that needs huge focus, and that probably isn't talked about enough, is social support. If the only thing people ever do together in game is combat, then guilds and communities will form solely on the basis of combat. While that's certainly not a problem for achievement-oriented players who thrive on taking on bigger and bigger challenges, there are a lot of other players who thrive on different aspects of the game. It is hugely important that the game offer both space and features to allow these players to easily do what they love - whether that's players being able to go fight each other in an arena for fun, or an NPC tavern where roleplayers can hang out and have a drink after the raid, or even just big open event areas where crazy guilds like mine can organize community events like races and costume contests and so on. And that's not counting all the little things that add to immersion and enable social gameplay at a small scale - even something as small as being able to do a /hello and have your character wave at someone, or the ability to sit in a chair or lie down on a bed. I hope that by launch we'll be able to get lots of this stuff into the game, because while at first everyone will be busy fighting in the world of Terminus, eventually someone will want to feel like they're really living there :)
Nephele don't just sit there, grab the other side of the 2man saw and help me cut this tree down, the rest area isn't going to supply itself with wood mate. After we restock the rest stop I'll need you to help me on the trawler, while I steer the boat I need you to cast the net out, I'm hoping we'll catch a big barracuda so that we can use its scales to craft armor that will render those annoying skeleton attacks trivial. Their oil will come in handy too for making that underwater breathing potion so we don't experience more casualties visting our Dark Myr friends. Oh! But before we do that I have to make those shoes with the springs on the soles as that Kilsin fella has a propensity to find himself at the bottom of the cliffs. Well, heave ho it's not getting any lighter!
Nephele said:
I also think that one area that needs huge focus, and that probably isn't talked about enough, is social support. If the only thing people ever do together in game is combat, then guilds and communities will form solely on the basis of combat. While that's certainly not a problem for achievement-oriented players who thrive on taking on bigger and bigger challenges, there are a lot of other players who thrive on different aspects of the game. It is hugely important that the game offer both space and features to allow these players to easily do what they love - whether that's players being able to go fight each other in an arena for fun, or an NPC tavern where roleplayers can hang out and have a drink after the raid, or even just big open event areas where crazy guilds like mine can organize community events like races and costume contests and so on. And that's not counting all the little things that add to immersion and enable social gameplay at a small scale - even something as small as being able to do a /hello and have your character wave at someone, or the ability to sit in a chair or lie down on a bed. I hope that by launch we'll be able to get lots of this stuff into the game, because while at first everyone will be busy fighting in the world of Terminus, eventually someone will want to feel like they're really living there :)
This part really stood out for me, and I can't agree more! There needs to be more than just combat oriented activities. This is where the crafting/professions part of the game could really shine, but it would be nice if there was even more activities not related to that players could hang out and do together.
A lottery event in game where you can purchase a ticket from an npc would be a great money sink, and perhaps the reward would be a one of a kind no-trade uber item that people can show off, maybe some rewards are funny, maybe some are extravagant. I don't know just brainstorming here. Fashion shows, where crafters will be wanted to make special looking outfits.. Wedding events - things of the sort, but you know the thing to make these get togethers interesting is to give people incentives to participate that's key.
Shortened to simplicty : Give us reasons to hang out together beasides combat and rewards us sometimes for doing so.
Vaeruun said:Nephele don't just sit there, grab the other side of the 2man saw and help me cut this tree down, the rest area isn't going to supply itself with wood mate. After we restock the rest stop I'll need you to help me on the trawler, while I steer the boat I need you to cast the net out, I'm hoping we'll catch a big barracuda so that we can use its scales to craft armor that will render those annoying skeleton attacks trivial. Their oil will come in handy too for making that underwater breathing potion so we don't experience more casualties visting our Dark Myr friends. Oh! But before we do that I have to make those shoes with the springs on the soles as that Kilsin fella has a propensity to find himself at the bottom of the cliffs. Well, heave ho it's not getting any lighter!
LOL at the thought of Kilsin in spring shoes.
Gamerchick said:A lottery event in game where you can purchase a ticket from an npc would be a great money sink, and perhaps the reward would be a one of a kind no-trade uber item that people can show off, maybe some rewards are funny, maybe some are extravagant. I don't know just brainstorming here. Fashion shows, where crafters will be wanted to make special looking outfits.. Wedding events - things of the sort, but you know the thing to make these get togethers interesting is to give people incentives to participate that's key.
Exactly. And honestly, supporting that kind of gameplay comes down to the little things. We don't need big complex systems or mechanics - just simple stuff. Stuff like social/cosmetic clothing. A wide range of animated emotes/social actions. A variety of dance animations. Benches in the park in the middle of the city. Is it a bit more work for the artists and developers? Yes. But the return on that investment, in terms of community engagement, can be huge.
Allow me to happy dance too! I made a great friend in EQ and we had a grand time. Sometimes we called EQ our chat room with great graphics. (We were more easily impressed with graphics back then) So the idea of doing more than whacking bad guys appeals to me. There are definitely times I want to whack mobs too, I want to go everywhere and see everything and conquer stuff, but I hope to craft a lot too. I want to make friends and get to know group/guild mates. I want that social experience that Aradune talks about and I’m loving it.
Great idea and its optional for those against it. I would like to know if the people I am grouping with are casual or non stop grinding min/maxers or a little in between. That will effect who I choose to group with. If people want to list a few real life hobbies, sure why not. That's not to secret info and it usually comes out in groups over time.