Angrykiz said:I also feel that some more dangerous foes should damage armor and weapons more than a mundane opponent would.
I'm strongly against repair NPC and feel that all repairs should be done through crafting by players.
Repairs will help prevent people from just zerging something to kill it or just banging heads against a raid mob til you get a lucky run.
I like this as it is simply put. DDO has something similar, where if you hit these oozes it breaks your weapon a heck of a lot faster. It's interesting, not sure how much I like it yet.
NPC repairs are boring. And players can make tons of money off of repairing items. But at the same time, they could just have a guild bank and not really have to pay anything for repairs except for the mats farmed, which helps the harvesters, but also makes it so people don't have to quickly find someone ready and not too busy to repair their armor. Plus, is this gonna be done in a trade window of sorts? I ask because I know in almost every single game, there are really nice pieces of armor that are not tradeable at all. Otherwise the best raiding guild could just farm all the raids and dungeons and sell it to players. Defeating the purpose and idea of people playing the game for themselves. Just a thought, though...
I hate the idea of people banging their heads against it over and over. It means any guild with enough geared people will just throw a raid together and keep going for hours and hours until they finally remember it in their sleep and get it down. Skilled raiders/intelligent players > smash face to keyboard x20 and win... eventually. That shouldn't be with just raids though, it should be like this with dungeons and some much harder group quests.
I can't wait to start testing. Because then I'll actually know which mechanics I'll like and dislike about the game so I can give real feedback :(
At first glance at this post, SWG came to mind. I dont know how many of you played SWG but its crafting/creating system set the standard imo for all MMO's however that game was built solely on that aspect. Something im sure this game isnt. Which is perfectly fine. Finding gear in SWG wasnt something you really did versus finding "components" or "resources of highest value" to make the gear better by modding it during a crafting process. I bring this up because that game had intense degrading value. Where you had to be careful with your gear. Fighting elders for pearls, pretty much wore half your gear out in a few hours. Was a nice turn around of constant gear swapping, buying or crafting.
On another note, would be cool to see armor/gear degrade over time versus having it degrade from damage. Like a set of brakes on a car. Probably be 90%+ efficiency for a long time but longer that item is present and used in game, it slowly wears out beyond return. Im sure that would be a logistical nightmare for coding LOL
I liked how EQ2 did it. When you died, you lost 10% durability on everything you had equipped. Once you got to 0%, that gear needed to be repaired before you could wear it again. Reduced durability didn't alter the stats though ... if armor damage causes gear to become less effective, I can see going into a fight with 100% armor being a huge deal, because with each death, the fight technically gets harder. That would be annoying. I would like to see a mechanic where certain enemies can damage your gear though. Maybe acidic oozes that need to be attacked with magic because they melt weapons when struck with them, or even enemies that can cast spells or use weapons that damage gear. Gear damage is fine I just don't want to see having 100% repaired armor be an advantage for fights.
oneADseven said:I liked how EQ2 did it. When you died, you lost 10% durability on everything you had equipped. Once you got to 0%, that gear needed to be repaired before you could wear it again. Reduced durability didn't alter the stats though ... if armor damage causes gear to become less effective, I can see going into a fight with 100% armor being a huge deal, because with each death, the fight technically gets harder. That would be annoying.
I didn't mind how EQ2 did it because it was due to you dying. You died because of a mistake, a miscalculation, an error and you should be penalized. You've got the death penalty where you lose some xp and leave behind a corps with items that you need to retrieve and, perhaps, you need to re-sharpen that sword and hammer out a few dents in that armor.
But to all the people clamoring about repairs being done by players and drooling over the money they will make. Think again. The first rule to making lots of money is not spending what money you have. Smart players will take up the tradeskills to repair their own gear. Why pay someone else's marked up fees? Guilded players, well, they will just go their guildmates for repairs and other than handing over needed materials, guildmates won't charge fees to guildmates.
oneADseven said:I liked how EQ2 did it. When you died, you lost 10% durability on everything you had equipped. Once you got to 0%, that gear needed to be repaired before you could wear it again. Reduced durability didn't alter the stats though ... if armor damage causes gear to become less effective, I can see going into a fight with 100% armor being a huge deal, because with each death, the fight technically gets harder. That would be annoying. I would like to see a mechanic where certain enemies can damage your gear though. Maybe acidic oozes that need to be attacked with magic because they melt weapons when struck with them, or even enemies that can cast spells or use weapons that damage gear. Gear damage is fine I just don't want to see having 100% repaired armor be an advantage for fights.
Like the idea, i didnt have much time in EQ2, just EQ. I have played many other games where durability has been used when your hit you lose item quality. The factors they used, where mostly harsh. A 100% item after 20 hits seems to be broken, or they used some system that after so many repairs the item level line would reduce, making it useless to repair. After so many repairs also became useless.
Maybe tradeskill armorsmith, and weaponsmith can be used to repair items?
Cromulent said:TL;DR Items need to be 100% destructable because the longer the game is out for the more items enter the market and the lower the item is valued at.
Crom I played Eve from 2007 to 2017 to give you an idea of how bad it was getting for me. I lived in -0.1 and lower. I also did worm hole life for 4 years. I can fly every ship in the game for Caldari. I have gone through 2 Titans 2 dreadnuahgts, and countless ships lower then that. I have lost Tengu's that were 4 billion a pop. I have spent in the trillions in Eve. Countless hours of mining, and countless hours of protecting our Citadel in our worm hole. Each of those ships had nothing less then officer fits on them. It didn't matter to me because most of the stuff I had was built by me and farmed by me, but most of the PVE folks had to rely on the markets.
There are two games in EvE and that is the PVE side and the PVP side. I was on the PVP side. Was there for the massive fight with BoB and there when Goonswarm moved back in to High Security. They actually did an article in Forbes Magazine about the actual cost of one of the battles we had in that game which was roughly 11k (don't remember the actual figure) worth of real world loss.
Was a fun game while I played, but the amount of time spent in that game just to be the best was more headache then it was worth in the end. I hope there is no feature like 100% loss in Pantheon.
Evorus said:Cromulent said:TL;DR Items need to be 100% destructable because the longer the game is out for the more items enter the market and the lower the item is valued at.
Crom I played Eve from 2007 to 2017 to give you an idea of how bad it was getting for me. I lived in -0.1 and lower. I also did worm hole life for 4 years. I can fly every ship in the game for Caldari. I have gone through 2 Titans 2 dreadnuahgts, and countless ships lower then that. I have lost Tengu's that were 4 billion a pop. I have spent in the trillions in Eve. Countless hours of mining, and countless hours of protecting our Citadel in our worm hole. Each of those ships had nothing less then officer fits on them. It didn't matter to me because most of the stuff I had was built by me and farmed by me, but most of the PVE folks had to rely on the markets.
There are two games in EvE and that is the PVE side and the PVP side. I was on the PVP side. Was there for the massive fight with BoB and there when Goonswarm moved back in to High Security. They actually did an article in Forbes Magazine about the actual cost of one of the battles we had in that game which was roughly 11k (don't remember the actual figure) worth of real world loss.
Was a fun game while I played, but the amount of time spent in that game just to be the best was more headache then it was worth in the end. I hope there is no feature like 100% loss in Pantheon.
Sounds like you had some fun while you were playing it. I can understand how frustrating it must be to lose your all your hard work in a battle and I respect your opinion. I am looking forward to getting more into the PvP side of EVE side. I imagine it will be highly annoying at times and will really piss me off but that is half the fun.
Kilsin already said that Brad doesn't want item loss in Pantheon so this thread should probably just die as it isn't going to be a feature. I just worry we are going to end up with an economy like EverQuest which was so broken it was unbelievable and I want to discuss any option (this idea was the most obvious option but I'm sure we could come up with other solutions to the problem that might be more popular) that would prevent the sort of EverQuest economy happening in this game.
Anyway I acknowledge that this was an unpopular idea. Thanks for all the feedback guys. Sometimes just throwing ideas out there even if they are unpopular gets useful discussion going.
Don't fret. When the economy becomes broken beyond repair Brad will have been in developement of Pantheon 2 for several years! :p
Never forget to emote lest someone take it the wrong way.
*edit: I don't support 100% destruction, and am on the fence about item damage, and I craft more than I adventure. Added emote to put Liav's mind at ease. I am looking forward to Pantheon 2 year of release projected 2026. ;=)
While I can appreciate the thought behind destructable weapons/armor I'm not really in favor of it. When I play Pantheon I want to be focused on leveling and questing, not spending all my time and money at the forge. Crafting has it's place and IMO should always be well rewarded but not required.
Liav said:Chimerical said:Don't fret. When the economy becomes broken beyond repair Brad will have been in developement of Pantheon 2 for several years!
Yes, because everyone knows permanent item loss is the only way to preserve an economy. =/
I never said it was. But it is one way to preserve the economy. This forum is about throwing out ideas and discussing them.
Cromulent said:Liav said:Chimerical said:Don't fret. When the economy becomes broken beyond repair Brad will have been in developement of Pantheon 2 for several years!
Yes, because everyone knows permanent item loss is the only way to preserve an economy. =/
I never said it was. But it is one way to preserve the economy. This forum is about throwing out ideas and discussing them.
I'm aware, which is why this wasn't directed at you, The implication I got from Chimerical was that a lack of permanent item destruction leads to an "economy broken beyond repair". Hyperbolic at least.
Liav said:Cromulent said:Liav said:Chimerical said:Don't fret. When the economy becomes broken beyond repair Brad will have been in developement of Pantheon 2 for several years!
Yes, because everyone knows permanent item loss is the only way to preserve an economy. =/
I never said it was. But it is one way to preserve the economy. This forum is about throwing out ideas and discussing them.
I'm aware, which is why this wasn't directed at you, The implication I got from Chimerical was that a lack of permanent item destruction leads to an "economy broken beyond repair". Hyperbolic at least.
Well the sky didnt just fall but I agree with Liav on this as item repair shouldnt DRIVE an economy. It should be a part of it. Personally I like realism and items breaking are def realistic BUT they should also be able to be repaired. So like someone else mentioned earlier, eq2 had a pretty good system for it, and it was easy enuf after a raid etc to get your stuf fixed. IF Brad and friends want it to be a player character you go to then virtually every person in the game will have a blacksmith or some such to fix their gear. At worst you have friends that could fix stuf for you thru a trade window that allowed non tradable items to be made/reforged etc. It was a good way to get around the no trade issues. Reason I mention that is you may have to get your bow fixed or a bowyer, leather armor so a leather worker. IF you can only have 1 craft per character then obviously you wont be able to fix everything you have that could break or take damage. Personally I would like there to be dif trade skills that would do just that, it would force ppl to actually interact with other players UNLESS you have multiple accounts. The real problem with all of that realism is that it would take time for some ppl to actually go thru all of their gear and get each piece fixed. To a casual gamer that might be all of the time they had for that week let alone day. So there would have to be a balance even to that.
I like non-magic based items having durability. I think magically enchanted items should not have durability because they are … well … magical.
You may ask how you can put this into a game because it would only affect lower level players. My answer is, why not make the game so that not every single item you have is magical. Why not make the game where you can find a better piece of equipment that may just lack magical enchantment.
I do not think every single high level item must be magical. By designing the game so that some high level items are just normal equipment, at every level range you are giving players an incentive to upgrade. It also creates a meta-game where players are deciding between better non-magical items or perhaps weaker magical items.
oneADseven said: Gear durability is fine ... EQ2 pulled it off really well. The main issue was in T5 with instanced content. Once your armor was at 0%, you were done with that instance for the week unless you had backup gear. Eventually repair kits were added and that fixed the problem. In an open world game, I don't see it being an issue. 10% durability loss per death is perfectly reasonable. I just wouldn't want to see the stats on gear depreciate as it gets damaged. Would it be realistic? Sure ... but it also creates super annoying problems that aren't worth the realism. If my raid wipes against a boss 9 times and still has 10% durability left on their gear ... they should feel just as confident now (more even, after all that practice) than when they first started pulling. When it comes to the hardest content in the game, where min maxing is basically required ... I don't want to see having high durability on my gear used as a factor on whether or not any fight is beatable. Time is already going to be important. I wouldn't want to leave an area to go repair gear for the extra stats.
Most of us had multiple sets of gear , along with Unequip_ command before dying :) on obvious wipe
If crafting is done right, and salvaging items for some, not all, of the raw materials (and mabye magic ruins or gems for magic items) is possible, then items will be removed from game. Especially if some of those materials are difficult to acquire in the world, thereby the easiest way of upgrading something would be to salvage something else.
