TL;DR Items need to be 100% destructable because the longer the game is out for the more items enter the market and the lower the item is valued at.
I've just started playing EVE Online on Monday and the reputation it has of being really hard to learn is certainly true. I've been lucky in that I've been streaming it on Twitch and people have been teaching me how to play it. One thing that really caught my eye in EVE Online is that your ship and all your fittings (guns etc) can be totally destroyed. This means that items on the market tend to keep their value as there is a constant need for new items as people lose their ships and items. This means there is always a constant need for players to make new items and players buying those items.
I did a PvE mission that resulted in my ship being destroyed. I now need to buy a whole ship and all the fittings that go along with it and if I lose my ship again I'll have to do the same thing again.
If the same sort of thing happened in Pantheon then it would ensure that there was always a demand for new items from the marketplace and from crafters and the value of items would remain constant. If you've ever logged into one of the original servers in EverQuest and gone to the Bazaar you'll see that the marketplace is totally crazy. Items that used to be worth alot are now pretty much worthless. I don't want to see the same thing happening in Pantheon.
Plus another advantage of this system is that it will lower the expected gear level of players allowing players with worse gear to be able to get into some of the higher level guilds because they expect players to have their items destroyed on a semi-regular basis. I think this will actually help the economy and crafters in particular who spent their time making items with the aim of making a profit. The more demand there is for crafted items the more people will be tempted to start crafting which can only be a good thing.
I could have posted this in the crafting forum but I wanted the feedback of people who don't normally do crafting stuff.
This has been pretty highly debated because it is indeed an important topic. See these threads:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1382/item-degredation-and-repair
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4084/item-durability-amp-decay
Last we knew, Brad was not really in favor of losing items to damage. But that's not to say they won't at least test it.
PFO (and other games like Shroud) tried this, and it didn't work. I won't say they failed, because I'm being kind, but they totally failed, in this regard.
Something like this, where items cannot be repaired, or items decay over time/use, or you pay to repair something not-back-to-max, but then hey, you CAN repair an item fully if you buy special currency, etc?
It's a design philosophy. It's a fundamental tenet. You can't just add it in randomly and expect it will work with the entire rest of the game design without problems. Disposable equipment is not a fundamental tenet of many MMO's, EQ included. In most, gear is either indestructible through normal use or repairable back to max, so using your gear has an ongoing cost, like consumables. Ongoing gear costs that don't exceed the output of gold taps (sources) aren't particularly effective. Players expect to be able to be rich, and around and around the merry-go-round goes.
Ultimately, when not considered as part of the original design, disposable gear works in opposition to players feeling powerful, and that's typically why it's eithers perceived as negative or ends up being wildly UNpopular.
Now, that's not to say you can't design a game where your gear is disposable and you still feel powerful. You can. But that game isn't Pantheon, from the design goals presented thus far, and we're about 3 years past the point where that idea would be palatable to the devs, sadly.
vjek said:PFO (and other games like Shroud) tried this, and it didn't work. I won't say they failed, because I'm being kind, but they totally failed, in this regard.
Something like this, where items cannot be repaired, or items decay over time/use, or you pay to repair something not-back-to-max, but then hey, you CAN repair an item fully if you buy special currency, etc?
It's a design philosophy. It's a fundamental tenet. You can't just add it in randomly and expect it will work with the entire rest of the game design without problems. Disposable equipment is not a fundamental tenet of many MMO's, EQ included. In most, gear is either indestructible through normal use or repairable back to max, so using your gear has an ongoing cost, like consumables. Ongoing gear costs that don't exceed the output of gold taps (sources) aren't particularly effective. Players expect to be able to be rich, and around and around the merry-go-round goes.
Ultimately, when not considered as part of the original design, disposable gear works in opposition to players feeling powerful, and that's typically why it's eithers perceived as negative or ends up being wildly UNpopular.
Now, that's not to say you can't design a game where your gear is disposable and you still feel powerful. You can. But that game isn't Pantheon, from the design goals presented thus far, and we're about 3 years past the point where that idea would be palatable to the devs, sadly.
Fair points. I never played that game so can't comment on it.
You also make a good point about it not being possible to shoe horn item destruction into the game this late in the process. I should have considered that. I am certainly pleased with the information that has been released about crafting so far it sounds like the team have some great ideas and being able to customise items sounds really cool. I've just been blown away by EVE Online in recent days. I've been playing it since Monday and wow, what a fantastic game. So much to do in it (although there is still a hell of a lot left for me to learn about it). I just like the feeling in it of always having the items that you craft being required because people lose items in PvP or PvE and need replacements.
I guess the best thing to do at this moment in time is see what other information comes out about crafting. From what I have heard so far in the recent newsletters they are certainly on the right track. I'm just looking forward to hearing more information about it :). I think the thing that I'd love to hear is how the team plan on combating items losing their value as more and more enter the marketplace and then I'll be really happy.
Destructable where they break and disappear forever is bad to me....
If you break it and can't use it until you reforge it or it passes a certain amount of time in your magical bag of pwning broken weapons for a given amount of time I could grudgingly see this as an additional element to manage your resources in the game (think the master sword feel in Zelda BoTW)
The only aspect of Pantheon I'm aware of that might get close is sacrificing items at an altar for long term buffs. If the buffs are good enough, people will sacrifice everything to get them.
"
13.11 Will I be able to freely trade my items?
We recognize that the items you gain from your adventures, or the hard-earned gold coins, are yours and that you should be able to do with them whatever you want. This means that no-drop and bind-on-equip items will be the exception, not the rule. Epic weapons or items used for quests may be restricted, but the majority of items will not. That said, some quests may require you to turn in an older item in order to complete them. You will also be able to sacrifice items at altars in temples in return for valuable and long lasting ‘buffs’. So, while the game will not stop you from handing down most items to other players, it will also encourage you to remove older items from the player-driven economy by rewarding you accordingly.
" (from the current FAQ)
But I suspect, like many things, it will be really good, exploited, then nerfed to the point where only the foolish/ignorant use it. Unfortunately.
I agree with item destruction *provided* losing an item won't leave you in a position where you have to repeat a freakishly long grind.
This is one of the reason why I believe the best items in the game should be crafted. Put extra-rare loot behind boss/raid fights all you want, but that should be a bonus rather than the one and only way to get end-game gear. Make it so rare materials get picked up and put up for sale, finding their way to crafters who can then offer the best gear for sale back to the adventurers. Don't make it so you have to camp a boss for 3 months to get a specific piece of gear, then lose it to damage (or possibly unsuccessful corpse run, or other ways of losing gear that may come up) and need to camp another 3 months.
It's a delicate issue because I know many people find end-game exclusive gear A Good Thing. I personally do not. I don't really care if players get their gear from drops - and there's always the possibility that they were carried for that - or by purchasing it. Make materials rare enough and the item price will reflect the exclusivity, but it will remove so many issues such as camping, bad RNG, etc. And it will feed the in-game economy and give purpose to crafters.
No, they don't.
Rarity and utility will keep prices up enough on their own. Some items are more mundane than others, and it's just not possible to prevent them from getting devalued.
Raid gear will in all likelihood be No-Drop. What about epic weapons?
This works in EVE because EVE was made from the ground up to support it. It's also a PvP game. NPCs don't have gear. They are a static challenge relative to your level and equipment.
You are most certainly that items lose thier value as the games get further into expansions. Better items become available and unless your item is tradeable it just becomes obsolete. One way of adjusting this is to make items more flexible through crafting. You have a "Sturdy Breastplate of Stamina" and you recieve a better breastplate. Now your breastplate is lore so it is not sellable or wearable by any other. But maybe if the made it an ingrediant in crafting so someone can remake it into an upgradeable piece of armor, say an "Sturdy Bratstpate of Strength and Fortitude" by recrafting it with additional resources than it will take it out of the econamy but add something for new for someone else. Maybe for your alt of for a guldie who is new. That way the item is 100% destructable but the person who owned it is not completely out of luck by losing thier original investment.
Maybe the item will lose value when it loses its strength and is not repairable but can be used as an ingredient in another recipe. I am sure VR has any great ideas for "used items" but to have then just destroyed due to wear and tear ,to me, is not a viable solution for anyone, especially for the owner of the item. If you think your item/armor is not worth savint than you should absolutely be able to destroy it. But will you? when it is your coins you are throwing away maybe you will have a change of heart. To be able to sell it to someone else to wear is not the best chice but to be able to rework it into another piece of gear is a solution I would be in favor of.
No no no no no no no no a million times NO.
The only item destruction I want in the game is the proposed item sacrificing, salvaging, just hitting a "destroy item" button, or some variation thereof. Only consented destruction.
I am not even in fan of item repair in a game like this as it tends to disrupt grouping too much when combined with death and vendor runs.
I wouldn't mind seeing armor repairs be a thing. I doubt it will happen but I never had an issue with it and always felt it was a solid gold/plat sink. Also, it could giver crafters "in the field" some extra opportunities for player interaction. As far as items being permanently destroyed, I'd rather see that be something exclusive to sacrificing gear to altars or dismantling it for pieces/parts. I definitely don't want to see gear wear down over time to the point where it can become obsolete. I don't mind repairing it, but I don't want to be forced to replace equipment that I have to work hard for.
Another possibility, other than the stuff stated above, is the fact that there's just going to be a lot more armor involved in the game. Yea you'll look for specifics but the specifics should be kinda like a rare drop from a mob; with all the best stats for a specific class. There's going to be quest rewards for armor and such I think, as well as loot from mobs and bosses, and then crafting! But they also shouldn't make every single mob drop loot or every single quest give armor. Armor, weapon (etc.) drops should happen, but maybe not as often or consistant as other games. That way you won't see like 40 pieces of the same armor being traded amongst the community. I think they wanted people to focus a lot on crafting anyways as well. To give crafters a reason to craft armor. You'll run around with some crap stuff for a bit, some of the stuff dropped with be good as you level, but you might have to fill in with some crafted stuff because wrists you could use haven't dropped from any mobs yet. Maybe you need to craft a weapon and accessories because those haven't dropped yet. Then the dropped ones you do get happen to be really good for you as you level and explore some more... But then something else doesn't drop as you level past some of your gear, so you need to find a crafter to make you specifics again. That would be ideal I think. Then they could also add in the variety of states and grades for gear so if someone farms a ton of gold and wants the best gear to keep moving along, they can just buy it from someone who spends a good chunk of their time leveling up crafting to make money.
On top of all of that, people create alts. Whether it be for crafting, dungeoning, for their guild for raiding variety purposes, or because they just enjoy the game that much. And Pantheon is suppose to be a long adventure towards "End Game". So new people and all the alts being created won't necessarily mean all the lower level stuff will become irrelevant or lose its value. Just because it's happened in a lot of the MMO's today does not mean that's what's going to happen in Pantheon. They are intentionally going to avoid that, because that is one of the big reasons why MMO's are failing today. The low level stuff gets left behind and forgotten and then new players start off in dead zones and don't get any help unless they join a guild FULL of random people they haven't even played with. And that's where we get our term zergs. Because now a days in a lot of these MMO's, guilds just mass recruit. And there's nothing great about that....
I can't see armor death being a huge thing though. Especially once you reach a raiding level or dungeoning level with a group. It would be really inconvenient and I can see people turning away from a game for that. Plus it's not that realistic. Your armor shouldn't just POOF. Armor and weapons get used up and broken, but it usually just gets repaired. Like 1AD7 said, repairing isn't bad, but the moment you have to replace a weapon you farmed for hours, you're gonna end up hating the game. <--- That's another reason why armor death may not work so great. People want mob farming and camping back for those rare spawns/items. NO ONE will camp or farm if they know their stuff is going to die faster than it took to get it.
oneADseven said:I wouldn't mind seeing armor repairs be a thing. I doubt it will happen but I never had an issue with it and always felt it was a solid gold/plat sink. Also, it could giver crafters "in the field" some extra opportunities for player interaction. As far as items being permanently destroyed, I'd rather see that be something exclusive to sacrificing gear to altars or dismantling it for pieces/parts. I definitely don't want to see gear wear down over time to the point where it can become obsolete. I don't mind repairing it, but I don't want to be forced to replace equipment that I have to work hard for.
I would go a step further and say anything could be repaired as anything can be hit while in combat OR even if you are standing just outside of combat and get hit by an aoe. What would fireball or lightning bolt do to jewelry etc? If you want a bit more realism that would be the way to go and it would def be a money sink. I agree totally about completely losing an item as it would suck. For the sake of realism you would make the game 100x harder and its already going to be hard enuf. Personally I wouldnt care how they did it BUT I cant imagine having leather armor fall of of my body while in combat because it failed a save. How about your weapon breaking when you hit the ogre over the head with it? All would be prefectly logical in the real world but it would really make it hard on alot of players who dont have the time to put into the game. At worst you could have the item that failed a save go thru dif levels until it breaks then have to have it fixed. That way you would know when to stop using it and replace it with something else until you can get it fixed. Rarely would it go from perfect to broken in one combat.
Cromulent said:TL;DR Items need to be 100% destructable because the longer the game is out for the more items enter the market and the lower the item is valued at.
I've just started playing EVE Online on Monday and the reputation it has of being really hard to learn is certainly true. I've been lucky in that I've been streaming it on Twitch and people have been teaching me how to play it. One thing that really caught my eye in EVE Online is that your ship and all your fittings (guns etc) can be totally destroyed. This means that items on the market tend to keep their value as there is a constant need for new items as people lose their ships and items. This means there is always a constant need for players to make new items and players buying those items.
I did a PvE mission that resulted in my ship being destroyed. I now need to buy a whole ship and all the fittings that go along with it and if I lose my ship again I'll have to do the same thing again.
If the same sort of thing happened in Pantheon then it would ensure that there was always a demand for new items from the marketplace and from crafters and the value of items would remain constant. If you've ever logged into one of the original servers in EverQuest and gone to the Bazaar you'll see that the marketplace is totally crazy. Items that used to be worth alot are now pretty much worthless. I don't want to see the same thing happening in Pantheon.
Plus another advantage of this system is that it will lower the expected gear level of players allowing players with worse gear to be able to get into some of the higher level guilds because they expect players to have their items destroyed on a semi-regular basis. I think this will actually help the economy and crafters in particular who spent their time making items with the aim of making a profit. The more demand there is for crafted items the more people will be tempted to start crafting which can only be a good thing.
I could have posted this in the crafting forum but I wanted the feedback of people who don't normally do crafting stuff.
I think if they were to allow it, they would need to make it repairable or salvagable. It would make for interesting player economics if it could be mended by another player (crafter). And the level at which it could be restored would depend on the crafters ability. Maybe make some slightly more powerful weapons or other equipment that have a low durability rating. Would help drive crafting as part of the core gameplay.
Cromulent said:TL;DR Items need to be 100% destructable because the longer the game is out for the more items enter the market and the lower the item is valued at.
I've just started playing EVE Online on Monday and the reputation it has of being really hard to learn is certainly true. I've been lucky in that I've been streaming it on Twitch and people have been teaching me how to play it. One thing that really caught my eye in EVE Online is that your ship and all your fittings (guns etc) can be totally destroyed. This means that items on the market tend to keep their value as there is a constant need for new items as people lose their ships and items. This means there is always a constant need for players to make new items and players buying those items.
I did a PvE mission that resulted in my ship being destroyed. I now need to buy a whole ship and all the fittings that go along with it and if I lose my ship again I'll have to do the same thing again.
You're leaving out to many factors that allow ships to be destroyed left and right without crippling the players.
+You can legally buy billions of ISK using real currency from CCP.
+Ships and all their fittings can be covered by insurance which can pay back nearly 90% or more of what you spent on the ships and fittings. (this is less true with T2, T3 hulls/fittings)
+Lastly, and this is the most important part: Eve Online has a thousands of ways to earn ISK (in-game currency) many of which require little to no player interaction at all.
+Level 4 PvE missions in high-security space are stupidly easy with very high payouts.
+'Ratting' out in 0.0 space is even more lulcrative and incredibly safe (as safe as missions in high-sec)
+Planetary interaction (very low player interaction due to high degree of automation lets you 'set it and forget it' for days on end.
+Ship and module building.
+Moon Mining (more of a corporate/alliance income source but one that pays for 100% ship reimbursements programs.)
+Market Trading. buy low, sell high. People earn trillions of isk of market PVP.
This all works for EVE because the game was designed around these mechanics. CCP wants players shooting each other so it makes total sense that replacing ships/modules should be incredibly easy. It's risk vs reward. People will not fight if they can't afford to replace their ships. This is proven time and time again.
Pantheon won't have such numerous revenue streams open to the players so no, losing all your gear fighting monsters will not happen. Mark my words.
EDIT: Oh, I forgot that even when you lose your ship, you do not lose everything. You leave a wreck behind and a random number generator goes through your modules and items in your cargohold and leaves behind some percentage of stuff that was on your ship. I've seen nothing in my wrecks while other times I've recovered nearly everything.
To be very clear, Brad has said that he doesn't want it in Pantheon, we do not have it in currently, but even if it did make it in after testing if we felt there was a need for it, it isn't as bad as people make it out to be, I will copy my post from another thread below for reasons behind why I say that but people try to compare item degradation fitting into EQ or other games that implemented it poorly and that doesn't do the system justice at all.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes had item degradation and it was no trouble at all, had little effect on the player base, was a measly annoyance every now, cost hardly anything to repair, allows crafters to make repair kits that you can stack and take with you but played a much bigger overall role in the economy and health of the game, it was no big deal.
Previous Post:
"Just to flip the coin again and jump in here, while item degradation may be an annoyance, it is a vital part of keeping the economy healthy as it is a money sink that is very important in keeping the money cycling. Yes there are many ways to do this and I believe there should be many ways implemented but I also strongly agree with item degradation and repair costs being implemented to help maintain a healthy economy which will promote spending/earning especially since we may not be able to launch with a crafting, harvesting or tradeskill sphere.
If adventurers head out and slaughter beasts for a few hours, whether it's overland or down in the depths of a dungeon, they should have to come back and polish their armour, repair dings and dents, sharpen their weapons, wash their bloody clothes and buff their shields.
They should not come back after all that fighting absolutely sparkling clean and shiny just as they left without any consequences at all!
It may not be a fun mechanic but it is an important one if we are to maintain a healthy economy.
I would really like to give this job to crafters too and allow crafters to make a profit from cleaning, polishing and repairing specific types of armour depending on their crafting skills plus their clothing and weapons and have a higher priced NPC option available to do an average/basic job if no crafter is available but the money sink is very important."
Kilsin said:To be very clear, Brad has said that he doesn't want it in Pantheon, we do not have it in currently, but even if it did make it in after testing if we felt there was a need for it, it isn't as bad as people make it out to be, I will copy my post from another thread below for reasons behind why I say that but people try to compare item degradation fitting into EQ or other games that implemented it poorly and that doesn't do the system justice at all.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes had item degradation and it was no trouble at all, had little effect on the player base, was a measly annoyance every now, cost hardly anything to repair, allows crafters to make repair kits that you can stack and take with you but played a much bigger overall role in the economy and health of the game, it was no big deal.
Previous Post:
"Just to flip the coin again and jump in here, while item degradation may be an annoyance, it is a vital part of keeping the economy healthy as it is a money sink that is very important in keeping the money cycling. Yes there are many ways to do this and I believe there should be many ways implemented but I also strongly agree with item degradation and repair costs being implemented to help maintain a healthy economy which will promote spending/earning especially since we may not be able to launch with a crafting, harvesting or tradeskill sphere.If adventurers head out and slaughter beasts for a few hours, whether it's overland or down in the depths of a dungeon, they should have to come back and polish their armour, repair dings and dents, sharpen their weapons, wash their bloody clothes and buff their shields.
They should not come back after all that fighting absolutely sparkling clean and shiny just as they left without any consequences at all!
It may not be a fun mechanic but it is an important one if we are to maintain a healthy economy.
I would really like to give this job to crafters too and allow crafters to make a profit from cleaning, polishing and repairing specific types of armour depending on their crafting skills plus their clothing and weapons and have a higher priced NPC option available to do an average/basic job if no crafter is available but the money sink is very important."
The money sink is an important one because without the value of platinum (or whatever currency Pantheon decides to use) gets devalued. I knew people in EverQuest with stupid amounts of money and they had nothing to spend it on because they got all of their gear from raids which were NO DROP and thus couldn't be sold. So you end up with players who have millions of plat and nothing to spend it on. It makes having money totally pointless. This is why crafters are so important because they take materials that people either farm or buy and turn them into items which can be bought and should provide at least one upgrade for anyone even if you are a raider.
Ah. I didn't realise Brad had said he doesn't want item destruction in the game. Well that makes this thread pretty pointless then :).
Cromulent said:Kilsin said:To be very clear, Brad has said that he doesn't want it in Pantheon, we do not have it in currently, but even if it did make it in after testing if we felt there was a need for it, it isn't as bad as people make it out to be, I will copy my post from another thread below for reasons behind why I say that but people try to compare item degradation fitting into EQ or other games that implemented it poorly and that doesn't do the system justice at all.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes had item degradation and it was no trouble at all, had little effect on the player base, was a measly annoyance every now, cost hardly anything to repair, allows crafters to make repair kits that you can stack and take with you but played a much bigger overall role in the economy and health of the game, it was no big deal.
Previous Post:
"Just to flip the coin again and jump in here, while item degradation may be an annoyance, it is a vital part of keeping the economy healthy as it is a money sink that is very important in keeping the money cycling. Yes there are many ways to do this and I believe there should be many ways implemented but I also strongly agree with item degradation and repair costs being implemented to help maintain a healthy economy which will promote spending/earning especially since we may not be able to launch with a crafting, harvesting or tradeskill sphere.If adventurers head out and slaughter beasts for a few hours, whether it's overland or down in the depths of a dungeon, they should have to come back and polish their armour, repair dings and dents, sharpen their weapons, wash their bloody clothes and buff their shields.
They should not come back after all that fighting absolutely sparkling clean and shiny just as they left without any consequences at all!
It may not be a fun mechanic but it is an important one if we are to maintain a healthy economy.
I would really like to give this job to crafters too and allow crafters to make a profit from cleaning, polishing and repairing specific types of armour depending on their crafting skills plus their clothing and weapons and have a higher priced NPC option available to do an average/basic job if no crafter is available but the money sink is very important."The money sink is an important one because without the value of platinum (or whatever currency Pantheon decides to use) gets devalued. I knew people in EverQuest with stupid amounts of money and they had nothing to spend it on because they got all of their gear from raids which were NO DROP and thus couldn't be sold. So you end up with players who have millions of plat and nothing to spend it on. It makes having money totally pointless. This is why crafters are so important because they take materials that people either farm or buy and turn them into items which can be bought and should provide at least one upgrade for anyone even if you are a raider.
Ah. I didn't realise Brad had said he doesn't want item destruction in the game. Well that makes this thread pretty pointless then :).
Yeah, Brad has commented in previous threads that he doesn't want it, the team is divided, I personally like it but we will do what is best for the game and its health/economy after testing it thoroughly. ;)
I know it many games the items degrade and break, but you can repair it. Which may cost more money to fully repair a broken piece of armor than just repairing the tiny dents and what nots. But I would be really sad if I let my gear break, had it repaired, and it lost its value after it broke and got repaired.
There's no issue for me if it breaks or decays. Games have done well with things like that. I just don't want my gear to break so I'm forced to give my money to a crafter to make another one. Or save a bunch of loot drops in my bank with the possibility of a certain piece of armor breaking.
The great thing is; the game isn't out yet. Not even to test. So when it first gets released to the public in phases, the first two phases are huge on testing and receiving feedback (Pre-Alpha and Alpha). We will then be able to tell them as a community what we really dislike about the game or maybe what should be twinked. If you have 90% of the community complaining about weapons and armor going POOF, they would then probably want to remove that out of the game entirely. I think the same goes for a lot of other parts of the game, bugs, other mechanics we like or dislike or maybe just need a bit of a touch-up, etc.
It's good to talk about though. Some people's ideas may be so well thought out and written on a forum post that they may look into adding it into the game.
Degrading items are something you have to build your entire MMO around. If the game is not built from the ground up with that in mind, its better its not added to the game as an after thought. Just my two cents, feel free to give me change =-)
Nanfoodle said:Degrading items are something you have to build your entire MMO around. If the game is not built from the ground up with that in mind, its better its not added to the game as an after thought. Just my two cents, feel free to give me change =-)
Exactly. It has to be designed so that item degredation is not a penalty. Penalties are consequences for bad decisions or mistakes. You shouldn't penalize players for defeating monsters.
With EVE Online, destruction of everything (even multi-km long stations alliances uses a bases) is the fundamental basis of the game because the game is PVP first, PVE second.
Commissions-
Make a trade like window, give crafters a sub set of abilities they can learn/raid for/ acquire, these abilities can be offered in the window and applied to a base weapon. The price, mats etc can all be haggled for in this window. Offer mats? awesome, drag em in. Settle on a price, agree to the terms. The item will now be available to be worked on BY the crafter. Maybe hes as good as he says? Maybe he fails? If he fails he owes back whatever the terms are. 3000 gold paid to upgrade? goes back, mats offered? goes back.
Now to the crux of how it helps your argument. The commission abilites are custom ordered, custom negotiated abilities that ONLY apply to the orderer. This allows him to sell the weapon back later as the base model. Without the commission additions.
Benefits - It adds to weapon/armor life, I personally hate falling in love with a weapon and then finding out that I am out leveling it. I can commission and stretch its use, or modify its abilities etc etc. Heck, with the dynamic weather and exposure mechanics maybe I add flaming going into an Ice area. Something to that effect.
It gives crafters more things to collect, certain raid level commission boosts might separate the master crafters from the run of the mill commissioners.
It allows for repeat business, hell maybe on the same weapon from its new owner, but it allows no degredation and people are free to resell their property.
It gives a risk/reward sense to complex crafting, you have to be sure you can pull off the crafting needed or run the risk of having to give back the materials and mats (I would put in as part of the commissions trade window, a sub flag that in the event of failure your incmoing gold splits to the aggrieved party by some percent until the debt is paid off.
This is of course pending a nice crafting system like, VG had, somethign with a beautiful in depth crafting game to challenge the players skill.
Practical Example: I have my trusty SSOY straight outta the dungeon, its great, but after a while its aging and struggling. I commission someone. The commission window pops up with his current known abilities. I select the ones we want. We agree on a price (in the window) hey i have some mats, I toss the mats in too. I get my new Flaming Holy Vorpal SSOY. YAY ME! Yay Crafter! Win/win. I level awhile with it longer, I find something more suited. I sell it, it sells as a base SSOY. New owner comes up to crafter......
Just my thoughts. Something like that adds life and doesnt jeopardize hard earned gear.
Vandraad said:Nanfoodle said:Degrading items are something you have to build your entire MMO around. If the game is not built from the ground up with that in mind, its better its not added to the game as an after thought. Just my two cents, feel free to give me change =-)
Exactly. It has to be designed so that item degredation is not a penalty. Penalties are consequences for bad decisions or mistakes. You shouldn't penalize players for defeating monsters.
With EVE Online, destruction of everything (even multi-km long stations alliances uses a bases) is the fundamental basis of the game because the game is PVP first, PVE second.
The degradation I was talking about is the wear and tear that VG had, the items do not fully break or get deleted forever, they merely wear down to 0% and have a stat reducing effect, like for every 10% worn rate you lose 2% stats to a max of say 10% or 20%, enough to make you repair your gear before a big dungeon run or raid but not enough to make you useless for a group or stop you from being out in the middle of nowhere without a repair kit, it will just make it a bit more challenging and make you think and prepare for big battles or carry adequate repair kits on you.
It is not to be thought of as a punishment though, it is a consequence of your actions and a vital part of keeping the economy ticking over while promoting interactions and giving crafting some nice attention, it has a lot more benefits than it does negatives, that is for sure, especially if implemented properly.
If you don't engage in combat that damages your gear then you won't need to repair, if you do, then think of it as a knight or warrior needing to mend, polish, buff their armour and weapons after combat, it is immersive, realistic and can be manipulated to better suit our game and have a low impact on players while still contributing to a healthy game economy and promoting interactions and crafting.
The game economy is so much more important than people think it is, it can make or break entire games and system like this can have massive impacts on helping it survive while benefiting other areas of the game and again, for minimal impact on the players other than a few measly coppers and remembering to take a repair kit or two out when they plan to raid or hit a dungeon or camp up for long periods of time.
Good to see you post this Kilsin, as I also feel that everything needs to degrage to some extent at least or the economy will be in bad shape.
I also feel that some more dangerous foes should damage armor and weapons more than a mundane opponent would.
I'm strongly against repair NPC and feel that all repairs should be done through crafting by players.
Repairs will help prevent people from just zerging something to kill it or just banging heads against a raid mob til you get a lucky run.
Thanks,
Kiz~