Item Durability & Decay
I think an interesting thing to consider in regards to gear and to keep crafting relevant is to have items that decay over time and eventually become useless and therefore need to be replaced, this is with the assumption that items will have some type of durability stat that decreases with use. I am sure the initial response in regards to this suggestion will be that of disliking the idea. Let me explain.
Every item that has durability can be repaired but overtime the durability total will decrease, meaning that at some point the durability total will eventually reach zero if continually used to the point of uselessness.
Distressed Bob,"But wait... you mean that my sword, my Holy Defender +5 will eventually become useless. No this idea sucks!"
If that was the case it would suck. What I propose is that through crafting skills you will be able to repair the durability to increase it's longevity but overtime the durabilty maximum decreases to zero. When the item in question gets close to being useless or becomes useless you can extract the essence of that item to be transferred into a new item.
With the example of the Holy Defender +5, you would need to engage a weaponsmith to create a new vessel for the Holy Defender essence. The required vessel is made and is imbued with the essence, thereby keeping your precious phat lewt from your raid.
I'm sure you can see here what this would do. It would continue to create demand for crafting skills and keep them important even if you have gained gear that is better than the best crafted items. Crafting of weapons, armour, jewellery, rings etc could all have a continued demand even when you have the best gear in the game whether it is a crafted and enchanted item or a drop from a raid.
Happy to hear thoughts on this
*salute*
Disclaimer: Put this in the General Discussion thread, I know it touches on crafting, but think it's still 'general' enough to be here. :-)
~~~ <()> ~~~
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
I've played games both with and without item decay and item repair, as well as the decreasing item durability outlined above.
Shroud of the Avatar is struggling with this right now. They have a completely random (and very punitive) crafting mechanic whereby at every stage of enchantment, there is a significant (and unavoidable) chance the item will be destroyed. Due to this, coupled with extraordinarily tedious and again, punitive resource gathering (to the tune of many hours required per single item) the crafter is faced with the following conundrum:
Do I risk making this item better, only to lose up to 8 hours of effort in a single click? And, if I do manage to get an item enchanted once, do I continue to risk it's destruction by enchanting it further?
Succintly, the answer is: No. ~No-one does. Extremely large guilds with dozens of gatherers all feeding a single crafter have managed to produce some interesting (if random) items.
So what does this have to do with item durability, decay and repair? Here's the reality: No-one wants to buy anything. Because they know if they spend 10k or 20k gold on an item, it will be worse thorughout it's entire lifetime, due to an incredibly fast decay system. I can, trivially, destroy any weapon in a matter of a few hours of non-stop combat. The devs know. Working as intended.
Which would be fine, if it was easy to get resources. It's not. It would also be fine if you could choose the enchantments. You can't. It would also be fine if you didn't destroy the item on enchanting attempts. Nope!
So what they've managed to do is create a perfect storm of pain, whereby the economy is pretty much stalled because of all these cause and effects. Players have explained in great detail how to address these issues to stimulate the economy and crafting. Allow repair kits to be produced by players inexpensively. Allow very skilled and specialized crafters to raise max durability. Change max durability hits to only happen at death, rather than through use. Nope, nope, nope. There's other issues at play, but that's enough about that for now.
Here's my guidelines regarding item durability, decay, and repair.
- You always get more gold sink value out of allowing a player to repair an item indefinitely, rather than just once or less than 10 times. (far more than item destruction! )
- Tying max durability loss to death is a great mechanic. Players find it just (as in justice) rather than a gimmick.
- There's nothing wrong with rapid/faster current durability reduction of an item, even a corresponding increase due to an items value or enchantment, gear vs. player level disparity, or Environment Damage, provided you permit field repairs of that current durability loss.
- max durability restoration or repair needs to be handled with care.
A few other items of note on this subject, in my narrow selfish biased opinion; In games where time is the greatest currency, any perception of a cheapening, devalue, or loss of their time investment is what players despise. It will be very tempting to create or offer items that are immune to max durability loss. Again, proceed with caution. If everyone is on the same playing field, then the world is perceived as just (as in justice), yet if someone can play indefinitely after acquiring a full set of "decay immune" gear, what you've done is bad in two ways: 1) you've bypassed a primary economic mechanic (gold sink) and 2) you've eliminated gear choice, because that's all anyone will use, practically.
About Environments. If cold, heat, acid, and other damage types are going to be part of Atmosphere's in Environments, then gear resistant to those effects will be seen as desirable. Allowing crafters to make consumable temporary resistance augments, by damage type, for gear would be a rewarding game loop, imho.
It may be desirable to tie current durability loss RATES to level disparity between the gear level and the player level. This means, if you're using gear that is higher or lower level than you, it takes more or less damage. There's a variety of reasons why this might be desirable from a design perspective, depending on the emergent behavior you want to encourage. Just pointing it out as a powerful option.
After reading and responding to several topics like this, without personal and procedural loot, as well as plentiful and replacement enchantments, augments, or other mechanics, ... well, let's just say I think there's a big piece we're missing, because the dots aren't connecting, design-wise. :) Based on the public information available today, I don't think Pantheon is going to be as "loot dry" as EQ or other similar games were, especially in light of the flagship "Player versus ENVIRONMENT" feature.
There was a discussion about this a while back in the crafting section of the forums. There's a quote in that thread from Aradune stating there are no plans for item decay in Pantheon.
No to decay which results in needing to replace an item, yes to item degredation/repair. Although not the only solution for maintaining a healthy in-game economy, repair mechanics are certainly a good part of a developed system which need to be in place to help mitigate inflation. It's not perfect, but it does help and it makes sense from an immersion standpoint. Can even call it "repair and maintenance" costs vs just straight repair. Or... two separate systems? Particularly for high-end rare gear. Finding creative money-sinks is always beneficial.
Item durability and repair is something that should be in the game for sure. One of the biggest struggles in an MMO is after about 5 years the amount of money in circulation is extremly inflated. This is due to not haveing enough money sinks. Gear repair is defenatly a good one. Any method to take money out of circulation is a good thing.
On launch day there is ZERO money in circulation. Everyday this grows and it never stops to the point where the inflation is soooo bad, new players are at an extrme disadvantage. To fix this new problem, they make it so newbie creatures drop more coin. EQ did it. Go to the yard outside Qeynos, you will make 10 plat in an hour where at release it took like 2 months to get 10 plat. The problem gets worse and worse. without money sinks.
Sorry for the slight derailment. :(
Elrandir said:There was a discussion about this a while back in the crafting section of the forums. There's a quote in that thread from Aradune stating there are no plans for item decay in Pantheon.
Source:
Aradune said:Quick comment: whatever the specific death penalty turns out to be, I can say now that we're not going with an item system where your items wear down and need to be repaired.
Well that answers that. I'm a bit disappointed, but it's their game to make.
It's unfortunate that such a simple gold sink won't be taken advantage of, but maybe there are more than enough other consumable costs to keep things reasonable? /shrug
Still holding out hope for procedural and personal loot. heheh.
X
I'm disappointed in that too. I have to say item degredation is a great currency sink, an opportunity for player interaction and a way to provide additional forms of gameplay in an MMO beyond adventuring/combat.
In my ideal MMO, I would like to see players setting up shop near a dungeon where they sell their wares, consumables and repair the armor of adventurers.
This is really a missed opportunity, imo.
I can understand why they don't want to go with item wear!
(though, that is not to say I don't like the idea .... for a well implemented system, I *do* like it).
1. From a player's point of view:
While players may not like the idea of their super gear wearing down, if handled well, it can work well. Item wear (repairable in field) should be most 'common' form of wear.. item 'damage' (reduction to max_durability) should be much less common - relegated to 'criticals', 'death blows, 'falling a looong way', 'dragon fire', 'acid baths' etc. Low ammounts of damage should be easily repairable by crafters of suffieicent skill/level. This then plays into crafting. With 'simple' wear and tear being 'topped up' until heading back to town (by the player), this gives the players scope to continue adventuring until the next scheduled pit-stop without being unduly worried by the chance of their sword/armour 'poofing' on them mid-combat.
With careful balance, this can give a boost to crafters, have a slight downward effect on inflation and slowly churn through gear over the period of, say, 2-5 months (weak gear), 3-6 months (medium) and 9-12+ months (powerful). With pantheon's emphasis on having multiple sets of gear for different encounter types - this will extend longevity.
2. From a DEVs point of view :
It creates a fine web of interlinked problems to balance and solve.... which takes effort/time.
Eg: Tanks would be disproportionaly disadvantaged over casters for repair cost
Eg: DEVs have to extend item definitions to include durability etc
Eg: DEVs have to ensure crafting skills have repair skills built into them
So, while It is a nice idea (which I like), I fully unerstand why it is unlikely to be implemented in Pantheon....
... and why the games that use it tend to get it wrong!
My only experience with item durability was Rift, which when the game launched *sort* of had a bit of sting to it since cash was limited at lower levels. It then became something that was just an annoyance. Then came the portable mender bots. I can see that perhaps it could generate some community interaction if only certain crafters could do it, but I think it would lead to unintended consequences. I for one am glad that they aren't doing it. Just my 2c, no offense intended.
Item degradation and repair does not equate to an increase in player interaction. Why? Because why should I pay someone else to repair my stuff when I can do it myself. And if I'm stuck to just 1 type of skill per character then my army of alts will provide the necessary services for me. I might turn to a guildmate to do the work, but why should the guildmate charge me for that when that person has profited handsomly off being in groups with me, raiding with me, etc? He/she will be given the materials for the repair but thats it. I'd never just go to some random person spamming a local chat channel with their services because I refuse to pay for their profit margin. Aaaand before I get flamed, there are many people out there who have the same mindset as me.
Item degradation plays an important role in the economy and can be implemented in a way to promote player interaction while not taking away from the fun, I am also in favour of this and it worked very well in VG but as you can see, Brad has said no, so feel free to explain why you think he is right or wrong in that decision (being respectful to him and everyone else's opinions, of course) :)
Personally I would like to see it implemented similar to VG with NPCs able to repair your gear and weapons for a small fee or give you the option for player crafter to repair it to make it last longer for their own small fee requiring some common mats and maybe enhancements to prolong the life of the armour and restrict or delay the deterioration of the gear allowing you to use it for longer without needing to repair.
There are many ways to implement it without it being a constant hindrance to the players while still stimulating the economy and promoting player interactions.
This isn't a subject that I'm strongly one way or the other, but I'm glad it's been decided (for now anyway) to go without decay. The main reason, and I said this exact point in the other thread awhile back on this subject -- if it's as hard to make money in Pantheon as it was in classic EQ, there's no way I would have been able to constantly pay for repairs. Between other expenses-- food/water, paying for ports, paying for binds, paying for SoWs, etc etc, as a new player I was just happy when I actually saved up enough to buy a full set of banded mail (Iksar SK, so plate was not available to me). Again, I have no idea how easy it will be to make money in Pantheon, or obtain gear, or what the coin drop amounts will be, but if they are similar to EQ, no way would I want to pay for repairs.
Vandraad said:Item degradation and repair does not equate to an increase in player interaction. Why? Because why should I pay someone else to repair my stuff when I can do it myself. And if I'm stuck to just 1 type of skill per character then my army of alts will provide the necessary services for me. I might turn to a guildmate to do the work, but why should the guildmate charge me for that when that person has profited handsomly off being in groups with me, raiding with me, etc? He/she will be given the materials for the repair but thats it. I'd never just go to some random person spamming a local chat channel with their services because I refuse to pay for their profit margin. Aaaand before I get flamed, there are many people out there who have the same mindset as me.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you consider necessity in the equation. Its not always convenient to go back to town, log an alt on, or meet with a guildmate when out in the wild or a dungeon.
So yes, interaction is a likely outcome.
Not having it makes sense considering those at the fore with the most expensive defensive gear get hit more and thus have more repair reqirements and costs needed. It would become unbalanced in that the tank would have lots higher costs after a group adventure due to repairs.
Of course there are ways to solve this, like having gear deterioate over time regardless of uses, or having caster and shooting classes require materials for their spells and projectile weapons (effectively reducing "wear" on wands/staves/bows at a faster rate when dealing damage or healing).
But all that would take a lot of balancing to get right and possibly it's better to find other money sinks.
I'd be interested in hearing more about how it worked in VG as I never played that game. I'm fairly indifferent to item degredation as I'm a tradeskill-oholic and would likely just be repairing everything myself.
The arguments I'm hearing for it are:
1) Plat Sink
If this is the case, there are better solutions. The simplest of them is just to have mobs drop less loot--you get the exact same outcome. But beyond that, I think having expendable tradeskill-made items that boost combat performance is a better solution. You NEED your weapons and armor to go out adventuring, and if you can't adventure, you can't afford to repair your broken gear anyways. However, you don't necessarily need the tradeskill-made spider-venom poison that boosts your dps. By having the expendable items available to those with extra plat to burn, you get the same outcome without jeapordizing the experience of those who don't have the money to spend.
2) Player Interaction
I suppose if balanced just right, this might be possible. That said, if items degrade too quickly, or are too costly to repair--everyone's going to just raise the skills they need to fix their own gear. And if the skill level necessary to fix gear is too high, or requires too much effort to raise--there probably isn't going to be that weapon's smith around when you need him anyways, and that's going to create a whole mess of issues.
I've only seen this system in place in one game (DDO), and it didn't really contribute much there. So I'm a little skeptical but open-minded.
@vjek
It does sound like the implementation in Shroud is lacking. It shouldn't be so difficult to make it painful and enjoyment killing. As you say it's very time consuming to gather the materials needed so the whole process puts it in that space of 'why bother, all that effort doesn't amount to much'.
I do like the idea of tying the max durability loss to death. It makes sense, it's something that has happened due a major failure while playing. If this kind of system was put in place I do not think having a special item feature of immunity to max durablity loss would make sense. As you say, everyone should be on the same playing field.
Thanks for your input.
@Elrandir
Thanks for the link to that thread. I did use the search function before posting but did not find anything with the words I used.
@Sicario & Koreno
At a minimum I would like to see a need to repair items. It makes sense, as gear is used it slowly degrades and it's effectiveness drops. I still like the idea of having to replace an item that has slowly overtime passed it's use by date. Just like a sharp knife your draw at home, it needs to be sharpened from time to time. Eventually the blade will reduce in size and a new knife will need to be purchased. I don't think it needs to be difficult to do, it only needs a simple process.
@Vandraad
You say it does not equate to an increase in player interaction. For you that may be true. Not everyone plays these games the same. Not everyone might be in a large guild that offers their services to their members with this kind of thing. I'm not saying you're alone in your sentiment in regards to this because the situation you outlined will certainly be the case for some, but not all. Oh, and no flamming required, thanks for your input.
@Kilsin
I played Vanguard for a while, I do agree that there should be npc's to repair your items. After all if there are no players around with the relevant skills you wouldn't want to be hindered in your travels due to that. I certainly wouldn't want a system implemented that was too restrictive. The idea of player made items that help with durability protection is something that I'd like to see if there was a durability system.
@AgentGenX
I too wouldnt want this kind of system in place if it was going to bleed you dry of your wealth every second day. But if it was done in a well balanced and thoughtful manner which made sense and didn't overly reduce your wealth to a few coppers, would you be for this kind of thing?
@Jody
I agree, it needs to be fair across all classes and situations. It would certainly be unfair for the tanks to only have to foot the repair bill. As I was reading your first paragraph I was thinking of ways to balance it out, your next paragraph pretty much summed up what my response would've been. I will add one other thought, what of coloured mana? If I recall correctly to use the coloured mana you need an appropriate vessel to store the specific mana types/colours. Those vessels could degrade overtime as well and require maintenance.
Thanks everyone for the input, certainly a lot to consider. But as has been shown it appears Brad has said there isn't going to be any item durability loss. Like some here I am a little disappointed that it isn't going to be implemented. But I can live with that :-)
The reason I think it should be in Pantheon is a simple reason, it makes sense that items degrade with use. And based on what I have read and the direction that Pantheon is going in I would've thought if done correctly would fit well into the fabric of Pantheon.
Item Essences
In my OP I brought up the idea of being able to take the essence of an item and then imbue a new item with that essense thereby keeping your precious items abilities and benefits. I would not want anyone to permanently lose an item they fought hard and long for. No one would like that. This idea gave me another thought and relates to another thread that has been active. Gear appearance.
Having the ability to remove the essence from your special gear and then imbuing a new item with it could allow players to modifty their appearance without needing an appearance tab. It could be another thing that requires some money spent through npc's and/or players to do this.
I know there is a strong contingent here that is against appearance adjustment because the gear appearance you receive needs to mean something. When you see player X run by with his Two Handed Maul of Titan Tripping you would know that player X had been over to certain location and fought some hard battles. So this is just a thought as I'm still on the fence regarding appearance adjustment. I think I'm mostly against an appearance tab, as long as the gear in the game is designed well and makes sense. But I'll stop further appearance discussion on my part as the other thread is doing well enough.
*salute*
~~~ <()> ~~~
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
There is no reasons why tanks have to pay any more in repairs than anyone else. They just have to code it so that all actions affect durability rather than just getting hit. Each cast, each ability, or any other action in a combat situation could be balanced to damage all armor equally. You don't even necessarily need to have death damage your equipment, so people like pullers or tanks wouldn't be more prone to repair.
In that it adds to the reality/immersion of the game and that it could possibly encourage player interaction, I am for item degradation. However, using this as a cash sink will not have any real affect on the player economy in the long run.
Question: Will there be items that are immune to degradation? What about Epic weapons? Other very difficult to acquire items?
I agree with the comment about the difficulties in implimenting it to make it more fair to tanks. However, I still retain my opinion that it is needed for many reason.
The easiest way to solve that is change the trigger of applying degrigation. In past MMOs, armor degraded as you took physical damage and weapons degraded as you hit things. This is what cause the tanks to have repair more often than afveryone else. My proposal would be to apply the degrigation as you gain experience. Something like .1% of experience received would be applied to item degrigation. You would also not apply any degrigation from death. Because in groups and raids tanks die alot more. This way, no matter your class, everyone would be on an even playing field as far as item repairs go.
I hear 2 main reasons here. Money sink and give craftsmen purpose. But those 2 are at odds.
It's not a money sink if you just pass it to the craftsmen for repairs.
In the end, item degradation hurts the casual players the most. There are many who don't make much coin, don't buy/sell/trade for heavy profits often, and often go through the entire life of the game, just getting buy. Food and water purchases are already a regular expense, add item degradation, and you hurt the little guy, while the raiders and heavy players who can make tons of coin and loot at rates many can't only find those expenses annoying, but hardly a burden.
I have probably handed down more equipment for free than I ever sold in the tunnel.
Fulton said:I hear 2 main reasons here. Money sink and give craftsmen purpose. But those 2 are at odds.
It's not a money sink if you just pass it to the craftsmen for repairs
Exactly.... Ive said this before but I guess a lot of people do not read every reply. It can only be a money sink if the money is removed from circulation. Meaning is has to be given to an NPC.