I just strated playing on the EQ Agnarr progression server.
In one day, masses of players were level 40 and Phinigel (raid mob) was killed. Now, players obviously know what to do, so it will be faster this time around but still. I think this race to the top is toxic to the virtual world's culture.
It got me thinking:
Typically, we get XP from killing things and completing quests.
I think there should be a combination formula, requiring some amount of time. Compare a player who has been in the game world for 4 years but does tradeskilling, exploring etc. They know all abot the world. Now, a new player comes along and dings a higher level than them in 4 weeks by killing tons of stuff. That seems silly.
I think it should be a tiny bit balanced. Maybe 90% of your XP comes from killing stuff and questing but maybe 10% comes from simply existing and aging.
Also, those ultra slow players would progress (at a very slow pace) just by living in the world.
fazool said:I just strated playing on the EQ Agnarr progression server.
In one day, masses of players were level 40 and Phinigel (raid mob) was killed. Now, players obviously know what to do, so it will be faster this time around but still. I think this race to the top is toxic to the virtual world's culture.
It got me thinking:
Typically, we get XP from killing things and completing quests.
I think there should be a combination formula, requiring some amount of time. Compare a player who has been in the game world for 4 years but does tradeskilling, exploring etc. They know all abot the world. Now, a new player comes along and dings a higher level than them in 4 weeks by killing tons of stuff. That seems silly.
I think it should be a tiny bit balanced. Maybe 90% of your XP comes from killing stuff and questing but maybe 10% comes from simply existing and aging.
Also, those ultra slow players would progress (at a very slow pace) just by living in the world.
That certainly makes sense. After all in real life you gain experience simply by learning and experiencing things so I can see how that would work in the real world. Plus if someone was purely dedicated to some other part of the game they might struggle to level up their character at the same time. So anything that helps them would be good. Obviously people want to kill things to level up but perhaps based on your characters /played time you might get an XP bonus that grows slowly with the length of time you have played your character so people who are not always grinding XP can still keep up with those that are.
Yeah I like that idea. Sounds good to me.
We have discussed this before my friend, we can't and won't stop people from playing the way they like, just because they want to race to max level doesn;t mean they have any impact or effect on your gameplay or experience, so why should we try to stop them? They pay the same subscription and have the same access to the game and same options s you but they choose to play faster and race, while you may wish to play slower, read the lore, enjoy the world and progress at your own pace, you don;t affect each other though, if anything, you should want these folks to blow past you and not be restrained and forced to play at a slower pace against their will or else they will express their dislike for that in other ways that may affect your gameplay.
Either way, it isn't a problem and I am not sure why other people get upset by it, just ignore their playstyle and enjoy your own and then you can both exist in a fantasy world together without having any impact on each other :)
Plus, we won't have a huge amount of quests so we can't gate or bottle neck people with experience on them or give out huge amounts, so while I appreciate the idea I am not sure it would work properly in our game.
Other games that use bonus's for just standing there, i turn those settings off and resort back to normal MMO style XP gains.
It does not seem normal to gain xp without doing something, otherwise we have everyone sitting there AFKing all the time.
(and or macroing skills) While they are at work.
Seems fair?
Kilsin said:As one that does not level fast, am totally confused by the rush to "End Game" (if you like a game why would you want to get to the end...makes no sence) I think I can shed some light on " why other people get upset by it". It is a bit intimidating to log in and find the guy you were grouped with the day before now 5 levels above you. Or being level 10 and finding the guy on your friends list that you grouped with at level 3 is now level 50. For me it's no big deal, the most fun I gave is exploring, questing, helping others in the game.... when I am 25 don't be suprised to find me in a lvl 15 zone helping with corpse run's , or someplace offering free ports. My play style would benifit a lot by such a mechanic..... but why? It would only serve to aliviate that little feeling in the back of my head and others minds that "I'm doing it wrong" becouse I'm not leveling fast enough... but the question is fast enough for who... for ME I'm having fun, doing what I like, enjoying this alternate reality.We have discussed this before my friend, we can't and won't stop people from playing the way they like, just because they want to race to max level doesn;t mean they have any impact or effect on your gameplay or experience, so why should we try to stop them? They pay the same subscription and have the same access to the game and same options s you but they choose to play faster and race, while you may wish to play slower, read the lore, enjoy the world and progress at your own pace, you don;t affect each other though, if anything, you should want these folks to blow past you and not be restrained and forced to play at a slower pace against their will or else they will express their dislike for that in other ways that may affect your gameplay.
Either way, it isn't a problem and I am not sure why other people get upset by it, just ignore their playstyle and enjoy your own and then you can both exist in a fantasy world together without having any impact on each other :)Plus, we won't have a huge amount of quests so we can't gate or bottle neck people with experience on them or give out huge amounts, so while I appreciate the idea I am not sure it would work properly in our game.
But there is still that little "left behind" feeling this play style can give... and always other players seeming to feel sorry for you that you "can't" keep up and don't comprehend that you have no interest in keeping up.
I would not like to see any mechanic in Pantheon that aids in speeding up leveling for anybody or any play style... maybe one that slows others down, but that's for another thread.
Zorkon:
The rush to the end game thing is because generally at cap of any game, even in horizontally progressed ones, you have larger relative power compared to the majority of content at cap.
Or just because racing to cap so you can say "I got here first" pumps you full of adrenaline.
That feeling you get when you bravely explore uncharted waters is the same I get when I hit cap before anyone else in my class.
We are chasing the same dragon in the virtual world, just using different avenues to achieve the surreal feeling of conquest.
Different strokes different folks, as long as you are having fun, does it really matter if I hit cap after a week or two or a month or whatever? Not really, but the rush to cap, is priceless. Atleast for me.
Sunmistress said:I understand, and it's simply a differance in play styles. My play style comes with an occasional feeling of being left behind.Zorkon:
The rush to the end game thing is because generally at cap of any game, even in horizontally progressed ones, you have larger relative power compared to the majority of content at cap.
Or just because racing to cap so you can say "I got here first" pumps you full of adrenaline.
That feeling you get when you bravely explore uncharted waters is the same I get when I hit cap before anyone else in my class.
We are chasing the same dragon in the virtual world, just using different avenues to achieve the surreal feeling of conquest.
Different strokes different folks, as long as you are having fun, does it really matter if I hit cap after a week or two or a month or whatever? Not really, but the rush to cap, is priceless. Atleast for me.
It's just the way it is, it's not something you should feel bad about nor the Devs should try to fix. We "slow levelers" just need to get over it.
I think its mostly social oriented, and depends on playstyle and shedule. However there is a hidden assumption that is not often stated.
If you group with a person one day and you are the same level and it was good, then the next week they are 5 levels higher, that does not mean they are a better player- even though you cannot group with them anymore because of their higher level. Likewise those that hit the raid targets first, are not necessarily good players. The term "Zerg" and the disdain for it, comes from this. Likewise PL'd players in top end guilds- when in PuG's on non-raid times found to be lacking in understadning of their spells or skills and that noted and reputation quietly assesed. Additionally, if you have not leveled as fast as that friend- this does not imply that you are a poorer player, although this might be the initial self assesment.
It is the social nature of the game, once you find those that fit your playstyle and schedule (and I did) the same great things are accomplished and player-ability obtained. (NO Three groups of 65 can do the Inktuktiz trials! they said- we did. Even though levels were higher and top end guilds were doing end content. We weren't there, but they couldn't be here) .
Its like going away to college or moving to a new town where you have to make a whole new set of friends, but you do! Then the only thing that speerates you from playerability is gear if gear is the end goal (excellent post in another thread on that issue).
1. You can have good gear and still be a poor player, 2. and likewise have lower end gear, but be a good player.
What defines number 2 in gear influenced end games is how rapidly you lose health. You dont die, just come close more often.
What defines number 1 is you do die often but recover quickly (who says the ranger has to take the DT from the Golems?)
I love out of the box ideas, but I don't think a mechanic needs to be introduced to solve this one. Rather, we need to redefine our crude definition of XP. If someone spends 4 years doing a trade skill, they will effectively gain "trade skill XP" which allows them to progress in their work and gain access to new and exciting content. This content will be in the form of new recipes, new required materials, new trade opportunities, market entry, market discovery, market disrupting, ect. On the other hand, "combat XP" allows a player to develop their character's combat abilities. The only design aspect I think that needs to be considered is that if the developers allow us to play as we want and they give us avenues to pursue our own path, each path needs to have enough fun and interesting content.
Ah, but know remember the most important aspect of MMOs, the players and the community. Luckily, most content emerges naturally through player-player interaction in almost every "off the road" path a player chooses to play. The reward a blacksmith experiences when he sells his new "Sword of the Endless Ages", after having collected the rare materials either through adventuring or trading, will be a moment of pure euphoria for him/her. To some, those moments will be more enticing than reaching the last character level resulting from combat XP.
TL;DR
"Character XP" is often crudely interpreted as simply combat/quest XP when it could encompass more aspects of a character. Out-of-combat player paths will be fulfilling thanks to a combination emergent player-player content and inherently designed content.
Sunmistress said:Zorkon:
The rush to the end game thing is because generally at cap of any game, even in horizontally progressed ones, you have larger relative power compared to the majority of content at cap.
Or just because racing to cap so you can say "I got here first" pumps you full of adrenaline.
That feeling you get when you bravely explore uncharted waters is the same I get when I hit cap before anyone else in my class.
We are chasing the same dragon in the virtual world, just using different avenues to achieve the surreal feeling of conquest.
Different strokes different folks, as long as you are having fun, does it really matter if I hit cap after a week or two or a month or whatever? Not really, but the rush to cap, is priceless. Atleast for me.
I think it matters a little bit. If everyone was doing their own thing it wouldn't be a social game. You could set up 100 different level 1 areas with different focuses and watch as the game falls apart, all for the sake of letting everyone do exactly what they want because buying the same subscription gives them the right.
If you bother to play a social game instead of a fully customizable single player one, then you pretty much have to conform to what others are doing at some point so that you can be with them. If there is a more efficient system of trade I will have to use it because only an extremely limited number of people would be willing to barter with me in an old fashioned style. If there was a more efficient form of grouping noone would bother listening to my lfg messages, so I would need to give up on grouping or use the better method. etc etc.
If you don't enjoy those things... you are doing them anyways, or eventually quitting the game out of loneliness. This is why it is so important for VR to find good compromises between different players and VR's vision of Pantheon. When necessary, they will unfortunately have to enforce these compromises.
Lots of games have an issue with low level grouping not that long after they come out. The community divides itself between the fast levelers, the medium fast levelers, and the slow levelers (who are rarely even available for grouping), and it just gets more and more lonely.
As long as you have fun, it doesn't matter. But if having fun requires the social atmosphere in the game, you are suddenly trying to do what several others are doing. And if you don't need the social atmosphere...well.. you have your own opinions but I strongly recommend trying fully moddable Bethesda games to get your exact fix.
P.S. Personally I feel the whole "forcing others to conform to your playstyle is selfish" argument to be silly. Filling the game with options forces people to play in a game filled with options, and those various options more than likely effect the overall game quite a bit. Those who claim they want someone's desired game (Everyone forced to play MY way) to be ignored so that other people can have options to play their way are every bit as selfish. At the end of the day, no matter which side you are on, you are simply asking for the game to turn out YOUR way.
Zorkon said:Kilsin said:As one that does not level fast, am totally confused by the rush to "End Game" (if you like a game why would you want to get to the end...makes no sence) I think I can shed some light on " why other people get upset by it". It is a bit intimidating to log in and find the guy you were grouped with the day before now 5 levels above you. Or being level 10 and finding the guy on your friends list that you grouped with at level 3 is now level 50. For me it's no big deal, the most fun I gave is exploring, questing, helping others in the game.... when I am 25 don't be suprised to find me in a lvl 15 zone helping with corpse run's , or someplace offering free ports. My play style would benifit a lot by such a mechanic..... but why? It would only serve to aliviate that little feeling in the back of my head and others minds that "I'm doing it wrong" becouse I'm not leveling fast enough... but the question is fast enough for who... for ME I'm having fun, doing what I like, enjoying this alternate reality.We have discussed this before my friend, we can't and won't stop people from playing the way they like, just because they want to race to max level doesn;t mean they have any impact or effect on your gameplay or experience, so why should we try to stop them? They pay the same subscription and have the same access to the game and same options s you but they choose to play faster and race, while you may wish to play slower, read the lore, enjoy the world and progress at your own pace, you don;t affect each other though, if anything, you should want these folks to blow past you and not be restrained and forced to play at a slower pace against their will or else they will express their dislike for that in other ways that may affect your gameplay.
Either way, it isn't a problem and I am not sure why other people get upset by it, just ignore their playstyle and enjoy your own and then you can both exist in a fantasy world together without having any impact on each other :)Plus, we won't have a huge amount of quests so we can't gate or bottle neck people with experience on them or give out huge amounts, so while I appreciate the idea I am not sure it would work properly in our game.
But there is still that little "left behind" feeling this play style can give... and always other players seeming to feel sorry for you that you "can't" keep up and don't comprehend that you have no interest in keeping up.
I would not like to see any mechanic in Pantheon that aids in speeding up leveling for anybody or any play style... maybe one that slows others down, but that's for another thread.
Oh, I understand it perfectly my friend, I have been both of those players, a min/max power leveler that hardcore raids and the complete oposite end of the spectrum as a friendly, casual, log in when I feel like it gamer when I was working huge hours and was usually too tired to game much.
The rush to end is a competitive drive to want to be first, be the best, to push yourself and your limits and it is exciting, it's a rush kind of like being a pioneer, you don;t have maps or guides, you find things out first hand before anyone else in the world and have to work thing out yourself as you go, I can saee how others may be intimdated by that but they shouldn't be, it has no impact on them at all, they can play at their own pace without being affected by those players, players who like to stop and smell the flowers should want these players to rush by them and not be hamstrung or forced to hang around or else they will have their experience ruined and be unhappy grouping when forced to slow down.
To them, that would be like forcing the slower folks to speed up and the game forcing them to rush through everything, it would ruin your game experience, so why do it to them or even try to come up with ways to slow them down? Let them enjoy the game their way and you enjoy the game yours, there really isn't an issue here. ;)
fazool said:In one day, masses of players were level 40 and Phinigel (raid mob) was killed. Now, players obviously know what to do, so it will be faster this time around but still. I think this race to the top is toxic to the virtual world's culture.
I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist in Pantheon. Even with knowing the exact way to level, there's no way that you get to level 40 day one in EQ. That they can do it on the progression server shows you how far it has come from the original. Personally, I don't think it's the "race to the top" that's the problem, at least not with this example.
I will not rush to the perceived end-game.
But, I have no personal interest in stopping other from doing so.
That said,
.. the 'journey' can be made to catch the imagination of all but the sternest of hardcore 'rushers'.
All indications show Brad and co intend for just this!
1. A wide range of horizontal progression
Crafting,
Large Zones,
Factions,
Perception/quests,
Questing/Hunting for spell/ability trainers,
Socialising,
Building personal/Guild reputations
2. Having Dungeon/Raid style content from lower levels (say, lev 20)
Introductory Dungeons,
Acclimation gear/infusions
Raids for crafting content
3. 'Replayability'
Race/Class restrictions,
Unique classes,
Progeny options,
Single crafting per character,
Meaningful choices (no take-backsies),
Class Epic Quests
All these are alternatives/distractions awy from 'the single-minded rush for max level'.
If the journey is truly exciting, only a tiny percentage with rush for long! So, let them make their choice!
Evoras, hopes XP gain is tuned for MAX level in 6 months at 48 hours/week.
A decent way to combat this percieved problem without messing anything up in my opinion is to have things in the game that can drop off of anything, but are pretty rare. Common enough so that someone who spends (for example) 8 hours in an area will likely get one. These would have to be effectively no drop, although they wouldn't be items. They could be "You have become better at fighting goblins due to your experience combating them", which gives you a bonus fighting goblins, even at higher levels. This would be another horizontal progression.
They already have one thing like this from their descriptions. The acclimation system has the possibility to allow one to become a little more acclimiated to a climate just by adventuring in that climate. Why not also learn how to fight specific creatures better, or even learn upgrades to an entire ability class (not just a single ability, but all upgrades to that ability).
This doesn't reduce anyone's xp, or give other xp. It doesn't prevent people from power-levelling. It just rewards those that go out and explore.
Many people assume that racing to maximum level is done out of competition, as a challenge, and this is often true.
But there may be a lot more to it.
Take an altoholic for example, and there are many of us. Speed-leveling a first character to maximum level provides resources (money and crafting materials) for a growing family of toonlets to make their lives somewhat easier. And the response to "stop and sniff the roses, you are skipping the best parts of the game" is often "that is what alts are for - they will do everything".
Or take someone that enjoys being an "elder statesman" type helping others and giving advice. Getting to maximum level faster than most provides both the knowledge and the high level that such a role requires.
Personally I plan on taking my time with the first characters - in fact I plan to go awfully darn slowly trying different races and classes over and over. But it wouldn't be illogical or silly to pick a good class and race ahead. But I don't see anything wrong with other people racing to the top - in fact even if it was just a competitive thing I see nothing wrong with it - how does it hurt me?
Kilsin said:
To them, that would be like forcing the slower folks to speed up and the game forcing them to rush through everything, it would ruin your game experience, so why do it to them or even try to come up with ways to slow them down? Let them enjoy the game their way and you enjoy the game yours, there really isn't an issue here. ;)
Very well said.
can't blame the rushing people nor the slower folk
2 dogs fight for a bone,the third runs away with it
The third one being the issue in this case
I do think experience gain is focused too much on killing as i mentioned recently in another topic ,
is it really logical if a player advances combat skills too while leveling up with crafting only,for example?
There are many type of experiences yet these games know one type experience.
It might be worth to think about experience gain when looking at general play-through content (for all types of players)
Will areas be worth a revisit ?also when *endgame is reached? what other stuff is worth it to stay for in an area ? Interesting puzzels or other discoveries that are not instantly obvious?
The way that experience works dictates how players look at the whole play-through experience,somewhat defines what is important to most players
and even changes how players will go about
Looking at other games,I do believe there is an issue that is not just a matter of playstyle
it is not the time to start pointing fingers when the issue is with the setup of the progression systems in these games
pointing fingers will just distract from the real issue
I agree, there should be a time factor that comes into play when determining how much experience you receive, and have suggested it before in a number of threads.
However, modern EQ and especially the progression servers, should not be held out as an example of why we need such a thing. Agnarr is EverQuest in name only. This ham sandwich I'm eating has about as much in common with classic EQ as Agnarr.
When you launch a single server that appeals to hardcores, remove the death penalty, drastically increase the experience rate, add bonus exp through potions and xp weekends, make the game mechanically easier, remove content contestation, increase drop spawn and drop rates, of course everyone hits max level in a week.
Sunmistress said:Zorkon:
The rush to the end game thing is because generally at cap of any game, even in horizontally progressed ones, you have larger relative power compared to the majority of content at cap.
Or just because racing to cap so you can say "I got here first" pumps you full of adrenaline.
That feeling you get when you bravely explore uncharted waters is the same I get when I hit cap before anyone else in my class.
We are chasing the same dragon in the virtual world, just using different avenues to achieve the surreal feeling of conquest.
Different strokes different folks, as long as you are having fun, does it really matter if I hit cap after a week or two or a month or whatever? Not really, but the rush to cap, is priceless. Atleast for me.
One problem I have found over the 20 + years I have played online games is that ppl/guilds that rush to max lvl are also the first ppl to complain there isn't enough content. So you are first, like you said, big deal. Well it IS a big deal to you or you wouldn't want to be first. Either way it's power gamers that usually are the first to leave BECAUSE the game isn't putting out enough new content to keep them happy. While at the same time it is the casual gamer, who makes up the huge majority of most games and those casual gamers are the ones who keep the game going. Also since the squeaky wheel usually gets the oil the game tries to comply with the power gamers wishes while ignoring the casual players needs meaning small upgrades that may make a huge dif for them but not the power gamers. It's a very tough thing to balance and I have been on both ends of that spectrum meaning casual and power gamer.
kelenin said:A decent way to combat this percieved problem without messing anything up in my opinion is to have things in the game that can drop off of anything, but are pretty rare. Common enough so that someone who spends (for example) 8 hours in an area will likely get one. These would have to be effectively no drop, although they wouldn't be items. They could be "You have become better at fighting goblins due to your experience combating them", which gives you a bonus fighting goblins, even at higher levels. This would be another horizontal progression.
Really cool ideas. I would definately like to earn a title and be really good at killing goblins if it's all I do for a while.
However, at base, this sort of system could have several issues:
1. Min/Maxxing: guild leaders requiring a certain title to go on a raid could be flat out annoying if the titlesare hard enough to get to be proud of. Maybe being a super goblin killer could only give a really small benefit or flat out have very little required effect t in group content would fix this issue. So rather than dealing more damage you could just be better at identifying them, getting more xp/base ingredients, or some such.
2. Balance: Unless healers are turned on their heads between now and game start to work like DnD "leaders" and have to hit something for decent damage to provide heals and buffs to allies, healers are simply not going to care about many benefits you could give for killing lots of goblins. This means the offensive classes may have to grind, where the healers don't. Some people tend to dislike things like this. Whether they be the healers who don't get benefits for the same work or offensives who feel everyone should have to work as hard as they. Making the benefits things anyone could enjoy would fix this problem, such as my suggestions previously.
3. The Grind: Anything which requires a grind can be slightly unfair to players who can't play as often. Perhaps adding bonuses to players who can't play often (many of which are suggested in this thread) would help to balance the grind out.
fazool said:I just strated playing on the EQ Agnarr progression server.
In one day, masses of players were level 40 and Phinigel (raid mob) was killed. Now, players obviously know what to do, so it will be faster this time around but still. I think this race to the top is toxic to the virtual world's culture.
It got me thinking:
Typically, we get XP from killing things and completing quests.
I think there should be a combination formula, requiring some amount of time. Compare a player who has been in the game world for 4 years but does tradeskilling, exploring etc. They know all abot the world. Now, a new player comes along and dings a higher level than them in 4 weeks by killing tons of stuff. That seems silly.
I think it should be a tiny bit balanced. Maybe 90% of your XP comes from killing stuff and questing but maybe 10% comes from simply existing and aging.
Also, those ultra slow players would progress (at a very slow pace) just by living in the world.
I'm personally very fond of how XP was handled in Skyrim. You gained experience by doing things that mattered. Yes, killing mobs helped, but only insomuch as you gained additional skill in whatever form of attack you used. If you used a bow, you got better at bows, and that in turn evetually contributed to your characters level. But the skill in bows had a finite limit, and that alone could not advance you beyond a certain character level. (Unless you used the Legendary system, but that's another issue.)
I'd love to see an MMO with Pantheon's core principles explore something akin to this line of thinking, where mega pulls of one mob type for hours on end downed by a single strategy met a ceinling in its benefit. Where you were forced to branch out into other tactics or schools of thought in order to pass certain thresholds.
Regardless of how you attempt to divide up the ways in which you can effectively get XP, an optimal, relatively fast way to do so will always emerge. Severe diminishing returns that puts an effective cap on your ability to level is a great way to get people to not play your game.
Why should I play for 6 more hours today for 1000 XP when I can log in tomorrow and get 7000 XP for the same task(s)?
Maybe we just shouldn't attempt to enforce arbitrary limits on people's ability to get things done within the fundamental rules of the game.
Liav said:Regardless of how you attempt to divide up the ways in which you can effectively get XP, an optimal, relatively fast way to do so will always emerge. Severe diminishing returns that puts an effective cap on your ability to level is a great way to get people to not play your game.
Why should I play for 6 more hours today for 1000 XP when I can log in tomorrow and get 7000 XP for the same task(s)?
Maybe we just shouldn't attempt to enforce arbitrary limits on people's ability to get things done within the fundamental rules of the game.
yup, the same goes for rested XP, it encouragues not playing the game for a period of time, to proggress faster 2-3 days latter, makes no sense, let players play as much as they feel like.