In my experience most tanks generate more aggro than other classes. As long as you play smart and let the tank generate the aggro upfront, then I don't see a problem, unless you have a mob that can negate aggro from time to time. Then all manner of chaos breaks loose.
As a cleric player I've always been accustomed to watching aggro generation right along with the high dps classes. Let the tank build up first while trying to keep him alive is a great balancing act.
A good tank class needs to have something like "Hate!" to generate bonus aggro in the middle of a conflict to help offset the high dps classes that begin to catch up in aggro generated throughout. Or a good dps class needs to have the exact opposite to alieviate aggro buildup during the conflict and they need to use it or pay the price for being so cocky.
torveld said:Don't most games have "lock"? I have known it more as "threat modifers". These are active or passive abilities that add threat to tanks attacks without increasing their dps. Some games allow buffs to reduce the amount of agro generated by dps classes, I feel like agro based buffs are perhaps going too far.
I would prefer if tanks did in the 40-60% dps range if the dps classes were 80-100%
I agree that aggro buffs have gone too far. In Vanguard, most classes could push aggro to a certain player. It has made aggro control an after thought. I want the tank to have to hustle to hold aggro and the dps to always be worried about pulling aggro. Don't care for being able to have a mob on "lock". Aggro control should require effort from both the tank and dps.
Im not sure I really understand where the OP is coming from. I mean all skills/spells should have some "threat weight" But most games I ever played always had abilities like taunt. Aside from not making the tanks feel next to useless....... you could theoretically have them do zero damage and just have them use defensive abilities and spells and various forms of taunts. Though some might think that would not be fun.
As was mentioned before about other MMOs and there "threat" systems. FFXI also had this in the form of enmity. You could even get gear with enmity stats on it. Aside from that All spells and abilities had a enmity value. AoE buffs and heals were probably some of the most high enmity value (a good way for a White Mage or Bard to get into a lot of trouble). But DPS could build up too if they went nuts or the tank wasnt good/under geared. FFXI had 2 types of enmity. 1. Enmity that could be built up over time but would reduce when taking damage. 2. Spike Enmity which could be quite high from certain skills/spells, but would reduce fairly fast over time. A tank would have to try to get and maintain both. And the way these 2 types of enmity worked would sometimes make tanks have to really fight to hold threat. Not to mention fun things like hate reset abilities from bosses lol.
I believe that VR will handle it well however, what i am afraid of is that the warrior class which should be a pure dedicated tank will resemble what the warrior was like in EQ1. The warrior was a second class tank and an sk and pally were usually prefered.
I do understand if a dire lord would be better against certain type of mobs and crusaders would be better in others but the warriors should be a good tank in any situation.
I'd like to see some basic tank skills with a similar comparrison to the examples below (made up numbers obviously)
Amount of threat (agro) from damage skills should match amount of threat from a taunt of the same value. (Eg 20 damage = 20 agro and vice versa)
(Dont nit pick these numbers lol, i just literally threw down stupid numbers for the sake of the example, not much thought in them sorry) Fix them up as you would see fit if you disagree lol) :) Also the point of this is not to say this is what a level 10 should have that is just for the sake of the example...
Tank
Level 10 Taunt = Agro of 20 (no damage) - cool down
Level 10 DD with taunt attached = Damage 10 + extra Agro 10 - small cool down
Level 10 DD only = 10 Damage (8 agro only) no cool down
Level 10 Self Buff (Short term + Strength or somthing like that) Also offers +5 Threat AoE - cool down
This would be compared to a DPS character who has...
Level 10 DD = Damage 20 (No extra threat but still has an agro value of 20) no cool down
Level 10 DD = Damage 30 + debuff - Debuff bumps the threat to 40 or so maybe) - Cool Down
Level 10 DoT = Damage 40 over 4 ticks (built up agro over time of 40)
Level 10 Agro reduction skill no damage = - 5 Threat (AoE?) Cool Down
Obviolusly what is not calculated here is the agro gain from Auto attack weapon damage and is not needed in this example
If both a tank and a DPS character are competing with all their skills and seeing who wins the race.. a DPS should have greater capacity to gain threat faster than a Tank. (As many have said) because of this DPS needs to work with the groups / tanks agro capacity to keep agro on the tank and the fight running smoothly.
Heals should have threat calculated a bit differently as do buff classes... buffing during a fight but before tank gains some agro should result in a whack in the face from a mob and then a tank scrambling to regain agro.
Last point i'd like to add... Tanks shouldn't have immediate "snap" taunt skills, they should all be agro generation throughout the duration of the fight and no one taunt button to rule them all.
You know i read the OP and was like... errrr... someone felt the need to post this in this games forum?????? .. but actually stopping to think about where this issue has come from i thought of the following:
The only reasons that tanks had to increase their damage output was to make them viable in PvP games... PvE and PvP do not mix... in PvE to make ever increasing challenging content, you need a tank with higher and higher effective hps (and aggro generation), healer that can ... heal more and dps that can dps more and cc that is sufficient for the level of difficulty...
PvE is all about division of role, of the party coming together to work within those roles to succeed, but PvP is all about balance.. these 2 things are fundamentally different things, unless of course the PvP is group v group only...
It's why the holy trinity of tank, heals and cc was so vital to a challenging group content and why when trinity is removed, other games just turn into a bland spam fest.
Traiel said:You know i read the OP and was like... errrr... someone felt the need to post this in this games forum?????? .. but actually stopping to think about where this issue has come from i thought of the following:
The only reasons that tanks had to increase their damage output was to make them viable in PvP games... PvE and PvP do not mix... in PvE to make ever increasing challenging content, you need a tank with higher and higher effective hps (and aggro generation), healer that can ... heal more and dps that can dps more and cc that is sufficient for the level of difficulty...
PvE is all about division of role, of the party coming together to work within those roles to succeed, but PvP is all about balance.. these 2 things are fundamentally different things, unless of course the PvP is group v group only...
It's why the holy trinity of tank, heals and cc was so vital to a challenging group content and why when trinity is removed, other games just turn into a bland spam fest.
This. And the dps meters going around that made dps feel like the only thing to do for them is top those meters. With it they lost the ability of working as a group and watching their own dps not to overaggro.
Since Pantheon is not a mixed pvp/pve game and all about group content where working together is goal over "who does the most damage", i don't see a huge problem.
Traiel said:You know i read the OP and was like... errrr... someone felt the need to post this in this games forum?????? .. but actually stopping to think about where this issue has come from i thought of the following:
The only reasons that tanks had to increase their damage output was to make them viable in PvP games... PvE and PvP do not mix... in PvE to make ever increasing challenging content, you need a tank with higher and higher effective hps (and aggro generation), healer that can ... heal more and dps that can dps more and cc that is sufficient for the level of difficulty...
PvE is all about division of role, of the party coming together to work within those roles to succeed, but PvP is all about balance.. these 2 things are fundamentally different things, unless of course the PvP is group v group only...
It's why the holy trinity of tank, heals and cc was so vital to a challenging group content and why when trinity is removed, other games just turn into a bland spam fest.
I love your points and everything but just so you know pantheon is working on a quaternity, and not a Trinity, meaning it is a Tank, Heal, DPS, CC, instead of a Tank, Heal, DPS i know you knew what you meant you just forgot a branch of it and everything but i figured this might help you a little bit.
Tharca said:This. And the dps meters going around that made dps feel like the only thing to do for them is top those meters. With it they lost the ability of working as a group and watching their own dps not to overaggro.
Since Pantheon is not a mixed pvp/pve game and all about group content where working together is goal over "who does the most damage", i don't see a huge problem.
Yep DPS meters made DPS selfcentred individuals... on that, i'd also add that not needing to be group aware - i.e not needing to watch threat, not sufficiently hard content (not including DPS races) made DPS self-centred... and removing CC, and the need for CC made DPS self-centred.
Riahuf22 said:Traiel said:....
It's why the holy trinity of tank, heals and cc was so vital to a challenging group content and why when trinity is removed, other games just turn into a bland spam fest.
I love your points and everything but just so you know pantheon is working on a quaternity, and not a Trinity, meaning it is a Tank, Heal, DPS, CC, instead of a Tank, Heal, DPS i know you knew what you meant you just forgot a branch of it and everything but i figured this might help you a little bit.
Errr i don't think you read my post right... the holy trinity did not include DPS.. DPS always came after to fill the remainding spots after the trinity was filled. I have quoted my original post with that bit in bold. A quaternity is just explicitely stating what the original trinity always implied.
An even better quaternity that would advance this concept would be to have tank/heals/cc/buffer(or debuffer or utility) ---> rest DPS... but that tended to be the choice when making groups in any case.
@ Traiel
I definitely agree with that last point for sure!
In general I think a more complex threat system could make for a more fun and challenging game for the Tanks. Maybe an extra resource to manage? Or various forms of threat gaining abilities that work in conjunction? Nothing insanely complex but better than tank and spank or press these taunt buttons repeatedly.
Call me old fashioned, but they could just NOT give tanks more DPS or unbeatable aggro and the DD can instead be expected to "slow their role" and watch their damage. This idea that DD should by design be able to just go all out and worry about no one but themselves and their damage charts is not only boring combat, but leads to arbitrary enrage timer mechanics, terrible team ethics, and only makes the whole 1-dimensional "cookie-cutter spec and rotations" issue worse.
@kayo
Tottaly aggre, if a DPS goes all out he should suffer the consequences, aka Death. But tanks should still need to play properly to maintain aggro, and a good tank should be able to hold aggro of DPSer's when they're going a bit harder.
>Heres a novel Idea...how about the DPS learn to control their agro? <
Very true and very much part of learning how to play your class in a group. I've been preaching since the early days of MMOs that "a quick nuker is a dead nuker" and I hope it works that way here.
Too often in more "modern" games (the term modern is often used interchangably with crappy, nerfed and degraded on these forums) it is trivial for a tank to hold aggro and the dps can just start nuking all out immediately. I am more often the dps than I am the tank and I don't like that at all - I prefer fights to involve a bit of skill. Modern games the "skill" for a dps is too often running to the right pixel at the right time to beat the preprogrammed fight mechanics. I despise that - and despise may be too mild a word. Skill should involve using one's combat abilities in conjunction with the group and in opposition to the enemy's use of ITS combat abilities.
I am not sure the intend of the original post. But so far in EQ1, EQ2, WOW, Archeage, etc... many other MMO i played. I haven't been able to out dps a DPS Class with a tank when all factos are equal. By that I would say the PLAYER Skill Factor.
So by saying this if an Elite Tank plays and compete a DPS challenge with an Elite Rogue (Assasin, Marauder, Swashbuckler, or which ever name other mmo give to the melee dps class) the only true and honest way a tank can out dps a Melee DPS class when a Player Skill Factor is EQUAL is because the blunt truth "You suck".
The "You suck" piece is mostly address and fix by reading through your class skills one by one, memorizing it and creating the adequate sequences or triggers during battles that the Developer intended for the use of your toon.
The rest on this situation is mostly gossips and in the majority of games I played before, persuade the Developers to make fixes (patches) to classes that in many instance break the games to what was initially intended.
Hopefully, this will not be the case of Pantheon. Please consider that this post was not intended to insult anyone, was simply stating the blunt truth of MMO's today.
Riahuf22 said:Iksar said:I'd like to add that I think aggro adjustments would be pretty cool to fit into the CC/Utility classes. Something like an enchanter making a target seem like a lesser threat via illusions or like a greater threat using the same. Something like Illusory Arms to be cast on the tank so that the mob thinks he is a bigger threat than he really is (but it wouldn't actually give him any more damage/hits).
Let's make aggro management more of a group effort. Tanks can tank/taunt but still need the group to work together to hold threat against DPS/heals/CC threat (much) more than seen in current MMOs.
Shouldn't tanks have something like this instead of another supporting class? don't get me wrong they can have buffs that essentially give them boost in holding aggro, like dex buffs, haste, str and stuff like this don't get me wrong but making him more threateningly than he actually is should be something the tank himself can do himself or i wouldn't find him much of a tank, imho
What I am saying is more along the lines of getting the group to work together for maximum potential. Sure a tank should have means of actually being a tank on their own, but they shouldn't be able to hold so well on their own that DPS/Healers can just go wild. I think it should be something closer to DPS/Healers have to hold back to doing 60-70% of their max potential unless they work together with the tank in whatever meaningful way to lower their threat or increase that of the tank.
yunke said:I am not sure the intend of the original post. But so far in EQ1, EQ2, WOW, Archeage, etc... many other MMO i played. I haven't been able to out dps a DPS Class with a tank when all factos are equal. By that I would say the PLAYER Skill Factor.
So by saying this if an Elite Tank plays and compete a DPS challenge with an Elite Rogue (Assasin, Marauder, Swashbuckler, or which ever name other mmo give to the melee dps class) the only true and honest way a tank can out dps a Melee DPS class when a Player Skill Factor is EQUAL is because the blunt truth "You suck".
The "You suck" piece is mostly address and fix by reading through your class skills one by one, memorizing it and creating the adequate sequences or triggers during battles that the Developer intended for the use of your toon.
The rest on this situation is mostly gossips and in the majority of games I played before, persuade the Developers to make fixes (patches) to classes that in many instance break the games to what was initially intended.
Hopefully, this will not be the case of Pantheon. Please consider that this post was not intended to insult anyone, was simply stating the blunt truth of MMO's today.
though i can agree with you on most points they were meaning like a warrior will be a tank unlike in wow they can be tank/dual wielding DPS/2hander DPS, if you choose a class you play a specific role and that is basically your biggest concern in the game, you might have smaller uses is certain areas and such but you are mainly going to be a certain role. ie enchanter: CC, Warrior: Tank, though you might be correct there always classes that wil be harder to play than others, there always is and always will be its impossible to prevent this from happening, that doesn't mean they suck as a player they might just be playing the wrong class to preform the desired dps they are looking for, now they could muscle through it and try to master their class or switch to another class and maybe find it easier to play to their liking.
Alic said:I believe that VR will handle it well however, what i am afraid of is that the warrior class which should be a pure dedicated tank will resemble what the warrior was like in EQ1. The warrior was a second class tank and an sk and pally were usually prefered.
I do understand if a dire lord would be better against certain type of mobs and crusaders would be better in others but the warriors should be a good tank in any situation.
Warriors were the best tanks they just didn't cause as much damage as an sk and didn't have snap aggro like the sk/pal so it was a little bit harder to grp with them becuase they could lose aggro pretty easy if you weren't careful
Angrykiz said:Tanks, the core of the holy trinity... but what happens when they start out damaging the dps ?
It seems like this creeps into every holy trinity style of game I've ever played. Eventually tank damage has to increase to hold agro from the dps classes.
This is a vicious cycle that devalues dps classes.
Maybe tanks could have a new stat... for now I'll call it "Lock", this stat would add agro to the abilities of tanks to make up for the extra damage of the dps classes.
Preserving the damage classes so that you actually need them to beat content seems important to me, I'm bored of games where almost any class can deal a lot of dps.
I hope Pantheon really emphasizes the holy trinity +cc instead of just blurring the lines between the classes.
Do you think this matters or is it ok for tanks to do competitive damage ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
Speaking in generalities as I develop non-game software, it is a triviality to have hidden multipliers for various things. For instance, a DPS class may have 1 point of aggro per 1 point of damage done (forgetting all other factors for simplicity) while a tank could be given 2 points of aggro per 1 point of damage done. At that point, a tank can hold aggro by simply doing half the damage plus one of the dps person.
Sevens said:Heres a novel Idea...how about the DPS learn to control their agro? I mean in a group game you MUST learn to play as a group. If your wizzy keeps pulling agro its not because you have a bad tank, you have a bad wizzy and the healers should just let him die. A few rezzes and xp lost and then they might actually learn to play their class. In the old school days (and this is suppose to be an old school game) everyone was responsible for making sure the agro stayed on the tank...and we even did without agro meters, wow imagine that!
Sevens, ive never agreed so hard. Like. I read what you wrote and raised my hand at work and shook it with joy because you 'get it'.
Threat is a group job, not just the tanks job. Ita going to be a big shock to dps and healers that they can pull aggro when they constantly heal or constantly dps and they pull threat and die.
Lets also not forget the lazy tank who doesn't press his or her buttons to keep competative on threat (enabling heals and dps to shine)
-sent via mobile
-Todd
tehtawd said:Sevens, ive never agreed so hard. Like. I read what you wrote and raised my hand at work and shook it with joy because you 'get it'.
Threat is a group job, not just the tanks job. Ita going to be a big shock to dps and healers that they can pull aggro when they constantly heal or constantly dps and they pull threat and die.
Lets also not forget the lazy tank who doesn't press his or her buttons to keep competative on threat (enabling heals and dps to shine)
-sent via mobile
-Todd
Yep, this is all actually pretty key. PUG's are horrible in modern MMO's, because noone cares about the group rhythm, its all about blindly speedrunning through stuff. DPS and heals KNOWING that getting aggro or breaking cc = you get dead, party wipe, or at the very least a disruption to the rhythm --> after the fight healer is going to have to sit + med is huge for getting the group running together, and when the base of the community understand this, you do 2 important things -> 1. get everyone working together and 2. slowing the game down means there is more talking in the downtime - which further builds the community AND that reflects back to increase the community working together.
It can help to create an environment of the old school MMO, and also encourage the community to reach a level of 'professionalism' where the critical mass understand the above, and so those that just want to go in blindly or not care quickly get sorted out by the community through education of the culture of the community, or through ostracism if they refuse to adapt.
Vade said:While it is the job of a Warrior and such to hold aggro it's not a Warrior's job to keep the DPS from doing stupid stuff, like, a Wizard unloading within seconds of contact. The Wizard deserves to have their face ripped off. Or the Rogue who goes backstab happy before the Warrior can blink. etc. Give the Warrior a chance of properly insulting the mob before going overboard.
I'd take that statement a bit further and say it is the job of the warrior to set the pace and direction of the encounter. The tank determines positioning, directs mob movement if/when needed. This isn't to say he's the group/raid leader, but that everything hangs off of what the tank does. So yes, that idiot wizard who just unloades immediately causing the mob to flip around and go after him/her (which then causes all the melee, who were attacking from behind happily, to start dying rapidly from eating eating ripostes and directional AoEs) deserves to die. To have it this way with the tank it does really separate the good players from the bad, from those who can think and adapt and most importantly extrapolate from previous experiences into future events.
You don't need special mechanics or whatever convoluted set of special spell that or ability this. You just need a brain.