Tanks, the core of the holy trinity... but what happens when they start out damaging the dps ?
It seems like this creeps into every holy trinity style of game I've ever played. Eventually tank damage has to increase to hold agro from the dps classes.
This is a vicious cycle that devalues dps classes.
Preserving the damage classes so that you actually need them to beat content seems important to me, I'm bored of games where almost any class can deal a lot of dps.
I hope Pantheon really emphasizes the holy trinity +cc instead of just blurring the lines between the classes.
Do you think this matters or is it ok for tanks to do competitive damage ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
Don't most games have "lock"? I have known it more as "threat modifers". These are active or passive abilities that add threat to tanks attacks without increasing their dps. Some games allow buffs to reduce the amount of agro generated by dps classes, I feel like agro based buffs are perhaps going too far.
I would prefer if tanks did in the 40-60% dps range if the dps classes were 80-100%
Angrykiz said:I hope Pantheon really emphasizes the holy trinity +cc instead of just blurring the lines between the classes.
While I know this isn't the main thrust of your point:
FAQ (5.2) Will pantheon's classes have clear cut roles such as the Holy Trinity...
Pantheon does indeed use a class based system and those classes do fulfill roles especially in group and raid contexts. There will also be opportunities to focus each class on more specific and specialized roles, especially at higher levels. That said, because we feel it’s important that classes fulfill distinct roles, creating interdependence is vital to a fulfilling social and cooperative experience. If everyone is the same, this simply cannot be achieved. Likewise, if every class is absolutely unique, grouping can become overly complicated and, in some cases, certain classes could be less desirable to have in a group than others. To avoid this, Pantheon will use a quaternity system consisting of tank, healer, DPS, and crowd-control.
and I do understand that what you were really asking was ...
How will tanks manage to keep aggro without either having to:
: Increase Tank DPS ever higher (breaking uniqueness of DPS classes)
: Force a self-imposed decrease of output for all DPS classes (devaluing them)
But I think my best starting point in answer is to post the FAQ point above.
This to indicate that classes having unique roles is very important. To increase DPS output of tanks to match that of a 'DPS Class' would make them (the DPS classes) redundant. For this reason, I can only assume they will have other solutions ..... perhaps:
1. 'Taunt' skills that mimic extra damage from the tank
2. Situational CC so the Tank can focus his 'total taunt package + dmg' onto one/few mobs
3. Perhaps transferable 'hate' via E.g. 'ducking away' (Rogue) or 'forget them' (Enchanter).
We can be sure they will not want to blur the lines between Tanks and DPS, and I am confident that they can manage to square this circle. perhaps others may have better ideas than my 'simple 3' that I threw in above. I will admit to only rarely playing tanks, so my knowledge of their specific issues is limited.
Evoras, wonders how Summoner pet aggro will work....
In older MMO's, rather than dealing direct damage to hold enmity, tanks instead had modifiers added to their attacks which add additional threat. But as you've stated, most companies have wandered away from this system, instead puting into place enrage timers and other battle mechanics to make up for that 10% damage difference... which are a quick fix, but still devalues the sense of the class. I wonder which mechanical system VR will utilize to insure balance towards tanks? I know they have been partial to using stances in the past, where you can deal good damage at the expense of defense and vice versa, but never at the same time.
I know in the Dec stream you heard the guy playing the rogue had a specific ability that lowered his "threat" without punishing his dps for if i am correct it also did damage as well, and I'm sure other dps classes might have similair abilities along with tanks having abilities that increased their threat, without causing huge amounts of damage so the roles are staying seperated, but the thing we have to remind ourselves is that even if you are a dps class but don't know the ins and outs of your class and if you play with a tank that is very inclined to their class they could have a possibility of outdpsing you, this is all player IQ at this point which is the turning point of every class, like you could have a ranger who does 70dps lets say but find another maybe only pushing 50 at the same level on a big fight, which goes for every class.
Angrykiz said:I hope Pantheon really emphasizes the holy trinity +cc instead of just blurring the lines between the classes.
I will have to area, that alot of MMO's have just made it so the Tank's do more damage to keep their "aggro" up as high as possible, but I still have never seen a tank out damage a DPS class other than utility DPS, which kinda makes since. Unless you are talking about Monks in some cases out damaging some DPS classes, but monks are a DPS class that just has enough "evade/dodge" rate that most hits won't even hit them, causing them to be excellent tanks.
But we also have to think, Warriors: Master's of their profession (or how it is in most games), master of all weapons and armor, You would think they would output great amount of damage in any melee confrontation. Put any Warrior 1v1 and they should be able to hold their own hence being a "master". Maybe Pantheon will go upon a different route in lore wise for warriors.(Granted in MMO's you still need the other core roles)
Evoras said:Evoras, wonders how Summoner pet aggro will work....
This made me Laugh =)
But shouldn't Pet Aggro work just like everything else does? It output's damage, and it creates hate. If something was beating on me, I'd get angry at it.
Evoras said:Angrykiz said:I hope Pantheon really emphasizes the holy trinity +cc instead of just blurring the lines between the classes.
While I know this isn't the main thrust of your point:
FAQ (5.2) Will pantheon's classes have clear cut roles such as the Holy Trinity...
Pantheon does indeed use a class based system and those classes do fulfill roles especially in group and raid contexts. There will also be opportunities to focus each class on more specific and specialized roles, especially at higher levels. That said, because we feel it’s important that classes fulfill distinct roles, creating interdependence is vital to a fulfilling social and cooperative experience. If everyone is the same, this simply cannot be achieved. Likewise, if every class is absolutely unique, grouping can become overly complicated and, in some cases, certain classes could be less desirable to have in a group than others. To avoid this, Pantheon will use a quaternity system consisting of tank, healer, DPS, and crowd-control.
and I do understand that what you were really asking was ...
How will tanks manage to keep aggro without either having to:
: Increase Tank DPS ever higher (breaking uniqueness of DPS classes)
: Force a self-imposed decrease of output for all DPS classes (devaluing them)But I think my best starting point in answer is to post the FAQ point above.
This to indicate that classes having unique roles is very important. To increase DPS output of tanks to match that of a 'DPS Class' would make them (the DPS classes) redundant. For this reason, I can only assume they will have other solutions ..... perhaps:
1. 'Taunt' skills that mimic extra damage from the tank
2. Situational CC so the Tank can focus his 'total taunt package + dmg' onto one/few mobs
3. Perhaps transferable 'hate' via E.g. 'ducking away' (Rogue) or 'forget them' (Enchanter).We can be sure they will not want to blur the lines between Tanks and DPS, and I am confident that they can manage to square this circle. perhaps others may have better ideas than my 'simple 3' that I threw in above. I will admit to only rarely playing tanks, so my knowledge of their specific issues is limited.
Evoras, wonders how Summoner pet aggro will work....
not trying to get off topic but if the Summoner's pet doesn't act like a secondary tank for them but more like a supporting dps feature they could possibily cuase less aggro, but if you get something like the earth pet that has a large amount of hp and has a way to prevent the target from getting to you, than I'm sorry but in my opinion you might get stuck with the same problem.
I would have assumed that tanks would hold enemies' attention more by taunts and taunt-like abilities than by doing damage.
Tanks should do enough damage to be able to kill mobs on their own (although not be a top soloing class) but distinctly less than dps classes. Referring to "pure" tanks if Pantheon has a hybrid class that can tank somewhat poorly with the trade-off of having dps closer to a dps class that would be fine. Say a class whose niche was tanking open world content (not major bosses) and relatively easy dungeons but otherwise being relegated to the off-tank role.
Wouldn't a solution be to simply give tanks abilites that generate threat, IE: taunts, shouts, special attacks. And in the same idea, give DPS classes abilities that reduce their threat.
If you put a tank and DPS on a mob and they both just hit auto-attack and lean back, the mob would bounce back and forth, but with proper use of abilities, the tank could and should hold agro even though his DPS is lower than the DPS class.
Now your tank has to "play" the class, and it would give "good" tanks a better reputation, also keeps the DPS and hybrid classes relevant, as their damage would be welcome in groups. It really should be that the tank is not there to kill the mob, but is there to hold the mob while the others kill it. Sadly, many games have given tanks too much damage IMHO.
torveld said:Don't most games have "lock"? I have known it more as "threat modifers". These are active or passive abilities that add threat to tanks attacks without increasing their dps. Some games allow buffs to reduce the amount of agro generated by dps classes, I feel like agro based buffs are perhaps going too far.
I would prefer if tanks did in the 40-60% dps range if the dps classes were 80-100%
Yeah, the concept of DPS being the sole way to generate aggro is extremely outdated. It's a very simple and effective solution to have abilities and gear that increase a mob's hate for you without actually increasing the amount of damage you do. In DDO, it was called "Incite" (See: http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Hellstroke_Great_Axe) But the same effect goes by a bunch of other terms in different games.
So if you swing for 50, but have an item or buff that doubles that amount of threat/hate you generate with melee attacks (100), you'll be able to hold aggro over someone that swings for 90. Of course the important difference is that the person that swings for 90 is making more progress toward actually killing the mob.
And as others have said, taunts and such help add to this strategy. Fortunately tankflation is a thing of the distant past.
One of the main contributing factors to tankflation is aDPS contributing too much damage.
This is the dps added by buffs, bard songs, and other damage boosting abililities.
If aDPS can buff your damage by so much then anyone can be boosted to a killing machine.
I'm not sure what to do about this but it can quickly get out of control. I've played games where aDPS accounts for over half a players total dps.
This is a problem that won't show up for a quite a while but if its not taken into consideration early could eventually get out of hand.
Thanks for the great discussion,
Kiz~
Heres a novel Idea...how about the DPS learn to control their agro? I mean in a group game you MUST learn to play as a group. If your wizzy keeps pulling agro its not because you have a bad tank, you have a bad wizzy and the healers should just let him die. A few rezzes and xp lost and then they might actually learn to play their class. In the old school days (and this is suppose to be an old school game) everyone was responsible for making sure the agro stayed on the tank...and we even did without agro meters, wow imagine that!
I'm holding faith that the dev team will hold the distinguishment between class roles, they state it clearly on faq and website.
Being creative they can add certain modifiers and abilities or such to hold this trinity. if we look at older games by Aradune we see that they performed this well.
At same time, I hope and pray for the same. I only play tank classes now days. Currenlly a raid and m+ tank in wow to pass time, and to be quite honest i'm not happy how theyve bllurred tanks into the dps role. *I have no intention on derailing conversation mentioning wow, so please dont.
Seeing this post makes it stand out to me how MMORPG's have regressed over time and how we're on the brink of something special.
I would image Pantheon will loosely follow EQ's template in regard to Warriors. Warriors had access to items which generated aggro, 'enraging blow' procs and such. And class abilities.
While it is the job of a Warrior and such to hold aggro it's not a Warrior's job to keep the DPS from doing stupid stuff, like, a Wizard unloading within seconds of contact. The Wizard deserves to have their face ripped off. Or the Rogue who goes backstab happy before the Warrior can blink. etc. Give the Warrior a chance of properly insulting the mob before going overboard.
For tanks I like the tried and true taunt/hate generation. Skills that generate more threat for a period of time and a direct taunt that forces the mob or mobs to attack the tank regaurdless of anyones amount of threat generated. I love the dps classes having a skill that lowers their threat for a period of time this adds a wonderful dynamic. Say for instance a rogue can hit their most high damage ability and then use the threat reduction skill to lower the threat impact of using that high damage ability. The best fights in my opinion have been when everyone was working together and in tandum with skill rotations to bring the mob down. The tank turns the mobs back to the group or raid while dps does there damage the tank uses interupts to stop the mob from casting a bad spell while primary and secondary healers are keeping the tank and others up, while another class like a bard is buffing the attack and defense of the group and a shaman is slowing the attack rate of the mob. The classes using their skills like playing a beautiful song on the mob is just wonderful.
With that said you can have the best system in place but when class balancing happens and some get buffed and some get nerfed it throws the formula in to wack. So having a solid system for the tank to gain and hold aggro and mitigate damage is very important, but it is also a balancing act. You can't make it so powerful that the rest of the party or raid can just go ham without fear of drawing too much agro and getting killed, and you don;t want to make the encounters trivial because then it will just be boring. This is where the skill component comes in. If your party is playing their respective classes with great skill they should be rewarded for that while others can take the loss and use it as a learning opportunity and increase their skill.
For the tank I love the tradeoff you have high survivabilty but your dps just sucks again encouraging the group aspect of play. That is really what I miss most from old EQ that the current crop of mmo's lack. I can understand trying to cater to a wider base, the more who play the more money the company makes and the more content they can create etc. But I have turned into a solo guy in these mmo's because one I could and two a lot of the time I just did not have the time to do a group run or group up just for exp for a couple hours. Now in my current situation that is not an issue. In Black Desert online I am grouped all the time for anywhere between 2 hours to 14 depending. An mmo where you pretty much have to group to progress brings back that much needed sense of community in the game and revives the social aspect. I really don't want to have to solo anymore but I understand it is important for those who like to or just have an hour to get on and play.
I remember one of the streams I watched they address that a little and say if you just have an hour that day you can still do something meaniingful to progress so it sounds like they are on the ball in addressing this. For me the game is just so much more enjoyable in a group and making friends and gaining a good reputation. For example one of my favorite memories of EQ was on my shaman I had applied to one of the top guilds in the game and I did not meet the requirement yet but I was working on it. The guild leader invited me to a group to do some dungeons and was really impressed with my skill and my good attitude etc. Next time they had a big raid he messaged me and said we need you come on for the raid, and so I showed up and helped in the raid and I did well. After awhile I was invited to the guild, I still had not met the requirement but having played with me and getting to know me and my skill with the class that was enough to overcome the requirement. I had met many others that when they saw I was online they would whisper me and say hey man we could use you and I would say awesome omw. That was a pretty good feeling and for me helped make the game much more enjoyable. I think Pantheon will bring this back and I really look forward to experiencing that again.
Vade kind of hit the nail on the head on what I was going to say, and some others as well.
I think DPS output should factor very little into determining a Warrior's (Paladin, Dire Lord also) ability to gain/control aggro. It’s kind of lazy programming/design and not something a Warrior should be focused on.
As others have stated, I hope (assume) there will be features like taunt, intimidate, etc. that help Warrior’s gain/maintain agro, but they should not be able to simply spam abilities like that and hold agro indefinitely.
As also mentioned, I think a large part of the aggro management equation should be dependent on the other groups members, specifically DPS, actively monitoring their damage output and being mindful of what abilities they are using at what times.
Whether that be choosing not to use a spell/ability that generates a high amount of aggro/hate and sacrificing some DPS in favor of a spell/ability that generates less aggro/hate. Or alternatively as someone said, perhaps a class like a rogue using aggro reduction abilities they are given at the appropriate times.
Of course there is also aggro management/crowd control 101 which should be considered and I hope everyone has learned at this point. That obviously is to /assist the main tank (or whoever is deemed the main assist) and let the crowd control class play their role to help make the Warrior’s (Paladin, Dire Lord) job as easy as possible.
My response to a similar tank thread:
Whatever ends up happening, I would like to see aggro be more of a fight for tanks to maintain. It could involve the CC/Utility classes getting involved with memory blurs or short term buffs on DPS that lower their threat in addition to tanks having some limited aggro generators and a 15 second cooldown "taunt" button. The problem I have with modern MMOs is that tanking is brain dead easy most of the time and you only lose threat very rarely and usually only when under geared with over geared group members. So aside from the limited AoE casting mobs/bosses, the group isn't every really in any threat and 90% of all heals are funneled to the tank.
It's a reason I hope AoE taunts aren't really a big thing in this or are otherwise on a very long cooldown or weak. If mobs break CC and your group has two or three running about chewing into people, it should be a *group* effort to get things in order, not a tank hitting his AoE taunts/abilities and picking it all up while the others calmly fix the situation.
Vade said:Seeing this post makes it stand out to me how MMORPG's have regressed over time and how we're on the brink of something special.
I would image Pantheon will loosely follow EQ's template in regard to Warriors. Warriors had access to items which generated aggro, 'enraging blow' procs and such. And class abilities.
While it is the job of a Warrior and such to hold aggro it's not a Warrior's job to keep the DPS from doing stupid stuff, like, a Wizard unloading within seconds of contact. The Wizard deserves to have their face ripped off. Or the Rogue who goes backstab happy before the Warrior can blink. etc. Give the Warrior a chance of properly insulting the mob before going overboard.
TVade is absolutely right remember a tank pulling and instead of instantly engaging on him you waited for him to say: "I have aggro on a %t ASSIST ME NOW" message. This was the time you engage the target and knowing that throwing a spell or two, backstabbing, maybe throing a discipline or hitting an AA was okay to do because the tank told the group/raid that he had aggro, now with this being said you don't go nuke crazy or constantly hitting backstab and such. you still have to restrain yourself from going over board espeically if it like EQ granted they have aggro procced weps back than but they were still one of the lower aggro generating classes back than as well and it didn't help that their Defensive disc cuased them to do less damage which in turn meant less threat
Iksar said:My response to a similar tank thread:
Whatever ends up happening, I would like to see aggro be more of a fight for tanks to maintain. It could involve the CC/Utility classes getting involved with memory blurs or short term buffs on DPS that lower their threat in addition to tanks having some limited aggro generators and a 15 second cooldown "taunt" button. The problem I have with modern MMOs is that tanking is brain dead easy most of the time and you only lose threat very rarely and usually only when under geared with over geared group members. So aside from the limited AoE casting mobs/bosses, the group isn't every really in any threat and 90% of all heals are funneled to the tank.
It's a reason I hope AoE taunts aren't really a big thing in this or are otherwise on a very long cooldown or weak. If mobs break CC and your group has two or three running about chewing into people, it should be a *group* effort to get things in order, not a tank hitting his AoE taunts/abilities and picking it all up while the others calmly fix the situation.
I believe taunt should be on a 8 second cooldown like EQ and also make it to where it doesn't always succeed like in EQ as well that way it could be 8, 16, 24 seconds or so before the tank actually grabs the targets attention, it is a mechanic that is in place to where anything could go wrong just like in EQ: your MT dies it your turn to tank the target, taunt fails, someone else grabs his attention hopefully someone who can midigate damge like a ranger with WSD (weapon shield discpline), works for 18 seconds give your warrior at least 2 more tries before his disc goes away, ranger turns off attack to make sure he doesn't peel it away from warrior when taunt does work along with all other dps should stop dpsing him to make sure they dont peel it from ranger while warrior is trying to peel it from him, warrior taunts again, it fails, its okay though ranger has it and still not taking any damage, warrior taunt again and he grabs it give him about 5 seconds to maintain aggro from ranger and everyone joins in on the fight.
If tanks did half the damage of a good dps class would it be too hard to balance agro through abilities and items ?
How much damage should aDPS abilities like bard songs and haste add to a tanks dps ?
If a tank uses a 2 hand weapon and goes all out should they be able to deal as much damage as a dps class ?
Just some questions I'm still wondering about,
Thanks,
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:If tanks did half the damage of a good dps class would it be too hard to balance agro through abilities and items ?
In a word, no.
Angrykiz said:How much damage should aDPS abilities like bard songs and haste add to a tanks dps ?
Do you mean as opposed to how much it would add to another class's dps like a rogue? Because it should have the same effect on your whether you're a tank or dps. But it's too early to talk exact numbers.
Angrykiz said:If a tank uses a 2 hand weapon and goes all out should they be able to deal as much damage as a dps class ?
Probably not. But threat modifiers would still apply. It would help kill the mob faster, but the trade off would be that you'd be much more susceptible to taking damage, which is bad cause the tank's not supposed to die.
yes they should be bale to hold aggro with doing signifcantly less damage than a dpser, their "skill kit" should cause more threat than anyone elses "skill kit." plus I've heard of stances and i bet my money that the tanks will have a stance that will increase their threat and prolly will be holding of the their threat generating moves insdie that stance.
And to answer your 2nd point no i do not think a tank will be able to compete in dps compared to a dpser if the players IQ are the same, if they were buffed the same, its the sole purpose of a dpser to do damage, much like a tank to tank and a healer to heal, and a CCer to CC. They have made it abundantly clear that there will very little to maybe not at all merging of roles as in a CCer is be a CCer, and not be a CCer and a dpser, they can do damage don't get me wrong but nothing compared to a dpser. Or a Dpser be a Tank or vise versa they are getting away from that becuase they trying to bring some of the old feeling back from the old days that made grouping so much fun.
Iksar said:My response to a similar tank thread:
Whatever ends up happening, I would like to see aggro be more of a fight for tanks to maintain. It could involve the CC/Utility classes getting involved with memory blurs or short term buffs on DPS that lower their threat in addition to tanks having some limited aggro generators and a 15 second cooldown "taunt" button. The problem I have with modern MMOs is that tanking is brain dead easy most of the time and you only lose threat very rarely and usually only when under geared with over geared group members. So aside from the limited AoE casting mobs/bosses, the group isn't every really in any threat and 90% of all heals are funneled to the tank.
It's a reason I hope AoE taunts aren't really a big thing in this or are otherwise on a very long cooldown or weak. If mobs break CC and your group has two or three running about chewing into people, it should be a *group* effort to get things in order, not a tank hitting his AoE taunts/abilities and picking it all up while the others calmly fix the situation.
I'm in agreement with you.
I don't want tanking in groups to be "brain dead easy" either as seems to be the case in many MMOs these days where threat generation/maintenance is just a matter of spamming 2-3 buttons and not thinking too hard about it after that. At the same time I also don't want it to be a constant struggle/hassle for the tanks to maintain aggro to where it's overly complicated and frustrating for them to do their job to the point where no one wants to play a tank. Where you have groups sitting around ready to go adventure and fight stuff, but lacking a tank to fill out the group because only a small % of the overall playerbase are playing tanks.
I am also really against AoE taunts, unless they are on a long cooldown or minimally effective like you said. Again, the DPS being smart with their damage output and aggro management should be critical to a balanced, well-organized group and the CC should be expected to put in some effort and play a part as well and an overly powerful AoE taunt would diminish the need for the DPS and CC to be smart and play their roles well by making things "brain dead easy".
I'd like to add that I think aggro adjustments would be pretty cool to fit into the CC/Utility classes. Something like an enchanter making a target seem like a lesser threat via illusions or like a greater threat using the same. Something like Illusory Arms to be cast on the tank so that the mob thinks he is a bigger threat than he really is (but it wouldn't actually give him any more damage/hits).
Let's make aggro management more of a group effort. Tanks can tank/taunt but still need the group to work together to hold threat against DPS/heals/CC threat (much) more than seen in current MMOs.
Iksar said:I'd like to add that I think aggro adjustments would be pretty cool to fit into the CC/Utility classes. Something like an enchanter making a target seem like a lesser threat via illusions or like a greater threat using the same. Something like Illusory Arms to be cast on the tank so that the mob thinks he is a bigger threat than he really is (but it wouldn't actually give him any more damage/hits).
Let's make aggro management more of a group effort. Tanks can tank/taunt but still need the group to work together to hold threat against DPS/heals/CC threat (much) more than seen in current MMOs.
Shouldn't tanks have something like this instead of another supporting class? don't get me wrong they can have buffs that essentially give them boost in holding aggro, like dex buffs, haste, str and stuff like this don't get me wrong but making him more threateningly than he actually is should be something the tank himself can do himself or i wouldn't find him much of a tank, imho