Cromulent said:oneADseven said:#1) (First sentence of how the Reputation system is explained in the OP) -- "Rather than having a reputation system where players can vote people up or down, limit it to up-votes only."
I did mention in post about up vote only systems. If a new player comes in with zero up votes then other players will ignore them because they think they are not worth having around.
oneADseven said:#2) (My response to Rogue) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread."
Casting one vote a week seems completely pointless. If you limit it that much you might as well just not bother at all. In another game I play there is a bot that allows players to give positive reputation to another player. There are already pairs of players that just automatically give each other positive reputation every time it refreshes so they both get the most reputation they can. I can see the same thing happening in Pantheon.
oneADseven said:#3) (First response to Xxar) -- "Players wouldn't be able to "smear" anybody as there would be no way to down-vote people. Here is the response I gave to someone else in this thread who shared your concern:"
Just because there is no down vote option it will just go the other way. Anyone without a large amount of positive reputation will be looked down upon because people will think they are a bad player when in reality they might just not be that popular.
oneADseven said:#4) (Second response to Xxar) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread." (I literally requoted the same phrase from #2 to illustrate the point)
My point remains. People with no or low positive ratings will just be looked down upon and maybe even refused the opportunity to group with other players.
oneADseven said:#5) (Response to Iksar) -- "There is obviously a huge disconnect with how people view reputation systems. It seems that many players have a preconceived notion that these systems are ripe for abuse, and that's something I can even agree too. There are, however, several games/communities out there that have created reputation systems that actually work quite well and the big difference is that you don't allow players to down-vote others."
I can't express in words on this forum (well I can but it will probably get me banned) how bad I think any form of reputation system would be for the game. It would turn what should be a nice welcoming and friendly community into one which is all about having the most amount of reputation points. People will say things because they think it'll earn them reputation points (i.e they will be brown nosers). People without high positive reputations will be ignored. They might not be able to join or guilds or get groups. It is just the worst idea I can possibly imagine. We want a community focused game where everyone can have fun and enjoy meeting other people not the cesspool of trying to game the reputation system to look more popular than you really are.
I understand the concern, but couldn't the model behind a reputation system evolve into something more specific that doesen't judge players based on their skill? If the model promotes helping new players, how would that have an impact on someone joining a group? Why can't we change the expectation behind this specific form of reputation to instead recognize someone that literally just enjoys helping new players? As the leader of a hardcore raiding guild, I can tell you that I would never frown upon an application that didn't include a helpful badge, particularly for raiders.
The designation associated with being helpful to new players does not align with the requirements I would have for a raider, so it wouldn't even come up. As far as non-raiders go, I similarly would not frown upon an application that didn't include the badge. If it did contain the badge, however, it could help compliment certain characteristics of the application, particularly if the player is representing themself as someone who would be helpful to new players.
Maybe it is in the title;community goal.When your do poorly as a group,you do poorly.
So if you succeed as a community you gain a reputation boost ,otherwise you gain nothing or even drop some reputation in a big extra bonus pot for the community quest of the next week
Each week there could be an opportunity to gain a reputation boost based on whether you succeed or fail the community quest (partaking with the community)of the week.As mentioned earlier,this could be protecting and growing a tree in the grove of Faerthale together.There would be several ways to fail and only one goal that completes it successful.(in this case a tall ,strong tree at the end of the week)
Cromulent said:oneADseven said:SNIP
I agree that thinking outside the box is a good idea but I fail to see how having a reputation system which is on numerous websites and in a lot of games is thinking outside of the box. If anything thinking of a reputation system is thinking inside the box. It has been used so much in the past. It is hardly an original idea.
Why not think of other ways that don't require a reputation system to help build a friendly and helpful community? I don't see why we need a reputation system at all to do that. I've played many games in the past and none of them had reputation systems and I've met some of the most helpful players imaginable in them.
What we need to do is figure out a way to promote the community and helpfulness without needing to resort to a reputation system at all. That is thinking outside of the box.
Unfortunately I don't have any immediate solutions to that particular problem. I never really had any problems with the community aspect in EQ1. A shared goal of reaching max level and the requirement to work together to get to that goal generally forces people to work well together and to help each other out.
I understand these points as well, and I agree that it isn't an original idea. That's why I also included 8 other ideas in the OP to add flavor and diversity. At the end of the day though, for me, I still think there might be enough potential in a reputation system to possibly salvage something. If it's determined that it absolutely won't work, so be it. I can live without it. It literally wouldn't matter to me either way. But maybe there are others out there who would appreciate having something like this, and having a tiny green star on their profile would be enough incentive to push the envelope in being even more helpful than normal? My gut instinct tells me that there would indeed be people out there who would make a genuine effort to earn a designation like this and if that's the case, I think the conversation should remain open-ended.
If we can change how a system like this is perceived in Pantheon, wouldn't that be thinking outside the box some? It seems pretty clear that many people already have a pre-conceived notion of how it would work and what the results would be. That's inside the box thinking. Changing the perception within the community to the point where it was embraced would be out of the box as far as I'm concerned.
Fluffy said:Maybe it is in the title;community goal.When your do poorly as a group,you do poorly.
So if you succeed as a community you gain a reputation boost ,otherwise you gain nothing or even drop some reputation in a big extra bonus pot for the community quest of the next week
Each week there could be an opportunity to gain a reputation boost based on whether you succeed or fail the community quest (partaking with the community)of the week.As mentioned earlier,this could be protecting and growing a tree in the grove of Faerthale together.There would be several ways to fail and only one goal that completes it successful.(in this case a tall ,strong tree at the end of the week)
Sounds interesting. One thing I really liked about FFXI was how there were 3 major cities in the game that characters could pledge allegiance to, which we'll call city factions for all intents and purposes. Depending on how active the members of each city fation were in a given zone, they could claim that zone for their city. Once a week or so, the world would tally up how many zones were represented by each city, and the city with the most would be able to enjoy some sort of community buff. It wasn't anything major. Certain vendors would appear in the streets that weren't usually there is one example that I recall.
Each week, the city that enjoyed this buff would reset. Unfortunately, from what I can remember, my city very rarely ever won this competition. I did, however, still really enjoy that it was a feature of the game. Even though my city only won it a couple times in the years of playing it, I still appreciated the idea behind it and remember making a genuine effort to help my city faction represent as many zones as possible. The few times we won felt like an awesome underdog story.
oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:#1) (First sentence of how the Reputation system is explained in the OP) -- "Rather than having a reputation system where players can vote people up or down, limit it to up-votes only."
I did mention in post about up vote only systems. If a new player comes in with zero up votes then other players will ignore them because they think they are not worth having around.
oneADseven said:#2) (My response to Rogue) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread."
Casting one vote a week seems completely pointless. If you limit it that much you might as well just not bother at all. In another game I play there is a bot that allows players to give positive reputation to another player. There are already pairs of players that just automatically give each other positive reputation every time it refreshes so they both get the most reputation they can. I can see the same thing happening in Pantheon.
oneADseven said:#3) (First response to Xxar) -- "Players wouldn't be able to "smear" anybody as there would be no way to down-vote people. Here is the response I gave to someone else in this thread who shared your concern:"
Just because there is no down vote option it will just go the other way. Anyone without a large amount of positive reputation will be looked down upon because people will think they are a bad player when in reality they might just not be that popular.
oneADseven said:#4) (Second response to Xxar) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread." (I literally requoted the same phrase from #2 to illustrate the point)
My point remains. People with no or low positive ratings will just be looked down upon and maybe even refused the opportunity to group with other players.
oneADseven said:#5) (Response to Iksar) -- "There is obviously a huge disconnect with how people view reputation systems. It seems that many players have a preconceived notion that these systems are ripe for abuse, and that's something I can even agree too. There are, however, several games/communities out there that have created reputation systems that actually work quite well and the big difference is that you don't allow players to down-vote others."
I can't express in words on this forum (well I can but it will probably get me banned) how bad I think any form of reputation system would be for the game. It would turn what should be a nice welcoming and friendly community into one which is all about having the most amount of reputation points. People will say things because they think it'll earn them reputation points (i.e they will be brown nosers). People without high positive reputations will be ignored. They might not be able to join or guilds or get groups. It is just the worst idea I can possibly imagine. We want a community focused game where everyone can have fun and enjoy meeting other people not the cesspool of trying to game the reputation system to look more popular than you really are.
I understand the concern, but couldn't the model behind a reputation system evolve into something more specific that doesen't judge players based on their skill? If the model promotes helping new players, how would that have an impact on someone joining a group? Why can't we change the expectation behind this specific form of reputation to instead recognize someone that literally just enjoys helping new players? As the leader of a hardcore raiding guild, I can tell you that I would never frown upon an application that didn't include a helpful badge, particularly for raiders.
The designation associated with being helpful to new players does not align with the requirements I would have for a raider, so it wouldn't even come up. As far as non-raiders go, I similarly would not frown upon an application that didn't include the badge. If it did contain the badge, however, it could help compliment certain characteristics of the application, particularly if the player is representing themself as someone who would be helpful to new players.
How about this for an idea then? Instead of players giving out (or taking away) reputation points which I think we can all agree on is open to abuse. How about the game itself giving out reputation points?
So for example say you are in a group with a person who needs to kill a named mob for their epic quest and you succeed the game gives you a reputation point for helping them out. What about if a crafter requires some materials to gain a level and you give that crafter the materials then the game would give you a reputation point. Or perhaps you are a guild officer / leader and you bring some new players on a raid that have never done it before and you succeed the game would give you a reputation point for every new player you brought on the raid.
That way it would be completely impossible to abuse the system because the game itself would be handing out the reputation rather than the players. I think that could work and people with a high reputation would then be looked at with a very positive outlook since everyone would know they had to be extremely helpful in order to get such a high amount of reputation.
Cromulent said:
How about this for an idea then? Instead of players giving out (or taking away) reputation points which I think we can all agree on is open to abuse. How about the game itself giving out reputation points?
So for example say you are in a group with a person who needs to kill a named mob for their epic quest and you succeed the game gives you a reputation point for helping them out. What about if a crafter requires some materials to gain a level and you give that crafter the materials then the game would give you a reputation point. Or perhaps you are a guild officer / leader and you bring some new players on a raid that have never done it before and you succeed the game would give you a reputation point for every new player you brought on the raid.
That way it would be completely impossible to abuse the system because the game itself would be handing out the reputation rather than the players. I think that could work and people with a high reputation would then be looked at with a very positive outlook since everyone would know they had to be extremely helpful in order to get such a high amount of reputation.
Now we're on the same page! These are the kind of ideas that can help push this concept to something that might actually make sense in the game. I think we still need a bit of tweaking to get this right because some of the examples you provided could still be manipulated. If you set a specific parameter, it becomes much easier for someone to game the system and be in the right place at the right time, so to speak. I like the idea behind the game giving out points, but how could it be done in a way so that players couldn't take advantage of it?
How about a system where players can recommend one of their peers every so often, and these recommendations are reviewed by game guides? The game guides would only have so many reputation points that they could award in a given amount of time. If there are 10 guides per server, they would all have access to the same recommendation pool and because of different personalities and whatnot, some recommendations may stick out more to one guide compared to another. I think having the human element involved is key because the recognition would feel so much more important. These points would technically still be awarded by the game in the sense that the people who approve of the recommendations would be hand picked by the community relations team.
oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:#1) (First sentence of how the Reputation system is explained in the OP) -- "Rather than having a reputation system where players can vote people up or down, limit it to up-votes only."
I did mention in post about up vote only systems. If a new player comes in with zero up votes then other players will ignore them because they think they are not worth having around.
oneADseven said:#2) (My response to Rogue) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread."
Casting one vote a week seems completely pointless. If you limit it that much you might as well just not bother at all. In another game I play there is a bot that allows players to give positive reputation to another player. There are already pairs of players that just automatically give each other positive reputation every time it refreshes so they both get the most reputation they can. I can see the same thing happening in Pantheon.
oneADseven said:#3) (First response to Xxar) -- "Players wouldn't be able to "smear" anybody as there would be no way to down-vote people. Here is the response I gave to someone else in this thread who shared your concern:"
Just because there is no down vote option it will just go the other way. Anyone without a large amount of positive reputation will be looked down upon because people will think they are a bad player when in reality they might just not be that popular.
oneADseven said:#4) (Second response to Xxar) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread." (I literally requoted the same phrase from #2 to illustrate the point)
My point remains. People with no or low positive ratings will just be looked down upon and maybe even refused the opportunity to group with other players.
oneADseven said:#5) (Response to Iksar) -- "There is obviously a huge disconnect with how people view reputation systems. It seems that many players have a preconceived notion that these systems are ripe for abuse, and that's something I can even agree too. There are, however, several games/communities out there that have created reputation systems that actually work quite well and the big difference is that you don't allow players to down-vote others."
I can't express in words on this forum (well I can but it will probably get me banned) how bad I think any form of reputation system would be for the game. It would turn what should be a nice welcoming and friendly community into one which is all about having the most amount of reputation points. People will say things because they think it'll earn them reputation points (i.e they will be brown nosers). People without high positive reputations will be ignored. They might not be able to join or guilds or get groups. It is just the worst idea I can possibly imagine. We want a community focused game where everyone can have fun and enjoy meeting other people not the cesspool of trying to game the reputation system to look more popular than you really are.
I understand the concern, but couldn't the model behind a reputation system evolve into something more specific that doesen't judge players based on their skill? If the model promotes helping new players, how would that have an impact on someone joining a group? Why can't we change the expectation behind this specific form of reputation to instead recognize someone that literally just enjoys helping new players? As the leader of a hardcore raiding guild, I can tell you that I would never frown upon an application that didn't include a helpful badge, particularly for raiders.
The designation associated with being helpful to new players does not align with the requirements I would have for a raider, so it wouldn't even come up. As far as non-raiders go, I similarly would not frown upon an application that didn't include the badge. If it did contain the badge, however, it could help compliment certain characteristics of the application, particularly if the player is representing themself as someone who would be helpful to new players.
How about this for an idea then? Instead of players giving out (or taking away) reputation points which I think we can all agree on is open to abuse. How about the game itself giving out reputation points?
So for example say you are in a group with a person who needs to kill a named mob for their epic quest and you succeed the game gives you a reputation point for helping them out. What about if a crafter requires some materials to gain a level and you give that crafter the materials then the game would give you a reputation point. Or perhaps you are a guild officer / leader and you bring some new players on a raid that have never done it before and you succeed the game would give you a reputation point for every new player you brought on the raid.
That way it would be completely impossible to abuse the system because the game itself would be handing out the reputation rather than the players. I think that could work and people with a high reputation would then be looked at with a very positive outlook since everyone would know they had to be extremely helpful in order to get such a high amount of reputation.
Now we're on the same page! These are the kind of ideas that can help push this concept to something that might actually make sense in the game. I think we still need a bit of tweaking to get this right because some of the examples you provided could still be manipulated. If you set a specific parameter, it becomes much easier for someone to game the system and be in the right place at the right time, so to speak. I like the idea behind the game giving out points, but how could it be done in a way so that players couldn't take advantage of it?
How about a system where players can recommend one of their peers every so often, and these recommendations are reviewed by game guides? The game guides would only have so many reputation points that they could award in a given amount of time. If there are 10 guides per server, they would all have access to the same recommendation pool and because of different personalities and whatnot, some recommendations may stick out more to one guide compared to another. I think having the human element involved is key because the recognition would feel so much more important. These points would technically still be awarded by the game in the sense that the people who approve of the recommendations would be hand picked by the community relations team.
You could always add an element of randomness so you didn't always get a reputation point. That way only people who are genuinely interested in being helpful would bother and the people who just want to game the system would just give up as it wouldn't be worth their effort.
I did consider the idea of letting guides award reputation but they will probably be really busy already. I mean they are just volunteers and they want to help people but when they have finished being a guide for the day they probably want to play the game for their own enjoyment. So anything that makes things easier for them is probably a good idea from my perspective. But I guess when the time comes we could ask the guides if they would be willing to take on the extra work.
On a negative note I have heard of corrupt game masters and guides in the past so abuse from that side of things isn't entirely unheard of.
Yeah, I can see how someone might show favortism or whatever but maybe it's possible that game guides are restricted to only being a guide on a server where they don't have an active character? I know several people who are interested in being a game guide and I'll run this idea by them to see how they feel about it. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think something like this would actually be a pretty cool perk for them. It gives a certain amount of influence that I feel might be pretty desirable. I would consider it an honor if I was in that capacity. I have no intention of being a game guide as I know I wouldn't have the time to dedicate to the system that it deserves.
oneADseven said:Yeah, I can see how someone might show favortism or whatever but maybe it's possible that game guides are restricted to only being a guide on a server where they don't have an active character? I know several people who are interested in being a game guide and I'll run this idea by them to see how they feel about it. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think something like this would actually be a pretty cool perk for them. It gives a certain amount of influence that I feel might be pretty desirable. I would consider it an honor if I was in that capacity. I have no intention of being a game guide as I know I wouldn't have the time to dedicate to the system that it deserves.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what is being planned in regards to the whole guide program. None of us know what it is going to involve yet. But I'd be happy for guides to have some useful powers to make it easier on new players to get settled into the game as well as also doing things to help older players as well (maybe helping to resolve conflicts and things like that?).
Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Yeah, I can see how someone might show favortism or whatever but maybe it's possible that game guides are restricted to only being a guide on a server where they don't have an active character? I know several people who are interested in being a game guide and I'll run this idea by them to see how they feel about it. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think something like this would actually be a pretty cool perk for them. It gives a certain amount of influence that I feel might be pretty desirable. I would consider it an honor if I was in that capacity. I have no intention of being a game guide as I know I wouldn't have the time to dedicate to the system that it deserves.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what is being planned in regards to the whole guide program. None of us know what it is going to involve yet. But I'd be happy for guides to have some useful powers to make it easier on new players to get settled into the game as well as also doing things to help older players as well (maybe helping to resolve conflicts and things like that?).
I imagine that something like this could be added to their plate and possibly even provide some structure to what their role can encompass. Let's say on any given week, a guide is expected to review the recommendation pool and make 1 selection. At the end of the week, all guides vote on the top 3 and the players involved (the player being recommended, the player recommending them, and the guide who originally made this story their selection) would have some sort of cover story shared with the server. This provides some flexibility while also maintaining consistency. If it were the GM's deciding which recommendations made the cut, I suppose that would be a different story. I wouldn't want to take away from their time dealing with other issues that require a higher level of authority as that would undermine the value of the system. As far as game guides go, they are there to help boost the morale of the community and directly assist with helping new players and organizing events.
Giving game guides the ability to formally recognize players could be one such event and I think it sounds particularly enticing to try and earn their vote of approval. This provides a sense of randomness because nobody truly knows what level of importance any given guide places on certain behavior types, and also encourages players to think outside the box in regards to what kind of help they offer as well as the beneficiary players in what kind of recommendations they make. This is dynamic interaction, communication, and community involvement. No week should feel the exact same. That sounds fun and exciting to me and could lead to many memorable moments being shared by an entire community as opposed to limiting them to only the players that are directly involved in the experience itself. These honorable mentions, so to speak, could even be saved on a game-wide log that could encourage players from one server to try and replicate what they determined as a cool experience on another server.
oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Yeah, I can see how someone might show favortism or whatever but maybe it's possible that game guides are restricted to only being a guide on a server where they don't have an active character? I know several people who are interested in being a game guide and I'll run this idea by them to see how they feel about it. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think something like this would actually be a pretty cool perk for them. It gives a certain amount of influence that I feel might be pretty desirable. I would consider it an honor if I was in that capacity. I have no intention of being a game guide as I know I wouldn't have the time to dedicate to the system that it deserves.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what is being planned in regards to the whole guide program. None of us know what it is going to involve yet. But I'd be happy for guides to have some useful powers to make it easier on new players to get settled into the game as well as also doing things to help older players as well (maybe helping to resolve conflicts and things like that?).
I imagine that something like this could be added to their plate and possibly even provide some structure to what their role can encompass. Let's say on any given week, a guide is expected to review the recommendation pool and make 1 selection. At the end of the week, all guides vote on the top 3 and the players involved (the player being recommended, the player recommending them, and the guide who originally made this story their selection) would have some sort of cover story shared with the server. This provides some flexibility while also maintaining consistency. If it were the GM's deciding which recommendations made the cut, I suppose that would be a different story. I wouldn't want to take away from their time dealing with other issues that require a higher level of authority as that would undermine the value of the system. As far as game guides go, they are there to help boost the morale of the community and directly assist with helping new players and organizing events.
Giving game guides the ability to formally recognize players could be one such event and I think it sounds particularly enticing to try and earn their vote of approval. This provides a sense of randomness because nobody truly knows what level of importance any given guide places on certain behavior types, and also encourages players to think outside the box in regards to what kind of help they offer as well as the beneficiary players in what kind of recommendations they make. This is dynamic interaction, communication, and community involvement. No week should feel the exact same. That sounds fun and exciting to me and could lead to many memorable moments being shared by an entire community as opposed to limiting them to only the players that are directly involved in the experience itself. These honorable mentions, so to speak, could even be saved on a game-wide log that could encourage players from one server to try and replicate what they determined as a cool experience on another server.
It sounds like an interesting idea allowing the guides to make the final decision. I'm still not sold on the whole idea of a reputation system but having a system where either the game itself or the guides make the decision would be much better than the players making the decision themselves.
I just want Pantheon to have a similar community to how EverQuest was back in its heyday. It was such an enjoyable game to be a part of and the people were generally really friendly (although of course there were the usual flames that happen on any game forum outside of the game). I hope that players will be decent to other players simply because they are nice peeople not because they get something in return for being nice.
Nanoushka said: Maybe it might be more fun if people could offer their services in for example an inn by leaving a notice on a messageboard type of thing (for that evening or as long as they want) that other players can read and then contact them if they wish. Without any benefit, just for kindness' sake. There are always people who like to help out. And it would tie in with inns being a way of connecting with the community and giving inns more meaning.
That could be cool. I certainly like the idea of message boards which have been brought up multiple times in the past on this forum. Saying that you were willing to help people would be a great way to meet new players and allow the community to get to know one another. Anything that helps in that goal is a good idea as far as I am concerned.
Cromulent said:Nanoushka said: Maybe it might be more fun if people could offer their services in for example an inn by leaving a notice on a messageboard type of thing (for that evening or as long as they want) that other players can read and then contact them if they wish. Without any benefit, just for kindness' sake. There are always people who like to help out. And it would tie in with inns being a way of connecting with the community and giving inns more meaning.That could be cool. I certainly like the idea of message boards which have been brought up multiple times in the past on this forum. Saying that you were willing to help people would be a great way to meet new players and allow the community to get to know one another. Anything that helps in that goal is a good idea as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on all of the other ideas that were shared? I think the reputation system has been the primary focus of talks recently but there is so much more to cover. Personally, I am the most intrigued by the knight/squire system. How could something like this be tweaked to accomplish the various goals that have been communicated while also adding in a healthy fun factor?
oneADseven said:Cromulent said:Nanoushka said: Maybe it might be more fun if people could offer their services in for example an inn by leaving a notice on a messageboard type of thing (for that evening or as long as they want) that other players can read and then contact them if they wish. Without any benefit, just for kindness' sake. There are always people who like to help out. And it would tie in with inns being a way of connecting with the community and giving inns more meaning.That could be cool. I certainly like the idea of message boards which have been brought up multiple times in the past on this forum. Saying that you were willing to help people would be a great way to meet new players and allow the community to get to know one another. Anything that helps in that goal is a good idea as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on all of the other ideas that were shared? I think the reputation system has been the primary focus of talks recently but there is so much more to cover. Personally, I am the most intrigued by the knight/squire system. How could something like this be tweaked to accomplish the various goals that have been communicated while also adding in a healthy fun factor?
The knight / squire system sounds like a more complex form of mentoring to me which has been done in other games before. I like the idea that the high level player gets something in return for helping out a lower level player because lets face it once you are at a high or max level going back to newbie zones can be a bit boring if you have just completed them all yourself (this does change when you have missed out some newbie zones in your own leveling and you'd like to go back and try out the ones you have missed).
It would have to be seriously considered though as paying someone to do something does sometimes (unfortunately) result in the person being running off with your money. It should be a pay after the fact system rather than a pay before the fact system. Perhaps the money could be held in an escrow system so that the lower level players couldn't run off with out paying either.
I don't know. I've never made use of the mentor system in any of the games I've played so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask.
The main problem I see with a game like Pantheon is two or three years after release when everyone is max level and a new player comes in. How are we going to ensure that they can still level up when maybe there aren't that many people to group with anymore. If a mentor system solves that problem it would be good but I still think the answer to this problem is just to join a good guild that would help lower level players themselves.
I prefer the system to be automated , when speaking of the points. There are a few reasons , one being favortism or even the view of it being one. I can name a few instances in other games where things like this where abused by guides to allow server firsts of content. I understand that it is not a true "progression" mechanic , but the point is still a valid concern.
The second reason , workload. The automating of the process removes the need for a guide to be online at all and just makes more sense if it is considered. There is not always going to be a guide around or even that plays on weird hours.
This also goes into a person "guide" should never have the ability to directly advance or effect a player IMO. The benefits of a automated system , perhaps tiered or progressive has merit. Help xxx number of people complete so many quests you get point or whatever arbitrary mark is used.
There also needs to be thresh hold to prevent abuse , otherwise its the guy doing it for his box crew.
Xxar said:I prefer the system to be automated , when speaking of the points. There are a few reasons , one being favortism or even the view of it being one. I can name a few instances in other games where things like this where abused by guides to allow server firsts of content. I understand that it is not a true "progression" mechanic , but the point is still a valid concern.
The second reason , workload. The automating of the process removes the need for a guide to be online at all and just makes more sense if it is considered. There is not always going to be a guide around or even that plays on weird hours.
This also goes into a person "guide" should never have the ability to directly advance or effect a player IMO. The benefits of a automated system , perhaps tiered or progressive has merit. Help xxx number of people complete so many quests you get point or whatever arbitrary mark is used.
There also needs to be thresh hold to prevent abuse , otherwise its the guy doing it for his box crew.
Good point about people boxing. I hadn't thought about that. There should be some way to prevent people playing multiple accounts from abusing the system. Perhaps there could be check to see if the character are played from the same IP address and if they are stop any rewards being given?
Xxar said:That does nothing to fix the problem , IP addresses are easily manipulated.
Only if you spoof your IP address and you'd have to do that for every client connecting from your home which most ISPs block with their networking gear. Sure I could knock up a Python script that used a spoofed IP address but most ISPs worth their salt block all such connections from leaving their network so I don't think you'll be finding many players even attempting to do that.
If on the other hand you mean using a proxy then you'd have to have each client use a different proxy and be sure that no other players are using the same proxy otherise it would block all the players from receiving a reward even if they are not boxing. The same is true of VPNs as well.
So while technically it is easy to fiddle with your IP address in practice it is not and most of the tactics just won't work. How many people are going to set up 2,3...6,7 private VPNs just to box their accounts? Almost none and those that do well if they are prepared to go that far to get around the system chances are they would be prepared to cheat even further if required.
Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Cromulent said:Nanoushka said: Maybe it might be more fun if people could offer their services in for example an inn by leaving a notice on a messageboard type of thing (for that evening or as long as they want) that other players can read and then contact them if they wish. Without any benefit, just for kindness' sake. There are always people who like to help out. And it would tie in with inns being a way of connecting with the community and giving inns more meaning.That could be cool. I certainly like the idea of message boards which have been brought up multiple times in the past on this forum. Saying that you were willing to help people would be a great way to meet new players and allow the community to get to know one another. Anything that helps in that goal is a good idea as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on all of the other ideas that were shared? I think the reputation system has been the primary focus of talks recently but there is so much more to cover. Personally, I am the most intrigued by the knight/squire system. How could something like this be tweaked to accomplish the various goals that have been communicated while also adding in a healthy fun factor?
The knight / squire system sounds like a more complex form of mentoring to me which has been done in other games before. I like the idea that the high level player gets something in return for helping out a lower level player because lets face it once you are at a high or max level going back to newbie zones can be a bit boring if you have just completed them all yourself (this does change when you have missed out some newbie zones in your own leveling and you'd like to go back and try out the ones you have missed).
It would have to be seriously considered though as paying someone to do something does sometimes (unfortunately) result in the person being running off with your money. It should be a pay after the fact system rather than a pay before the fact system. Perhaps the money could be held in an escrow system so that the lower level players couldn't run off with out paying either.
I don't know. I've never made use of the mentor system in any of the games I've played so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask.
The main problem I see with a game like Pantheon is two or three years after release when everyone is max level and a new player comes in. How are we going to ensure that they can still level up when maybe there aren't that many people to group with anymore. If a mentor system solves that problem it would be good but I still think the answer to this problem is just to join a good guild that would help lower level players themselves.
You make some awesome points and those are the very reasons for this thread! My vision of a knight/squire system is to provide 2 designations, knight & squire. Knights could be LFS (looking for squire) at any given point in time and squires could be LFK (looking for knight.) Unfortunately as we both know, new players have very little to offer a max level player. By allowing them to pledge homage in the form of % based future earnings, it's almost like giving a new player a credit card and giving the experienced player a credit carn machine for accepting payment. The thing that makes this so important is that it encourages player to player interaction in an area where it's very rare to exist, organically. Of course people have stories where they met someone awesome but for every one of those stories there are several where someone didn't get that type of assistance.
The knights would basically be a mercenary of sorts but once they are bonded with a squire, their relationship is much more meaningful. Rather than having a mentor that lasts for a single session, it's like working with a long-term mentor. By allowing the squire to increase their homage pledge as time goes on, it allows them to work directly with the knight and pay them after certain milestones. The knight might not be getting much up front, but that also reinforces how important it is for the knight to continue working with the squire. As they progress their level, that homage pledge % will start to become more valuable. This is a great reason for the knight to maintain an active/healthy relationship with their squire and to help push them to the next level. Also, if someone really wanted to, they could take on multiple squires. So now let's say there is an awesome veteran player who literally makes a business for himself by taking in squires and helping them advance through the game.
Again, I understand that some people would like to see this done purely organically. This system doesen't prevent people from doing that. If they are kind enough to volunteer their services for free, that would be perfectly okay. This system is merely a means to an end as it pertains to linking people who need help to people who can offer it. Nobody should ever assume that people will just help them for free ... I understand that it happens but how often does someone randomly run into someone who might literally commit to something that could take weeks/months? What ends up happening is these max level players go off and farm stuff solo. They'll go spend their time crafting. More times than not, they'll do something that somehow increases their resources or progresses their character.
This system incentivizes them to instead spend that time helping out a new player. It's literally a funnel of player to player interaction that I could imagine getting quite popular, and in my opinion, allowing new players to leverage their future earning potential would be an amazing resource. There are plenty of times where people would like to say "Just trust me, you take care of me now and I will get you back later." Yeah, sounds good, how often does that work? If you create a system where something like this can be structured, it opens up a world of possibilities. Rather than banking on a promise (most players have seen shady dealings and in an effort to not feel gullible will avoid this) they can rely on a contract of sorts. The earning % rewards could be escrowed or whatever and then shipped weekly, perhaps? Would almost be like getting a paycheck.
Again, I understand some people might hate this! And maybe this system wouldn't be for you. This is a way for a brand new player who joins the game late to jump right into the game and potentially connect with a veteran player. Instead of having to beg for help, there could actually be a demand for squires where he can engage amongst those offering their services and see who is offering the best deal. Perhaps 1 knight wants 5% future earnings for first 15 levels and another one wants 4%. There is so much potential for player interaction and communication here it's crazy. It also allows players to barter and create custom milestones. Let's consider this from the FAQ:
1.5 How are you going to encourage strangers to start talking to each other and play together in the game? Especially when it comes to people with already established connections within the game? How are you going to keep the new player experience good after the game has been out for six months?
There will be an entire system of features and mechanics to help people find new friends and others to group with -- there is no one special solution to such a challenge -- it must be a priority and addressed from many angles.
Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking. The main point is that we'll be doing all sorts of things to proactively bring people together and KEEP them together.
This is the opposite of something like a dungeon finder that randomly brings in people you need to do an instance, you then do the instance without speaking a word and once the instance is over the group disperses. This is what damages communities and prevents true social interaction.
"Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking."
As the rest of this excerpt suggests, this is a priority and must be addressed from multiple angles. Using the "vision/description" of the knight/squire system I have outlined in this post, would this system potentially serve as one such solution to this challenge?
Cromulent said:Xxar said:That does nothing to fix the problem , IP addresses are easily manipulated.
Only if you spoof your IP address and you'd have to do that for every client connecting from your home which most ISPs block with their networking gear. Sure I could knock up a Python script that used a spoofed IP address but most ISPs worth their salt block all such connections from leaving their network so I don't think you'll be finding many players even attempting to do that.
If on the other hand you mean using a proxy then you'd have to have each client use a different proxy and be sure that no other players are using the same proxy otherise it would block all the players from receiving a reward even if they are not boxing. The same is true of VPNs as well.
So while technically it is easy to fiddle with your IP address in practice it is not and most of the tactics just won't work. How many people are going to set up 2,3...6,7 private VPNs just to box their accounts? Almost none and those that do well if they are prepared to go that far to get around the system chances are they would be prepared to cheat even further if required.
I just prefer a more subtle solution. I am good and pointing out flaws is all :)
oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Cromulent said:Nanoushka said: Maybe it might be more fun if people could offer their services in for example an inn by leaving a notice on a messageboard type of thing (for that evening or as long as they want) that other players can read and then contact them if they wish. Without any benefit, just for kindness' sake. There are always people who like to help out. And it would tie in with inns being a way of connecting with the community and giving inns more meaning.That could be cool. I certainly like the idea of message boards which have been brought up multiple times in the past on this forum. Saying that you were willing to help people would be a great way to meet new players and allow the community to get to know one another. Anything that helps in that goal is a good idea as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on all of the other ideas that were shared? I think the reputation system has been the primary focus of talks recently but there is so much more to cover. Personally, I am the most intrigued by the knight/squire system. How could something like this be tweaked to accomplish the various goals that have been communicated while also adding in a healthy fun factor?
The knight / squire system sounds like a more complex form of mentoring to me which has been done in other games before. I like the idea that the high level player gets something in return for helping out a lower level player because lets face it once you are at a high or max level going back to newbie zones can be a bit boring if you have just completed them all yourself (this does change when you have missed out some newbie zones in your own leveling and you'd like to go back and try out the ones you have missed).
It would have to be seriously considered though as paying someone to do something does sometimes (unfortunately) result in the person being running off with your money. It should be a pay after the fact system rather than a pay before the fact system. Perhaps the money could be held in an escrow system so that the lower level players couldn't run off with out paying either.
I don't know. I've never made use of the mentor system in any of the games I've played so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask.
The main problem I see with a game like Pantheon is two or three years after release when everyone is max level and a new player comes in. How are we going to ensure that they can still level up when maybe there aren't that many people to group with anymore. If a mentor system solves that problem it would be good but I still think the answer to this problem is just to join a good guild that would help lower level players themselves.
You make some awesome points and those are the very reasons for this thread! My vision of a knight/squire system is to provide 2 designations, knight & squire. Knights could be LFS (looking for squire) at any given point in time and squires could be LFK (looking for knight.) Unfortunately as we both know, new players have very little to offer a max level player. By allowing them to pledge homage in the form of % based future earnings, it's almost like giving a new player a credit card and giving the experienced player a credit carn machine for accepting payment. The thing that makes this so important is that it encourages player to player interaction in an area where it's very rare to exist, organically. Of course people have stories where they met someone awesome but for every one of those stories there are several where someone didn't get that type of assistance.
The knights would basically be a mercenary of sorts but once they are bonded with a squire, their relationship is much more meaningful. Rather than having a mentor that lasts for a single session, it's like working with a long-term mentor. By allowing the squire to increase their homage pledge as time goes on, it allows them to work directly with the knight and pay them after certain milestones. The knight might not be getting much up front, but that also reinforces how important it is for the knight to continue working with the squire. As they progress their level, that homage pledge % will start to become more valuable. This is a great reason for the knight to maintain an active/healthy relationship with their squire and to help push them to the next level. Also, if someone really wanted to, they could take on multiple squires. So now let's say there is an awesome veteran player who literally makes a business for himself by taking in squires and helping them advance through the game.
Again, I understand that some people would like to see this done purely organically. This system doesen't prevent people from doing that. If they are kind enough to volunteer their services for free, that would be perfectly okay. This system is merely a means to an end as it pertains to linking people who need help to people who can offer it. Nobody should ever assume that people will just help them for free ... I understand that it happens but how often does someone randomly run into someone who might literally commit to something that could take weeks/months? What ends up happening is these max level players go off and farm stuff solo. They'll go spend their time crafting. More times than not, they'll do something that somehow increases their resources or progresses their character.
This system incentivizes them to instead spend that time helping out a new player. It's literally a funnel of player to player interaction that I could imagine getting quite popular, and in my opinion, allowing new players to leverage their future earning potential would be an amazing resource. There are plenty of times where people would like to say "Just trust me, you take care of me now and I will get you back later." Yeah, sounds good, how often does that work? If you create a system where something like this can be structured, it opens up a world of possibilities. Rather than banking on a promise (most players have seen shady dealings and in an effort to not feel gullible will avoid this) they can rely on a contract of sorts. The earning % rewards could be escrowed or whatever and then shipped weekly, perhaps? Would almost be like getting a paycheck.
Again, I understand some people might hate this! And maybe this system wouldn't be for you. This is a way for a brand new player who joins the game late to jump right into the game and potentially connect with a veteran player. Instead of having to beg for help, there could actually be a demand for squires where he can engage amongst those offering their services and see who is offering the best deal. Perhaps 1 knight wants 5% future earnings for first 15 levels and another one wants 4%. There is so much potential for player interaction and communication here it's crazy. It also allows players to barter and create custom milestones. Let's consider this from the FAQ:
1.5 How are you going to encourage strangers to start talking to each other and play together in the game? Especially when it comes to people with already established connections within the game? How are you going to keep the new player experience good after the game has been out for six months?
There will be an entire system of features and mechanics to help people find new friends and others to group with -- there is no one special solution to such a challenge -- it must be a priority and addressed from many angles.
Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking. The main point is that we'll be doing all sorts of things to proactively bring people together and KEEP them together.
This is the opposite of something like a dungeon finder that randomly brings in people you need to do an instance, you then do the instance without speaking a word and once the instance is over the group disperses. This is what damages communities and prevents true social interaction.
"Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking."
As the rest of this excerpt suggests, this is a priority and must be addressed from multiple angles. Using the "vision/description" of the knight/squire system I have outlined in this post, would this system potentially serve as one such solution to this challenge?
Hmm. Interesting points.
What you have described in similar to another game in development. They have a system where players can sign contract between themselves. So for example say you want "Sword of Uber Killing" and you know a crafter that can make it you sign a contract between yourself and the crafter that says if you pay the crafter 1000p then the crafter will give you the item for that price. The contract is actually handled by the game so if you break the contract the game punishes you in some way (maybe sending the player to jail for a certain amount of time or something). That way players know that another player is not going to rip them off.
Contracts are made by players with the scribe skill and only the highest level scribes can make the most complex forms of contract. So you'd need the help of a scribe to do what you are suggesting.
I'm not saying Pantheon should copy exactly the other game but it is a very interesting idea and taking inspiration from other games can certainly help to make Pantheon a more rounded playing experience. Having player contracts would be awesome I think.
Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Cromulent said:Nanoushka said: Maybe it might be more fun if people could offer their services in for example an inn by leaving a notice on a messageboard type of thing (for that evening or as long as they want) that other players can read and then contact them if they wish. Without any benefit, just for kindness' sake. There are always people who like to help out. And it would tie in with inns being a way of connecting with the community and giving inns more meaning.That could be cool. I certainly like the idea of message boards which have been brought up multiple times in the past on this forum. Saying that you were willing to help people would be a great way to meet new players and allow the community to get to know one another. Anything that helps in that goal is a good idea as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on all of the other ideas that were shared? I think the reputation system has been the primary focus of talks recently but there is so much more to cover. Personally, I am the most intrigued by the knight/squire system. How could something like this be tweaked to accomplish the various goals that have been communicated while also adding in a healthy fun factor?
The knight / squire system sounds like a more complex form of mentoring to me which has been done in other games before. I like the idea that the high level player gets something in return for helping out a lower level player because lets face it once you are at a high or max level going back to newbie zones can be a bit boring if you have just completed them all yourself (this does change when you have missed out some newbie zones in your own leveling and you'd like to go back and try out the ones you have missed).
It would have to be seriously considered though as paying someone to do something does sometimes (unfortunately) result in the person being running off with your money. It should be a pay after the fact system rather than a pay before the fact system. Perhaps the money could be held in an escrow system so that the lower level players couldn't run off with out paying either.
I don't know. I've never made use of the mentor system in any of the games I've played so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask.
The main problem I see with a game like Pantheon is two or three years after release when everyone is max level and a new player comes in. How are we going to ensure that they can still level up when maybe there aren't that many people to group with anymore. If a mentor system solves that problem it would be good but I still think the answer to this problem is just to join a good guild that would help lower level players themselves.
You make some awesome points and those are the very reasons for this thread! My vision of a knight/squire system is to provide 2 designations, knight & squire. Knights could be LFS (looking for squire) at any given point in time and squires could be LFK (looking for knight.) Unfortunately as we both know, new players have very little to offer a max level player. By allowing them to pledge homage in the form of % based future earnings, it's almost like giving a new player a credit card and giving the experienced player a credit carn machine for accepting payment. The thing that makes this so important is that it encourages player to player interaction in an area where it's very rare to exist, organically. Of course people have stories where they met someone awesome but for every one of those stories there are several where someone didn't get that type of assistance.
The knights would basically be a mercenary of sorts but once they are bonded with a squire, their relationship is much more meaningful. Rather than having a mentor that lasts for a single session, it's like working with a long-term mentor. By allowing the squire to increase their homage pledge as time goes on, it allows them to work directly with the knight and pay them after certain milestones. The knight might not be getting much up front, but that also reinforces how important it is for the knight to continue working with the squire. As they progress their level, that homage pledge % will start to become more valuable. This is a great reason for the knight to maintain an active/healthy relationship with their squire and to help push them to the next level. Also, if someone really wanted to, they could take on multiple squires. So now let's say there is an awesome veteran player who literally makes a business for himself by taking in squires and helping them advance through the game.
Again, I understand that some people would like to see this done purely organically. This system doesen't prevent people from doing that. If they are kind enough to volunteer their services for free, that would be perfectly okay. This system is merely a means to an end as it pertains to linking people who need help to people who can offer it. Nobody should ever assume that people will just help them for free ... I understand that it happens but how often does someone randomly run into someone who might literally commit to something that could take weeks/months? What ends up happening is these max level players go off and farm stuff solo. They'll go spend their time crafting. More times than not, they'll do something that somehow increases their resources or progresses their character.
This system incentivizes them to instead spend that time helping out a new player. It's literally a funnel of player to player interaction that I could imagine getting quite popular, and in my opinion, allowing new players to leverage their future earning potential would be an amazing resource. There are plenty of times where people would like to say "Just trust me, you take care of me now and I will get you back later." Yeah, sounds good, how often does that work? If you create a system where something like this can be structured, it opens up a world of possibilities. Rather than banking on a promise (most players have seen shady dealings and in an effort to not feel gullible will avoid this) they can rely on a contract of sorts. The earning % rewards could be escrowed or whatever and then shipped weekly, perhaps? Would almost be like getting a paycheck.
Again, I understand some people might hate this! And maybe this system wouldn't be for you. This is a way for a brand new player who joins the game late to jump right into the game and potentially connect with a veteran player. Instead of having to beg for help, there could actually be a demand for squires where he can engage amongst those offering their services and see who is offering the best deal. Perhaps 1 knight wants 5% future earnings for first 15 levels and another one wants 4%. There is so much potential for player interaction and communication here it's crazy. It also allows players to barter and create custom milestones. Let's consider this from the FAQ:
1.5 How are you going to encourage strangers to start talking to each other and play together in the game? Especially when it comes to people with already established connections within the game? How are you going to keep the new player experience good after the game has been out for six months?
There will be an entire system of features and mechanics to help people find new friends and others to group with -- there is no one special solution to such a challenge -- it must be a priority and addressed from many angles.
Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking. The main point is that we'll be doing all sorts of things to proactively bring people together and KEEP them together.
This is the opposite of something like a dungeon finder that randomly brings in people you need to do an instance, you then do the instance without speaking a word and once the instance is over the group disperses. This is what damages communities and prevents true social interaction.
"Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking."
As the rest of this excerpt suggests, this is a priority and must be addressed from multiple angles. Using the "vision/description" of the knight/squire system I have outlined in this post, would this system potentially serve as one such solution to this challenge?
Hmm. Interesting points.
What you have described in similar to another game in development. They have a system where players can sign contract between themselves. So for example say you want "Sword of Uber Killing" and you know a crafter that can make it you sign a contract between yourself and the crafter that says if you pay the crafter 1000p then the crafter will give you the item for that price. The contract is actually handled by the game so if you break the contract the game punishes you in some way (maybe sending the player to jail for a certain amount of time or something). That way players know that another player is not going to rip them off.
Contracts are made by players with the scribe skill and only the highest level scribes can make the most complex forms of contract. So you'd need the help of a scribe to do what you are suggesting.
I'm not saying Pantheon should copy exactly the other game but it is a very interesting idea and taking inspiration from other games can certainly help to make Pantheon a more rounded playing experience. Having player contracts would be awesome I think.
I definitely like the idea of it, but it's not quite as detailed as that system. I imagine that system is where people can put contracts out in the open and the first person to deliver the requirements of that contract receives the reward. With knight/squire, it's more like having "agreed to milestones" -- these would happen between two players, not be something available to just anybody. I suppose a squire could offer a flat % homage pledge to any knight who performs a specific task, but one concern I have is squires abusing the system to get knights to do certain things and then not bumping up their homage pledge as promised. I wouldn't want GM's to get involved in all of the disputes that could potentially arise out of this so the hard part is coming up with a way to enforce it.
Contracts could be such an option. Having an escrow account could be an option. Perhaps having another player involved in the matrix, almost like a "Notary." The "Notary" could scribe the details of the contract (perhaps set limitations so they aren't relative, ie, the details would need to be spelled out clearly and be easily gauged/tracked) and also place the agreed to homage pledge in an escrow. Upon completion of the contract, under certain circumstances, perhaps it could be released? Player-made quests definitely sounds appealing to me, but it also sounds super difficult. At first, I was thinking small incremental homage pledges that could be bumped up in 0.25% intervals or higher, and use multiple resources such as materials harvested, gold looted from the ground or corpses, faction, etc.
oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Cromulent said:oneADseven said:Cromulent said:Nanoushka said: Maybe it might be more fun if people could offer their services in for example an inn by leaving a notice on a messageboard type of thing (for that evening or as long as they want) that other players can read and then contact them if they wish. Without any benefit, just for kindness' sake. There are always people who like to help out. And it would tie in with inns being a way of connecting with the community and giving inns more meaning.That could be cool. I certainly like the idea of message boards which have been brought up multiple times in the past on this forum. Saying that you were willing to help people would be a great way to meet new players and allow the community to get to know one another. Anything that helps in that goal is a good idea as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on all of the other ideas that were shared? I think the reputation system has been the primary focus of talks recently but there is so much more to cover. Personally, I am the most intrigued by the knight/squire system. How could something like this be tweaked to accomplish the various goals that have been communicated while also adding in a healthy fun factor?
The knight / squire system sounds like a more complex form of mentoring to me which has been done in other games before. I like the idea that the high level player gets something in return for helping out a lower level player because lets face it once you are at a high or max level going back to newbie zones can be a bit boring if you have just completed them all yourself (this does change when you have missed out some newbie zones in your own leveling and you'd like to go back and try out the ones you have missed).
It would have to be seriously considered though as paying someone to do something does sometimes (unfortunately) result in the person being running off with your money. It should be a pay after the fact system rather than a pay before the fact system. Perhaps the money could be held in an escrow system so that the lower level players couldn't run off with out paying either.
I don't know. I've never made use of the mentor system in any of the games I've played so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask.
The main problem I see with a game like Pantheon is two or three years after release when everyone is max level and a new player comes in. How are we going to ensure that they can still level up when maybe there aren't that many people to group with anymore. If a mentor system solves that problem it would be good but I still think the answer to this problem is just to join a good guild that would help lower level players themselves.
You make some awesome points and those are the very reasons for this thread! My vision of a knight/squire system is to provide 2 designations, knight & squire. Knights could be LFS (looking for squire) at any given point in time and squires could be LFK (looking for knight.) Unfortunately as we both know, new players have very little to offer a max level player. By allowing them to pledge homage in the form of % based future earnings, it's almost like giving a new player a credit card and giving the experienced player a credit carn machine for accepting payment. The thing that makes this so important is that it encourages player to player interaction in an area where it's very rare to exist, organically. Of course people have stories where they met someone awesome but for every one of those stories there are several where someone didn't get that type of assistance.
The knights would basically be a mercenary of sorts but once they are bonded with a squire, their relationship is much more meaningful. Rather than having a mentor that lasts for a single session, it's like working with a long-term mentor. By allowing the squire to increase their homage pledge as time goes on, it allows them to work directly with the knight and pay them after certain milestones. The knight might not be getting much up front, but that also reinforces how important it is for the knight to continue working with the squire. As they progress their level, that homage pledge % will start to become more valuable. This is a great reason for the knight to maintain an active/healthy relationship with their squire and to help push them to the next level. Also, if someone really wanted to, they could take on multiple squires. So now let's say there is an awesome veteran player who literally makes a business for himself by taking in squires and helping them advance through the game.
Again, I understand that some people would like to see this done purely organically. This system doesen't prevent people from doing that. If they are kind enough to volunteer their services for free, that would be perfectly okay. This system is merely a means to an end as it pertains to linking people who need help to people who can offer it. Nobody should ever assume that people will just help them for free ... I understand that it happens but how often does someone randomly run into someone who might literally commit to something that could take weeks/months? What ends up happening is these max level players go off and farm stuff solo. They'll go spend their time crafting. More times than not, they'll do something that somehow increases their resources or progresses their character.
This system incentivizes them to instead spend that time helping out a new player. It's literally a funnel of player to player interaction that I could imagine getting quite popular, and in my opinion, allowing new players to leverage their future earning potential would be an amazing resource. There are plenty of times where people would like to say "Just trust me, you take care of me now and I will get you back later." Yeah, sounds good, how often does that work? If you create a system where something like this can be structured, it opens up a world of possibilities. Rather than banking on a promise (most players have seen shady dealings and in an effort to not feel gullible will avoid this) they can rely on a contract of sorts. The earning % rewards could be escrowed or whatever and then shipped weekly, perhaps? Would almost be like getting a paycheck.
Again, I understand some people might hate this! And maybe this system wouldn't be for you. This is a way for a brand new player who joins the game late to jump right into the game and potentially connect with a veteran player. Instead of having to beg for help, there could actually be a demand for squires where he can engage amongst those offering their services and see who is offering the best deal. Perhaps 1 knight wants 5% future earnings for first 15 levels and another one wants 4%. There is so much potential for player interaction and communication here it's crazy. It also allows players to barter and create custom milestones. Let's consider this from the FAQ:
1.5 How are you going to encourage strangers to start talking to each other and play together in the game? Especially when it comes to people with already established connections within the game? How are you going to keep the new player experience good after the game has been out for six months?
There will be an entire system of features and mechanics to help people find new friends and others to group with -- there is no one special solution to such a challenge -- it must be a priority and addressed from many angles.
Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking. The main point is that we'll be doing all sorts of things to proactively bring people together and KEEP them together.
This is the opposite of something like a dungeon finder that randomly brings in people you need to do an instance, you then do the instance without speaking a word and once the instance is over the group disperses. This is what damages communities and prevents true social interaction.
"Some quick and easy examples, of course, would be to reward people who don't know each other to group together, to help them stay in contact, to allow to share personal information if they want, to allow searching for new friends if that person chooses to participate in matchmaking."
As the rest of this excerpt suggests, this is a priority and must be addressed from multiple angles. Using the "vision/description" of the knight/squire system I have outlined in this post, would this system potentially serve as one such solution to this challenge?
Hmm. Interesting points.
What you have described in similar to another game in development. They have a system where players can sign contract between themselves. So for example say you want "Sword of Uber Killing" and you know a crafter that can make it you sign a contract between yourself and the crafter that says if you pay the crafter 1000p then the crafter will give you the item for that price. The contract is actually handled by the game so if you break the contract the game punishes you in some way (maybe sending the player to jail for a certain amount of time or something). That way players know that another player is not going to rip them off.
Contracts are made by players with the scribe skill and only the highest level scribes can make the most complex forms of contract. So you'd need the help of a scribe to do what you are suggesting.
I'm not saying Pantheon should copy exactly the other game but it is a very interesting idea and taking inspiration from other games can certainly help to make Pantheon a more rounded playing experience. Having player contracts would be awesome I think.
I definitely like the idea of it, but it's not quite as detailed as that system. I imagine that system is where people can put contracts out in the open and the first person to deliver the requirements of that contract receives the reward. With knight/squire, it's more like having "agreed to milestones" -- these would happen between two players, not be something available to just anybody. I suppose a squire could offer a flat % homage pledge to any knight who performs a specific task, but one concern I have is squires abusing the system to get knights to do certain things and then not bumping up their homage pledge as promised. I wouldn't want GM's to get involved in all of the disputes that could potentially arise out of this so the hard part is coming up with a way to enforce it.
Contracts could be such an option. Having an escrow account could be an option. Perhaps having another player involved in the matrix, almost like a "Notary." The "Notary" could scribe the details of the contract (perhaps set limitations so they aren't relative, ie, the details would need to be spelled out clearly and be easily gauged/tracked) and also place the agreed to homage pledge in an escrow. Upon completion of the contract, under certain circumstances, perhaps it could be released? Player-made quests definitely sounds appealing to me, but it also sounds super difficult. At first, I was thinking small incremental homage pledges that could be bumped up in 0.25% intervals or higher, and use multiple resources such as materials harvested, gold looted from the ground or corpses, faction, etc.
How about having guild leaders / officers work as the notary? They are trusted players and will obviously want to keep the reputation of their guild in good standing so are unlikely to screw over another player. If there are any major disagreements then the guides could get involved and if they still can't get it sorted then the GMs could get involved.
But guild leaders / officers are going to want to spend the time to make sure their guilds are running properly. Plus this system will encourage people to join guilds which is only a good thing for the community. Other than that having players who have to train a skill in order to be able to work with agreements between players would mean that they would want to make sure everything goes according to plan because they have spent the time trying to level up their skill and they would want to take part in further agreements. Perhaps they could take a small percentage commission so that they make a bit of money for offering their services?
My guild has both "logistics" and "ambassador" officers that I could see fulfilling a role like that. Definitely intrigued by the idea. It may be a bit restrictive in the sense that it would force new players to join a guild before any officer could get involved to assist with the process, but it still has merit. Keep the ideas coming! Of all the systems I have mentioned in this thread the knight/squire system is my personal favorite as it relates to encouraging a type of player to player interaction that very rarely happens organically.