I originally posted this in another thread, but I figured it would be more appropriate if I posted it here so as not to derail that thread from it's original purpose.
Aradune said:Dullahan said:Naim said:Can someone explain this caravan system? i only played VG for a month before quitting
It was a pretty horrible idea imo, and allowed you to travel with people offline and then magically appear with them somewhere else, effectively circumventing both the need to travel and the time and risk that should be associated with it.
I see it as a totally unnecessary system tbh, but if it was to be implemented with ways to prevent abuse, it could work. For instance, you should have to be offline for a while for it to take effect. The offline player should come back into the world without mana/stamina, and probably consume food and drink as well. This will prevent exploitations.
Definitely aware of potential exploits and will of course watch people use it in alpha and beta and adjust or tweak accordingly.
I understand that it's a new system to some, deemed unnecessary by others, etc. A version of it was in Vanguard -- it originated from me but how it worked may have changed post-launch, this I do not know.
It really falls into a larger category of features/mechanics we could label something like 'Keeping groups together and supporting community vs. Making Pantheon too easy, accommodating, etc". This category is an important one, has been growing over time, and we expect to be making lots of tweaks and changes to systems that fall into this group in alpha and beta (indeed even yanking a system entirely if necessary). Whatever we end up with, I hope the majority of the community will like or at least understand why it's there, but of course we won't be able to make everyone happy.
The reason, of course, is that these two goals often contradict or interfere with each other or at least appear to. This makes them extra important to not just think through but test vigorously in alpha/beta and make changes. And that's of course because both are important goals for Pantheon: that the game is challenging and group oriented but that we also need to make a real effort to help people 1. find groups 2. join a group 3. stay in that group 4. return to the group if disconnected, logged off, etc.
In general if we don't take a proactive stance regarding groups (and onboarding in general) then we could end up making it too frustrating to play the majority of Pantheon's content (which is group oriented). For example, we *must* avoid situations where a person logs in and spends more time trying to find a group or reunite with a group than actually playing the game in a group. And I think most will agree that's been a serious problem in more group-oriented MMOs. And I think people might be much less tolerant in the current era than they were, say, in 1999. Especially younger players.
The Caravan system is meant to address the following scenario: You and your friends are having a great time and then log off for the night. The next night most of the group returns, but you know that you can't play that night. But that night the group members that did log in decide to move from one end of the world to another, taking some time to do so if we do our jobs right and make both an epic world and travel meaningful.
Normally you'd then log in, say hello to your guildmates, find out they were far away, and then try to re-unite with them. You'd run to them, or teleport if you could. With the Caravan system, if you attach yourself to the group caravan before you log out, then when you log in next you'll be given the option of either appearing where you last were when you logged out *or* appear *near* wherever your group saved the caravan location.
Now, just based on the above rough description, probably anybody in our community could easily start poking holes in it, identifying exploits, and even simply make the argument that such a system is too 'easy' or 'hand holding' for a challenging game like Pantheon. But that's actually great and why I'm willing to talk about a future system earlier than later.
I think we have a pretty good handle on potential exploits. We're going to put together a list of restrictions (two being: You can't appear somewhere you've not traveled to before; if your group is in a dungeon, you'll likely appear at the dungeon entrance and then your group will have to use other abilities to attempt to get you to them, etc.)
Ultimately we have to try system(s) that help groups/guilds stay together in our large world with limited teleports. Obviously we cannot force everyone in a group to be logged in the entire time the rest of the group is in order to stay together -- life just doesn't work that way, especially as much of our community is older with more responsibilities, jobs, spouse, kids, etc.
So our goal (shared with the dev team and community) is to think about systems like the Caravan system and any other potential systems/mechanics/features that help keep groups together, the community together, but then also keep the game challenging, travel important, etc. It's easy to simply say, well, a lot of the time, at least on the surface, those two goals are at odds with each other or incompatible. I don't accept that, however. I think if we're careful, think these things through (an opposed to just voicing opposition in a reactionary manner), think outside the box, and believe that most or all of these challenges are solvable, we can really break some new ground and end up with an MMO full of community, grouping, RL friends, guilds, etc. that is also rewarding and challenging as all heck.
I like, for example, how Dullahan responded, although I'd like to see more: he said he didn't like it, didn't think it was necessary, but could work if designed properly to avoid exploits. Perfect!
If it is truly unnecessary, then we'll find out before release and yank it.
And if we talk about such systems before implementation and testing, then maybe we can avoid most issues ahead of time.
And then during actual testing we can find and address those pesky issues that oftentimes don't rear their ugly heads until people are actually playing the game.
'nuff said for now -- as is often for me I wanted to answer the Caravan system question specifically but also illuminate that it belongs to a larger part of Pantheon's mechanics and features, those being the group intended to help people play together, find friends, make new friends, interact with and find a reason to be part of the community. And then get people thinking, hey, how can we all do this without chimping out the hard core MMO we all want?
Thanks for dropping in and sharing some wisdom! I recall a recent thread that a friend of mine started where some ideas were discussed that are aligned with the community-centric theme you are talking about, particularly for lower level players, whether they are casual or a hardcore player that is late to the party. Here is a link: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5595/4-a-catch-up-feature/view/page/1
Beyond that, I'd like to offer some other suggestions:
Buy-Orders
With most economies being completely seller driven, there is an important element that is not properly represented and that is the desire to buy something at a lower price than what is available on the market. With most games, players are forced to participate in "WTB Spam" in auction channels to advertise their desire to purchase something at a certain price. If players are capable of creating a buy order in the market place, this would create a new spectrum of player interaction that is missing in most MMO economies.
Achievements
(Not going to speculate on the rewards for these.)
Reputation
(Not going to speculate on the rewards for this.)
Rather than having a reputation system where players can vote people up or down, limit it to up-votes only. Limit players to offering only 1 reputation point per week to prevent abuse. Something like this might encourage people to go the extra mile in helping someone. Reputation could be earned in a variety of ways that players have the freedom to determine but one thing is constant -- it always requires direct interaction!
Crafting
Allow crafters to create rare custom made items that are otherwise unattainable anywhere else in the game. My understanding is that VR might already have something like this in mind seeing as crafters will be able to enchant gear to provide bonuses that are specifically tailored to an individual's needs. Perhaps there could be a small bonus if this enchantment was applied directly to the character wearing it rather than a piece of gear that can be sold/traded?
Perception
What if perception is used for more than just finding quests? Perhaps a group of players could explore ruins outside of a cave that could provide insight on what type of monsters, traps or treasures are inside. Perhaps they can find temporary resources that would be helpful once they enter the dungeon such as acclimation buffers, illumination spells, bane enchantments, or notes with clues to a puzzle? Rather than diving straight into the dungeon, players would be encouraged to adventure around the entrance to find these randomly spawned items that could provide meaningful benefits inside.
Knight/Squire System
How about creating a knight/squire system where an experienced player can take a fresh player under their wing up until the point where they also reach knight-hood? Allow the squire to pay a homage to their knight where the knight earns a semi-permanent royalty of some sort. This could be negotiated between the players and could include things such as looted currency, faction, or harvested materials. Allow players to add to their homage pledge as time goes on to ensure that the knight fulfills their duties, perhaps in .5% increments, up to a maximum amount, perhaps 25 percent? Also allow players to agree to a buy-out so that if a certain amount of resources are accumulated, the homage pledge is severed.
Bulletin Parchments & Merchant Carts
Allow players to post bulletin parchments throughout the world where they can advertise their wares and location. These bulletins would automatically disappear/reappear while the merchant is settled at a predetermined location. If they leave that location, the bulletin parchment would temporarily disappear until the merchant player returns and re-enters "merchant mode." This prevents people from traveling to the end of the rainbow only to find a pot of dust. These bulletin parchments would only last a specific amount of time and could be upgraded by using higher quality parchments. Perhaps merchant carts can be upgraded via player outposts?
Post Offices
Much like localized banks or market places, perhaps the mail functionality could also be localized to some degree? Perhaps players can mail their goods to further away locations at a higher cost, but they could only be picked up at specific locations? This would require a greater deal of communication/interaction between players and create a more dynamic, living world.
Taverns, Innes, Villages, oh my!
I think these kind of gathering places should be strategically placed around the world and that they should be semi-close to dungeons or other points of interest. Rather than players meeting up at the dungeon entrance itself, offer some sort of incentive to meet at these locations so that the players have an opportunity to form important social bonds while they travel to their desired destination. Potential incentives include temporary out of combat hp/mana regens or repeatable caravan quests where groups can escort an NPC from the tavern/inne/village to whatever dungeon/point of interest that is nearby. The rewards for these quests should be very small, perhaps faction based, or one of the temporary resources that I mentioned in the perception category. These can only be completed once per day.
There are also plenty of wonderful ideas for these kind of gathering places in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4778/how-about-them-inns
Nice post mate! Some random injections from me because i had a moment up my sleeve at work!
Buy-Orders - Similar to this could be a looking for crafters advertisment board that people can post when they are looking for a particular type of crafter to contact them about a job. (similar to your merchant bullitin board below but in reverse)
Achievements - I am not interested in achievments myself but i know lots of people are, so i am sure this is a great idea and i like anythign that promotes helpful behaviour to newbies and a better society! (even if it is semi driven by reward... and kindness of course! ;)
Reputation - I prefer an individuals reputaion to grow organicly through word of mouth (for lack of a better description and not a voting system, but its a good idea if they were to implement somthing like a voting system to make it limited by time) still prefer the old method. This always reminds me of the episode of Black Mirror - Season 3 Ep1 Nosedive... Social Media ratings consuming society :)
Crafting - I am sure they have big plans for crafting like this! I'd imagine you would be spot on with this one and much much more!
Perception - Again i recon your probably on the right track with their intent for Perception, I imagine it will incorporate lots more than quests as your skill improves.. if not by launch soon after!
Knight/Squire System - I would prefer to keep things more to achievments like your other section than someone is in debt in curreny or faction to someone else for helping etc.
Bulletin Parchments & Merchant Carts - Definitely a fan of these one's mate. I see nothign game breaking about having merchant advertising in various locations! I thinkk they mentioned the possibility of Player owned NPC merhcants i think (maybe i was dreaming) so this would change things about "merchant mode"
Post Offices - I dont mind post office as long as it isnt instant.. but like you said it should cost and take time.
Taverns, Innes, Villages, oh my! - If Inns were located in alls orts of places including a range of locations close-ish to dungeons etc (as you mentioned) then maybe the caravan system could use the closest inn (to your caravan groups location) as the spawn point for caravan players logging in. This means that when you log in (off your caravan) your at the Inn and there is a bit of an opportunity for some extra recruiting and also means a Caravan doesnt drop you at the mouth of a dungeon but still requires a bit of a hike to get to your group and all the possible perils that the hike may involve! I am still warming up to the caravan idea.. waiting and seeing what all the details are before backing it or digging the heels in!
I have seen the knight/squire or mage/apprentice type of system done - I don't recall it ever bening done all that well.
But in Pantheon I like the idea of encouraging experienced players to help newcomers and the best encouragement is to give the experienced player a reward for doing it.
I'm not sure a negotiated fee is the best - when dealing with new players there is a lot to be said for kissing - as in keep it simple. So if the game gave the "knight" or "mage" tangible rewards tailored to his or her level that might help. So for instance the new player might get 2 coppers as a quest reward and the person helping might get 2 silvers. And the experience reward might likewise be tailored to the level of each of the characters - 5xp for one and 500 for the other let us say.
I don't disagree with any of the other things the OP said, necessarily, I just wanted to focus on this particular idea.
Thank you for the feedback! I'd like to add a disclaimer that no single detail in my post is etched in stone. These are just starting points for a conversation and I hope that people continue to provide input that can expand upon the potential of each idea. The knight/squire system sounded particularly interesting to me and I have never played a game where something like this existed. Traditionally, knight/squire relationships involve some sort of homage. The squire usually tends to the knights mount, prepares their meals, etc. I don't think anybody would be excited to have a role of servitude in this game so I felt that some sort of paid homage would be more appropriate. Personally, I like the idea of having a negotiated fee that can be adjusted along the way as it would consistently drive communication and interaction between both players. Perhaps a squire would be willing to offer .5% per level in a certain range, 1% per level in the next tier, 1.5% in the next, etc. Using future earnings as an asset is something that I find extremely interesting. Perhaps a squire would be willing to offer 2% homage for a full set of rare level 25 armor, or help with attaining a particularly rare spell. I actually envision a market for something like this where knights and squires advertise their availability and desire to connect.
As the knight fulfills his duties in helping the squire grow more powerful, the squire has the ability to increase their pledge of homage. This protects the squire from pledging a large amount early on and then something happening to the knight where they are unable to fulfill their obligations. I feel that a buyout feature would also be worthwhile but it's something that both parties should agree too. We all know that third party companies will offer power leveling services ... why not encourage organic relationships in game that can accomplish the same thing? It wouldn't be considered "direct power-leveling" in my opinion because of the relationship and bond between both players and the fact that knights are capable of offering so much more than help with leveling. Something like this would actually feel realistic and I think it would be a great idea to encourage this kind of behavior. I wouldn't want a tangible reward "from the game" because I want the player-to-player relationship between the knight and squire to feel mutually beneficial and meaningful.
Buy-Orders - I like this idea, the ability to say im willing to pay x for a specific item. If there is a time associated for it to remain viable, perhaps a deposit of the amount for x amount of days that it remains active.
Achievements - There is a entire thread on achievements. IMO I think any future discussion on this, needs to be directed there.
Reputation - Do not want , not matter what the limitations are even weekly allows results to be skewed and abused. Players need for form there own personal opinions.
Crafting - We really can not discuss this without knowing what the base crafting system involves. We have no clue if there is "rare" mats and or combines already.
Perception - I rather this become some sort of class based ability or spell that you target indivdual mobs to gain "information" about.
Knight/Squire System - Do not want , this will be abused and lead to multiple accounts to gain the bonus. Anything that resembles a recruit a friend program needs to not have a game based bonus.
Bulletin Parchments & Merchant Carts - I think this ties into Buy-Orders , alot depends on what type of market based system we have. There is not enough information to give any kind of pro or con until that point.
Post Offices - I have no problem with this on the condition it is not instant , perhaps even going into a previous discussed messenger system in another thread.
Taverns, Innes, Villages, oh my! - If it is used and once again we do not know specifics so hard to give feedback. I want there to be a plat sink involved, also alot depends on if there is a bind type of spell available. If here is a bind type of spell , then my answer is no , since it will reduce the interdependence required of the class associated to bind specific classes/players to locations.
Buy-Orders
With most economies being completely seller driven, there is an important element that is not properly represented and that is the desire to buy something at a lower price than what is available on the market. With most games, players are forced to participate in "WTB Spam" in auction channels to advertise their desire to purchase something at a certain price. If players are capable of creating a buy order in the market place, this would create a new spectrum of player interaction that is missing in most MMO economies.
There was a system like this in Pirates of the Burning Seas. I really liked how that worked and fully beleive that it would work here. But again, I would stress that there should be no "instant transfer" of goods/monies. I would also like to see an option to select what monies could be used. That way if someone wants to fullfill a buy-order for gems instead of gold, they can.
Achievements
(Not going to speculate on the rewards for these.)
I happened to really like the Achievement in EQII - when it first started. Later achievements gave no kind of reward worth mentioning. Vanity clothing/items would be OK so long as it isn't "better" than "real" gear.
Reputation
(Not going to speculate on the rewards for this.)
Rather than having a reputation system where players can vote people up or down, limit it to up-votes only. Limit players to offering only 1 reputation point per week to prevent abuse. Something like this might encourage people to go the extra mile in helping someone. Reputation could be earned in a variety of ways that players have the freedom to determine but one thing is constant -- it always requires direct interaction!
The last few years of EQII I announced I was in semi-retiremnt mode. Basically this meant I no longer raided (unless REALLY needed) and that I would devote my play-time to helping others (seeing as how I was way up on the leader boards for quests completed etc.). It would be nice if there was some place to leave notes about my services (almost always free - but well paid sometimes) so that I would not have to spam about it. I suppose some sort of grading system would be nice too. I would be wary about guilds upticking members for no reason etc. This could be abused so it needs to be really examined to ensure its viability.
Crafting
Allow crafters to create rare custom made items that are otherwise unattainable anywhere else in the game. My understanding is that VR might already have something like this in mind seeing as crafters will be able to enchant gear to provide bonuses that are specifically tailored to an individual's needs. Perhaps there could be a small bonus if this enchantment was applied directly to the character wearing it rather than a piece of gear that can be sold/traded?
There are SO many great ideas out there for crafting right now. But so far - nothing as for any real DevTime on it. I think we should focus on getting basic crafting up and running before expanding it.
Perception
What if perception is used for more than just finding quests? Perhaps a group of players could explore ruins outside of a cave that could provide insight on what type of monsters, traps or treasures are inside. Perhaps they can find temporary resources that would be helpful once they enter the dungeon such as acclimation buffers, illumination spells, bane enchantments, or notes with clues to a puzzle? Rather than diving straight into the dungeon, players would be encouraged to adventure around the entrance to find these randomly spawned items that could provide meaningful benefits inside.
As an idea, I would like to see the Progeny system work as a part of the squire/apprentice idea mention throughout this post. Once your progeny hits the age of say 15 they become a squire/apprentice to one of your playable characters. Think of them as non-combat pets. They can be used for perception boosts, they can run/sell loot, they can perform crafting tasks etc. Based on their use during their experiences during this period will determine their skills/stats. But DEFINATELY give them a PERCEPTION boost for thier use as a squire/apprentichip. As an alternative, make them available to other players instead. Not sure i really like that idea though...
Knight/Squire System
How about creating a knight/squire system where an experienced player can take a fresh player under their wing up until the point where they also reach knight-hood? Allow the squire to pay a homage to their knight where the knight earns a semi-permanent royalty of some sort. This could be negotiated between the players and could include things such as looted currency, faction, or harvested materials. Allow players to add to their homage pledge as time goes on to ensure that the knight fulfills their duties, perhaps in .5% increments, up to a maximum amount, perhaps 25 percent? Also allow players to agree to a buy-out so that if a certain amount of resources are accumulated, the homage pledge is severed.
Bulletin Parchments & Merchant Carts
Allow players to post bulletin parchments throughout the world where they can advertise their wares and location. These bulletins would automatically disappear/reappear while the merchant is settled at a predetermined location. If they leave that location, the bulletin parchment would temporarily disappear until the merchant player returns and re-enters "merchant mode." This prevents people from traveling to the end of the rainbow only to find a pot of dust. These bulletin parchments would only last a specific amount of time and could be upgraded by using higher quality parchments. Perhaps merchant carts can be upgraded via player outposts?
I think a player - if they want - should be able to log off in a merchants stall to sell goods etc. But there should be no travelling mode for players. I DO like the idea of traveling merchants but they should be NPCs and they should be willing to buy loot.
Post Offices
Much like localized banks or market places, perhaps the mail functionality could also be localized to some degree? Perhaps players can mail their goods to further away locations at a higher cost, but they could only be picked up at specific locations? This would require a greater deal of communication/interaction between players and create a more dynamic, living world.
I agree. I really think there should be players acting as a FedEx business. I actually DID this in EQI when Kunark first opened. I managed to set my bind point above the pot room in TimDeep. I got paid because I could pop from city to city in very little time. I delivered items for pay. I think this could still work for porting characters (wizards/druids).
Taverns, Innes, Villages, oh my!
I think these kind of gathering places should be strategically placed around the world and that they should be semi-close to dungeons or other points of interest. Rather than players meeting up at the dungeon entrance itself, offer some sort of incentive to meet at these locations so that the players have an opportunity to form important social bonds while they travel to their desired destination. Potential incentives include temporary out of combat hp/mana regens or repeatable caravan quests where groups can escort an NPC from the tavern/inne/village to whatever dungeon/point of interest that is nearby. The rewards for these quests should be very small, perhaps faction based, or one of the temporary resources that I mentioned in the perception category. These can only be completed once per day.
There are also plenty of wonderful ideas for these kind of gathering places in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4778/how-about-them-inns
AWESOME idea!
Xxar said:Buy-Orders - I like this idea, the ability to say im willing to pay x for a specific item. If there is a time associated for it to remain viable, perhaps a deposit of the amount for x amount of days that it remains active.
Achievements - There is a entire thread on achievements. IMO I think any future discussion on this, needs to be directed there.
Reputation - Do not want , not matter what the limitations are even weekly allows results to be skewed and abused. Players need for form there own personal opinions.
Crafting - We really can not discuss this without knowing what the base crafting system involves. We have no clue if there is "rare" mats and or combines already.
Perception - I rather this become some sort of class based ability or spell that you target indivdual mobs to gain "information" about.
Knight/Squire System - Do not want , this will be abused and lead to multiple accounts to gain the bonus. Anything that resembles a recruit a friend program needs to not have a game based bonus.
Bulletin Parchments & Merchant Carts - I think this ties into Buy-Orders , alot depends on what type of market based system we have. There is not enough information to give any kind of pro or con until that point.
Post Offices - I have no problem with this on the condition it is not instant , perhaps even going into a previous discussed messenger system in another thread.
Taverns, Innes, Villages, oh my! - If it is used and once again we do not know specifics so hard to give feedback. I want there to be a plat sink involved, also alot depends on if there is a bind type of spell available. If here is a bind type of spell , then my answer is no , since it will reduce the interdependence required of the class associated to bind specific classes/players to locations.
As far as me mentioning achievements on this thread, I think it's okay. This isn't about a true achievement system. This isn't taking into account exploration, questing, crafting, etc. This is something that could be exclusive to community involvement and I do not think it would be appropriate to take this conversation to that thread as it's an entirely different topic. It has been stated by the powers that be that we are all challenged to help come up with ideas to build our community, keep it engaged, and find ways to continue expanding it. Ideas that encourage player interaction, communication, and a desire to be help break the new generation into hardcore tendencies is what this thread is about.
In regards to the reputation system, I would like to put something in perspective. Just because a player or two gets caught cheating doesen't mean that the system isn't worthwhile. It's very easy to set guidelines where good behavior is expected, and it's also very easy to observe patterns. Spell out that if someone is caught abusing the system that they risk losing their benefit. As far as the rewards themselves go, why couldn't it be something as simple as a "helpful" star on their character profile? Something like this is used in League of Legends when X amount of players vote you as helpful after the game. The reward doesen't need to provide any benefit in the game whatsoever, but rather simple acknowledgement that a player is considered a helpful person in the community.
I refuse to settle and accept that a reputation system wouldn't work because of a few bad apples. Player recognition is very important and there are people out there who will literally go out of their way to be helpful to new players to earn that "helpful achievement badge." Should new players miss out on this potentially awesome experience because a couple unhelpful people try to earn the badge under false pretenses? Absolutely not. Are you going to have less hype for this game if there is a reputation system where people can cast a single vote per week? Sounds a bit over reactive to me. The world doesen't stop just because someone gets caught cheating ... the cheaters just need to be dealt with and the rest of the world continues on with their day.
As far as the knight/squire system, I'm not sure what you are even talking about. This isn't a recruit a friend program at all. I'm not sure if you even read my description of how it would work because it's literally a completely different concept where people can seek each other out in game and form this bond. I don't see any way that something like this could be abused other than maybe a squire making a deal with a knight that they might later regret. This can be combated by implementing a hard cap on the maximum homage percentage.
This may just be me but I don't like systems where people are rewarded for kindness or being helpful by that same system. It feels rather patronizing, and personally I really prefer people just being kind and helpful because they actually are kind and helpful. I'd like the latter better both on the giving and the receiving end. Esp in a setting where socializing and grouping play such a big role I feel (I hope anyway :D) this won't be an issue, it'll be rewarding as it is. And I'd worry when rewarding it, that it would lead to people being pressured into being helped or 'squired', simply for the rewards. That would defeat the purpose in my mind :).
I do really enjoy some of your other suggestions. I'm hoping perception will encompass a rich system, more than 'questlike stuff'. I'm curious about it, it seems like it has so much potential. I'd love purpose to inns (or many more than one), it would be great to assemble in them quite naturally. There's the issue with ongoing groups in a dungeon and those needing replacement, and how inns could be tied into that instead of sitting and waiting at the zoneline like in EQ. I guess that really depends on how LFG and LFreplacement will be handled.
Nanoushka said:This may just be me but I don't like systems where people are rewarded for kindness or being helpful by that same system. It feels rather patronizing, and personally I really prefer people just being kind and helpful because they actually are kind and helpful. I'd like the latter better both on the giving and the receiving end. Esp in a setting where socializing and grouping play such a big role I feel (I hope anyway :D) this won't be an issue, it'll be rewarding as it is. And I'd worry when rewarding it, that it would lead to people being pressured into being helped or 'squired', simply for the rewards. That would defeat the purpose in my mind :).
I do really enjoy some of your other suggestions. I'm hoping perception will encompass a rich system, more than 'questlike stuff'. I'm curious about it, it seems like it has so much potential. I'd love purpose to inns (or many more than one), it would be great to assemble in them quite naturally. There's the issue with ongoing groups in a dungeon and those needing replacement, and how inns could be tied into that instead of sitting and waiting at the zoneline like in EQ. I guess that really depends on how LFG and LFreplacement will be handled.
I agree that having these things feel organic is very important, and that promoting these systems in game probably isn't the best route. I would also suggest that any incentive associated with being helpful or whatever (achievement and reputation) literally be nothing more than some sort of badge of recognition. Perhaps someone could earn a green helpful star for advancing through the achievement system, and a red helpful star for advancing through reputation. It's a tried and true method that I have seen in several games. I only posted this list because Brad said that it was a community goal to come up with ideas on how to accomplish specific goals. If any one of these ideas are adopted then it would have been well worth the effort. I am intrigued by many of them, but if I had to choose 3 to make the cut, I would say having buy orders would be #1 on the list. #2 would be harnessing the power of taverns, innes, and villages. #3 would be the knight/squire system.
I feel that all 3 of these could have a strong impact and the first two in particular are completely organic methods of encouraging interaction that have no tangible reward or incentive associated with them other than interaction itself. When it comes to the knight/squire system, I feel that there would be a strong demand for both roles. This would give players many different options in regards to who they form that bond with and reinforces the notion of experienced players fostering a helpful relationship with others. If a player isn't happy with their counterpart, they could easily move on and replace them with someone else.
I am sure that some tweaking is in order but the underlying concept itself is pretty solid. One thing I think would be cool when it comes to knights is some sort of appearance award that could be earned after successfully helping X amount of squires reach X amount of goals. It could even be an appearance item for their mount, or a crest that they can place on their cloak. Knights, for me, would feel like organic game guides. If someone wanted to offer their knightly services for free, that should still be possible. To encourage more people to participate in the system, I think it makes really good sense to open up player-driven negotiations. It allows players to create their own goals/quests and provides a vessel-hub for them to be realized.
Buy orders, reminds me of Eve. Good buy/sell/contract system there.
Reputation, I will pass on this. Wreaks of reddit culture and generally upvote/downvotes are always abused for the wrong reasons. No thank you in any system.
Crafting, I would agree. It would be awesome if dragons dropped components rather than items so that we could bring them to crafters and get our amazing loot.
Perception, not a fan of that suggestion. Best to not hint at what loot type is available, it just creates a sniping atmosphere.
Knight/squire, no thanks in any system. If we are going to do this, just let me drop my level to play with my friends. Or I can find some other way to power level them.
Bulletin/Merchant cart, that's getting close to an auction house minus the "buy item" feature right? Would these bulletins be posted in a bazaar or something? We could avoid this entirely by having pre-determined buy/sell locations by the community. Like EC or Gfay in EQ.
Post offices, meh - I like the sound of it but what is the purpose? Really? Is there mail? Why not a mail box? Banks are not localized as this isn't a player crafted economy, why should mail be localized?
Taverns/Inns - I totally agree. I did like how WoW used taverns and inns although I wasn't a fan of having to be in one to get rest xp as I hated the rest xp concept. Having places of gathering is important. Maybe using the taverns and inns as a means to link all of the bulletins or the auctions? This way you don't limit the auction site to one area in the world and can auction from many sites? Or is that too similar to an auction house?
Rogue said:Buy orders, reminds me of Eve. Good buy/sell/contract system there.
Reputation, I will pass on this. Wreaks of reddit culture and generally upvote/downvotes are always abused for the wrong reasons. No thank you in any system.
Crafting, I would agree. It would be awesome if dragons dropped components rather than items so that we could bring them to crafters and get our amazing loot.
Perception, not a fan of that suggestion. Best to not hint at what loot type is available, it just creates a sniping atmosphere.
Knight/squire, no thanks in any system. If we are going to do this, just let me drop my level to play with my friends. Or I can find some other way to power level them.
Bulletin/Merchant cart, that's getting close to an auction house minus the "buy item" feature right? Would these bulletins be posted in a bazaar or something? We could avoid this entirely by having pre-determined buy/sell locations by the community. Like EC or Gfay in EQ.
Post offices, meh - I like the sound of it but what is the purpose? Really? Is there mail? Why not a mail box? Banks are not localized as this isn't a player crafted economy, why should mail be localized?
Taverns/Inns - I totally agree. I did like how WoW used taverns and inns although I wasn't a fan of having to be in one to get rest xp as I hated the rest xp concept. Having places of gathering is important. Maybe using the taverns and inns as a means to link all of the bulletins or the auctions? This way you don't limit the auction site to one area in the world and can auction from many sites? Or is that too similar to an auction house?
The purpose behind the majority of these ideas is to create environments that will encourage organic player to player interaction.
"Knight/squire, no thanks in any system. If we are going to do this, just let me drop my level to play with my friends. Or I can find some other way to power level them."
When I think about this system, I don't imagine it would be intended for people who have a bunch of friends already. This would be a system designed to encourage experienced veteran players to help onboard new players. It incentivizes players who may not know each other to reach out and form a relationship. When a new players enters the game late, they don't have much to offer anybody so unless they stumble upon an extremely kind and helpful person, they may have a tough time figuring out their way. This idea allows players to leverage their future earning potential and use it as a resource to attract veteran players to come and help them out.
I really liked how FFXI created an environment where veteran players mingled with new players due to their subclass system, but I do recall plenty of instances where advanced players would try to group with fellow advanced players to make the most efficient use of their time. If this were to be implemented, I feel there is a good chance that a veteran player could take advantage of the progeny system while also helping out a new player from the ground up. Assuming that this will just happen all on it's own sounds overly hopeful to me. There are always plenty of max level players running around with a fair amount of free time looking to sell their services. Since new players have nothing to offer them, these type of players have a natural barrier preventing them from connecting. This idea can bridge that gap and also promotes a long term relationship where the veteran mentors the new player.
"Reputation, I will pass on this. Wreaks of reddit culture and generally upvote/downvotes are always abused for the wrong reasons. No thank you in any system."
I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread.
"Perception, not a fan of that suggestion. Best to not hint at what loot type is available, it just creates a sniping atmosphere."
We're going to learn that information anyway. It doesen't need to spell anything out ... it's just a way to add fun and flavor to the mix. There is nothing wrong with hints ... especially when you're talking about a system called perception! This one makes too much sense to me, sorry. I am the kind of person that refuses to let a bad experience from another game, or the fear of sniping/training/kill-stealing, etc have any impact on whether or not an idea can facilitate an environment where most good people can prosper.
"Post offices, meh - I like the sound of it but what is the purpose? Really? Is there mail? Why not a mail box? Banks are not localized as this isn't a player crafted economy, why should mail be localized?"
My understanding is that it's quite possible that the banks will indeed be localized, as well as whatever type of market place we see in game. Those were two major reasons why I also included the mail system as I believe all of these should have a consistent feel across the board.
oneADseven said:Xxar said:Buy-Orders - I like this idea, the ability to say im willing to pay x for a specific item. If there is a time associated for it to remain viable, perhaps a deposit of the amount for x amount of days that it remains active.
Achievements - There is a entire thread on achievements. IMO I think any future discussion on this, needs to be directed there.
Reputation - Do not want , not matter what the limitations are even weekly allows results to be skewed and abused. Players need for form there own personal opinions.
Crafting - We really can not discuss this without knowing what the base crafting system involves. We have no clue if there is "rare" mats and or combines already.
Perception - I rather this become some sort of class based ability or spell that you target indivdual mobs to gain "information" about.
Knight/Squire System - Do not want , this will be abused and lead to multiple accounts to gain the bonus. Anything that resembles a recruit a friend program needs to not have a game based bonus.
Bulletin Parchments & Merchant Carts - I think this ties into Buy-Orders , alot depends on what type of market based system we have. There is not enough information to give any kind of pro or con until that point.
Post Offices - I have no problem with this on the condition it is not instant , perhaps even going into a previous discussed messenger system in another thread.
Taverns, Innes, Villages, oh my! - If it is used and once again we do not know specifics so hard to give feedback. I want there to be a plat sink involved, also alot depends on if there is a bind type of spell available. If here is a bind type of spell , then my answer is no , since it will reduce the interdependence required of the class associated to bind specific classes/players to locations.
As far as me mentioning achievements on this thread, I think it's okay. This isn't about a true achievement system. This isn't taking into account exploration, questing, crafting, etc. This is something that could be exclusive to community involvement and I do not think it would be appropriate to take this conversation to that thread as it's an entirely different topic. It has been stated by the powers that be that we are all challenged to help come up with ideas to build our community, keep it engaged, and find ways to continue expanding it. Ideas that encourage player interaction, communication, and a desire to be help break the new generation into hardcore tendencies is what this thread is about.
In regards to the reputation system, I would like to put something in perspective. Just because a player or two gets caught cheating doesen't mean that the system isn't worthwhile. It's very easy to set guidelines where good behavior is expected, and it's also very easy to observe patterns. Spell out that if someone is caught abusing the system that they risk losing their benefit. As far as the rewards themselves go, why couldn't it be something as simple as a "helpful" star on their character profile? Something like this is used in League of Legends when X amount of players vote you as helpful after the game. The reward doesen't need to provide any benefit in the game whatsoever, but rather simple acknowledgement that a player is considered a helpful person in the community.
I refuse to settle and accept that a reputation system wouldn't work because of a few bad apples. Player recognition is very important and there are people out there who will literally go out of their way to be helpful to new players to earn that "helpful achievement badge." Should new players miss out on this potentially awesome experience because a couple unhelpful people try to earn the badge under false pretenses? Absolutely not. Are you going to have less hype for this game if there is a reputation system where people can cast a single vote per week? Sounds a bit over reactive to me. The world doesen't stop just because someone gets caught cheating ... the cheaters just need to be dealt with and the rest of the world continues on with their day.
As far as the knight/squire system, I'm not sure what you are even talking about. This isn't a recruit a friend program at all. I'm not sure if you even read my description of how it would work because it's literally a completely different concept where people can seek each other out in game and form this bond. I don't see any way that something like this could be abused other than maybe a squire making a deal with a knight that they might later regret. This can be combated by implementing a hard cap on the maximum homage percentage.
I stand by my feed back on the reputation comment , I am against it. I think players are capable of thinking and forming there own opinions and there is no point in a "fishing" for likes feature or the ability to smear someone in game even more so when it has the ability to be abused.
The knight squire system , comes off as a recruit a friend to me in the sense of ill help you and get a reward for it.
But as a previous poster wrote , there is no need to reward you for helping people. That reward leads me directly to my comment on why, I stated no. That feature will be used and abused if it is considered.
Reputation may as well not be on the list for me. A complete no for me and VR doesn't seem to want one either as they have stated a number of times according to the search function.
"We have discussed this a few times before and our answer is the same, we will not be implementing a rating or ranking system to judge fellow group members/players as it can just as easily be abused and used against innocent people plus we do not want to encourage a culture of judging others in our game, we will look at other ways to mitigate poor player behaviour, one of which is the report system and having GMs available to help resolve serious issues."
I do like the idea of bulletin boards though. I vaguely remember stumbling upon one or two in EQ but they were almost never used/known.
Xxar said:oneADseven said:Xxar said:Buy-Orders - I like this idea, the ability to say im willing to pay x for a specific item. If there is a time associated for it to remain viable, perhaps a deposit of the amount for x amount of days that it remains active.
Achievements - There is a entire thread on achievements. IMO I think any future discussion on this, needs to be directed there.
Reputation - Do not want , not matter what the limitations are even weekly allows results to be skewed and abused. Players need for form there own personal opinions.
Crafting - We really can not discuss this without knowing what the base crafting system involves. We have no clue if there is "rare" mats and or combines already.
Perception - I rather this become some sort of class based ability or spell that you target indivdual mobs to gain "information" about.
Knight/Squire System - Do not want , this will be abused and lead to multiple accounts to gain the bonus. Anything that resembles a recruit a friend program needs to not have a game based bonus.
Bulletin Parchments & Merchant Carts - I think this ties into Buy-Orders , alot depends on what type of market based system we have. There is not enough information to give any kind of pro or con until that point.
Post Offices - I have no problem with this on the condition it is not instant , perhaps even going into a previous discussed messenger system in another thread.
Taverns, Innes, Villages, oh my! - If it is used and once again we do not know specifics so hard to give feedback. I want there to be a plat sink involved, also alot depends on if there is a bind type of spell available. If here is a bind type of spell , then my answer is no , since it will reduce the interdependence required of the class associated to bind specific classes/players to locations.
As far as me mentioning achievements on this thread, I think it's okay. This isn't about a true achievement system. This isn't taking into account exploration, questing, crafting, etc. This is something that could be exclusive to community involvement and I do not think it would be appropriate to take this conversation to that thread as it's an entirely different topic. It has been stated by the powers that be that we are all challenged to help come up with ideas to build our community, keep it engaged, and find ways to continue expanding it. Ideas that encourage player interaction, communication, and a desire to be help break the new generation into hardcore tendencies is what this thread is about.
In regards to the reputation system, I would like to put something in perspective. Just because a player or two gets caught cheating doesen't mean that the system isn't worthwhile. It's very easy to set guidelines where good behavior is expected, and it's also very easy to observe patterns. Spell out that if someone is caught abusing the system that they risk losing their benefit. As far as the rewards themselves go, why couldn't it be something as simple as a "helpful" star on their character profile? Something like this is used in League of Legends when X amount of players vote you as helpful after the game. The reward doesen't need to provide any benefit in the game whatsoever, but rather simple acknowledgement that a player is considered a helpful person in the community.
I refuse to settle and accept that a reputation system wouldn't work because of a few bad apples. Player recognition is very important and there are people out there who will literally go out of their way to be helpful to new players to earn that "helpful achievement badge." Should new players miss out on this potentially awesome experience because a couple unhelpful people try to earn the badge under false pretenses? Absolutely not. Are you going to have less hype for this game if there is a reputation system where people can cast a single vote per week? Sounds a bit over reactive to me. The world doesen't stop just because someone gets caught cheating ... the cheaters just need to be dealt with and the rest of the world continues on with their day.
As far as the knight/squire system, I'm not sure what you are even talking about. This isn't a recruit a friend program at all. I'm not sure if you even read my description of how it would work because it's literally a completely different concept where people can seek each other out in game and form this bond. I don't see any way that something like this could be abused other than maybe a squire making a deal with a knight that they might later regret. This can be combated by implementing a hard cap on the maximum homage percentage.
I stand by my feed back on the reputation comment , I am against it. I think players are capable of thinking and forming there own opinions and there is no point in a "fishing" for likes feature or the ability to smear someone in game even more so when it has the ability to be abused.
The knight squire system , comes off as a recruit a friend to me in the sense of ill help you and get a reward for it.
But as a previous poster wrote , there is no need to reward you for helping people. That reward leads me directly to my comment on why, I stated no. That feature will be used and abused if it is considered.
Players wouldn't be able to "smear" anybody as there would be no way to down-vote people. Here is the response I gave to someone else in this thread who shared your concern:
"I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread."
As far as your take on the knight/squire system, I can see your point, but that could be applied to plenty of other systems that have worked perfectly fine. How do you feel about crafting? Do you think crafters decide to just randomly help people without expecting some sort of reward in return? They offer their services for a fee. I am all for the idea of organically driven player to player helpfulness, but where has that gotten us in the last 18 years? There are some out there who do this sort of thing and plenty who don't. If you want a premium service, you should expect to pay someone. If I were a new player, I would appreciate the idea that there was a process in place where I could reach out to players who are offering that kind of premium service rather than hoping to stumble upon a kind soul during my adventurers.
The idea behind the knight/squire system I proposed is equipping new players with an asset that can be used to pay for that premium service since generally they are broke and don't have much to offer, and that's the concept of using future earning potential. I am sorry if you do not like the idea and I am sure there are plenty of others who wouldn't care for it either, but this isn't about you, or them, or me. The question is, for a new player, would you consider using a service like this? If you're an experienced player, would you consider offering this service?
If there is a supply/demand in both of those areas then I don't see why something like this couldn't work. If someone doesen't care to use this service, I also don't see how others who do choose to use it would have any impact on their gameplay. How exactly could something like this be abused? It's not like tangible rewards or income are being circulated into the game. It's taking what these players would generate on their own (time and future earnings) and then reallocating them in a way that makes the relationship mutually beneficial.
Iksar said:Reputation may as well not be on the list for me. A complete no for me and VR doesn't seem to want one either as they have stated a number of times according to the search function.
"We have discussed this a few times before and our answer is the same, we will not be implementing a rating or ranking system to judge fellow group members/players as it can just as easily be abused and used against innocent people plus we do not want to encourage a culture of judging others in our game, we will look at other ways to mitigate poor player behaviour, one of which is the report system and having GMs available to help resolve serious issues."
I do like the idea of bulletin boards though. I vaguely remember stumbling upon one or two in EQ but they were almost never used/known.
That's taking a quote that is being used in a completely different context and then applying it to this idea, while also ignoring a very important fact that has been spelled out quite clearly. There is obviously a huge disconnect with how people view reputation systems. It seems that many players have a preconceived notion that these systems are ripe for abuse, and that's something I can even agree too. There are, however, several games/communities out there that have created reputation systems that actually work quite well and the big difference is that you don't allow players to down-vote others. This way nobody gets judged on poor behavior, nobody targets innocent players, nobody trolls someone they don't like, etc. By making the reward something as simple as a helpful badge, you're also not creating any mega worthwhile incentive that someone would go out of their way to earn.
Unless there is an abusive player out there who finds a way to convince people to upvote him, or creates a bunch of spare accounts (this could be mitigated by requiring a level limit to cast the vote) and votes their character up, how could this be abused? Even if someone does abuse it, what does it matter? If someone is a troll and wastes a ton of their time trying to earn a helpful badge under false pretenses, not only would it be hilarious, but it could potentially go viral on a server as their behavior pattern/helpful badge combo would likely be exposed as a joke within the server community. Taking an excerpt from that quote that would apply to this situation, there would also be GM services available that could deal with these kind of issues and remove the badge if it's deemed appropriate. It isn't hard to observe patterns and see who is cheating the system, especially after the player gets reported for being a troll.
The only scenario I can think of where something like this could backfire would be if a truly troll player out there went out of their way to unscrupulously earn a helpful badge and then strategically used that badge as a way to earn the trust of a new player. Rather than being helpful, they actually do something shady. I don't know exactly how far this could go, but depending on how gullible someone was, maybe the (imposter) helpful person could convince a new player that it's in their best interest to do something that isn't? Even still, how many people are out there like that, in this community? We have an awesome community. I also don't think it's fair to all of the good people out there who would use this system as it's intended to be robbed from the opportunity all because of a few schmucks who ruin the fun for everyone else. You have to get to a point where you take control. Acting terrified of abusive trolls, to me, let's them win the battle. I refuse to accept the idea that we shouldn't take advantage of every opportunity available to encourage player to player interaction, especially when it involves helping new players. When you start letting a rotten player dictate what kind of ideas/systems you're willing to implement, you are essentially handcuffing your own creativity and ambition to their evil ways. That isn't how you win this battle. Do what you need to do and the overwhelming majority of the community, yeah, the good players, will help weed out the trouble makers.
Thats the issue , there is abusive players out there . Also we have no clue what are community will be like. I am not saying it is a bad idea , but it leaves way to many options to be abused that is the problem. The truth is we will become a small part of the community most players do not even go onto forums.
Care to elaborate on how it could be abused? I mentioned what I thought was a potential way it could backfire, but it really doesen't sound like anything that should warrant not using the system to begin with. I'm confident that it's possible to win the battle against abusive players, and really what we should be talking about in that regard is potential account suspension. That's another topic for another thread, though. I get that abusive players exist, but not using an idea like this isn't going to make them go away. Avoiding an idea like this because you're concerned about abusive players is NOT the answer. I can assure you that this is not the mindest that should be taken -- I know of another gameplay mechanic that is 1000000000000x more attractive for griefers to abuse that will be in the game. Again, you don't let trouble makers dictate anything. You deal with them individually and weed them out. If that's going to take a great deal of resources, so be it -- but getting the community vibe on point is going to be well worth it in the beginning middle and end so bring on the striped shirts and make sure they have a nice compensation package because they will play a critical role in holding all of this together.
oneADseven said:Iksar said:Reputation may as well not be on the list for me. A complete no for me and VR doesn't seem to want one either as they have stated a number of times according to the search function.
"We have discussed this a few times before and our answer is the same, we will not be implementing a rating or ranking system to judge fellow group members/players as it can just as easily be abused and used against innocent people plus we do not want to encourage a culture of judging others in our game, we will look at other ways to mitigate poor player behaviour, one of which is the report system and having GMs available to help resolve serious issues."
I do like the idea of bulletin boards though. I vaguely remember stumbling upon one or two in EQ but they were almost never used/known.
That's taking a quote that is being used in a completely different context and then applying it to this idea, while also ignoring a very important fact that has been spelled out quite clearly. There is obviously a huge disconnect with how people view reputation systems. It seems that many players have a preconceived notion that these systems are ripe for abuse, and that's something I can even agree too. There are, however, several games/communities out there that have created reputation systems that actually work quite well and the big difference is that you don't allow players to down-vote others. This way nobody gets judged on poor behavior, nobody targets innocent players, nobody trolls someone they don't like, etc. By making the reward something as simple as a helpful badge, you're also not creating any mega worthwhile incentive that someone would go out of their way to earn.
Unless there is an abusive player out there who finds a way to convince people to upvote him, or creates a bunch of spare accounts (this could be mitigated by requiring a level limit to cast the vote) and votes their character up, how could this be abused? Even if someone does abuse it, what does it matter? If someone is a troll and wastes a ton of their time trying to earn a helpful badge under false pretenses, not only would it be hilarious, but it could potentially go viral on a server as their behavior pattern/helpful badge combo would likely be exposed as a joke within the server community. Taking an excerpt from that quote that would apply to this situation, there would also be GM services available that could deal with these kind of issues and remove the badge if it's deemed appropriate. It isn't hard to observe patterns and see who is cheating the system, especially after the player gets reported for being a troll.
The only scenario I can think of where something like this could backfire would be if a truly troll player out there went out of their way to unscrupulously earn a helpful badge and then strategically used that badge as a way to earn the trust of a new player. Rather than being helpful, they actually do something shady. I don't know exactly how far this could go, but depending on how gullible someone was, maybe the (imposter) helpful person could convince a new player that it's in their best interest to do something that isn't? Even still, how many people are out there like that, in this community? We have an awesome community. I also don't think it's fair to all of the good people out there who would use this system as it's intended to be robbed from the opportunity all because of a few schmucks who ruin the fun for everyone else. You have to get to a point where you take control. Acting terrified of abusive trolls, to me, let's them win the battle. I refuse to accept the idea that we shouldn't take advantage of every opportunity available to encourage player to player interaction, especially when it involves helping new players. When you start letting a rotten player dictate what kind of ideas/systems you're willing to implement, you are essentially handcuffing your own creativity and ambition to their evil ways. That isn't how you win this battle. Do what you need to do and the overwhelming majority of the community, yeah, the good players, will help weed out the trouble makers.
I'm a member of several communities with reputation systems and there is one universal truth amongst them all. They all suck.
People go around down voting people simply because they disagree with them and leave no useful feedback on what they could do to improve. Not a problem you say? If they dislike you as a person they will also follow you around and down vote everything you do even if it is a good idea just becasue they don't like you. Reputation systems are awful. If you could only vote positively then that might be semi-OK but even that sucks because people with low or zero up votes will be ignored by the rest of the community becasue they think something is wrong with them.
I'd hate to see Pantheon have a reputation system it would ruin what is meant to be a nice friendly gaming community by turning into some childish playground battle to see who can get the most positive reputation and to see how low you can down vote those people you dislike.
It would be awful.
What's going on with all of this selective reading? Here is a recap of what has been communicated several times in this thread that for whatever reason several players choose to completely ignore:
#1) (First sentence of how the Reputation system is explained in the OP) -- "Rather than having a reputation system where players can vote people up or down, limit it to up-votes only."
#2) (My response to Rogue) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread."
#3) (First response to Xxar) -- "Players wouldn't be able to "smear" anybody as there would be no way to down-vote people. Here is the response I gave to someone else in this thread who shared your concern:"
#4) (Second response to Xxar) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread." (I literally requoted the same phrase from #2 to illustrate the point)
#5) (Response to Iksar) -- "There is obviously a huge disconnect with how people view reputation systems. It seems that many players have a preconceived notion that these systems are ripe for abuse, and that's something I can even agree too. There are, however, several games/communities out there that have created reputation systems that actually work quite well and the big difference is that you don't allow players to down-vote others."
Xxar said:
I will be paying for likes and if I dont like you , I will be paying for down votes... that simple enough for you ?
The system would not allow players to down-vote others. If you want to spend money on a badge to earn reputation under false pretenses, not only is that shady, but it's also hilarious. This reputation system isn't designed to showcase skill or talent. It's literally a way to recognize players who are helpful to others. If your goal in purchasing these up-votes is to be recognized as someone who is likely to take the extra time to help a newb out, good for you. That's your reward, congratulations. If you plan on spending a bunch of time helping out newbs then hey, get that badge man! I'll even toss you one of my votes because that's awesome, and you won't even have to buy it!
If your goal is to cheat the system and earn a badge because you think it will have any kind of correlation to how your skill/talent would be perceived, you'd be in for a rude awakening. This isn't going to help you get into a group or raid. Well, maybe it could, but it would be entry level content either way and the expectation would be for you to take charge and be "helpful." This isn't a perk, this is a way for a player to earn a designation to distinguish themself as someone who is willing to take on extra responsibility with helping others.
Is that simple enough for you?
I dont think you are getting the point , it wont happen. It has already been said there not going to do it.
You wanted a example, I will buy votes. It has nothing to do with cheating the system , the fact it can be done makes it broken.
I think you keep trying to overlook that point.
oneADseven said:#1) (First sentence of how the Reputation system is explained in the OP) -- "Rather than having a reputation system where players can vote people up or down, limit it to up-votes only."
I did mention in post about up vote only systems. If a new player comes in with zero up votes then other players will ignore them because they think they are not worth having around.
oneADseven said:#2) (My response to Rogue) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread."
Casting one vote a week seems completely pointless. If you limit it that much you might as well just not bother at all. In another game I play there is a bot that allows players to give positive reputation to another player. There are already pairs of players that just automatically give each other positive reputation every time it refreshes so they both get the most reputation they can. I can see the same thing happening in Pantheon.
oneADseven said:#3) (First response to Xxar) -- "Players wouldn't be able to "smear" anybody as there would be no way to down-vote people. Here is the response I gave to someone else in this thread who shared your concern:"
Just because there is no down vote option it will just go the other way. Anyone without a large amount of positive reputation will be looked down upon because people will think they are a bad player when in reality they might just not be that popular.
oneADseven said:#4) (Second response to Xxar) -- "I mentioned that players would only be able cast 1 reputation vote per week. There would be no down votes. I don't see how that helps foster player interaction which was the goal of this thread." (I literally requoted the same phrase from #2 to illustrate the point)
My point remains. People with no or low positive ratings will just be looked down upon and maybe even refused the opportunity to group with other players.
oneADseven said:#5) (Response to Iksar) -- "There is obviously a huge disconnect with how people view reputation systems. It seems that many players have a preconceived notion that these systems are ripe for abuse, and that's something I can even agree too. There are, however, several games/communities out there that have created reputation systems that actually work quite well and the big difference is that you don't allow players to down-vote others."
I can't express in words on this forum (well I can but it will probably get me banned) how bad I think any form of reputation system would be for the game. It would turn what should be a nice welcoming and friendly community into one which is all about having the most amount of reputation points. People will say things because they think it'll earn them reputation points (i.e they will be brown nosers). People without high positive reputations will be ignored. They might not be able to join or guilds or get groups. It is just the worst idea I can possibly imagine. We want a community focused game where everyone can have fun and enjoy meeting other people not the cesspool of trying to game the reputation system to look more popular than you really are.
Xxar said:I dont think you are getting the point , it wont happen. It has already been said there not going to do it.
You wanted a example, I will buy votes. It has nothing to do with cheating the system , the fact it can be done makes it broken.
I think you keep trying to overlook that point.
When I started this thread, it was a direct response to something Brad recently shared with the community. I'd like to highlight an excerpt for you to consider:
"I think if we're careful, think these things through (an opposed to just voicing opposition in a reactionary manner), think outside the box, and believe that most or all of these challenges are solvable, we can really break some new ground and end up with an MMO full of community, grouping, RL friends, guilds, etc. that is also rewarding and challenging as all heck."
That's what motivates me. I truly believe that embracing an "outside the box" type of mindset can help solve some of the potential challenges that we face as a community. I refuse to accept that reputation systems as a whole are considered "broken." I acknowledge that players can "cheat" the system by purchasing votes, but again, so what? What does someone gain from having a "helpful" designation? Why couldn't the designation read something like "This player has distinguished themself as someone who enjoys helping new players become familiarized with the game." If someone wants to cheat the system to earn that designation, is it truly the end of the world? What's the worst thing that can happen? Is the risk of that scenario so severe that the concept should be scrapped altogether, effectively eliminating all of the truly helpful players in the community from being able to earn the designation? Should paranoia impede prosperity? I don't think so.
Now, I do respect the fact that the value of this designation could be watered down if players who are not helpful go out of their way to earn it. I think there are ways to mitigate this by limiting how often people can vote and adjusting the minimum amount of votes necessary for the designation. Let's say it's 100 votes -- are you still going to pay for these? What if it's 200? 300? How important is this designation to you? Does the verbiage of the designation impact how far you are willing to go to cheat the system? If the designation is nothing more than a helpful green star on your character profile page, are you still going to go out of your way to pay people for their votes? If these votes are only once per week, how would you go about advertising your desire to purchase those votes as it would probably be considered shady by most other players? Once you get it, what do you expect it to do for you?
I'd like to echo another sentiment one more time for additional clarity on how I feel about all of this. Should paranoia impede prosperity? What's the worst thing that can happen if people cheat the system? Is no helpful badge better than what some would consider a watered down helpful badge? Maybe that is the case, but as someone who is way too over zealous with my optimism, I like to think that the good guys will win at the end of the movie.
oneADseven said:Xxar said:I dont think you are getting the point , it wont happen. It has already been said there not going to do it.
You wanted a example, I will buy votes. It has nothing to do with cheating the system , the fact it can be done makes it broken.
I think you keep trying to overlook that point.
When I started this thread, it was a direct response to something Brad recently shared with the community. I'd like to highlight an excerpt for you to consider:
"I think if we're careful, think these things through (an opposed to just voicing opposition in a reactionary manner), think outside the box, and believe that most or all of these challenges are solvable, we can really break some new ground and end up with an MMO full of community, grouping, RL friends, guilds, etc. that is also rewarding and challenging as all heck."
That's what motivates me. I truly believe that embracing an "outside the box" type of mindset can help solve some of the potential challenges that we face as a community. I refuse to accept that reputation systems as a whole are considered "broken." I acknowledge that players can "cheat" the system by purchasing votes, but again, so what? What does someone gain from having a "helpful" designation? Why couldn't the designation read something like "This player has distinguished themself as someone who enjoys helping new players become familiarized with the game." If someone wants to cheat the system to earn that designation, is it truly the end of the world? What's the worst thing that can happen? Is the risk of that scenario so severe that the concept should be scrapped altogether, effectively eliminating all of the truly helpful players in the community from being able to earn the designation? Should paranoia impede prosperity? I don't think so.
Now, I do respect the fact that the value of this designation could be watered down if players who are not helpful go out of their way to earn it. I think there are ways to mitigate this by limiting how often people can vote and adjusting the minimum amount of votes necessary for the designation. Let's say it's 100 votes -- are you still going to pay for these? What if it's 200? 300? How important is this designation to you? Does the verbiage of the designation impact how far you are willing to go to cheat the system? If the designation is nothing more than a helpful green star on your character profile page, are you still going to go out of your way to pay people for their votes? If these votes are only once per week, how would you go about advertising your desire to purchase those votes as it would probably be considered shady by most other players? Once you get it, what do you expect it to do for you?
I'd like to echo another sentiment one more time for additional clarity on how I feel about all of this. Should paranoia impede prosperity? What's the worst thing that can happen if people cheat the system? Is no helpful badge better than what some would consider a watered down helpful badge? Maybe that is the case, but as someone who is way too over zealous with my optimism, I like to think that the good guys will win at the end of the movie.
I agree that thinking outside the box is a good idea but I fail to see how having a reputation system which is on numerous websites and in a lot of games is thinking outside of the box. If anything thinking of a reputation system is thinking inside the box. It has been used so much in the past. It is hardly an original idea.
Why not think of other ways that don't require a reputation system to help build a friendly and helpful community? I don't see why we need a reputation system at all to do that. I've played many games in the past and none of them had reputation systems and I've met some of the most helpful players imaginable in them.
What we need to do is figure out a way to promote the community and helpfulness without needing to resort to a reputation system at all. That is thinking outside of the box.
Unfortunately I don't have any immediate solutions to that particular problem. I never really had any problems with the community aspect in EQ1. A shared goal of reaching max level and the requirement to work together to get to that goal generally forces people to work well together and to help each other out.