Longshanks is the King of crafters ...has crafted in every game that you can rub two sticks togther and get a new longbow...
loved vanguards crafting and the eq2 beta crafting... At launch the crafting in eq2 was greatly changed aka (dummed down) loved the more indepth it was like you was fighting every hammer blow ...
Longshanks King of England!!
I love crafting in MMORPG's. I enjoy systems that require investment / effort / time to master and and produce things desired by the community.
A successful system in my eyes is one where master teir crafters in a profession are not overly common and as such one can take a lot of pride from having strived to reach that level, and where the things produced are of value to the community.
Using EQ1 as an example I thought jewel crafting seemed very good (although I never did this myself) and 1999 blacksmithing was lackluster (items produced of limited desirability) but this could have changed in later years.
I went and played some time locked progression last year - and the new spell crafting system was ok as well - hard to master, but once you did you could provide a valued service to your guild and community.
Depending on how many crafting professions you have verse how many can be on one character, I will create the appropriate number of professions. In EverQuest I only had one crafter because you could be everything on one character yet I had 6 characters on the server. In EverQuest ][ it was one crafting profession per character so I had 9 characters all maximum adventure and crafters. When I went to World of Warcraft, I had 8 crafting characters all maximum adventure level and crafting. My final game Star Wars: The Old Republic, even though there where only 6 professions, I had 22 characters all maximum adventure and crafting level.
Of all the crafting systems, I liked EverQuest ][ the best. It was like a mini-game where you had to literary fight the progress or die trying on occassion. Many times you would see corpses next to a crafting station because people failed to counter a effect and it exploded on them killing them. Star Wars: The Old Republic didn't require any type of crafting station, but what it did do was add artificial timers that increased as you leveled up. So while you adventured you could be crafting in the background and some items took upwards of 4-5 hours real time to complete (note you where not the crafter, while you had the profession on your character, items where made by your crew.)
My least favorite was EverQuest and World of Warcraft crafting. While in EverQuest you could be all professions on one, my favorite, all you did was take components put them in your crafting item click combine and you passed or failed. This didn't feel like crafting to me. To me crafting is how it was in EverQuest ][, a mini-game that could cost you your life if you failed. In the end I craft because I want to advance my knowledge of the game and help people out. I don't look at crafting as a way to make a profit, as most of my money and usually I am in the top of the richest people in games because of adventuring.
I am a crafter. My problem is end game most crafted items are useless next to dropped items. My request: Please add one item slot for each type of crafting and make best in slot for that slot be a crafted item. For weaspon smith, make the ammo or ranged slot have drops in game for it but only a weaspon smith can make best in slot for it. Jewlers, give them a pendant slot and again have items in game drop for that slot but again best in slot from the jewlers. This will keep trade craft special and needed. There are other ways to do that but IMO this would be a gold standard. This would have players seaching out crafters even at end game. Last thing I want to do is max out a crafting skill only to never use it because I picked a useless trade skill. In most MMOs I have played 3/4 of the trade skills fall under that, not needed end game.
Absolutely a crafter, but what I am not a fan of in the MMO's I have played in the past is that crafted things rarely stood up to raided/quested items etc. Would love to see Grandmaster Crafter title actually mean something and see crafting be a sideways progressions thing perhaps. Like the resist gears for smithing needed to resist the heat maybe. I am hoping that with Pantheon that some player crafted gear can compete with BIS raid gear, and that players can craft some amazing items
Another thing I am hoping for in Pantheon would be to make crafting not such a cookie cutter recipe template thing for everyone. Some variety in crafting so that no one player or account could hope to ever have all crafting skills mastered unless they spent years and years doing it and doing it on different characters/accounts. If every character can craft the same stuff and learn all skill trades, I lose interest. In a way it could be said that crafting balance and too much of it would be no more fun than too much class balance. Always leave 'em wanting more, just like in the entertainment industry
I like the idea being that Cooking for instance could be broken down into sub-skills, ie mixologist that works with alcohols and makes potion-like drinks that bolster confidence and boost attributes or drinks that make a warrior immune to fear for "X" period of time, or a potion-like drink that could charm and NPC for a short time if given in trade window, or specialist chef that makes stat increase food, lots off potential for ideas here. Of course alchemy and potion making and other skill trades would still be their own skill. Metalworking could be broken down into sub-skills such as weaponmaster, armorsmith, metalworker(that makes items other than weapons or armor, lanterns, jewelry etc) and other sub-skills, just to throw a few examples out there. Maybe there could be a cookie cutter basics of cooking/blacksmithing/flatching/crafting that everyone can learn, and once learned, you can choose one or two of a bunch of sub-skills that allow you to specialize and be a little more unique as a crafter?
I also enjoyed making my own arrows as a ranger or group puller, I think it's cool when you have the option to craft things to enhance the game, but I definitely do not enjoy anything that feels too much like work. Enough of that in RL
Would be interesting to see MSRP on items too, just for laughs to see what some items get inflated to over the years after release
Anyways, just throwing some ideas out there for the devs to consider
I really enjoy crafting, and I always engage in it in MMOs. I would go so far as to say I would be uninterested in an MMO that didnt have it.
I prefer that the game not limit the number of crafts I can enjoy on a single character. I tend to invest heavily in one character, and I want to experience all that crafting has available. I understand that this can run counter to interdependence though, so I get why this game might choose to set some limits down. If that's necessary I would prefer that we all be able to experience every sphere of crafting on a single character, and that the limits manifest in masteries for limited spheres. That way there's only one or two spheres a single character can really excell at and have the potential to make every single item in that sphere, but still be able to supply themselves with mundane components for others. Like being able to make metal studs with smithing to be able to craft leather armor with leatherworking.
Why do I enjoy it? Man, that's the million dollar question, right? I like being able to work toward creating my own upgrades for slots I've not been able to fill thru adventuring. I really like the buy/sell/trade aspect as well, trying to make lucrative transactions that help me get cash for other things I'd like to acquire. But there's also a (probably ridiculous) zen in just skilling up and clicking combine a few hundred times and each and every time hoping it works out in my favor. It's almost like pulling on a slot machine (which, ironically, I find no pleasure whatsoever in).
In every game that allows me to solo craft, I have done everything that can be done, solo. Every tradeskill, no matter how time/material/money consuming. I love that stuff, and consider it a baseline for effectiveness. I love the harvesting, refining, crafting, enchanting loops that most games have. Very satisfying time sinks to increase personal player power.
In every game that requires me to pay ten times or more to another player for components in the name of "interdependence" I have done zero crafting. Being screwed over by Enchanters, in EQ1, for example? Not paying for that privilege. :) I did level up an alt Enchanter, but it seemed so silly to do that just for crafting, and bypassed the whole mechanic, really.
I love adventuring with other players because we're all working together co-operatiely. I hate crafting with other players, because we're all stabbing each other in the back. Sure, it's different with guildmates, but I still hated asking them to make 100 , 1000 or more of something because skillups required it.
I have long said that my preference would be that players can make interdependent components cheaper than NPC's, but that NPC's should charge ten times the base cost, and NPC's sell them via guilds/factions. Then that establishes the ceiling for "screwing over" other players, and it offers a bit of market control. But just a bit. ;)
I'm also a big proponent of giving raw materials to crafting/refining/harvesting NPC's, and have them charge ridiculously high amounts of gold to perform the actions/combines, same as another player would. If you have patience, friends, guildmates, etc, you get it cheaper. If not, you can still get it, you just pay more. Great currency sink.
Yes, but usually only as a secondary thing. And that's if the crafting system is done well. Overall, I'll craft:
- When I'm already max level and well geared and there aren't many other ways to make my character the best it can be
- When I don't have enough playtime to get a full group together
- As a necessary means of progressing a quest
- When I'm bored
- When I'm just feeling lazy and don't want to risk dying
Adventuring and leveling up definitely comes first for me, although I have a feeling that crafting and adventuring will be very intertwined in Pantheon, so it may not be able to take as much of a backseat as it does in other games.
It's a great side activity to do when you don't have time to group.
I like when crafting offers meaningfull rewards that are hard to obtain, and a sense of progression. Being one of the only crafters in the server with acces to an exclusive and sought after recipe is awesome.
I love crafting...EQ I had about 6 characters maxed out in all fields and did every major arc for tradeskill quests all the way up to The broken Mirror when I retired. EQ2 I have just recently picked up and enjoyed the "mini" game aspect of that as well. Lotro I also had about 8 characters maxed out in their applicable profession and kept the Guild recipe timers on cool down (which took some coordination to keep up with).
Overall opinion of what crafting should do for you is to add value to your current build, be it through an augmention raw stats or a focus effect for a weak slot or environmental bonus's. Rare drops for those extra kickers is always fun and making the equipment marketable to the player economy is also key.
Things I don't like about crafting....the gear is always obsoleted by drops by the time you get to wear it so it really makes crafting be a labor of love vs a viable gearing path for a main character.
Ideas to resolve my main issue! Allow drops at the end of a group dungeon to be those rare materials that make great gear (slightly up from the level equivalent drops), so folks who could care less about Tradeskilling gleefully pass on a rare material for the instant gear up in the chest....this allows the tradeskiller to make their up after a bit more thought and effort..which IMHO should be rewarded. This can also be applied to solo type drops and raid drops as well, but would require some thought to ensure they don't skew things too much. Specifically, the amount of resources that drop for a raid... if you go for quantity of drops reduce the quality of the end gear...if you make the tradeskill material drop rare make the quality of the end gear higher.
I always craft but rarely at the highest level. I do it for ...yes I am serious ....fun, not for profit, I rarely sell anything I make.
In Pantheon I really hope that crafting can be done based on materials one harvests and doesn't require materials from raids and dungeons.
Since I like to solo more than most of us, and since I have a sad feeling that Pantheon will just give lip service to having soloable content after the early levels, I amy spend MOST of my time crafting and harvesting. Unless the game proves to be really awful, which I do not expect, I intend to spend a lot of time there and crafting may be the way to do it.
dorotea said:I always craft but rarely at the highest level. I do it for ...yes I am serious ....fun, not for profit, I rarely sell anything I make.
In Pantheon I really hope that crafting can be done based on materials one harvests and doesn't require materials from raids and dungeons.
Since I like to solo more than most of us, and since I have a sad feeling that Pantheon will just give lip service to having soloable content after the early levels, I amy spend MOST of my time crafting and harvesting. Unless the game proves to be really awful, which I do not expect, I intend to spend a lot of time there and crafting may be the way to do it.
My original reply was focused around group / raid drops, but I agree with you that if you do solo material grabs and collects the gear should still be able to be made for skill ups, but may not have as nice of stats as the group drops / raids which ties back to my edit for finding the rarity vs quality crossing point. So if the collect/node farm drop is like crazy rare, then there should be a potential for it to match the group drop version which is a bit more common in a group chest.
Most folks who solo will be contented with this gear, most folks who group/raid will seek out some different focus's since sometimes your group gear can be vastly different than a raid/group focused gear that could need specific elements to be successful.
Not a crafter. Only time I ever bothered crafting was when I knew it would benefit my overall power level in the game. In EQ, I crafted for the mega earring that required you to master a ton of different tradeskills during PoP, and for the coldain shawl thing in velious. In WoW, I did tradeskills for the bonuses they provided like extra gem slots with JC'ing, stamina buffs from skinning, etc. I grinded them out as I would any system of advancement to reach the end, then reap the rewards and basically forget it existed afterward.
If I wanted crafted items, like a full set of banded or some such, I'd seek out the services of others while I remained focused on dungeoning, farming, adventuring, etc.
Why? I just feel like if I'm going to truly be a dedicated craftsman, I want to be the best at it, or at least the best I can personally be. And in order to do that, it takes a lot of time, dedication, and patience to achieve notoriety and reputation that crafters desire to become profitable in their endeavors. And all of that takes a lot of time away from other avenues of advancement that I find more appealing. Vendor diving, trading and bartering, clicking combine a million times, etc. just doesn't do it for me like downing a rare boss, finding a rare drop, or even conquering some achievements.
Irtax said:If there is a compelling reason, or if crafted items can compete with dropped loot, I will craft. Unfortunately, most games make crafted items more or less undesirable once you start reaching the higher levels.
This is the biggest problem with crafting. Often consumables end up being the best thing to craft and that’s what the majority end up doing so it also makes it not worth doing.
I absolutly love crafting. I grew up playing Eq1 and Eq2 but only got into crafting in Eq2 and I loved it. I could spend hours just going to the crafting station and working on new armor or a new weapon that I wanted. For me, Crafting in a MMO needs to be like a little mini game where there is a chance to succed at crafting the item because of the actions the player takes, and not just a random chance system where the player has no way to affect the outcome. After playing other MMOs out there, there was no challenge in crafting, and it was litteraly just get the materials and press craft and 2 seconds later you have what you wanted. The only investment in that system was money so you could buy the materials and quickly get to max crafting level in about an hour. The only game that has a crafting system that I have enjoyed since EQ2 was FF14. It was a challenge to get your crafter up in levels and you needed to create your own crafting gear too be able to tackle the harder recipes, but as a crafter you had your own set of skills and could try and bring an item back from failure or create an item of superior quality by the way you handled the crafting of the item. So I would say that an MMO without a robust crafting system is a huge turn off for me. Even as an advent adventurer I love to be able to log into a game and have something to do for the day other than go out and fight monsters, but at the same time it is just as difficult but in a different way.
I love the harvesting side of crafting. Its so enjoyable to hear the crunching of a pike hitting a rock to get stones or gems, or the sound of an axe hitting a tree to get some wood!
Now if crafting should involve mini games...I'm currently a bit torn about this. I remember enjoying crafting (leatherworking) in VG, and iirc it had some sort of mini game. EQ2 was also good. As long as a recipe was difficult you had to work a lot more to make a combine work, if things got trivial you succeded more or less automatically. Still, sometimes the RNG went a bit over the top with complications and even the chance to hurt yourself!
On the other hand, if there is a lot of work involved in harvesting or getting the resources to craft, I also think a fairly simple combine system can be OK. It should be balanced like this: Easy to get resources -> more difficult combines, and vice versa?
I enjoy crafting when I need a break from the xp grind, and when it is convient for me. I don't want to drain a lot of money into materials, so if im hunting mobs that are dropping what I need it's defintely an incentive for me to craft. I also like to go for a bit more of the uncommon crafts just to be different than what others have chosen. I may go brewing or cooking over tailor, blacksmith, etc.
Yes absolutely. One of the most critical and important aspects of the game to me. My favorite and most cherished part of VG and other games. I am not going to type out AGAIN all the things I look for in crafting in MMOs and why, since it has been done numerous times by myself and others in the crafting subforum already. Needless to say, a great and robust crafting system and associated gear economy is critical to my interest in the game. In addition, the long term health of the game in my opinion, is predicated on a detailed and well designed crafting system and economy from day 1, as it is not realistic to make major changes to a game and its economy related to crafting after release.
It is absolutely viable to make a system where armor, weapon and other gear makers are viable and profitable, while being time consuming and difficult to master as well as having a robust demand for consumable type items like food and potions, where every class is sought after and needed and profitable.
Absolutely. The key, of course, is to make crafted items valuable, and to minimize RNG in crafted recipes. The key components, augments, or recipes can be hard to get, but the end result should be coveted. Even cosmetic crafted items can be valuable. In LOTRO, I made a fortune on red dyes, which required norbog farming in Angmar. They were hard to get and the dyes were only available from crafters, but people loved to dye their armor. In WOW, the best raid food, available as a feast for everyone in the raid to use, could only be made with a recipe that required the guild to catch an aggregate of 10,000 fish. I fished about 6,500 of them (I know....dork alert....) and I still remember when the counter got up near 10,000, the whole guild stopped everything and waited for me to catch the last few. Triumph! Really. Something as silly as that gave us a real feeling of accomplishment. If crafting can be like that, there is no downtime in the game. At least for me.