Dumpster Diving: The practice of raiding NPC Vendors, to find discarded items that are still useful, can be recycled, and have value.
Brad,
Not sure if you remember me, but I did the first FAQ for Vanguard when it was just getting started, then when we were both in Vegas we had a chance to sit down over a meal and talk about Dumpster Diving, which you referred to as a mini-game or a game in a game, which was not actually intended in Everquest, but was one of the many wonderful gems that came out of the game.
I am excited to see you and your crew hard at work on what I hope will be something myself and others can get lost in gaming wise for years to come.
So, I have to ask, have you or others on your team given consideration about making Dumpster Diving part of the game?
How Dumpster Diving worked in Everquest:
Vendors were spread out all over the world and when you clicked on one and viewed their items you would see the much what is pictured above. The first few top slots were reserved for the same static items, while everything below them was an empty slot (including an undetermined amount of empty slots that were below your view). When you sold an item to the vendor, it would fill in the first available empty slot nearest to the top. This process would continue with random players coming by and dropping more and more items on the vendor.
Next, a “Dumpster Diver” a.k.a. DD, would come by and Purchase the non-static items they could see (items sold to the vendor by other players), this would force items further down on the vendor to be forced up, revealing more and more items that the DD could purchase. The price of the items varied with due to some internal code.
Most of the time, there was nothing but junk, but once in a while you might hit gold with a rare vial of blood (used for making armor and such) or scraps of a spell that could be put together to form the full spell. The vendors near open world dungeons were usually some of your best to hit.
The Hope:
This created a market for players who like myself, spent more time being a DD, than raiding. It gave people the ability to be a full time merchant and have more to do in the game and in turn provided items for other players who often were looking for that odd crafting material or such.
My hope is that some form of this will make it into Pantheon to help push a market economy that is less dependent on items purely from NPCs, but instead a unique and varied crafting community.
Thank you,
Barnum
I don't even remember what game I played where buying out NPC inventories could reveal some interesting opportunities. Long ago and not EQ.
Never heard this phrase but I agree that it is a nice feature.
IMO the more side-things to do that don't involve killing mobs and getting experience the better - makes the game feel larger and more complex and slows the mad dash to maximum level.
dorotea said:IMO the more side-things to do that don't involve killing mobs and getting experience the better - makes the game feel larger and more complex and slows the mad dash to maximum level.
With Everquest, even being part of a guild and doing some raiding, selling was my main occupation. The way the Bazaar (AH area) worked at the time, your account had to remain logged in and you put your guy on vendor mode basically and could price things in your pack to sell, but you only had so much room.
I was so into the selling that I actually had 5 accounts at the time, 4 ran on one computer and stay logged in 24/7 at the Bazaar, while my main was on my main PC running around collecting or fighting. The selling PC with 4 accounts was so maxxed out, that in order to move a character I had to look at the ground and move an inch at a time.
Vendor diving was a great thing. I cant even begin to recall how many times taking an extra moment to look at what was available at merchants really paid off. So many people, either thru ignorance or laziness, sold good stuff to vendors. I would often take a tour of an entire continent just to see what I might find, and there was almost always a trophy or two to be uncovered.
This reminded me of what WoW did, in sometimes giving certain vendors a limited number of useful supplies to sell, whether it was decent potions, recipes, gear, tradeskill items, etc.
These items would "spawn" on a merchant at given intervals and whoever was the first in the game world to stumble across them could snag them.. Then it would take X number of hours / days / whatever for it to come back.
I remember particularly in Vanilla WoW, it being a motivation to check around on vendors even if you didn't need their normal services / wares.
Eventually, I think this feature kind of evolved into the Black Market AH, but that's a bit of another beast. Best (or worst?) gold sink ever.
Barnum said:Dumpster Diving: The practice of raiding NPC Vendors, to find discarded items that are still useful, can be recycled, and have value.
Brad,
Not sure if you remember me, but I did the first FAQ for Vanguard when it was just getting started, then when we were both in Vegas we had a chance to sit down over a meal and talk about Dumpster Diving, which you referred to as a mini-game or a game in a game, which was not actually intended in Everquest, but was one of the many wonderful gems that came out of the game.
I am excited to see you and your crew hard at work on what I hope will be something myself and others can get lost in gaming wise for years to come.
So, I have to ask, have you or others on your team given consideration about making Dumpster Diving part of the game?
How Dumpster Diving worked in Everquest:
Vendors were spread out all over the world and when you clicked on one and viewed their items you would see the much what is pictured above. The first few top slots were reserved for the same static items, while everything below them was an empty slot (including an undetermined amount of empty slots that were below your view). When you sold an item to the vendor, it would fill in the first available empty slot nearest to the top. This process would continue with random players coming by and dropping more and more items on the vendor.
Next, a “Dumpster Diver” a.k.a. DD, would come by and Purchase the non-static items they could see (items sold to the vendor by other players), this would force items further down on the vendor to be forced up, revealing more and more items that the DD could purchase. The price of the items varied with due to some internal code.
Most of the time, there was nothing but junk, but once in a while you might hit gold with a rare vial of blood (used for making armor and such) or scraps of a spell that could be put together to form the full spell. The vendors near open world dungeons were usually some of your best to hit.
The Hope:
This created a market for players who like myself, spent more time being a DD, than raiding. It gave people the ability to be a full time merchant and have more to do in the game and in turn provided items for other players who often were looking for that odd crafting material or such.
My hope is that some form of this will make it into Pantheon to help push a market economy that is less dependent on items purely from NPCs, but instead a unique and varied crafting community.
Thank you,
Barnum
Thanks Barnum, it has been so long I forgot about this small detail. In today's EQ there is no limit to the list... you simply scroll down. All items that have been sold to the vendors are easly viewable.
I question if this "convience" has taken an aspect from EQ like so many other conviences have that should be considered in to be put back into Pantheon.(I have not heard if this exact detail has been implemented in Pantheon even though merchants will resell items, will some be hidden?) I was always pretty poor so i seldom bought way down the list, but I recall getting used to looking at the bottom item and if it was cheap, bat wings or bone chips, I would buy them out just hoping I would get lucky, it was like buying a lotto ticket, or dropping a quarter in a slot machine as I passed by.
With a scrollable list this "game of chance" is no longer there... but DD is much more convenient, sort of like POK books having made travel more convenient, yes, yes indeed they did.
Just posing the question.... what do you all think?
Zorkon said:
Thanks Barnum, it has been so long I forgot about this small detail. In today's EQ there is no limit to the list... you simply scroll down. All items that have been sold to the vendors are easly viewable.
I question if this "convience" has taken an aspect from EQ like so many other conviences have that should be considered in to be put back into Pantheon.(I have not heard if this exact detail has been implemented in Pantheon even though merchants will resell items, will some be hidden?) I was always pretty poor so i seldom bought way down the list, but I recall getting used to looking at the bottom item and if it was cheap, bat wings or bone chips, I would buy them out just hoping I would get lucky, it was like buying a lotto ticket, or dropping a quarter in a slot machine as I passed by.
With a scrollable list this "game of chance" is no longer there... but DD is much more convenient, sort of like POK books having made travel more convenient, yes, yes indeed they did.
Just posing the question.... what do you all think?
Hey there Zorkon,
If I could pick which version, I would have the items hidden. It reminds me of being a kid and digging down to the bottom of a Cracker Jack box to see what prize I got. This forced you to pay to play in small way, which was part of the fun. Things became much more rewarding this way.
Barnum
I honestly don't know how I feel about this to be honest. On a lore and gameplay standpoint there really isn't a reason for dumpster diving to exist like this. I mean its not like the vender would hide part of their inventory from a perspective buyer, nor is there any real technical reason that would stop them from displaying everything the vender has for sale. I sort of feel that dumpster diving to get those rare items "Should" be replaced with a typical first person to notice someone sold a valuable item to a vender should get it.
I myself have dumpster dived plenty in EQ to get the rare crafting items I needed from venders rather than buying them from the player markets which was quite a bit more expensive. Although I seem to remember doing it differently where after I bought a junk item to empty a slot that I would sell one of the items I was looking for to "Fill" that slot with that item allowing me then to buy back my item plus whatever quantities the vender had barried. It was a useful process no doubt and like you said was a nice bonus for those who knew to do it or that took the time to do it, however it just doesn't seem like it was an intended but rather a side effect of a coding/UI limitation from the time. I'm all for seeing unique things like this popup unexpectedly by a creative player base but I also feel we'll find things like this without purposely reinserting them because of nostalgia for an old one that occured in a previous game. Ultimately I think dumpster diving will still be a thing without hiding half a vendors inventory, it'll just be different, where instead of running around buying junk in hopes of revealing a rare gem, you'll run around checking remote venders where people are tempted to just dump everything on to free up bag space and hoping to find something worth buying and hauling back to a city or area with a player market. (Ideally I'd love to see some form of transport missions included where you could deliver supplies to a remote vender to replenish their stock of generic items like food and water and that would allow you a great oppurtunity to check them over for random stuff but thats another topic for sure =P)
EDIT: Thinking further, I suppose you could support this from a lore standpoint with faction. Purhaps something along the lines of creating a dozen or so different merchant factions. The more you buy and sell with a particular merchants faction the higher your faction gets with them, the lower with merchants of an opposing faction. The higher your merchant faction, the more slots they allow you to see until you can see their entire inventory. Lore wise this would be the equivilent of having good relations with a merchant and them always giving you the "Preffered" treatment of holding on to items they know you'd be interested in or holding back items from you if you are primarly doing business with that competing merchant accross the street. If they hold back the items you could still get to them by playing their game and buying parts of their stock, but ultimately you'll have a better time if you have higher faction with them. I would be entirely game for such a faction style system but if it took too much dev time to further develop I think I'd skip it entirely since obviously dev time is a precious resource and I'm not sure this ranks high enough.
While I don't have experience with EQ's original style of vendor mining, I have some experience with similar systems, including EQ's current list system. One of these was Dungeons and Dragons Online. There was one specific type of NPC vendor called a Broker (not the AH NPCs, and not standard NPC vendors) that would buy items from you at increased prices based on your Haggle skill. They would then turn around and list that item in their inventories at a percentage markup of the item's base value. These were the only NPCs that had this function. All others were limited to their coded inventories. It wasn't necessarily a great place to find high level weapons and armor, but it was a great place to snag a lower level wepon if you were broke, just starting out, or found yourself with a broken weapon. It was a list, however, so the entire inventory was visible at all times. I'm sure earlier on in the game's life, it promoted camping by those with the largest gold puches. Honestly, I think the unknown aspect to EQ's original system might be a bit more fun. A lot like buying mystery items in Diablo, for example if done right, but entirely player driven.
Kilsin said:We have already said that vendors will retain items sold to them and have a few discussions on this already, although many of them are interrelated to other topics like Vendors, Items etc.
BTW I also support the idea of vendors retaining what's sold so other players can buy.
This is a good first step. But will the items sold to vendors that are retained be available to other players or only the player that original sold it?
If I remember correctly, in VG when you sold an item to a NPC you had a chance to buy it back before you left, but otherwise the item was gone and no one else could buy it.
bigdogchris said:Kilsin said:We have already said that vendors will retain items sold to them and have a few discussions on this already, although many of them are interrelated to other topics like Vendors, Items etc.
BTW I also support the idea of vendors retaining what's sold so other players can buy.
This is a good first step. But will the items sold to vendors that are retained be available to other players or only the player that original sold it?
If I remember correctly, in VG when you sold an item to a NPC you had a chance to buy it back before you left, but otherwise the item was gone and no one else could buy it.
So far, we have it set up so that anyone who interacts with the vendor will see everything sold to the vendor by the previous player(s), I am not sure if that it what the devs intend to move forward with but it is in-game now and should be around for testing.
Kilsin said:bigdogchris said:Kilsin said:We have already said that vendors will retain items sold to them and have a few discussions on this already, although many of them are interrelated to other topics like Vendors, Items etc.
BTW I also support the idea of vendors retaining what's sold so other players can buy.
This is a good first step. But will the items sold to vendors that are retained be available to other players or only the player that original sold it?
If I remember correctly, in VG when you sold an item to a NPC you had a chance to buy it back before you left, but otherwise the item was gone and no one else could buy it.
So far, we have it set up so that anyone who interacts with the vendor will see everything sold to the vendor by the previous player(s), I am not sure if that it what the devs intend to move forward with but it is in-game now and should be around for testing.
Thanks Kils.
I'm sure none of us would want them to backtrack... forward to alpha is the goal. But I'm courious if this "hidden items at the merchants", game within the game was ever even considered, (so long ago, so forgotten ) If so how did conversation go? Was there a decision not to implement? It does seem to align with several of the Tenants
It would be additional content.
Nothing much challanging about scrolling a scroll bar.
Spend some gold(greater risk) fo the greater reward.
Lack of action (just scrolling down) should not be rewarded with a bonus item.
Maybe they could hash it out in a meeting durring the testing phases and come up with their own spin on it. Hate to miss the opertunity.
Kilsin said:We have already said that vendors will retain items sold to them and have a few discussions on this already, although many of them are interrelated to other topics like Vendors, Items etc.
There also may be some restrictions. Mostly likely very rare and powerful items, if someone is crazy enough to sell to a vendor, the vendor will not re-sell. Just because you have a lot of plat, whether you earned it, or heaven forbid, exploited a money dupe, doesn't mean you should be able to bypass playing the game and simply buy rare and above items for a ton of plat on some vendor.
That said, for the most part Kilsin is of course correct, and it is fun to go to various vendors hoping to find a decent item, perhaps one you could sell for more than the vendor wants, or perhaps it's slightly better than an item you have.
Aradune said:Kilsin said:We have already said that vendors will retain items sold to them and have a few discussions on this already, although many of them are interrelated to other topics like Vendors, Items etc.
There also may be some restrictions. Mostly likely very rare and powerful items, if someone is crazy enough to sell to a vendor, the vendor will not re-sell. Just because you have a lot of plat, whether you earned it, or heaven forbid, exploited a money dupe, doesn't mean you should be able to bypass playing the game and simply buy rare and above items for a ton of plat on some vendor.
That said, for the most part Kilsin is of course correct, and it is fun to go to various vendors hoping to find a decent item, perhaps one you could sell for more than the vendor wants, or perhaps it's slightly better than an item you have.
Thanks for catching that man! I was being careful not to give too much away and forgot to include the restriction for high end items/epics/ etc. to protect against abuse/exploits :)
Aradune said:Kilsin said:We have already said that vendors will retain items sold to them and have a few discussions on this already, although many of them are interrelated to other topics like Vendors, Items etc.
There also may be some restrictions. Mostly likely very rare and powerful items, if someone is crazy enough to sell to a vendor, the vendor will not re-sell. Just because you have a lot of plat, whether you earned it, or heaven forbid, exploited a money dupe, doesn't mean you should be able to bypass playing the game and simply buy rare and above items for a ton of plat on some vendor.
That said, for the most part Kilsin is of course correct, and it is fun to go to various vendors hoping to find a decent item, perhaps one you could sell for more than the vendor wants, or perhaps it's slightly better than an item you have.
It is not just buying items, it could be trade skill components or other things not valuable to one person but usable by another.
For you dumpster divers! Don't worry! I won't be engaging in an auction house or in a WTS spamfest. If I can't unload an item I have in my own time-frame (probably the time between finishing adventuring and logging for the evening) it will be sold to a vendor. In the old EQ days and poison was just implemented I loved having my rogue go through the vendors in the Karanas to grab all of the spider sacs (they were not stackable at the time so they took up a lot of inventory space) and go to town trying to make poisons. I am certain I sold many things to vendors that I had no idea were far more valuable than what the vendor would give me for them (crushbone belts, for example). I have no qualms about it.
So yes, there will be some folks out there that will sell to a vendor and can make a dumpster diver's day!
Enjoy!
My Dumpster Diving: EQI - there were a lot of vendors you could check for Greater Light Stones (useful for a number of reasons). I would DD vendors in the Kerranas and Kajit Isle - then run them to newbs in Toxx Forrest. Erudites had VERY poor vision and the GLS was a godsend. Another favorite was checking all vendors in Rathe Mtns for weapon drops in Feerrott and the Rathe Mtns. themselves. Early on - those weapons sold for a great ROI to newbs in Qeynos. Sister Isle was another good spot for DD.