Arathane9 said: Another reason I dislike the "color coded quality" system for determining an item's worth is that it lends itself easily to linear stat building and stat inflation. For instance...if a level 5 green green item is +1 strength, then its logical that a level 10 green item is + a higher strength value. By the time level 50 gets around, the items have such absurd stat bonuses that they have lost their meaning, their significance. That's stat inflation, and original EQ did a great job of not inflating character stats. Items with just +15 strength were amazing (Thick Banded Belt) for a very long time. So, if items follow the color coding quality precedent set forth by WoW and followed by many MMOs, stat inflation takes over, and then the best items need even more ridiculously inflated stats. I miss the days of EQ where stats were simple and meaningful. Also, I don't think Pantheon will follow the diablo style loot system where random animals like deer or bears drop items like axes and chain helmets. I disliked that. EQ did it best- deer and bears should have pelts and meat. Not axes and chain helmets.
Well if a snake that kicks drops a boot, one has to wonder what poor adventurer was swallowed by that snake ...hehehe (kidding)
Man, let's not do stupid tiers... I hate that crap because it stopped making me think about stats, but what tier is the item in.
Take for example, if i had a green chest piece, it had exactly the stats i wanted to build my character on, then a blue chest piece drops, and it has better stats in some areas, but it doesn't REALLY fit my build like the green piece did, but eventually people are going to expect me to be in all blue gear or better... No tiers, i hate tiers, stats are stats, rarity doesn't matter.
Dubah said:Man, let's not do stupid tiers... I hate that crap because it stopped making me think about stats, but what tier is the item in.
Take for example, if i had a green chest piece, it had exactly the stats i wanted to build my character on, then a blue chest piece drops, and it has better stats in some areas, but it doesn't REALLY fit my build like the green piece did, but eventually people are going to expect me to be in all blue gear or better... No tiers, i hate tiers, stats are stats, rarity doesn't matter.
I am ok with it all, i liked EQ, loved EQ and i think it was done right from 99 to 2017 Teirs gave you more to aim for.
In 1999 i remember single weapons gear ment something special.
Until people exploited the **** out of everything, and sold/camp held for weeks every special item known.
If your asking for 1 item to be server only? then ok i understand.
but if your asking for 1000 players to have single items, your going to be camped blocked again and again and again until the player base is annoyed beyond belief again.
With the teirs, purchases it was not that bad, it didnt mean as special as people wanted but it was a base gear set, and then if you wanted special items you would go for that seperatly.
So i have mixed reations to it all,
and i want to avoid all camp blocks, exploits possible this time around. Because if the same guy is camping the same spot for weeks and having bots - alts log in to grab and sell the items i will be petitioning this time around.
7 days just for some of these camps to drop a quest item, then have 1-5 people camp it all year around is just silly.
For those that remember???
We just joined a huge guild and blocked those people, the hard way. Since petitions where not able to be dealt with due to the sheer numbers exploiting it 24/7
just saying pros and cons to this system you want, fight for.
Crazzie said:I am ok with it all, i liked EQ, loved EQ and i think it was done right from 99 to 2017 Teirs gave you more to aim for.
In 1999 i remember single weapons gear ment something special.
Until people exploited the **** out of everything, and sold/camp held for weeks every special item known.
If your asking for 1 item to be server only? then ok i understand.
but if your asking for 1000 players to have single items, your going to be camped blocked again and again and again until the player base is annoyed beyond belief again.
With the teirs, purchases it was not that bad, it didnt mean as special as people wanted but it was a base gear set, and then if you wanted special items you would go for that seperatly.
So i have mixed reations to it all,
and i want to avoid all camp blocks, exploits possible this time around. Because if the same guy is camping the same spot for weeks and having bots - alts log in to grab and sell the items i will be petitioning this time around.
7 days just for some of these camps to drop a quest item, then have 1-5 people camp it all year around is just silly.
For those that remember???
We just joined a huge guild and blocked those people, the hard way. Since petitions where not able to be dealt with due to the sheer numbers exploiting it 24/7
just saying pros and cons to this system you want, fight for.
I'm having a hard time understanding what you're getting at, but I have a feeling you misunderstood the thread. We're not talking about item rarity and camping. VR already said that some items will be more rare than others. The thread is whether or not there should be a color code on item descriptions to be able to quickly determine the value or rarity of that item.
dorotea said:Everyone that can use the type of item rolls need because it may be an upgrade - they have no way to know yet. Exactly the reason you don't like the idea - the item may well be wasted on someone that already has a better piece. But is this a bad thing? Yes it is very bad for the person that would have gotten the item had everyone known what it was and the people with better gear didn't roll for it. But is this good or bad for the game? I've seen endless debates on whether it is GOOD for a game to make upgrades very hard to get because it keeps people going back to the same dungeons and raids or BAD because it takes so long to get equipped people get frustrated. If you come down on the side that says "good" this idea starts to seem slightly less irrational.
So then you find situations in which after you've returned to town that you rolled need on an item that's not an upgrade for you at all, and that it would have been a great upgrade for someone else who'd been there at the time?
I agree that making the process of getting upgrades should be meaningful. I agree with the notion that encouraging people to go back to certain places can be desirable. But I see no value in wasting the efforts of a group with a system that purposefully creates a situation in which an item is presented to a person who wont use it at the expense of one who will.
Feyshtey said:dorotea said:Everyone that can use the type of item rolls need because it may be an upgrade - they have no way to know yet. Exactly the reason you don't like the idea - the item may well be wasted on someone that already has a better piece. But is this a bad thing? Yes it is very bad for the person that would have gotten the item had everyone known what it was and the people with better gear didn't roll for it. But is this good or bad for the game? I've seen endless debates on whether it is GOOD for a game to make upgrades very hard to get because it keeps people going back to the same dungeons and raids or BAD because it takes so long to get equipped people get frustrated. If you come down on the side that says "good" this idea starts to seem slightly less irrational.
So then you find situations in which after you've returned to town that you rolled need on an item that's not an upgrade for you at all, and that it would have been a great upgrade for someone else who'd been there at the time?
I agree that making the process of getting upgrades should be meaningful. I agree with the notion that encouraging people to go back to certain places can be desirable. But I see no value in wasting the efforts of a group with a system that purposefully creates a situation in which an item is presented to a person who wont use it at the expense of one who will.
Well I suppose since most items will be unbound, if you're running with people you know, you could just then give the item to the person you know could use it. Or even still, maybe just give it to someone else like a guildie that could use it. But I agree, it still seems like identification adds extra steps without really benefitting anyone.
dorotea said:Everyone that can use the type of item rolls need because it may be an upgrade - they have no way to know yet. Exactly the reason you don't like the idea - the item may well be wasted on someone that already has a better piece. But is this a bad thing? Yes it is very bad for the person that would have gotten the item had everyone known what it was and the people with better gear didn't roll for it. But is this good or bad for the game? I've seen endless debates on whether it is GOOD for a game to make upgrades very hard to get because it keeps people going back to the same dungeons and raids or BAD because it takes so long to get equipped people get frustrated. If you come down on the side that says "good" this idea starts to seem slightly less irrational.
Is your opinion affected by whether the item is bind on pick-up or freely tradable? Some boss drop items in Pantheon may well be BoP and others not. Suppose the item is freely tradable - and everyone that can use plate rolls on any piece of plate that drops because they don't know the statistics. But if the system allows anyone that can use plate to roll need plate users may roll need just to sell the thing even if they never intend to use it.
I really really hope they don't have loot systems like this in groups whatsoever. Unless every rare mob drops something for every class. Everyone should be able roll on every rare drop equally whether it is for need or greed; everyone is there putting in the time and effort.
Iksar said:dorotea said:Everyone that can use the type of item rolls need because it may be an upgrade - they have no way to know yet. Exactly the reason you don't like the idea - the item may well be wasted on someone that already has a better piece. But is this a bad thing? Yes it is very bad for the person that would have gotten the item had everyone known what it was and the people with better gear didn't roll for it. But is this good or bad for the game? I've seen endless debates on whether it is GOOD for a game to make upgrades very hard to get because it keeps people going back to the same dungeons and raids or BAD because it takes so long to get equipped people get frustrated. If you come down on the side that says "good" this idea starts to seem slightly less irrational.
Is your opinion affected by whether the item is bind on pick-up or freely tradable? Some boss drop items in Pantheon may well be BoP and others not. Suppose the item is freely tradable - and everyone that can use plate rolls on any piece of plate that drops because they don't know the statistics. But if the system allows anyone that can use plate to roll need plate users may roll need just to sell the thing even if they never intend to use it.
I really really hope they don't have loot systems like this in groups whatsoever. Unless every rare mob drops something for every class. Everyone should be able roll on every rare drop equally whether it is for need or greed; everyone is there putting in the time and effort.
Well, you could be "that guy" that need rolls on everything. But allowing the teirs streamlines the loot process so that if you would like it as something you're goiung to sell but wont use it as an upgrade you dont have to have a prolonged conversation with every drop to see who will roll and who wont.
And I hope that being "that guy" would have impact on your ability to get groups in the future.
I wasn't exactly mentioning the "roll need on anything" approach as something I LIKED I was quite vocal towards some of those who did it. But it does happen. In a game like Pantheon it will happen a lot less exactly as mentioned above - reputation will tend to be more important.
Using EQ as an example, why would you ever want to waste time camping FBSS in a need before greed system or social community set if you are not a melee class? Alternatively, it would be camped by curtailed groups so that either everyone who might "need" it already has one, or the group is a tank and all casters. Need before greed works maybe with groups of close friends or guild members but for the community as a whole with randoms grouping together it is awful in a game with very very limited BoE/BoP items. It also keeps most camps more or less viable so you don't feel like you are wasting time if you can't get into whatever camp you really want. As a caster I could camp FBSS because if I win that I can sell it and get GEBs or something else expensive that I'd really want.
I sincerely hope the community doesn't hold to the idea of need before greed.
dorotea said:I wasn't exactly mentioning the "roll need on anything" approach as something I LIKED I was quite vocal towards some of those who did it. But it does happen. In a game like Pantheon it will happen a lot less exactly as mentioned above - reputation will tend to be more important.
Not the first time I have left a group because everyone rolled need on an item that could have benefitted (been an upgrade) for one of their team members. Given the chance..greed will win out over fairness. There has to be a better way...such as group leader is loot master..allows roll between the members that can actually use the item, because it would be an upgrade for them. Or something like that.
Iksar said:Using EQ as an example, why would you ever want to waste time camping FBSS in a need before greed system or social community set if you are not a melee class?
For the same reason melee's will camp right down the hall where the FBR drops: Because if you're unwilling to help your caster friends and guildmates they will be unwilling to do the same for you. It is a game strongly oriented toward socialization, reputation and lasting alliances, is it not?
I'm not remotely interested in being grouped with, let alone in a guild with people consumed with the me me me attitude. And as far as I'm concerned they can all rot at the zone line perpetually LFG.
Feyshtey said:For the same reason melee's will camp right down the hall where the FBR drops: Because if you're unwilling to help your caster friends and guildmates they will be unwilling to do the same for you. It is a game strongly oriented toward socialization, reputation and lasting alliances, is it not?
I'm not remotely interested in being grouped with, let alone in a guild with people consumed with the me me me attitude. And as far as I'm concerned they can all rot at the zone line perpetually LFG.
I am not talking about with friends, you can dish out the loot however you want amongst friends. I am talking about pick up groups/groups with random players. The most fair way of handling loot is everyone gets a roll, plain and simple. Need before greed works in a no drop/bind on pickup environment, or if every decent item in this game is a lore item. Otherwise when with random people, for all you know that monk who "needs" the FBSS already has one and is keeping it in his bags. Everyone puts in equal time and effort, they should all have equal chance at the reward.
Need before greed is much more a ME ME ME attitude than equal rolls for anyone interested.
On topic: No tiered gear, no tiered coloration of items, and preferably no item level as a measure of an items power/stat distribution. Item level should only be an indicator for when a character gets full use of the item.
Taledar said:No tiers! Side note, im glad kill is here to always point people in a general direction, and sometimes its even the right one!
Lol, I can only do so much and give so much info man, if people run wild with imagination and theories I don't want to stop them, I only jump in when it is way off course and people start arguing over opinions or make false assumptions based on little to no information :)
>Need before greed is much more a ME ME ME attitude than equal rolls for anyone interested<
I have never really focused on the issue of how rolls for loot should work - to me need/greed rolls are normal (and my experience goes back as far as that of anyone here - it just doesn't include EQ). The main debates I've seen in multiple MMOs aren't about need/greed as a concept but about details. Usually how to make sure that greedy or careless people couldn't roll need when they self-evidently didn't need the item. As in preventing classes that couldn't use an item from rolling need on it.
I would have thought that letting everyone roll equally was a ME ME ME approach (it isn't called "greed" for no reason) whereas allowing need rolls focused more on who could use an item. Obviously the point that everyone puts in the same effort and time is a valid one and I am not saying a pure greed system is bad - I just don't follow the argument reflected by the above quote.
I assume that many or most of us will have different views depending on whether an item binds on pickup. If an item DOES bind and anyone that cannot use it can only sell it to a NPC merchant for far less than its value (an assumption buried here - who is to say that NPC merchants won't pay more realistically for high value items) it is much harder to argue that someone that actually needs it shouldn't get priority over someone that can only sell it to a NPC for 12 copper pieces.
I hope there isn't a teir system, but i can say that the bosses in high end dungeons can have some no drop items along with most of the raid gear, i only say this becuase if we don't guilds that have pasted up certain raid mobs in gear will likely still farm him for his loot and sell them at outrageous prices and make the game not a lot of fun for the ones hat want to do raid content. And if you want a prefect example of this AoW is still farmed on Live servers in EQ for his BoC, and that expansion was made like 15 years ago, just saying.
Iksar said:Feyshtey said:For the same reason melee's will camp right down the hall where the FBR drops: Because if you're unwilling to help your caster friends and guildmates they will be unwilling to do the same for you. It is a game strongly oriented toward socialization, reputation and lasting alliances, is it not?
I'm not remotely interested in being grouped with, let alone in a guild with people consumed with the me me me attitude. And as far as I'm concerned they can all rot at the zone line perpetually LFG.
I am not talking about with friends, you can dish out the loot however you want amongst friends. I am talking about pick up groups/groups with random players. The most fair way of handling loot is everyone gets a roll, plain and simple. Need before greed works in a no drop/bind on pickup environment, or if every decent item in this game is a lore item. Otherwise when with random people, for all you know that monk who "needs" the FBSS already has one and is keeping it in his bags. Everyone puts in equal time and effort, they should all have equal chance at the reward.
Need before greed is much more a ME ME ME attitude than equal rolls for anyone interested.
On topic: No tiered gear, no tiered coloration of items, and preferably no item level as a measure of an items power/stat distribution. Item level should only be an indicator for when a character gets full use of the item.
To be honest the fairest loot system would be an independant loot system which would work for the most part, but would cuase a lot of inflation so probably not the best way to go about it unless if they made bosses best loot be on a very low drop rate to make it still a viable option, but this would go against someone who is checking out the game and didn't come with friends unlike im sure most of the people talking about pantheon has like 20 other friends at least waiting for the game to come out as well.