I can't remember if it was said during a stream or not, but will items have "tiers" to indicate quality or rarity? Personally, I hope they do not have a "tier" system where green is common, blue is uncommon, etc. It feels very scripted and cookie cutter. It has the WoW feel of progression...level one start with white items, at level 5 you'll be rewarded with green items from quests, even though they are still bad items. Maybe by level 20 you're wearing blue items. It's like the artificial icing on decorative cakes that looks great but doesn't taste very good.
I miss the days when there were items that players recognized. Full bronze armor on a level 20 was awesome back in the day. A big 2 handed sword on a paladin, but it's wielded in one hand? Yeah that's Ghoulbane! Most players recognized great items such as the Short Sword of the Ykesha, or a Robe of the Ishva, and it was a tangible way to show off your gear and be proud of it. My point is...items don't need a colored tier system for the players to know and determine an item's value. Pantheon is all about letting the community grow and evolve, so why force a tiered color loot system into it?
Considering that we will be able to sacrifice gear to earn favor with our deity, I imagine there will be some sort of tiered loot system to help determine the value of each sacrifice. A system like this has it's pros and cons, but personally, I'd rather not see one. I'd much rather see a huge loot table in the game and let the players determine their value or rarity. Slapping colors onto everything just makes it so people can compare one color tier with another and I'd rather not see that kind of "linear" progression with items.
snrub said:Seems like a non-issue to me. Whether or not the UI colors certain items green, blue, purple, etc, or not has no effect on my gameplay.
Maybe not your gameplay, but it does affect some people's gameplay when those colors mean something.
In a game where situational gear is so prevalent, I would find it strange to then have a very obvious way of ranking one item "better" than another. The only exception I think would be epic items having purple names. But those would be few and far between. Anything more feels like it would lend itself to a "best in slot" mentality.
I pretty well agree with snrub that it doesn't really matter.
I note that our characters could probably look at a weapon or piece of armor and have a pretty good idea whether a dwarf spent two years crafting it or an orc put it together from pieces of metal on the ground, using the local equivilent of crazy glue. To the extent a mouseover color system gave this kind of information it seems perfectly appropriate.
On the other hand, barring a detect magic type of ability the character happened to possess, he or she might have no means of knowing whether an item had any magical enhancements - or curses for that matter.
I am sure many of us remember games where one got a boatload of seemingly normal items and one could either sell them for their apparent value or laboriously lug them (with inventory and encumbrance limiting how many you could carry) to a place where they could be identified. With identification not exactly coming for free. Maybe with detect magic scrolls so that one could at least drop all the completely mundane items. I am not the biggest fan of complexity and making things difficult but it strikes me that something along these general lines might not be all that *bad* an idea where one of the development goals is to slow down the mad rush to maximum level and quests to kill 200 orcs or pick up 20 goblin necklaces each with a 5% drop rate aren't necessarily considered the ideal way to do that.
Even pre tiers in EQ players naturally sorted them into tiers and lists.
I am of the opinion outside of pre nerf items, there should not be anything (blue green purple etc) to denote an item.
However if say a raid or group encounter is nerfed to make it more accessible (which I assume will happen at some point it's the way of things) the original items that dropped should have a prefix to denote them.
Bazgrim said:snrub said:Seems like a non-issue to me. Whether or not the UI colors certain items green, blue, purple, etc, or not has no effect on my gameplay.
Maybe not your gameplay, but it does affect some people's gameplay when those colors mean something.
In a game where situational gear is so prevalent, I would find it strange to then have a very obvious way of ranking one item "better" than another. The only exception I think would be epic items having purple names. But those would be few and far between. Anything more feels like it would lend itself to a "best in slot" mentality.
I've never played a game where it is always true that Orange > Purple > Blue > Green > White. A level 60 blue will almost always be better than a level 50 purple, etc.
I'm not saying Pantheon should color code their gear, I'm just saying it seems to be an awfully werid thing to get hung up on, one way or the other.
>Countless times in EQ I've seen people pass on extremely rare drops because they have no idea of their significance<
True. But is this a good system?
Assume there is no broker, or the broker doesn't allow sales of the most valuable items. So you can't really take a look at the market and see what items are going for. Also assume that gear is situational and there is no "Breastplate of the Godly" but 40 different items with 40 different names. So you can't really judge value by the name of the item. Finally let's assume that all the items have somewhat similar looking statistics, but the item with strength +3 critical damage +3 is one of 100 items with that statistic but the item with strength +3 critical hit chance +3 is best in slot - all the other drops have critical hit chance +2. Should there be some way to know in-game - without a speadsheet printed out and kept next to the computer - which items are exceptionally powerful?
You probably thought my answer would be no - not a good system. I wasn't sure myself when I started typing. But on balance I think this is the way it should be.
I will go further - I am not sure that attributes should be visible. What God gifted us with the ability to know precisely what an item does?
I would actually like a system - common in days well before EQ - where we knew that we got "A brilliantly constructed pair of gloves obviously made from the finest material available. A faint blue glow shows the magical nature of these wonderful items."
Once out of the dungeon magic can identify the precise nature of this magic. Or perhaps certain magic can identify it immediately. But not simply a mouseover to see that these are the Famed Gloves of the Everliving.
snrub said:Bazgrim said:snrub said:Seems like a non-issue to me. Whether or not the UI colors certain items green, blue, purple, etc, or not has no effect on my gameplay.
Maybe not your gameplay, but it does affect some people's gameplay when those colors mean something.
In a game where situational gear is so prevalent, I would find it strange to then have a very obvious way of ranking one item "better" than another. The only exception I think would be epic items having purple names. But those would be few and far between. Anything more feels like it would lend itself to a "best in slot" mentality.
I've never played a game where it is always true that Orange > Purple > Blue > Green > White. A level 60 blue will almost always be better than a level 50 purple, etc.
I'm not saying Pantheon should color code their gear, I'm just saying it seems to be an awfully werid thing to get hung up on, one way or the other.
Well there seems to be some different ideas about what this system means. The OP seemed to be suggesting a strict linear progression where white = lvl 1, green = lvl 5, blue = lvl 20, etc.
So I guess my question is, if it is not linear, what would the difference be between a green and a blue item and so on? Or at what point does a white become green? Is it based on total stats? Is it based on the level of the monster that dropped it? Or just rarity?
Also, keep in mind, the vast majority of items will not have min lvl requirements. And when a lower level character equips an item that is determined to be OP for their level, that item scales down. So then what could potentially be a "white" item for a level 40 could statistically be the best item that a level 15 has equipped. It just seems strange to me. Furthermore, I think it could create some confusion where perhaps an item is rare and has a high total amount of stats, but practically, that item would only be worth wearing in a very limited amount of circumstances. I don't have actually a hard stance on it. I'm not saying it's a terrible idea - I'm just trying to play devil's advocate because I can't think of a worthwhile system that would make sense with scaleable and situational gear.
I agree with Grog let's not go and make things harder then they have to be for no reward. Adding an extra layer of mechanics just to have them seems silly.
If the player in question does not know what they need, or the relative value of an item, that is their own fault. Let them remedy their own problems... or not.
Bazgrim said:snrub said:Bazgrim said:snrub said:Seems like a non-issue to me. Whether or not the UI colors certain items green, blue, purple, etc, or not has no effect on my gameplay.
Maybe not your gameplay, but it does affect some people's gameplay when those colors mean something.
In a game where situational gear is so prevalent, I would find it strange to then have a very obvious way of ranking one item "better" than another. The only exception I think would be epic items having purple names. But those would be few and far between. Anything more feels like it would lend itself to a "best in slot" mentality.
I've never played a game where it is always true that Orange > Purple > Blue > Green > White. A level 60 blue will almost always be better than a level 50 purple, etc.
I'm not saying Pantheon should color code their gear, I'm just saying it seems to be an awfully werid thing to get hung up on, one way or the other.
Well there seems to be some different ideas about what this system means. The OP seemed to be suggesting a strict linear progression where white = lvl 1, green = lvl 5, blue = lvl 20, etc.
So I guess my question is, if it is not linear, what would the difference be between a green and a blue item and so on? Or at what point does a white become green? Is it based on total stats? Is it based on the level of the monster that dropped it? Or just rarity?
Also, keep in mind, the vast majority of items will not have min lvl requirements. And when a lower level character equips an item that is determined to be OP for their level, that item scales down. So then what could potentially be a "white" item for a level 40 could statistically be the best item that a level 15 has equipped. It just seems strange to me. Furthermore, I think it could create some confusion where perhaps an item is rare and has a high total amount of stats, but practically, that item would only be worth wearing in a very limited amount of circumstances. I don't have actually a hard stance on it. I'm not saying it's a terrible idea - I'm just trying to play devil's advocate because I can't think of a worthwhile system that would make sense with scaleable and situational gear.
Every game I've ever played it basically is:
White - vendor junk
Green - trash mob drops
Blue - group/quest items
Purple - raid items
Orange - epics
I've never seen it be tied to the level of the item.
But again, I don't see why using or not using this type of system matters. I never really saw the point in it, but it seems to be an odd thing to get worked up about, so this will be my last post in this thread.
Sunmistress said:I agree with Grog let's not go and make things harder then they have to be for no reward. Adding an extra layer of mechanics just to have them seems silly.
If the player in question does not know what they need, or the relative value of an item, that is their own fault. Let them remedy their own problems... or not.
Agreed. While having to identify an item may be "realistic," it is far too impractical. A designer should be careful to not add these types of features that withhold information (such as this thread https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5283/player-name-reveal-idea which suggests player names be hidden until you interact with them) just for the sake of realism - a feature should contribute to the overall fun. Or else it quickly becomes a chore. And in this case, I can't imagine most people would find item identification "fun." It's not a real challenge - just seems like a hoop to jump through.
Not a fan of tiers,I hope if they have something like this that they'll return to the oldschool method
I'd prefer common weopons and next to it the named artifacts and relics that are rare.
There is a price to pay to wear the rare items of greater power.
A penalty or curse to balance it
Examples
Artifact axe called Amuck
+ 15 strength and +5 vitality are conferred upon the owner
at the expense of a proper sense of fear. Wielders of Amuck don't much bother
dodging blows in battle -25 dodge
Artifact bow
Accuracy +150, Bow skill +5, Armor Class -25
Archers using this crossbow rarely miss their targets, but their
concentration and slow, careful movements make them easy targets in turn
Ethric's staff
Type: Relic
Dark Magic, Meditation skill +15, Decrease hit Points over time, Evil
Much more a tool than a weapon, Ethric's Staff was fashioned by the worlds
first lich--Ethric the Mad. The staff magnifies Dark magic, drawing from the
life force of its user. Since Ethric's life force was magically sustained,
this wasn't a problem for him. Mortals, however, will slowly feel their life
force drain away while they hold the staff.
I am comfortable with color coding but was trying to say that on balance it might be better to go back before the days when it became ubiquitous and not have it. To me it is almost a 50-50 call.
Then I decided to throw out an idea that the people who want more hand-holding would hate, and the people that want less hand-holding would probably hate too. Heck, throw out enough ideas the team may like one out of every 100 and the other 99 do no harm at all. Yes it is inconvenient not to have a God or master magician appear whenever a boss dies to explain what each of the items are, but you can hardly argue it isn't realistic.
>Your idea to mask the identity of an item strikes me as unnecessary and overly inconvenient. If you can't identify an item until later (in a town or whatever) then how can you decide which of your group mates gets the item? <
Everyone that can use the type of item rolls need because it may be an upgrade - they have no way to know yet. Exactly the reason you don't like the idea - the item may well be wasted on someone that already has a better piece. But is this a bad thing? Yes it is very bad for the person that would have gotten the item had everyone known what it was and the people with better gear didn't roll for it. But is this good or bad for the game? I've seen endless debates on whether it is GOOD for a game to make upgrades very hard to get because it keeps people going back to the same dungeons and raids or BAD because it takes so long to get equipped people get frustrated. If you come down on the side that says "good" this idea starts to seem slightly less irrational.
Is your opinion affected by whether the item is bind on pick-up or freely tradable? Some boss drop items in Pantheon may well be BoP and others not. Suppose the item is freely tradable - and everyone that can use plate rolls on any piece of plate that drops because they don't know the statistics. But if the system allows anyone that can use plate to roll need plate users may roll need just to sell the thing even if they never intend to use it.
Would I vote for my own idea? probably not - sounds like a pain in the arse to me - but I thought it was relevant to the topic and the realism appealed to me. And the nostalgia, this system was common long before EQ was ever thought of.
((Dorotea repeat to yourself - this is not D&D - this is not D&D - this is not ....))