Bazgrim said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Aradune said:Mandalorian2K said:I was an original pledger to the KS and so I got the update. I think it's a really good idea to continue posting updates there in case some of those people didn't move over and pledge here like I did. That being said, there was one part of the update that I was hoping to get clarification on and that is the bolded part about the next stream.
I was under the impression that we were closer than a couple months away from the next stream. I know it has been stated as soon and you were putting the finishing touches on two new zones. I figured we were maybe a few weeks to a month away at most, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what was stated there. This isn't a sky is falling post or complaint, I'm just anxious to see the progress since the last stream and was hoping we were a little closer than a few months away to the next stream.
I just wanted to say thanks for taking the risk on making this game for all of us that have felt orphaned the past decade plus and for picking yourselves up and continuing to fight through the adversity of that failed KS. I can't wait to play this game. I've played many other MMOs over the years, but have basically been without a home since leaving EQ when they started dumbing it down and making it more solo friendly. It's no longer the game I fondly remember in it's current form and I'm looking forward to playing something that more closely resembles EQ Classic/Kunark/Velious era. I play P99 occasionally to scratch that itch until Pantheon releases. Thanks again for all you do!
I appreciate your perspective. We would rather under promise and over deliever. The next stream is running on time but I don't believe we've ever been specific about when it's happening.
To be fair, in the last stream you specifically said "we don't know exactly when the next one will be, but it won't be another 6 months". It has currently been a little over 4 months. So if the next stream is much longer than 1 month away, it will be a little disappointing. I totally understand that things change and it was really good to hear from you. I don't at all doubt that a lot of progress has been made. I'm just explaining that's where the expectations came from.
Yes. No one here is pointing fingers, spreading unfounded rumors, or picketing outside VR headquarters, so there is no need to give us what felt like the middle finger/guild remove speech Kilsin gave us in "Still No Stream" thread (I had to take a few days off the forums after reading those perfunctory responses). We are loyal, honest supporters, but we are hungry. The moral of the story is we just need something to hold us over to continue the hunt/spreading the good qualities and, most importantly, progress of the game to keep the community commensalistic, healthy, and thriving.
Sometimes perfunctory statements get perfunctory responses. If you are hungry, it should be common sense to not bite the hand that feeds you.
So my/our detailed responses over 3 threads regarding this issue are perfunctory compared to his responses that did not appease anyone or any of the questions we posed, and furthermore prompted additional comments/threads? With all respect, that is poor PR, no matter how much we love/respect Kilsin. Apart from your statement clearly making no sense, if you want to pick a fight in semantics and logic go to university. I'm here for Pantheon, and this just goes to show another example of the dissention between our own community members as a result of this issue. We can't talk about development when there isn't new material to be seen, and when logical statements about this are made, people with blind faith clinging to the devs such as yourself get the motherly instict to defend VR at all costs (and without any stated reasoning), which is completely counterproductive to these forums, development, and community as a whole.
And last time I checked, we feed them with donations, not vice versa. We wanted Vanguard, we wanted EQNext, we want Pantheon, if it's becomes another unfinished shell, we will all survive; however, that isn't what we want. It's also why we are trying to push them in the right direction in development/marketing which is what these forums are for. Try and leave some emotion/sensitivity at the door in place of objectivity... Taking a logical, respectful stand is not "biting" anyone. I don't know how many ways I can phrase how much we care about the game, which is obvious when you see the thought put into posts.
Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Aradune said:Mandalorian2K said:I was an original pledger to the KS and so I got the update. I think it's a really good idea to continue posting updates there in case some of those people didn't move over and pledge here like I did. That being said, there was one part of the update that I was hoping to get clarification on and that is the bolded part about the next stream.
I was under the impression that we were closer than a couple months away from the next stream. I know it has been stated as soon and you were putting the finishing touches on two new zones. I figured we were maybe a few weeks to a month away at most, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what was stated there. This isn't a sky is falling post or complaint, I'm just anxious to see the progress since the last stream and was hoping we were a little closer than a few months away to the next stream.
I just wanted to say thanks for taking the risk on making this game for all of us that have felt orphaned the past decade plus and for picking yourselves up and continuing to fight through the adversity of that failed KS. I can't wait to play this game. I've played many other MMOs over the years, but have basically been without a home since leaving EQ when they started dumbing it down and making it more solo friendly. It's no longer the game I fondly remember in it's current form and I'm looking forward to playing something that more closely resembles EQ Classic/Kunark/Velious era. I play P99 occasionally to scratch that itch until Pantheon releases. Thanks again for all you do!
I appreciate your perspective. We would rather under promise and over deliever. The next stream is running on time but I don't believe we've ever been specific about when it's happening.
To be fair, in the last stream you specifically said "we don't know exactly when the next one will be, but it won't be another 6 months". It has currently been a little over 4 months. So if the next stream is much longer than 1 month away, it will be a little disappointing. I totally understand that things change and it was really good to hear from you. I don't at all doubt that a lot of progress has been made. I'm just explaining that's where the expectations came from.
Yes. No one here is pointing fingers, spreading unfounded rumors, or picketing outside VR headquarters, so there is no need to give us what felt like the middle finger/guild remove speech Kilsin gave us in "Still No Stream" thread (I had to take a few days off the forums after reading those perfunctory responses). We are loyal, honest supporters, but we are hungry. The moral of the story is we just need something to hold us over to continue the hunt/spreading the good qualities and, most importantly, progress of the game to keep the community commensalistic, healthy, and thriving.
Sometimes perfunctory statements get perfunctory responses. If you are hungry, it should be common sense to not bite the hand that feeds you.
So my/our detailed responses over 3 threads regarding this issue are perfunctory compared to his responses that did not appease anyone or any of the questions we posed, and furthermore prompted additional comments/threads? With all respect, that is poor PR, no matter how much we love/respect Kilsin. Apart from your statement clearly making no sense, if you want to pick a fight in semantics and logic go to university. I'm here for Pantheon, and this just goes to show another example of the dissention between our own community members as a result of this issue. We can't talk about development when there isn't new material to be seen, and when logical statements about this are made, people with blind faith clinging to the devs such as yourself get the motherly instict to defend VR at all costs (and without any stated reasoning), which is completely counterproductive to these forums, development, and community as a whole.
And last time I checked, we feed them with donations, not vice versa. We wanted Vanguard, we wanted EQNext, we want Pantheon, if it's becomes another unfinished shell, we will all survive; however, that isn't what we want. It's also why we are trying to push them in the right direction in development/marketing which is what these forums are for. Try and leave some emotion/sensitivity at the door in place of objectivity... Taking a logical, respectful stand is not "biting" anyone. I don't know how many ways I can phrase how much we care about the game, which is obvious when you see the thought put into posts.
There shouldn't be any dissension if one understands how game development works. In the old days...we didn't get this much input on game development...the only time we were allowed in was when the game was almost complete and ready to show off for sales. There is no secret plot going on here, people are busy behind the scenes, working their tails off to get this out the door. No we don't have ALL the details, nor should we..lots of things like coding, programming, world building..team meetings going on behind the scenes that would probably bore the rest of us out of our minds.
No we can't get in and run around in there yet...till the Devs deem the game ready to allow a few hundred people in for TESTING purposes. More than likely still placeholder images and other temporary things going on at this point. The first ones that will be let in the game (after the inhouse testers...staff) will be the PRE-alpha testers, those that ponied up the $1000.00 or more as pledges. We'll be giving feedback, bug reports, trying to break things ..etc this is serious stuff. Once that is done the alpha testers will be let in (depending on your pledge) and then the beta testers. VR has stated there will be a full year of TESTING...so that's where we stand now. Patience is required here. I have that..do you? :)
Cana
Bazgrim said:Aradune said:Mandalorian2K said:I was an original pledger to the KS and so I got the update. I think it's a really good idea to continue posting updates there in case some of those people didn't move over and pledge here like I did. That being said, there was one part of the update that I was hoping to get clarification on and that is the bolded part about the next stream.
I was under the impression that we were closer than a couple months away from the next stream. I know it has been stated as soon and you were putting the finishing touches on two new zones. I figured we were maybe a few weeks to a month away at most, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what was stated there. This isn't a sky is falling post or complaint, I'm just anxious to see the progress since the last stream and was hoping we were a little closer than a few months away to the next stream.
I just wanted to say thanks for taking the risk on making this game for all of us that have felt orphaned the past decade plus and for picking yourselves up and continuing to fight through the adversity of that failed KS. I can't wait to play this game. I've played many other MMOs over the years, but have basically been without a home since leaving EQ when they started dumbing it down and making it more solo friendly. It's no longer the game I fondly remember in it's current form and I'm looking forward to playing something that more closely resembles EQ Classic/Kunark/Velious era. I play P99 occasionally to scratch that itch until Pantheon releases. Thanks again for all you do!
I appreciate your perspective. We would rather under promise and over deliever. The next stream is running on time but I don't believe we've ever been specific about when it's happening.
To be fair, in the last stream you specifically said "we don't know exactly when the next one will be, but it won't be another 6 months". It has currently been a little over 4 months. So if the next stream is much longer than 1 month away, it will be a little disappointing. I totally understand that things change and it was really good to hear from you. I don't at all doubt that a lot of progress has been made. I'm just explaining that's where the expectations came from.
Last stream was in early December so...January, February, and we're mid March now.. will be four months April 10th.
Sadly, the chunk of funding needed usually comes near the end when it is not needed so much, rather than at the beginning. This is my assumption.
I dont know anything about the process but right now, just does not feel right. I am being spooky, I know.
I have upped my monthly, regular pledge.
(I imagine the slam-dunk will be: the first minute of a Xhr stream. opening: nothing said, no fanfare. The back of a Character, sudden realization by the viewer of what the ambient noise means, hazy- obscure in the distance- things darting by... and up... changing direction on a dime. Must be a cloudy sky?. And the view of the characters back and she takes a step- wait, that's not lev! blub-blub. cuts to black- VR logo- fade to the PC's in another area, chat starts, devs in their familiar names on the sandy zone.)
Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Aradune said:Mandalorian2K said:I was an original pledger to the KS and so I got the update. I think it's a really good idea to continue posting updates there in case some of those people didn't move over and pledge here like I did. That being said, there was one part of the update that I was hoping to get clarification on and that is the bolded part about the next stream.
I was under the impression that we were closer than a couple months away from the next stream. I know it has been stated as soon and you were putting the finishing touches on two new zones. I figured we were maybe a few weeks to a month away at most, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what was stated there. This isn't a sky is falling post or complaint, I'm just anxious to see the progress since the last stream and was hoping we were a little closer than a few months away to the next stream.
I just wanted to say thanks for taking the risk on making this game for all of us that have felt orphaned the past decade plus and for picking yourselves up and continuing to fight through the adversity of that failed KS. I can't wait to play this game. I've played many other MMOs over the years, but have basically been without a home since leaving EQ when they started dumbing it down and making it more solo friendly. It's no longer the game I fondly remember in it's current form and I'm looking forward to playing something that more closely resembles EQ Classic/Kunark/Velious era. I play P99 occasionally to scratch that itch until Pantheon releases. Thanks again for all you do!
I appreciate your perspective. We would rather under promise and over deliever. The next stream is running on time but I don't believe we've ever been specific about when it's happening.
To be fair, in the last stream you specifically said "we don't know exactly when the next one will be, but it won't be another 6 months". It has currently been a little over 4 months. So if the next stream is much longer than 1 month away, it will be a little disappointing. I totally understand that things change and it was really good to hear from you. I don't at all doubt that a lot of progress has been made. I'm just explaining that's where the expectations came from.
Yes. No one here is pointing fingers, spreading unfounded rumors, or picketing outside VR headquarters, so there is no need to give us what felt like the middle finger/guild remove speech Kilsin gave us in "Still No Stream" thread (I had to take a few days off the forums after reading those perfunctory responses). We are loyal, honest supporters, but we are hungry. The moral of the story is we just need something to hold us over to continue the hunt/spreading the good qualities and, most importantly, progress of the game to keep the community commensalistic, healthy, and thriving.
Sometimes perfunctory statements get perfunctory responses. If you are hungry, it should be common sense to not bite the hand that feeds you.
So my/our detailed responses over 3 threads regarding this issue are perfunctory compared to his responses that did not appease anyone or any of the questions we posed, and furthermore prompted additional comments/threads? With all respect, that is poor PR, no matter how much we love/respect Kilsin. Apart from your statement clearly making no sense, if you want to pick a fight in semantics and logic go to university. I'm here for Pantheon, and this just goes to show another example of the dissention between our own community members as a result of this issue. We can't talk about development when there isn't new material to be seen, and when logical statements about this are made, people with blind faith clinging to the devs such as yourself get the motherly instict to defend VR at all costs (and without any stated reasoning), which is completely counterproductive to these forums, development, and community as a whole.
And last time I checked, we feed them with donations, not vice versa. We wanted Vanguard, we wanted EQNext, we want Pantheon, if it's becomes another unfinished shell, we will all survive; however, that isn't what we want. It's also why we are trying to push them in the right direction in development/marketing which is what these forums are for. Try and leave some emotion/sensitivity at the door in place of objectivity... Taking a logical, respectful stand is not "biting" anyone. I don't know how many ways I can phrase how much we care about the game, which is obvious when you see the thought put into posts.
Moving to DMs to keep it civil. Check your messages.
I'm quite sure that by now VR knows that more information would be appreciated. I'm sure they realize the more information they provide the better it is for their bottom line, via subscriptions and such. What that leaves us with is at this time they have no new information, or no information that would excite those clamoring for more. Repeatedly requesting more only makes sense if you think they believe it to be a new request. I've been here since 2014. Your requests are not new. VR is aware they can't provide enough information fast enough for a portion of those following the game, possibly a sizeable portion. Hanging on every date mentioned will drive you, and them crazy. It reinforces the idea to provide no dates because if you don't make it another wave of nay saying will be forthcoming. If VR doesn't make the 5 month timeline for the next stream, well it won't be the first they have missed. Pre-alpha testing originally was to have started last year! Guess what sh!t happens. I donated $1000.00 to see this game developed. I don't expect anything. I hope to see it released. I figured a bought them a few pizzas early on so they could keep programming on a full stomach...
They have angel investors, people that have invested and want a monetary return on their investment, to keep after them and keep them progressing. We are just impatient gamers. Would I llike to see more? Yes. I know it, they know it. They are working on it. I pledged kickstarter, lurked first few months of these forums. I jumped in when the first wave of folks ran out of steam and I felt the forums needed new voices to keep things lively. I had 100's of replies purged after 2014. Now not so many, because you must manage your expectations with small indie start up or you will burn out. Brad McQuaid, big name, small (but growing) team. Pace yourselves folks. I don't expect (there it is again) game launch before late 2019, maybe later. New forums, they're coming; next stream, it's coming; class information, it's coming; crafting (near and dear to my heart so I toss it in here) they've started, or so I'm led to believe.
Lastly what are you expecting Kilsin to say? "You're right we've been sitting on all this information but your words have convinced me to release it?" I could never do his job. "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" Might I suggest yoga or tai chi. We'll get there when we get there.
I proposed an idea in the VIP Discord channel last night that was pretty well received. For future streams, I'd like to see them announced 2-4 weeks ahead of time. Allow players to make donations to purchase a raffle ticket of sorts that would allow them to upgrade their pledge level if their ticket is drawn. This could be done in a variety of ways, but on the high end, several players suggested that they would make a $100 donation for a chance to win the Ascendant Pledge. Other than that, it would be more of a social event than an info/content update -- allow players to make a donation for maybe $20 or so and they could then ask a question that the streamer could relay over to the VR team while on air. Personally I think 2-4 weeks is plenty enough advance notice to allow the community to build hype, and I would expect a significant increase in overall turnout. Giving people a chance to upgrade their pledge by purchasing raffle tickets is just icing on the cake. I would also recommend switching up the streamers from time to time for maximum exposure -- the streamer gets exclusive access to a highly sought after session, and VR gets to pocket all the donations while also extending their reach to additional fanbases.
Brad's notion of under promising and over delivering is the best route moving forward and at this point I think we need to reassess the situation for what it is and temper our expectations. It's possible that VR is working on implementing some new features/concepts that they want to be kept secret for proprietary reasons and that it would be very difficult to launch a stream while some of that stuff is going on in the background. We're in crunch time right now and that means that they are super honed in on fleshing out the game. If you're getting bored or overly anxious, I would recommend that you hop in one of the Pantheon Discord channels and start networking with the community. There are lively conversations taking place every day and night now ... get in there and join one of the discussions!
CanadinaXegony said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:There shouldn't be any dissension if one understands how game development works. In the old days...we didn't get this much input on game development...the only time we were allowed in was when the game was almost complete and ready to show off for sales. There is no secret plot going on here, people are busy behind the scenes, working their tails off to get this out the door. No we don't have ALL the details, nor should we..lots of things like coding, programming, world building..team meetings going on behind the scenes that would probably bore the rest of us out of our minds.
No we can't get in and run around in there yet...till the Devs deem the game ready to allow a few hundred people in for TESTING purposes. More than likely still placeholder images and other temporary things going on at this point. The first ones that will be let in the game (after the inhouse testers...staff) will be the PRE-alpha testers, those that ponied up the $1000.00 or more as pledges. We'll be giving feedback, bug reports, trying to break things ..etc this is serious stuff. Once that is done the alpha testers will be let in (depending on your pledge) and then the beta testers. VR has stated there will be a full year of TESTING...so that's where we stand now. Patience is required here. I have that..do you? :)
Cana
Well, this is definitely not the old days... not in terms of development and not in terms of funding. Not sure why you can't see that Zuljan has a valid point. Plenty of us who are patient, plenty of us who are eager, plenty of us with expectations. It's important that the devs see and hear from all view points. Especially the "impatient" ones given this thread is asking for direct feedback about expanding interest. If you can't keep those who have already donated happy, what makes you think it'll translate well to a larger audience?
I know I sound like I'm attacking you here, and that's not really my point. Just trying to point out the validity of Zuljin's post and that VR should definitely not pass it aside as the fickle few.
Archaen said:CanadinaXegony said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:There shouldn't be any dissension if one understands how game development works. In the old days...we didn't get this much input on game development...the only time we were allowed in was when the game was almost complete and ready to show off for sales. There is no secret plot going on here, people are busy behind the scenes, working their tails off to get this out the door. No we don't have ALL the details, nor should we..lots of things like coding, programming, world building..team meetings going on behind the scenes that would probably bore the rest of us out of our minds.
No we can't get in and run around in there yet...till the Devs deem the game ready to allow a few hundred people in for TESTING purposes. More than likely still placeholder images and other temporary things going on at this point. The first ones that will be let in the game (after the inhouse testers...staff) will be the PRE-alpha testers, those that ponied up the $1000.00 or more as pledges. We'll be giving feedback, bug reports, trying to break things ..etc this is serious stuff. Once that is done the alpha testers will be let in (depending on your pledge) and then the beta testers. VR has stated there will be a full year of TESTING...so that's where we stand now. Patience is required here. I have that..do you? :)
Cana
Well, this is definitely not the old days... not in terms of development and not in terms of funding. Not sure why you can't see that Zuljan has a valid point. Plenty of us who are patient, plenty of us who are eager, plenty of us with expectations. It's important that the devs see and hear from all view points. Especially the "impatient" ones given this thread is asking for direct feedback about expanding interest. If you can't keep those who have already donated happy, what makes you think it'll translate well to a larger audience?
I know I sound like I'm attacking you here, and that's not really my point. Just trying to point out the validity of Zuljin's post and that VR should definitely not pass it aside as the fickle few.
I realize that this isn't the old days...what this is ..is a SMALL team working on a tight budget. With lots of motivation and heart. The Devs have been seeing our expectations..since Feb 2014 this is nothing new. They've seen and heard all the view points..since that time. You think the rest of us haven't been participating and giving opinions since day one? I am pretty sure they've heard it all ten times over. Yes everyone has a point and their opinions are valuable. What I was trying to do is create a better understanding of the process. This isn't a "I want it now so therefore I should have it now" project. Everything takes time, some limitations due to not being affiliated with a large rich publisher like Blizzard or Electronic Arts where things happen a lot faster.....this is a small team existing on just enough funds to keep the project going til the next investor or pledger. Let's keep the expectations on what we have now. Not only do they need our pledges, they also need our moral support. An "atta guy" every so often wouldn't hurt. These guys are putting their hearts into this project, and that shouldn't be forgotten. That's my opinion and I am standing by it. :)
Cana
Aradune said:Thanks all. You're right -- it's audience is definitely someone who hasn't been keeping themselves up-to-date, which is pretty much the opposite of you crazy, unpredictable, and out of control mob! :)
That said, it could be useful in terms of spreading the word? As you find people who were interested before but haven't shared the amazing patience you all have, this might be a way and a message that gets their attention, that resonates with them....
We need more and more ways of having a shared and dedicated strike team, shared between the devs and community... then whatever their question is, or conern, or even doubt, then boom! We know exaclty what to refer them to.
Obviously we have the FB and web page, then the forums (here and elsewhere). We have our tenets, the Patheon Difference, and the recently updated uber-FAQ. Even more recently we've updated the Wiki and while I see a lot of petential there, I don't think it's quite what we're looking for just yet. We've been regularly updating the screenshot section -- what do you all think of that? Too much too often, or the opposite?
And then of course you have our twitch streams that have been so amazingly successful -- far beyond our hopes and dreams. Of course, we have to move the project forward and as much fun as it is to prep for one and then be able to show off and share with the community.. we're definitely commited to doing those every 4-6 months and with different streamers to hopefully reach demographics thus far totally unapped.
Understandng social media is of course a huge part of this and a continual effort. I think we're doing so-so there (not a slight on anyone by any means, but hey, if you can't be tough on yourself you really shouldn't be making an MMO, lol. The wiki page is finally officially up, but clearly a ways to go before it's in the state we all want it in.
Anyway, quick mind-dump there. Let's brainstorm together and tackle this head on! Onward and upward, as always!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's been a while since you've done interviews with youtubers (like Boogie2988). I'd also suggest maybe sitting in a podcast with Rooster Teeth. Their main office is in Austin, TX but they have a satellite office (Fun Haus) in Los Angeles, CA. They would probably give you the most exposure.
Brad, I disagree that giving us more information will help or appease anyone. Lots of entitled-type folk complaining here, but the longer you allow us to imagine our optimal Pantheon without dishing out details, the less division you'll get from existing pledgers by mitigating the number of people unhappy with the way you decide to do item trading (AH?), class balance, mapping, etc. etc.
I mean, we're all gonna play your game regardless of how fast you tell us these things from now through release, so it's up to you guys to make it into a longlasting, worthy title, but appeasing the info-hippos now isn't make or break.
Some of ya'll need to calm down. It's a team of 15 who've been at it under 3 years. No level of pledging ever guaranteed you anything, especially information at your personal acceptable pace, nor did it guarantee the game would absolutely make it to release. This is why we donate and not purchase. If you weren't or aren't willing to accept the potential loss of your money, then may that lesson in prudency hopefully never reach you. We offered our money to an idea, to a hope. And it's not like the streams aren't proof they've got soup cooking.
Become more positive. As some say, worry is a misuse of the imagination.
Zuljan said:So after multiple threads, one being locked, and over 20 people voicing the same concerns (for the first time during Pantheon's development mind you), we are basically being told to keep talking about "what we hope for," the way we have been for the past 4months-3 years while we are patiently waiting for nothing more than updates/screenshots (just SOMETHING) that isn't from the same 2/3 zones and 2/3 character models/races shown on the last stream. With all due respect, it feels like a slap on the face to read that after we've all kept our mouths closed and patient, backing this game on mmorpg etc (and for good reason, as nothing has been empty words up until [possible] now) for months, and some people for years.
Seriously, you're exhausting. Where do you find the time? Doesn't the Trump administration spit out enough nonsense to occupy your time? Surely there's a greater cause to focus your efforts than blowing the whistle on a startup game developer...
Stating that your comments are the first time anyone in this community has raised or voiced concern is ignorant, insulting and dismissive. You implicate your omniscience while the rest of us are deaf, blind and dumb...cute. You need to get a job.
Yes. No one here is pointing fingers, spreading unfounded rumors, or picketing outside VR headquarters, so there is no need to give us what felt like the middle finger/guild remove speech Kilsin gave us in "Still No Stream" thread (I had to take a few days off the forums after reading those perfunctory responses). We are loyal, honest supporters, but we are hungry. The moral of the story is we just need something to hold us over to continue the hunt/spreading the good qualities and, most importantly, progress of the game to keep the community commensalistic, healthy, and thriving.
You realize that they aren't going to give you a stream or an update for everything they do, that's just completely unlogical and like Kilsin said they were working on other parts of the game that weren't exactly able to see but just as important, im guessing like pathing, aggro ranges, intangible things like this that are still very important to the game but not able to really be shown cuase most people re more interested in the graphics of the game. So, he wasn't giving you the middle finger, to be honest it almost felt the way i was reading the post you were giving VR the middle finger. btw i believe your nothing but a troll, so replying to my post will do you no good for i wont respond to it.
Bazgrim said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Aradune said:Mandalorian2K said:I was an original pledger to the KS and so I got the update. I think it's a really good idea to continue posting updates there in case some of those people didn't move over and pledge here like I did. That being said, there was one part of the update that I was hoping to get clarification on and that is the bolded part about the next stream.
I was under the impression that we were closer than a couple months away from the next stream. I know it has been stated as soon and you were putting the finishing touches on two new zones. I figured we were maybe a few weeks to a month away at most, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what was stated there. This isn't a sky is falling post or complaint, I'm just anxious to see the progress since the last stream and was hoping we were a little closer than a few months away to the next stream.
I just wanted to say thanks for taking the risk on making this game for all of us that have felt orphaned the past decade plus and for picking yourselves up and continuing to fight through the adversity of that failed KS. I can't wait to play this game. I've played many other MMOs over the years, but have basically been without a home since leaving EQ when they started dumbing it down and making it more solo friendly. It's no longer the game I fondly remember in it's current form and I'm looking forward to playing something that more closely resembles EQ Classic/Kunark/Velious era. I play P99 occasionally to scratch that itch until Pantheon releases. Thanks again for all you do!
I appreciate your perspective. We would rather under promise and over deliever. The next stream is running on time but I don't believe we've ever been specific about when it's happening.
To be fair, in the last stream you specifically said "we don't know exactly when the next one will be, but it won't be another 6 months". It has currently been a little over 4 months. So if the next stream is much longer than 1 month away, it will be a little disappointing. I totally understand that things change and it was really good to hear from you. I don't at all doubt that a lot of progress has been made. I'm just explaining that's where the expectations came from.
Yes. No one here is pointing fingers, spreading unfounded rumors, or picketing outside VR headquarters, so there is no need to give us what felt like the middle finger/guild remove speech Kilsin gave us in "Still No Stream" thread (I had to take a few days off the forums after reading those perfunctory responses). We are loyal, honest supporters, but we are hungry. The moral of the story is we just need something to hold us over to continue the hunt/spreading the good qualities and, most importantly, progress of the game to keep the community commensalistic, healthy, and thriving.
Sometimes perfunctory statements get perfunctory responses. If you are hungry, it should be common sense to not bite the hand that feeds you.
So my/our detailed responses over 3 threads regarding this issue are perfunctory compared to his responses that did not appease anyone or any of the questions we posed, and furthermore prompted additional comments/threads? With all respect, that is poor PR, no matter how much we love/respect Kilsin. Apart from your statement clearly making no sense, if you want to pick a fight in semantics and logic go to university. I'm here for Pantheon, and this just goes to show another example of the dissention between our own community members as a result of this issue. We can't talk about development when there isn't new material to be seen, and when logical statements about this are made, people with blind faith clinging to the devs such as yourself get the motherly instict to defend VR at all costs (and without any stated reasoning), which is completely counterproductive to these forums, development, and community as a whole.
And last time I checked, we feed them with donations, not vice versa. We wanted Vanguard, we wanted EQNext, we want Pantheon, if it's becomes another unfinished shell, we will all survive; however, that isn't what we want. It's also why we are trying to push them in the right direction in development/marketing which is what these forums are for. Try and leave some emotion/sensitivity at the door in place of objectivity... Taking a logical, respectful stand is not "biting" anyone. I don't know how many ways I can phrase how much we care about the game, which is obvious when you see the thought put into posts.
Moving to DMs to keep it civil. Check your messages.
When exactly did Bazgrim here get hired on as a moderator? It's one thing to point people to threads but telling people they can not voice their opinions for or against is a bit out of your range. Sorry
oneADseven said:I proposed an idea in the VIP Discord channel last night that was pretty well received. For future streams, I'd like to see them announced 2-4 weeks ahead of time. Allow players to make donations to purchase a raffle ticket of sorts that would allow them to upgrade their pledge level if their ticket is drawn. This could be done in a variety of ways, but on the high end, several players suggested that they would make a $100 donation for a chance to win the Ascendant Pledge. Other than that, it would be more of a social event than an info/content update -- allow players to make a donation for maybe $20 or so and they could then ask a question that the streamer could relay over to the VR team while on air. Personally I think 2-4 weeks is plenty enough advance notice to allow the community to build hype, and I would expect a significant increase in overall turnout. Giving people a chance to upgrade their pledge by purchasing raffle tickets is just icing on the cake. I would also recommend switching up the streamers from time to time for maximum exposure -- the streamer gets exclusive access to a highly sought after session, and VR gets to pocket all the donations while also extending their reach to additional fanbases.
Sorry disagree 150% here.
You're simply trying to get your self a dungeon design pledge but the fact is that they can't just hand those out and sit there for days/weeks with 10 different people creating dungeons. The reason that feature costs so much is because of the amount of effort and work involved in it. Some things people come up with would require hundreds of hours of coding work alone to even make feasible.
Unless you are putting in the money for the perk, then it's a huge waste of VR's time and resources. Making it a raffle and giving that away for nothing? Nope. Will never be on board with that
Nikademis said:Zuljan said:So after multiple threads, one being locked, and over 20 people voicing the same concerns (for the first time during Pantheon's development mind you), we are basically being told to keep talking about "what we hope for," the way we have been for the past 4months-3 years while we are patiently waiting for nothing more than updates/screenshots (just SOMETHING) that isn't from the same 2/3 zones and 2/3 character models/races shown on the last stream. With all due respect, it feels like a slap on the face to read that after we've all kept our mouths closed and patient, backing this game on mmorpg etc (and for good reason, as nothing has been empty words up until [possible] now) for months, and some people for years.
Seriously, you're exhausting. Where do you find the time? Doesn't the Trump administration spit out enough nonsense to occupy your time? Surely there's a greater cause to focus your efforts than blowing the whistle on a startup game developer...
Stating that your comments are the first time anyone in this community has raised or voiced concern is ignorant, insulting and dismissive. You implicate your omniscience while the rest of us are deaf, blind and dumb...cute. You need to get a job.
While I agree with the 2nd statement here, let's not throw the forums into a political agenda here. Disagreeing with someone is fine. Not every person here believes in the same.
Enitzu said:Bazgrim said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Zuljan said:Bazgrim said:Aradune said:Mandalorian2K said:I was an original pledger to the KS and so I got the update. I think it's a really good idea to continue posting updates there in case some of those people didn't move over and pledge here like I did. That being said, there was one part of the update that I was hoping to get clarification on and that is the bolded part about the next stream.
I was under the impression that we were closer than a couple months away from the next stream. I know it has been stated as soon and you were putting the finishing touches on two new zones. I figured we were maybe a few weeks to a month away at most, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what was stated there. This isn't a sky is falling post or complaint, I'm just anxious to see the progress since the last stream and was hoping we were a little closer than a few months away to the next stream.
I just wanted to say thanks for taking the risk on making this game for all of us that have felt orphaned the past decade plus and for picking yourselves up and continuing to fight through the adversity of that failed KS. I can't wait to play this game. I've played many other MMOs over the years, but have basically been without a home since leaving EQ when they started dumbing it down and making it more solo friendly. It's no longer the game I fondly remember in it's current form and I'm looking forward to playing something that more closely resembles EQ Classic/Kunark/Velious era. I play P99 occasionally to scratch that itch until Pantheon releases. Thanks again for all you do!
I appreciate your perspective. We would rather under promise and over deliever. The next stream is running on time but I don't believe we've ever been specific about when it's happening.
To be fair, in the last stream you specifically said "we don't know exactly when the next one will be, but it won't be another 6 months". It has currently been a little over 4 months. So if the next stream is much longer than 1 month away, it will be a little disappointing. I totally understand that things change and it was really good to hear from you. I don't at all doubt that a lot of progress has been made. I'm just explaining that's where the expectations came from.
Yes. No one here is pointing fingers, spreading unfounded rumors, or picketing outside VR headquarters, so there is no need to give us what felt like the middle finger/guild remove speech Kilsin gave us in "Still No Stream" thread (I had to take a few days off the forums after reading those perfunctory responses). We are loyal, honest supporters, but we are hungry. The moral of the story is we just need something to hold us over to continue the hunt/spreading the good qualities and, most importantly, progress of the game to keep the community commensalistic, healthy, and thriving.
Sometimes perfunctory statements get perfunctory responses. If you are hungry, it should be common sense to not bite the hand that feeds you.
So my/our detailed responses over 3 threads regarding this issue are perfunctory compared to his responses that did not appease anyone or any of the questions we posed, and furthermore prompted additional comments/threads? With all respect, that is poor PR, no matter how much we love/respect Kilsin. Apart from your statement clearly making no sense, if you want to pick a fight in semantics and logic go to university. I'm here for Pantheon, and this just goes to show another example of the dissention between our own community members as a result of this issue. We can't talk about development when there isn't new material to be seen, and when logical statements about this are made, people with blind faith clinging to the devs such as yourself get the motherly instict to defend VR at all costs (and without any stated reasoning), which is completely counterproductive to these forums, development, and community as a whole.
And last time I checked, we feed them with donations, not vice versa. We wanted Vanguard, we wanted EQNext, we want Pantheon, if it's becomes another unfinished shell, we will all survive; however, that isn't what we want. It's also why we are trying to push them in the right direction in development/marketing which is what these forums are for. Try and leave some emotion/sensitivity at the door in place of objectivity... Taking a logical, respectful stand is not "biting" anyone. I don't know how many ways I can phrase how much we care about the game, which is obvious when you see the thought put into posts.
Moving to DMs to keep it civil. Check your messages.
When exactly did Bazgrim here get hired on as a moderator? It's one thing to point people to threads but telling people they can not voice their opinions for or against is a bit out of your range. Sorry
I'm not acting as a moderator. I just prefer to take 1-on-1 personal discussions to private messages so as to not derail the threads. For the record, I did not tell Zuljan that he cannot voice his opinion. In fact, quite the opposite. I appreciate his passion for the game and I believe he has the best interest of the game in mind. To that end, I basically just wanted to try to clarify some things that he appears to be incorrectly assuming and talk to him about expressing his opinions and desires in less inflammatory ways, for the sake of better discussion for all of us. I do that as someone that simply cares about the community, not in an authoritative way.
Enitzu said:Nikademis said:Zuljan said:So after multiple threads, one being locked, and over 20 people voicing the same concerns (for the first time during Pantheon's development mind you), we are basically being told to keep talking about "what we hope for," the way we have been for the past 4months-3 years while we are patiently waiting for nothing more than updates/screenshots (just SOMETHING) that isn't from the same 2/3 zones and 2/3 character models/races shown on the last stream. With all due respect, it feels like a slap on the face to read that after we've all kept our mouths closed and patient, backing this game on mmorpg etc (and for good reason, as nothing has been empty words up until [possible] now) for months, and some people for years.
Seriously, you're exhausting. Where do you find the time? Doesn't the Trump administration spit out enough nonsense to occupy your time? Surely there's a greater cause to focus your efforts than blowing the whistle on a startup game developer...
Stating that your comments are the first time anyone in this community has raised or voiced concern is ignorant, insulting and dismissive. You implicate your omniscience while the rest of us are deaf, blind and dumb...cute. You need to get a job.
While I agree with the 2nd statement here, let's not throw the forums into a political agenda here. Disagreeing with someone is fine. Not every person here believes in the same.
The comment was tongue-in-cheek, not an actual political statement. Not to mention I don't even live in the States (like many from this community).
Nikademis said:Enitzu said:Nikademis said:Zuljan said:So after multiple threads, one being locked, and over 20 people voicing the same concerns (for the first time during Pantheon's development mind you), we are basically being told to keep talking about "what we hope for," the way we have been for the past 4months-3 years while we are patiently waiting for nothing more than updates/screenshots (just SOMETHING) that isn't from the same 2/3 zones and 2/3 character models/races shown on the last stream. With all due respect, it feels like a slap on the face to read that after we've all kept our mouths closed and patient, backing this game on mmorpg etc (and for good reason, as nothing has been empty words up until [possible] now) for months, and some people for years.
Seriously, you're exhausting. Where do you find the time? Doesn't the Trump administration spit out enough nonsense to occupy your time? Surely there's a greater cause to focus your efforts than blowing the whistle on a startup game developer...
Stating that your comments are the first time anyone in this community has raised or voiced concern is ignorant, insulting and dismissive. You implicate your omniscience while the rest of us are deaf, blind and dumb...cute. You need to get a job.
While I agree with the 2nd statement here, let's not throw the forums into a political agenda here. Disagreeing with someone is fine. Not every person here believes in the same.
The comment was tongue-in-cheek, not an actual political statement. Not to mention I don't even live in the States (like many from this community).
Definitely, but it's still probably best to not even go there. There's always at least one person that'll get triggered. Tough-in-cheek doesn't really translate well in text form haha.
Enitzu said:Unless you are putting in the money for the perk, then it's a huge waste of VR's time and resources. Making it a raffle and giving that away for nothing? Nope. Will never be on board with that
I think when he hinted at the 100$ raffle ticket aspect, the idea would be to sell more tickets than the pledge is, but 100 tickets at 100$ a pop just to break even on that one prize?.. shrug...
Maybe they could add in other low-cost, low-effort prizes for the raffle, like in game titles "the lucky" or some power neutral in-game item(s). I mean, shoot, I'm down for any way that's going to help support the game while not creating any long diversions for the team.
Overall, when you consider the accounting side of it, keeping track of a new set of donators / tickets / etc., and then following through on the prize end of it down the line, it seems like more trouble than it could be worth. Perhaps instead, during the stream, they could just do a few cool giveaways (you know, small stuff, not an Ascendant pledge) for the viewers, and advertise that as part of the streams appeal. Generate a bit of excitement. On twitch, more viewers breeds more viewers.
Amsai said: Man...... and this started out to be such a great thread too. Just for the record I have yet to see one valid concern listed. No promises have been broken. No perceived times/dates expired. And though the progress is slow it has been steady and relected in each new stream. Which will be the case for the next stream as well. VR has been pretty consistent with lose time frames. So just settle down and enjoy the ride.
This right here.
For all of you demanding more you need to realize you are actually the reason why they wont give more information out. It's people like you that will hold the developer accountable for every little thing they say. So when they try and share something with us and it gets held up or delayed you will scream foul. So if they say alph will start in 3 months and then something comes up that pushes it back an extra month you scream. Well what if 7 more things come up and now its 4 months more? Now you cry vaporware and fraud. It's best they keep doing what they are doing and keep most of it to themselves.
So when they say another stream in 4-6 months it should not be an issue if its really 6-9 months. Be glad you get anything at all. You didnt pay for information. You paid to support a game. Thats it. And until that game is a real product that you are paying for I don't see how a reasonable adult could possible complain or make demands of it.
I want more information as well but I have enough sense to know I am not entitled to it. Besides of of the best things about old EQ was the anticipation. Grinding for days, weeks, camping spawns to suddenly get that special shiny thing.Well folks we are grinding right now. And when the stream/pre alph/release gets here thats out shiny new sword. More grinding less complaining I say.
We are here to help development (the purpose of these forums). To that end, while you/we may have 'issues' about the game's progress - perceived, actual or imagined ... the aim is not merely to voice them, but to offer suggestions. Then other posters can assess these options and, perhaps, weigh in on them.
If it spirals into merely a spleen-venting discourse, then Kisin is duty-bound to lock the thread...
... as it would then be serving no developmental purpose.
So, leading by example:
1. I think a monthly 'state of the game' for the old KS site is sensible (possibly re-connect with sleeping backers)
2. I think the updates (Screen-shots/newsletters) are helpful to generate interest,
3. I think that it is too early in the development to start a hype-train, but:
4. I think many 'older' (as in been backers/pledges for longer) supporters are marginally fatigued and
I think the fanbase (both here and on fan-sites) are marginally starved of concrete points to debate.
To that end, I might suggest :
1. Continue with streams (possibly increase frequency at expense of durations)
Maybe move to every 3 months, for 90 mins. [developers + streamer]
Maybe add stream every 1 month, for 60 mins. [1 CS/DEV + streamer + 4 VIP's]
2. Minor 'reveal' added every month [offset from newsletter by 2 weeks]
This can (and perhaps should) be a cryptic reveal. Take a photo of a handwritten document of the 'current'
thinking on a mechanic, or concept art etc, then stretch it, invert it or somehow make it only a partial bit
of the whole image... with pieces revealed once per week to be stitched together.
It is easy to understand the frustration many feel as I suspect we are currently in the developmental 'doldrums'....
... close enough to the Pre-Alpha for the developers to be stuck in lengthy 'behind-the-scenes' works,
... far enough away that they still have many un-locked features in place which they cannot reveal.
Even so, it behoves us to help as best we can.
Evoras, hopes he wins the raffle to take part in a stream!
The problem I have is there is a seperation of the "forum" based on a price tag.
Why , are serious game discussions and fundemental concepts being discussed in VIP only ? Because they paid more ? That is strawman argument at this point of development imo.
All information / concepts need to be shared across the forum. I think this will go to great lengths to stop the kind of derail of threads that are starting to happen more frequent.