So we had a lively conversation in the VIP Discord channel regarding the concept of "soulbound" gear today. Several of us have expressed a concern regarding items becoming bound to them after they are enchanted/imbued through crafting. Our understanding is that this process is a means to an end regarding items leaving the economy, much like players sacrificing gear to their deity to earn favor. Personally, I like the old days where everything was tradeable with a few exceptions ... basically, two item types -- tradeable, and no-trade.
The idea we have been kicking around is that items could be used as a form of currency to do various "things" in the world of Terminus. This would create a demand for all items as they will each have a static value. This value would work itself out over time, depending on the demand for people wanting to do all of these "things" in the game. Rather than asking for money, various NPC's would ask for loot. Money is still very valuable in the game because it will be a driving factor of how much expendable loot you can obtain if you don't want to spend hours farming it everyday in order to enjoy various aspects of gameplay. Each item would have it's own "currency value" and would be based on it's stats ... or basically, the stronger the item, the more it's worth in this "items being used as currency" system. For the sake of clarity, let's say a common item is worth 1, uncommon worth 3, treasured be worth 5, rare worth 10, very rare worth 20, and ultra rare worth 50. Those numbers are totally made up and would be tweaked as necessary, such as excluding common/uncommon items altogether. Here is what we came up with so far:
1) Create gatekeepers at various dungeons. Not sure how this could be achieved lore wise but maybe it's feasible. Basically, the gatekeeper requires you to make a sacrifice before you can ever enter their dungeon.
2) Wherever there are teleport spires, perhaps there is an NPC tied into them that requires some sort of weekly sacrifice to be attuned to them. This could be for the teleportation system as a whole, or tied into specific teleport spires.
3) Special events. This could be entering a coliseum/arena type event, a fishing tournament, horse racing, etc.
4) Deity sacrifices. This can provide some sort of temporary buff or a "favor" meter with chosen deity. The more you sacrifice, the higher your meter.
5) Disenchanting. Allow players to break down their items and turn them into materials. These can be used for whatever.
6) Faction. Allow players to sacrifice items to various tribes as a way to earn faction.
Anyway, just wanted to shoot this idea out to the community. The economy is an extremely important aspect of all MMO's and it's clear that VR wants items leaving the game, hence the deity sacrifices and crafting attunement processes that we are already aware of. But what happens if we expand on this and allow items to be used for so much more? I imagine that the economy would be booming because the value of every item would be worth so much more. The inherent value of each item wouldn't be tied directly into how much power it provides for your character, but rather the opportunities available to them in the game. Anyway, it sounds like there are plenty of other ways to utilize this system, but I would like to ask what everybody what their thoughts are on it?
*Edit -- Big thank you to Celevin, Morgnus, and Shucklighter for contributing to this idea.
This is such an important discussion. Creating a balanced item economy---one where items_in does not too far exceed items_out over time---is a prime ingredient for a long lasting MMO. Just look at EVE.
I really love the idea of having items exit the world in exchange for faction gains. All or most factions could have an NPC somewhere that will accept equipment for faction gains. The amount of faction gained would be based on the quality/rarity of the item.
This discussion basically started because of my dislike of the team's idea to have tailoring (enchanting, basically) an item to you also have the effect of making it soulbound. I want the memorable and meaningful items I have been promised, and I feel like forcing me to make an item disposable in order to gain a combat benefit (however slight) is going to keep me from getting my memorable and meaningful items. They can call it optional all they want, but for me and for many other players, that will feel obligatory. I think that's just a cute way of making everything BOE. I understand that they want to remove items from circulation to keep the economy healthy, but I don't think this should be done at the cost of items being memorable and meaningful. I really don't care how healthy the economy is if I don't care about the items that are circulating within it. There are much better ways to remove items from circulation that truly are optional, and I think this faction idea is one of them. Beautiful.
EDIT: Had an extra word in there.
It sounds like they have it covered well enough. If they are already keeping items scarce on top of item sacrifice and crafter customized stuff then it should be fine. If EQ had those things the economy I think it would have be terrible as everything high end would have been dramatically more expensive. It was hard enough farming up 8k for an FBSS as it was.
Not sure how I feel about the crafter customization locking up items as I think it will take too much out of the economy. Those kind of slight gear upgrades almost become mandatory at high levels.
Edit: Exactly this -
Shucklighter said:This discussion basically started because of my dislike of the team's idea to have tailoring (enchanting, basically) an item to you also have the effect of making it soulbound. I want the memorable and meaningful items I have been promised, and I feel like forcing me to make an item disposable in order to gain a combat benefit (however slight) is going to keep me from getting my memorable and meaningful items. They can call it optional all they want, but for me and for many other players, that will feel obligatory. I think that's just a cute way of making everything BOE. I understand that they want to remove items from circulation to keep the economy healthy, but I don't think this should be done at the cost of items being memorable and meaningful. I really don't care how healthy the economy is if I don't care about the items that are circulating within it. There are much better ways to remove items from circulation that truly are optional, and I think this faction idea is one of them. Beautiful.
EDIT: Had an extra word in there.
Iksar said:It sounds like they have it covered well enough. If they are already keeping items scarce on top of item sacrifice and crafter customized stuff then it should be fine. If EQ had those things the economy I think it would have be terrible as everything high end would have been dramatically more expensive. It was hard enough farming up 8k for an FBSS as it was.
Not sure how I feel about the crafter customization locking up items as I think it will take too much out of the economy. Those kind of slight gear upgrades almost become mandatory at high levels.
Edit: Exactly this -
Shucklighter said:This discussion basically started because of my dislike of the team's idea to have tailoring (enchanting, basically) an item to you also have the effect of making it soulbound. I want the memorable and meaningful items I have been promised, and I feel like forcing me to make an item disposable in order to gain a combat benefit (however slight) is going to keep me from getting my memorable and meaningful items. They can call it optional all they want, but for me and for many other players, that will feel obligatory. I think that's just a cute way of making everything BOE. I understand that they want to remove items from circulation to keep the economy healthy, but I don't think this should be done at the cost of items being memorable and meaningful. I really don't care how healthy the economy is if I don't care about the items that are circulating within it. There are much better ways to remove items from circulation that truly are optional, and I think this faction idea is one of them. Beautiful.
EDIT: Had an extra word in there.
Hey Iksar,
We only wanted to share some of the ideas of how this could work. I didn't mean to imply that all of them should be used. Maybe it would only be for faction? I guess the point here is that there are plenty of ways to take items out of the economy, and I can't think of any other game that has done something quite like this. Maybe there is a reason for that? This was just a random brainstorm session that popped up and I felt the conversation was important enough to warrant making a post. The discussion started because we aren't particularly fond of the idea of our gear becoming soulbound after we tailor it through crafting. With that said, we are also under the impression that the reason this is being done (tailored gear =soulbound) is to remove items from the game. Is this something that can be changed? I would much rather see loot leaving the game through the means covered in this thread than seeing my gear become permanently locked to me every time I tailor it for an upgrade.
The other thing to keep in mind is that if a system like this were to be adopted, it would be much easier to make money. So for all of those items that were difficult to purchase in EQ because of exorbitant prices, imagine if there was a static value established for every treasured or better item in the game. Making money should never be an issue because you can just go out into the world and get some loot that has an attractive baseline price. Combine all of this with various sorts of gold sinks (maybe even use gold instead of loot for some of the above "things") and suddenly everything is worth something to somebody. That's the kind of player driven economy that I would love to see.
oneADseven said:Hey Iksar,
We only wanted to share some of the ideas of how this could work. I didn't mean to imply that all of them should be used. Maybe it would only be for faction? I guess the point here is that there are plenty of ways to take items out of the economy, and I can't think of any other game that has done something quite like this. Maybe there is a reason for that? This was just a random brainstorm session that popped up and I felt the conversation was cool enough to warrant making a post. The discussion started because we aren't particularly fond of the idea of our gear becoming soulbound after we tailor it through crafting. With that said, we are also under the impression that the reason this is being done (tailored gear =soulbound) is to remove items from the game. Is this something that can be changed? I would much rather see loot leaving the game through the means covered in this thread than seeing my gear become permanently locked to me every time I tailor it for an upgrade.
The other thing to keep in mind is that if a system like this were to be adopted, it would be much easier to make money. So for all of those items that were difficult to purchase in EQ because of exorbitant prices, imagine if there was a static value established for every treasured or better item in the game. Making money should never be an issue because you can just go out into the world and get some loot that has an attractive baseline price. Combine all of this with various sorts of gold sinks (maybe even use gold instead of loot for some of the above "things") and suddenly everything is worth something to somebody. That's the kind of player driven economy that I would love to see.
Oh don't get me wrong, this is more a gripe with their own current proposed system. I don't see too much of a problem with your option 3, 4, and 5. I think removing items from the economy should be optional and never feel forced upon the player (like remaining attuned or to enter a dungeon would). I think other games haven't done things quite like this because almost everything since WoW has been BoE/BoP based to begin with.
Wouldn't any system that removes items from the economy make prices higher rather than lower? Assuming most money is made from selling items rather than farming mobs in a group, I think most items that hold decent value will be camped by people all over the leveling spectrum. So it is a bit harder than just going out and grabbing something else with a nice baseline, and I'd hate to further incentivize higher levels taking leveling camps from lower levels to solo farm.
I'll offer another idea off the top of my head to contribute though: A gambler/mystic NPC. You can trade rare/magic items to this NPC to either pay an item level based sum of platinum to disenchant the item into rare crafting mats or hand over the item and a lump of plat to transform it. Maybe a 60% chance to become a trinket item with x charges of a random spell, 30% chance to turn into another random rare/magic item of about the same item level, and a 5% chance to become something of higher level and a 5% chance to fail entirely. Not well thought out, just brainstorming here.
This might be better: Maybe some ancient masters in the world that give players prime scrolls for certain skills/spells or give certain seals/brands/signets for ability modifications not otherwise available in exchange for powerful items? Those would then be tradeable themselves however, so you aren't forced into sacrificing coveted high end items if you'd rather pay someone else to do it. But once used the scroll/etc is consumed and thus you have removed an item entirely from the system.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:Hey Iksar,
We only wanted to share some of the ideas of how this could work. I didn't mean to imply that all of them should be used. Maybe it would only be for faction? I guess the point here is that there are plenty of ways to take items out of the economy, and I can't think of any other game that has done something quite like this. Maybe there is a reason for that? This was just a random brainstorm session that popped up and I felt the conversation was cool enough to warrant making a post. The discussion started because we aren't particularly fond of the idea of our gear becoming soulbound after we tailor it through crafting. With that said, we are also under the impression that the reason this is being done (tailored gear =soulbound) is to remove items from the game. Is this something that can be changed? I would much rather see loot leaving the game through the means covered in this thread than seeing my gear become permanently locked to me every time I tailor it for an upgrade.
The other thing to keep in mind is that if a system like this were to be adopted, it would be much easier to make money. So for all of those items that were difficult to purchase in EQ because of exorbitant prices, imagine if there was a static value established for every treasured or better item in the game. Making money should never be an issue because you can just go out into the world and get some loot that has an attractive baseline price. Combine all of this with various sorts of gold sinks (maybe even use gold instead of loot for some of the above "things") and suddenly everything is worth something to somebody. That's the kind of player driven economy that I would love to see.
Oh don't get me wrong, this is more a gripe with their own current proposed system. I don't see too much of a problem with your option 3, 4, and 5. I think removing items from the economy should be optional and never feel forced upon the player (like remaining attuned or to enter a dungeon would). I think other games haven't done things quite like this because almost everything since WoW has been BoE/BoP based to begin with.
Wouldn't any system that removes items from the economy make prices higher rather than lower? Assuming most money is made from selling items rather than farming mobs in a group, I think most items that hold decent value will be camped by people all over the leveling spectrum. So it is a bit harder than just going out and grabbing something else with a nice baseline, and I'd hate to further incentivize higher levels taking leveling camps from lower levels to solo farm.
I'll offer another idea off the top of my head to contribute though: A gambler/mystic NPC. You can trade rare/magic items to this NPC to either pay an item level based sum of platinum to disenchant the item into rare crafting mats or hand over the item and a lump of plat to transform it. Maybe a 60% chance to become a trinket item with x charges of a random spell, 30% chance to turn into another random rare/magic item of about the same item level, and a 5% chance to become something of higher level and a 5% chance to fail entirely. Not well thought out, just brainstorming here.
Yes, removing items from the economy would indeed drive the price up for all items. What I envision though is that the really good items would be getting camped because people actually want to equip them, whereas people who are farming for gold/plat have infinitely more options to choose from. In virtually every MMO I have ever played, I have seen hundreds or even thousands of items that never get equipped. Their entire purpose in the game is to be used as merchant fodder. With this idea, there would actually be a demand for those items because they could be used for something such as faction. So rather than everybody selling their junk items to an NPC merchant, they would be able to sell them for a higher baseline price to other players. So for those who have expendable cash, you wouldn't have to spend hours upon hours of farming in order to earn faction, use teleport spires, enter dungeons, attend events, etc. For those who need cash, just go out and get some loot ... anything treasured or better will be worth something to someone so there wouldn't be as much need for people to lock down specific camps for specific items.
I well thought out idea, I like some of them more than others. For instance, if I take a trade that requires ingredients then I would like to gather some in the world, buy some from merchants and get some from melting down a valuable item. To me getting 100 of an item to turn in for faction is a great idea. I am not sure about special events or teleporting. I think teleporting should be for Druids and Wizards like in EQ1 and then special items that gain you access to certain areas, with a global cooldown. I don't see a problem with this system I just really hope we get to melt things down for ingredients. Great discussion sounds like you guys are thinking everything through.
Yeah, the idea with the spires/dungeon access were more farfetched, we were just tossing them out there as options should the need ever arise for items to go out of the system faster than they are coming in. I imagine only one or two would work perfectly fine but at the end of the day, there are plenty of ways to remove loot from the game. Knowing this, any one of these ideas could be added down the road. Maybe start off with faction or something else and see how things go ... if it isn't getting the job done, add one of the other options. Either way, what we are really trying to get to the bottom of is why enchanting an item needs to make it soulbound. If it's because VR wants items to leave the game, we would like to propose that there are other options out there to consider that could be much more favorable with the player base. Maybe I'm wrong ... this was just a random idea that popped up that had a small group of people agreeing with it. That's why I wanted to propose it here ... hopefully a bunch of people can chime in with their thoughts on the matter. At this point, there is still so much information about that game that is unknown to us and this entire conversation could be irrelvant. Maybe not though ... so it's worth a shot!
The problem that I have observed on P99 is that the item economy is so over inflated that I often had to resort to giving away good items, just to clean out my inventory. The idea is to strike a balance. If the number of items entering the game is about the same as the number of items leaving the game; prices will be stable. Easier said than done, I know, but I think that getting the item economy right could pay huge dividends in extending the life of the game. I will point to EVE as my evidence.
oneADseven said:
My comments are underlined.
The idea we have been kicking around is that items could be used as a form of currency to do various "things" in the world of Terminus. This would create a demand for all items as they will each have a static value. As a premise I understand this concept. I think this would be best determined by NPC's- i.e. the value the NPC merchant will give you for the item.
Each item would have it's own "currency value" and would be based on it's stats ... or basically, the stronger the item, the more it's worth in this "items being used as currency" system. To me this implies setting a price for all items, said "standard" could be the basis for RMT. As comic books usually sell for "half book" so such determination would be made by the developers, and not by the players. For instance: and FBSS is worth nothing to a mage, why even put a price tag on it for the mage to understand what its "true" worth is.
2) Wherever there are teleport spires, perhaps there is an NPC tied into them that requires some sort of weekly sacrifice to be attuned to them. This could be for the teleportation system as a whole, or tied into specific teleport spires. I see this similar to sacrificing to deities for other reasons, not necesssarily porting for only the wealthy. Let the wealthy sacrifice or tribute their items. Let all items be tributable.
3) Special events. This could be entering a coliseum/arena type event, a fishing tournament, horse racing, etc. Absolutely and why not. Nominal fee does not mean inexpensive- scaled down to levels if needed.
4) Deity sacrifices. This can provide some sort of temporary buff or a "favor" meter with chosen deity. The more you sacrifice, the higher your meter. (2)
5) Disenchanting. Allow players to break down their items and turn them into materials. These can be used for whatever. Makes sense and allows for upward and downward distribution however the "magic" element, like mentoring, will need to be mentored down to prevent abuse if it is crafted down, but the "magic" element remain as is or add a part to a benefit if crafted up,
6) Faction. Allow players to sacrifice items to various tribes as a way to earn faction. if it is similar to red wine in Neriak- that is cool but should take as long. I knew a a high elf that had faction in neriak just through this quest (Adlin?- I called him my best-mage-friend as I remember)
Anyway, just wanted to shoot this idea out to the community. The economy is an extremely important aspect of all MMO's and it's clear that VR wants items leaving the game, hence the deity sacrifices and crafting attunement processes that we are already aware of. But what happens if we expand on this and allow items to be used for so much more? I imagine that the economy would be booming because the value of every item would be worth so much more. If it is intended that there is a necessary economy outside the mechanic in game, i.e. selling to NPC merchants. Otherwise any other economy is considered emergent and player based.The inherent valueof each item wouldn't be tied directly into how much power it provides for your character,I get it, but kinda sounds like price fixing, for the FBSS is worthless to the mage . but rather the opportunities available to them in the game. Anyway, it sounds like there are plenty of other ways to utilize this system, but I would like to ask what everybody what their thoughts are on it?
Thank you for this erudite discussion.
*Edit -- Big thank you to Celevin, Morgnus, and Shucklighter for contributing to this idea.
Hey Manouk,
When it comes to price fixing, it's mostly done as a baseline for different tiers of gear. Since each tier would have a separate demand, all items would be meaningful and the amount of items being sold directly to merchants would decrease. If you think about it, this can help with inflation. Rather than everything being sold to merchants and bringing more money into the game, players would be exchanging existing gold for those items only to sacrifice them for faction, deity favor, dungeon access, etc. I guess I am not 100% sure what you mean about fixed pricing when it comes to the FBSS example. If this system were to be adopted, how would the value of FBSS change for a mage compared to any other class? It's not something that would get sacrificed as it's inherent value is exceptionally higher to most players. The goal here is to provide a means to an end when it comes to removing loot from the game.
Let's say, for example, that there is an uncommon breastplate. It's nothing special really ... just an uncommon item that doesen't have any eye-popping stats. Let's say that the "true value" of this item is incredibly low because there are other breastplates in the game around the same level that have better stats. By allowing players to sacrifice this item for faction, it's "true value" is increased because there will always be a demand for it. It's value is not regulated solely by how much of a power upgrade it can provide to a character because of the extra "sacrifice" value it has relative to treasured gear. In this case, mages now have an interest in buying plate armor, and tanks have an interest in caster wands. All items are now worth more money, and there is less money going around because these items are no longer being sold to a merchant.
Over time, all item tiers will have a baseline value established. The more things you can sacrifice your gear for, the higher the demand for all gear will be. At the end of the day, there will be fluctuation within each tier because there will be plenty of items that people would never sacrifice. These would be considered "premium" items, so to speak. The FBSS would be one such premium item. Using this concept, a player would be able to tailor their FBSS via crafting without the need for it to be soulbound to them. They can use the tailored item for as long as they would like, and if they decide they are willing to sell it in the future, they are free to do so. Upon trading the item to another player, any/all tailoring enchantments would disappear and the new owner would receive the standard FBSS item. I guess what I would like to understand is the true purpose behind The Pantheon Game Feature "Take part in an economy that is largely player driven." What does that mean? My understanding is that the value of items would be dictated by the players rather than NPC's, and if the idea I proposed were to be adopted, that's exactly what would happen.
I remember *many times* being given items when starting fresh somewhere, in multiple games. Often times, experienced players enjoy helping new people, giving out a few upgrades, and tossing some buffs. It's a huge boon for newbies and invigorates their desire to keep playing. I would often do the same when I "grew up" in the world and had excess loots laying around.
Would a system like this push that sense of giving and helpfulness out of the way, to be replaced by gaining advantages from unused loot?
Perhaps there could be a merchant you could give items to in exchange for any of your proposed rewards, but instead of the item poofing, it's then offered to newbies for free (or super cheap) if they're of appropriate class, and can use the item, etc, and then have the item stripped of the possibility of further trade-ins. Perhaps limit the allowable purchases from a vendor such as this to one per day per account or whatever restrictions that seem appropriate.
The player giving out their items no longer has the personal experience in directly handing items to newbies and seeing the joy & thanks in return, but if a system like this were to be considered, it might be a nice alternative to eliminating helping new players altogether in lieu of gaining advantages from item hand-ins.
CelevinMoongleam said:The problem that I have observed on P99 is that the item economy is so over inflated that I often had to resort to giving away good items, just to clean out my inventory. The idea is to strike a balance. If the number of items entering the game is about the same as the number of items leaving the game; prices will be stable. Easier said than done, I know, but I think that getting the item economy right could pay huge dividends in extending the life of the game. I will point to EVE as my evidence.
This is a terrible example though. In live Kunark came out 1 year after classic, and Velious came out 8 months after that. On P1999 Kunark came out 17 months after classic, and Velious came out 4 years and 5 months after Kunark. The item stagnation and farming was going on FAR too long before patches and expansions on P1999.
Iksar said:CelevinMoongleam said:The problem that I have observed on P99 is that the item economy is so over inflated that I often had to resort to giving away good items, just to clean out my inventory. The idea is to strike a balance. If the number of items entering the game is about the same as the number of items leaving the game; prices will be stable. Easier said than done, I know, but I think that getting the item economy right could pay huge dividends in extending the life of the game. I will point to EVE as my evidence.
This is a terrible example though. In live Kunark came out 1 year after classic, and Velious came out 8 months after that. On P1999 Kunark came out 17 months after classic, and Velious came out 4 years and 5 months after Kunark. The item stagnation and farming was going on FAR too long before patches and expansions on P1999.
Yeah, I agree. I don't think P1999 or TLPs are a good example of early EverQuest economy. I don't remember inflation being much of an issue back then, but it was quite a while ago.
Edit: @Manouk, we're talking about turning in equipment for faction, rather than supplies like the red wine in Neriak. The idea isn't to create a bunch of spammable CB Belt/Bonechip/Red Wine-type quests, but to to have maybe like a quartermaster for each faction, and have that NPC accept your armor and/or weapons in exchange for faction gains. Items are being removed from circulation and this makes sense storywise anyway, since you'd be helping to equip whatever faction's guards or army or whatever, and that would make them think more highly of you.
1) Create gatekeepers at various dungeons. Not sure how this could be achieved lore wise but maybe it's feasible. Basically, the gatekeeper requires you to make a sacrifice before you can ever enter their dungeon.
#1 My personal opinion is I do not like this. If there was one dungeon like this for flavor that would be cool.
2) Wherever there are teleport spires, perhaps there is an NPC tied into them that requires some sort of weekly sacrifice to be attuned to them. This could be for the teleportation system as a whole, or tied into specific teleport spires.
#2 My opinion is to do this system for everybody including Wizards and Druids, or do not do it at all and let Druids and Wizards have the power to teleport. If everbody is allowed to teleport then Wizards should have a nice heal given to them and a Spirit of the Wolf type of spell.
3) Special events. This could be entering a coliseum/arena type event, a fishing tournament, horse racing, etc.
#3 This could be fun, if the items needed to enter were specific, then the competition for them would force people to group or compete with each other, and could be as fun and crazy as the event it self. I realize doing it that way would not clean out old equipment but as a separate subject it could be fun.
4) Deity sacrifices. This can provide some sort of temporary buff or a "favor" meter with chosen deity. The more you sacrifice, the higher your meter.
#4 Sounds like it could work, it did okay in EQ2 , I am not sure the Skar would fair well with their God according to lore. I also think sacrificeing a few decent items to a god to gain the ability to use the teleportation spires once, or cast clarity once, or SOW once would clean up some items
5) Disenchanting. Allow players to break down their items and turn them into materials. These can be used for whatever.
#5 This is a common thing and I would expect to see some type of system or special vendor that would allow for this to happen.
6) Faction. Allow players to sacrifice items to various tribes as a way to earn faction.
#6 I think only if a person has already worked up to a "regards you indifferently" stage or better with the faction should this be allowed.
# 7 :) It would be nice if you would gain faction with the race of any newbie under the level of 15 that you gave something decent to. Sneaking into a newbie zone in a KOS area could be kind of fun. It would have to be a dangerous thing to do to make it exciting.
Just my opinion
Iksar said:CelevinMoongleam said:The problem that I have observed on P99 is that the item economy is so over inflated that I often had to resort to giving away good items, just to clean out my inventory. The idea is to strike a balance. If the number of items entering the game is about the same as the number of items leaving the game; prices will be stable. Easier said than done, I know, but I think that getting the item economy right could pay huge dividends in extending the life of the game. I will point to EVE as my evidence.
This is a terrible example though. In live Kunark came out 1 year after classic, and Velious came out 8 months after that. On P1999 Kunark came out 17 months after classic, and Velious came out 4 years and 5 months after Kunark. The item stagnation and farming was going on FAR too long before patches and expansions on P1999.
Why does that make it a terrible example? His example was of p1999 instead of original eq. So...what? does everyone have to base their examples on original eq and learn nothing from any other game/server/time/setting?
Just like you said, his example gives us a clear reason to not want our gear to get overfarmed. It even has something, original eq, to be compared to, so you can point out significant differences like the timeframe between expansions, and try to pinpoint the causes for the overfarmed gear. So, it's really not a terrible example if you think about it.
Skycaster said:
1) Create gatekeepers at various dungeons. Not sure how this could be achieved lore wise but maybe it's feasible. Basically, the gatekeeper requires you to make a sacrifice before you can ever enter their dungeon.
#1 My personal opinion is I do not like this. If there was one dungeon like this for flavor that would be cool.
2) Wherever there are teleport spires, perhaps there is an NPC tied into them that requires some sort of weekly sacrifice to be attuned to them. This could be for the teleportation system as a whole, or tied into specific teleport spires.
#2 My opinion is to do this system for everybody including Wizards and Druids, or do not do it at all and let Druids and Wizards have the power to teleport. If everbody is allowed to teleport then Wizards should have a nice heal given to them and a Spirit of the Wolf type of spell.
3) Special events. This could be entering a coliseum/arena type event, a fishing tournament, horse racing, etc.
#3 This could be fun, if the items needed to enter were specific, then the competition for them would force people to group or compete with each other, and could be as fun and crazy as the event it self. I realize doing it that way would not clean out old equipment but as a separate subject it could be fun.
4) Deity sacrifices. This can provide some sort of temporary buff or a "favor" meter with chosen deity. The more you sacrifice, the higher your meter.
#4 Sounds like it could work, it did okay in EQ2 , I am not sure the Skar would fair well with their God according to lore. I also think sacrificeing a few decent items to a god to gain the ability to use the teleportation spires once, or cast clarity once, or SOW once would clean up some items
5) Disenchanting. Allow players to break down their items and turn them into materials. These can be used for whatever.
#5 This is a common thing and I would expect to see some type of system or special vendor that would allow for this to happen.
6) Faction. Allow players to sacrifice items to various tribes as a way to earn faction.
#6 I think only if a person has already worked up to a "regards you indifferently" stage or better with the faction should this be allowed.
# 7 :) It would be nice if you would gain faction with the race of any newbie under the level of 15 that you gave something decent to. Sneaking into a newbie zone in a KOS area could be kind of fun. It would have to be a dangerous thing to do to make it exciting.
Just my opinion
Great points! I think adding the concept to a single dungeon as you mentioned in #1 would be pretty cool. Agree on #6 as well. Thanks for sharing.
BeaverBiscuit said:Iksar said:CelevinMoongleam said:The problem that I have observed on P99 is that the item economy is so over inflated that I often had to resort to giving away good items, just to clean out my inventory. The idea is to strike a balance. If the number of items entering the game is about the same as the number of items leaving the game; prices will be stable. Easier said than done, I know, but I think that getting the item economy right could pay huge dividends in extending the life of the game. I will point to EVE as my evidence.
This is a terrible example though. In live Kunark came out 1 year after classic, and Velious came out 8 months after that. On P1999 Kunark came out 17 months after classic, and Velious came out 4 years and 5 months after Kunark. The item stagnation and farming was going on FAR too long before patches and expansions on P1999.
Why does that make it a terrible example? His example was of p1999 instead of original eq. So...what? does everyone have to base their examples on original eq and learn nothing from any other game/server/time/setting?
Just like you said, his example gives us a clear reason to not want our gear to get overfarmed. It even has something, original eq, to be compared to, so you can point out significant differences like the timeframe between expansions, and try to pinpoint the causes for problems. So, it's really not terrible if you think about it.
Well, I think it's a bad example because I don't expect to go five years in PRF without new content. If that happens, I'm going to be pretty unhappy, and I think it's safe to say we'll have bigger things to worry about than inflation.
@Skycaster Yes, I agree that you should need a certain status with a faction before you can donate gear for faction gains.
Shucklighter said:
Well, I think it's a bad example because I don't expect to go five years in PRF without new content. If that happens, I'm going to be pretty unhappy, and I think it's safe to say we'll have bigger things to worry about than inflation.
@Skycaster Yes, I agree that you should need a certain status with a faction before you can donate gear for faction gains.
Is that it? or is it that p99 is free and players are less likely to suddenly stop playing while fully geared? Maybe it's that p99 players have years of experience, either their own or that of others who post on websites, to guide them in their farming to be far more efficient? It could even be all 3. or none at all.
Any example that has multiple implications and suggests many options for solutions is not a bad example, IMO
BeaverBiscuit said:Shucklighter said:
Well, I think it's a bad example because I don't expect to go five years in PRF without new content. If that happens, I'm going to be pretty unhappy, and I think it's safe to say we'll have bigger things to worry about than inflation.
@Skycaster Yes, I agree that you should need a certain status with a faction before you can donate gear for faction gains.
Is that it? or is it that p99 is free and players are less likely to suddenly stop playing while fully geared? Maybe it's that p99 players have years of experience, either their own or that of others who post on websites, to guide them in their farming to be far more efficient? It could even be all 3. or none at all.
Any example that has multiple implications and suggests many options for solutions is not a bad example, IMO
It is a bad example relative to Pantheon because it is an emulation of an EQ server that lagged behind any possible normal and healthy game when it came to content updates. If anything it is a good example of how bad the system can be when left stagnant for years on end. I played on the P1999 servers from release until Kunark and the prices were pretty dang stable and healthy up until around the year and half of Kunark when things started taking a noticable dive month by month till eventually even really powerful stuff was dirt cheap a couple years in. The only thing the years of EQ knowledge and experience did was funnel the hardcore p1999 players/guilds to farming the items they knew would be nerfed and for a couple of uber guilds monopolizing raids and the better dungeon drops. The drop rates were unaffected by this knowledge however.
It generally took quite a long while to get even full/near full BiS non-planar gear in EQ, so even if drop rates were even more frequent in Pantheon it would likely be just as time consuming and take just as long in Pantheon because they seem to want everyone to have multiple sets of gear for different things. I don't know what their ultimate plan will be, but whatever it is I hope it doesn't make items BoE/P and I hope you don't feel forced to destroy items either (the buffs are too good/become required for raids, have to sacrifice to access content, and things like that).
Iksar said:BeaverBiscuit said:Shucklighter said:
Well, I think it's a bad example because I don't expect to go five years in PRF without new content. If that happens, I'm going to be pretty unhappy, and I think it's safe to say we'll have bigger things to worry about than inflation.
@Skycaster Yes, I agree that you should need a certain status with a faction before you can donate gear for faction gains.
Is that it? or is it that p99 is free and players are less likely to suddenly stop playing while fully geared? Maybe it's that p99 players have years of experience, either their own or that of others who post on websites, to guide them in their farming to be far more efficient? It could even be all 3. or none at all.
Any example that has multiple implications and suggests many options for solutions is not a bad example, IMO
It is a bad example relative to Pantheon because it is an emulation of an EQ server that lagged behind any possible normal and healthy game when it came to content updates. If anything it is a good example of how bad the system can be when left stagnant for years on end. I played on the P1999 servers from release until Kunark and the prices were pretty dang stable and healthy up until around the year and half of Kunark when things started taking a noticable dive month by month till eventually even really powerful stuff was dirt cheap a couple years in. The only thing the years of EQ knowledge and experience did was funnel the hardcore p1999 players/guilds to farming the items they knew would be nerfed and for a couple of uber guilds monopolizing raids and the better dungeon drops. The drop rates were unaffected by this knowledge however.
Look at that just using his example as a base you have made all sorts of valid points about the over-availability of gear!
BeaverBiscuit said:Look at that just using his example as a base you have made all sorts of valid points about the over-availability of gear!
I think it's pretty common knowledge to not let content stagnate for extreme periods of time and to introduce inticing money sinks or the economy in an MMO is going to tank. Though I'd say P1999 isn't a real MMO, it's the shell of a fantasy gone awry.
But hey, get your jimmies riled up about it anyway. Whatever floats your boat.
Iksar said:BeaverBiscuit said:Look at that just using his example as a base you have made all sorts of valid points about the over-availability of gear!
I think it's pretty common knowledge to not let content stagnate for extreme periods of time and to introduce inticing money sinks or the economy in an MMO is going to tank. Though I'd say P1999 isn't a real MMO, it's the shell of a fantasy gone awry.
But hey, get your jimmies riled up about it anyway. Whatever floats your boat.
=D I'll take it over "terrible"
Faction system, Have various area's per 'faction' that is needing items. Storyline could be stregthening/recycling material for armies, buildings, hungry, poor, new players etc.
Open an offering box to receive donations in the form of items from allies. Can only be opened nearby a Divine 'Structure'. Cannot be opened in town. Something like this could provide temp buff (not game changing). Could be npc/could be implemented into a class/tradeskill feature.
Special events, Dwarven alchemist/enchanter blows up half the Tower. Needs to manufacture/recycle components to rebuild (and a nice beating).
Disenchanting could/would be beneficial to all crafters, and repairs.
If housing is a twinkle in a dev's eye. Could also use that similar idea to the Gatekeepers(portal). Houses need upkeep, construction, etc.
I see good things in this discussion.